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[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, perhaps it was the cool dragon battle in the snowstorm? That looked pretty great, didn't it ;-)?

Well, I wouldn’t characterize a dragon battle in the storm as a WTF moment. So we’ll just have to wait and see. 

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11 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Well, I wouldn’t characterize a dragon battle in the storm as a WTF moment. So we’ll just have to wait and see. 

I was kidding. Perhaps it was Jon and Dany getting together, Cersei hooking up with Euron, or, you know, Jaime killing Cersei - if that happens. After all, these two guys most likely did not figure out that one themselves...

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Posted (edited)

The 3rd WTF moment will be Jon killing Dany IMHO. 

And I don't understand why people still understimate Sansa's potential for greatness and ultimate win in the Game of Thrones, or at least Queen of the North. Last episode made her potential plain, especially with Tyrion as her likely ally (husband?). And as @UnmaskedLurker states, if this happens in the show, then this will also happen in the books, because the arcs of these characters must end at the same place. Denial is not only a river in Egypt, guys!

EDIT: And the loyalty of Jaime, Brienne, the Hound and of course Uberkiller Arya won't hurt her future odds...

Edited by Jô Maltese

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@Lord Varys and @Jô Maltese--

I usually do not use too many "brain cells" trying to unravel what will happen when we will know for sure in less than three weeks. But my gut instinct is to agree with LV that the final WTF moment for D&D very well could be Jaime killing Cersei (which is probably more "shocking" than Stannis killing Shireen, given the nature of the two relationships).

As to Sansa winning it all -- I have a hard time seeing that outcome. The name of Martin's series is A Song of Ice and Fire. IMHO, that means that the "story" is about Jon (being the key merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)) -- or perhaps about Jon and Dany (with Jon merely representing the "dominant ice" aspect of his Stark identity). I just don't see Martin having the story resolve itself with Sansa turning out to be the "main" character in the end. But maybe who takes control is not really that important to Martin, as so she can "win" and still not be considered the "main" character.

Again -- I don't really know and we will all know at least how D&D resolve the issues soon. As to whether Martin has intended to end everything the same way, we may never know (or if we do, it looks like it will be at least another 10 years or so). 

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1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Lord Varys and @Jô Maltese--

I usually do not use too many "brain cells" trying to unravel what will happen when we will know for sure in less than three weeks. But my gut instinct is to agree with LV that the final WTF moment for D&D very well could be Jaime killing Cersei (which is probably more "shocking" than Stannis killing Shireen, given the nature of the two relationships).

As to Sansa winning it all -- I have a hard time seeing that outcome. The name of Martin's series is A Song of Ice and Fire. IMHO, that means that the "story" is about Jon (being the key merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)) -- or perhaps about Jon and Dany (with Jon merely representing the "dominant ice" aspect of his Stark identity). I just don't see Martin having the story resolve itself with Sansa turning out to be the "main" character in the end. But maybe who takes control is not really that important to Martin, as so she can "win" and still not be considered the "main" character.

Again -- I don't really know and we will all know at least how D&D resolve the issues soon. As to whether Martin has intended to end everything the same way, we may never know (or if we do, it looks like it will be at least another 10 years or so). 

Cersei's death has been telegraphed since we got the prophecy in Feast, so it will certainly not be that as a WTF moment, WTF would be if she survives and stays on the IT, but I don't see that either, so the final twist they said related to the endgame is still to come in the next 3 episodes, maybe to do with Euron? or something else.

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5 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

The 3rd WTF moment will be Jon killing Dany IMHO. 

Who knows? In the show this kind of thing could happen. In the books? Not a chance. But I'm curious - why on earth would Jon ever do such a thing? Even if Dany were brutally killing everyone in KL - why should Jon care? Those people are not his people, and if they stand with Cersei they are his enemies, too.

5 hours ago, Jô Maltese said:

And I don't understand why people still understimate Sansa's potential for greatness and ultimate win in the Game of Thrones, or at least Queen of the North. Last episode made her potential plain, especially with Tyrion as her likely ally (husband?). And as @UnmaskedLurker states, if this happens in the show, then this will also happen in the books, because the arcs of these characters must end at the same place. Denial is not only a river in Egypt, guys!

The show will end the way the writers want it to end. They are adapting it. George is irrelevant in all that, has been for years.

Sansa pretty much has no potential whatsoever because she is about irrelevant things that don't matter.

12 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to Sansa winning it all -- I have a hard time seeing that outcome. The name of Martin's series is A Song of Ice and Fire. IMHO, that means that the "story" is about Jon (being the key merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)) -- or perhaps about Jon and Dany (with Jon merely representing the "dominant ice" aspect of his Stark identity). I just don't see Martin having the story resolve itself with Sansa turning out to be the "main" character in the end. But maybe who takes control is not really that important to Martin, as so she can "win" and still not be considered the "main" character.

We saw the song of ice and fire last episode. The ice-and-fire symbolism was all over the place. The snow, the blizzard, the dragons, the burning weapons, the trenches, etc. It is about the fight between the dragons and the Others, the heat of life against the cold of death, etc. That's the heart of it. Anything else is just cosmetics. 

Jon and Dany certainly also embody a merger of ice and fire in their marriage, a much needed reunion between the Starks and Targaryens after the bad blood that separated them in the recent past. But I really see no reason to imagine the song of ice and fire ever referenced the ending of the story, especially not in the political sphere.

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Cersei's death has been telegraphed since we got the prophecy in Feast, so it will certainly not be that as a WTF moment, WTF would be if she survives and stays on the IT, but I don't see that either, so the final twist they said related to the endgame is still to come in the next 3 episodes, maybe to do with Euron? or something else.

Oh, so you think these guys actually read AFfC? Didn't they not know that Samwell Tarly was a POV character during some panel talk?

They included the Maggy thing in season 5 I think, yes? But they left out the ending, didn't they? The tidbit about the valonqar. To figure out that Jaime would be the one to kill Cersei you actually have to recall and be aware that Jaime is actually Cersei's younger brother, too, a very subtle revelation in the books.

Do you think they actually ever caught that?

And if them not seeing Shireen coming is their standard for WTF moments then that standard is actually pretty low. I mean, Stannis possibly sacrificing his own daughter was basically a theory since at least ASoS, possibly even earlier considering that Stannis' insistence to take Edric Storm into his custody was very ominous back in ACoK. It shouldn't have come as a major surprise to anyone intimately familiar with the material - which people adapting it actually should be.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Oh, so you think these guys actually read AFfC? Didn't they not know that Samwell Tarly was a POV character during some panel talk?

They included the Maggy thing in season 5 I think, yes? But they left out the ending, didn't they? The tidbit about the valonqar. To figure out that Jaime would be the one to kill Cersei you actually have to recall and be aware that Jaime is actually Cersei's younger brother, too, a very subtle revelation in the books.

Do you think they actually ever caught that?

And if them not seeing Shireen coming is their standard for WTF moments then that standard is actually pretty low. I mean, Stannis possibly sacrificing his own daughter was basically a theory since at least ASoS, possibly even earlier considering that Stannis' insistence to take Edric Storm into his custody was very ominous back in ACoK. It shouldn't have come as a major surprise to anyone intimately familiar with the material - which people adapting it actually should be.

 Of course they read AFFC and Dance, but years ago, and probably haven't gone to the books since then.  They also had the big meeting with George where he tells them the end, and they put the prophecy in the show, of course they fucked it up because they are hacks,  having already fucked it up when they added the black haired baby, they took out the valonquar so her death will be a 'surprise' but we also know they change their minds, according to the actors, so it is possible that Cersei's death will not come at the hands of Jamie in the show, but I think they will stick to George's outline there.

I was never sure Shireen would be burned, there are all kinds of crazy theories from book readers, the evidence on her death was nothing close to as strong as Jon's parents or the final battle being in the riverlands.  I don't think it will happen the same way either I am very suspicious that Stannis will order it himself.

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49 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

 Of course they read AFFC and Dance, but years ago, and probably haven't gone to the books since then.  They also had the big meeting with George where he tells them the end, and they put the prophecy in the show, of course they fucked it up because they are hacks,  having already fucked it up when they added the black haired baby, they took out the valonquar so her death will be a 'surprise' but we also know they change their minds, according to the actors, so it is possible that Cersei's death will not come at the hands of Jamie in the show, but I think they will stick to George's outline there.

The issue is: Do you actually think they figured out Jaime would kill Cersei on the basis of AFfC? I don't think so, and many people actually think or consider other candidates there, not to mention that it could also be a metaphorical death.

49 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I was never sure Shireen would be burned, there are all kinds of crazy theories from book readers, the evidence on her death was nothing close to as strong as Jon's parents or the final battle being in the riverlands.  I don't think it will happen the same way either I am very suspicious that Stannis will order it himself.

Sure, no. Considering it as a likely possibility. Stannis was never set up as a sympathetic character or one who is able to compromise if he feels he has to do something. And keep in mind that the guy comes across as very, very dark both in ACoK and ASoS - until he shows up at the Wall. Prior to that he is basically dark freak with his court of lunatics with only some light spots in his past and the people clinging to the belief in 'just Stannis', i.e. Davos and Cressen before him.

The man who authorizes the murder of his own brother and then of Cortnay Penrose is certainly better than Tywin, the Freys, or the Boltons and many other thugs, and he would be a stern and overall just king for Westeros, but he is still a very dark person.

And it was always evident that Melisandre is going to get her way in the end. Stannis was never set up as a character we would expect to make the right choice when faced with unpleasant alternatives. Davos saved him from the Edric sacrifice but nobody is going to save Shireen.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue is: Do you actually think they figured out Jaime would kill Cersei on the basis of AFfC? I don't think so, and many people actually think or consider other candidates there, not to mention that it could also be a metaphorical death.

Yes, because it's obvious.  George may have some kind of twist there on little brother, but even a very casual reader is going to get that she has focused on the wrong brother all this time.

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, because it's obvious.  George may have some kind of twist there on little brother, but even a very casual reader is going to get that she has focused on the wrong brother all this time.

Agreed. Once you realize valonqar means 'younger brother' then you realize that while she's obsessed with Tyrion, it would actually turn out to be Jaime (or another character who fits the 'younger brother' part; although personally I still think it will be Jaime).

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22 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, because it's obvious.  George may have some kind of twist there on little brother, but even a very casual reader is going to get that she has focused on the wrong brother all this time.

But you have to know Jaime is her younger brother, right? You don't know she is Tywin's firstborn unless you read everything very closely. And if you don't catch that Tyrion is the only option - or some other younger brother.

I'd say these people did not catch that Jaime was supposed to be Cersei's younger brother, too. I only caught that during a reread, never thought Cersei might be killed by Jaime before that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Who knows? In the show this kind of thing could happen. In the books? Not a chance. But I'm curious - why on earth would Jon ever do such a thing? Even if Dany were brutally killing everyone in KL - why should Jon care? Those people are not his people, and if they stand with Cersei they are his enemies, too.

That is actually quite obvious: Jon is a decent human being and is portrayed that way in the show. It is obvious why he would care if Daenerys where up to kill anyone brutally. You have quite a nihilistic way of world view, don't you :P?

 

30 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, because it's obvious.  George may have some kind of twist there on little brother, but even a very casual reader is going to get that she has focused on the wrong brother all this time

100% agree. GRRM uses a very common- and not a very original way- of telling prophecies: A self fullfilling prophecy. It is (over)used in literature since Homer, the most famous maybe being Shakespeares Macbeth. Everyone who has read the books, comes to the conclusion that Cersei is probably wrong about Tyrion. Alas, it is not sure who the Valonquar is, as you know. There are dozens of book threads about this right in this Forum. 

 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And it was always evident that Melisandre is going to get her way in the end. Stannis was never set up as a character we would expect to make the right choice when faced with unpleasant alternatives. Davos saved him from the Edric sacrifice but nobody is going to save Shireen.

Tell that to the army of Stanis supporters among the book fans, whom I never quite understood :D. Yes, he is strict, and sometimes just. But this is also the guy who killed his own brother and tried to murder his inocent nephew. 

 

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue is: Do you actually think they figured out Jaime would kill Cersei on the basis of AFfC? I don't think so, and many people actually think or consider other candidates there, not to mention that it could also be a metaphorical death.

Yes. Absolutely. I realised it as soon as I have read it the first time. It is not that heard actually, if one has read some literature in his life before (See my post above). D&D have studied literature. Benioff has written a couple of novelas himself. He definitively knows, how an author leads you in the wrong direction. You may not like their show, but these guys are not that dumb. 

Edited by T and A

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Imo it will have to be something involving an overlooked character and whatever happens to them or whatever they do will have a big impact. Jon killing Dany.....I can see how it is a WTF moment but at the same time it don't. It has to be something more.....obscure and unexpected....kinda like what they had Arya do this episode.

Maybe I'm giving this people too much credit lol.

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9 minutes ago, T and A said:

That is actually quite obvious: Jon is a decent human being and is portrayed that way in the show. It is obvious why he would care if Daenerys where up to kill anyone brutally. You have quite a nihilistic way of world view, don't you :P?

Well, if they stuck with Cersei and committed atrocities, etc. they should die, no? I mean, there would be a reason why those people are killed.

9 minutes ago, T and A said:

100% agree. GRRM uses a very common- and not a very original way- of telling prophecies: A self fullfilling prophecy. It is (over)used in literature since Homer, the most famous maybe being Shakespeares Macbeth. Everyone who has read the books, comes to the conclusion that Cersei is probably wrong about Tyrion. Alas, it is not sure who the Valonquar is, as you know. There are dozens of book threads about this right in this Forum. 

Not sure how Cersei trying to ruin Margaery is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. She is neither the younger, more beautiful queen nor is this going to get any younger brother (or hers) to kill her.

In the end, the only two viable candidates that make sense are Tyrion and Jaime. And the former definitely as good motives, especially in the books.

9 minutes ago, T and A said:

Tell that to the army of Stanis supporters among the book fans, whom I never quite understood :D. Yes, he is strict, and sometimes just. But this is also the guy who killed his own brother and tried to murder his inocent nephew. 

Well, he entertained the notion to sacrifice Edric. We don't know what he would have done, but it is pretty likely he would have given in. I think he authorized Renly's murder but that's not clear, either; but he most definitely authorized Ser Cortnay's murder.

9 minutes ago, T and A said:

Yes. Absolutely. I realised it as soon as I have read it the first time. It is not that heard actually, if one has read some literature in his life before (See my post above). D&D have studied literature. Benioff has written a couple of novelas himself. He definitively knows, how an author leads you in the wrong direction. You may not like their show, but these guys are not that dumb. 

Again, you have to know that Jaime is Cersei's younger brother. This is not a category you usually use to categorize or view twins. Never have read anything from Benioff but what I heard about his novels and short stories this is not exactly great literature. I mean, the man himself admitted he doesn't understand how flashbacks work - which isn't exactly a very complicated literature device.

If they didn't see Shireen coming and saw Stannis sacrificing her as a WTF moment then the same qualifies for Jaime killing Cersei, especially if George also gives them the circumstances as to why that happens. Because right now Jaime is still light years away from killing Cersei.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how Cersei trying to ruin Margaery is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. She is neither the younger, more beautiful queen nor is this going to get any younger brother (or hers) to kill her.

Everything she does in ASOIAF is to avoid the prophecy. And everything she does, makes the prophecy happening. She hates Tyrion because of the prophecy. This hate, and fear, ultimately lead her to acuse him of  being Jofreys murder. This leads to Tywin dying. This leads to the the downfall of House Lannister. You get the point. That is the definition of a self-fullfilling prophecy. If she never heard the prophecy, she wouldnt have acted, ergo, things would not happen. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Never have read anything from Benioff but what I heard about his novels and short stories this is not exactly great literature. I mean, the man himself admitted he doesn't understand how flashbacks work - which isn't exactly a very complicated literature device

To have studied literature, does not mean, you are gonna be a good writer. But it means (among other things) you understand literature and can analyse it. Benioff nevers said, he doesn't understand how flashback work, he said he doesn't like flashback in televison or movies. Which is commonly accepted in his area, since flashbacks are the worst tool you can use in this format, to tell the story. If you are not able to show it differently than through flashbacks or exposition, you are a bad script writer. They ended up showing the scene in a flashback version anyway, which I thought was bad, too. 

Edited by T and A

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Just now, T and A said:

Everything she does in ASOIAF is to avoid the prophecy. And everything she does, makes the prophecy happening. She hates Tyrion because of the prophecy. This hate, and fear, ultimately lead her to acuse him of  being Jofreys murder. This leads to Tywin dying. This leads to the the downfall of House Lannister. You get the point. That is the definition of a self-fullfilling prophecy. If she never heard the prophecy, she wouldnt have acted, ergo, things would not happen. 

She hates Tyrion because he is a dwarf who killed her mother and because he threatened her and her children. Up until Joff's murder the prophecy was clearly nothing Cersei took particularly seriously. That only started in AFfC. Only then she talk about the prophecy to Qyburn and then they decided that they would prevent it from coming true.

The prophecy was never about House Lannister or Tywin. In fact, I very much doubt that prophecy-related stuff is going to cause Jaime to eventually kill Cersei - if he does that.

Just now, T and A said:

There are way to many  things wrong in this statement. To have studied literature, does not mean, you are gonna be a good writer. But it means (among other things) you understand literature and can analyse it. Benioff nevers said, he doesn't understand how flashback work, he said he doesn't like flashback in televison or movies. Which is commonly accepted in his area, since flashbacks are the worst tool you can use in this format, to tell the story. If you are not able to show it differently than through flashbacks or exposition, you are a bad script writer. They ended up showing the scene in a flashback version anyway, which I thought was bad, too. 

Well, I've studied literature, too. But that doesn't mean I understand everything in the field or grasp everything in rather complex literature. Again, Shireen shouldn't have surprised them, so the standard there is simply not particularly high.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She hates Tyrion because he is a dwarf who killed her mother and because he threatened her and her children. Up until Joff's murder the prophecy was clearly nothing Cersei took particularly seriously. That only started in AFfC. Only then she talk about the prophecy to Qyburn and then they decided that they would prevent it from coming true.

The prophecy was never about House Lannister or Tywin. In fact, I very much doubt that prophecy-related stuff is going to cause Jaime to eventually kill Cersei - if he does that.

This is simply all wrong. Up until Feast you had no idea what Cersei was thinking, because she was no POV. And I never stated anything about House Lanister per se, I just tried to tell the story very fast in quite a few sentences. The prophecy is about her downfall. But if House Lanister was still that strong as it was under Tywin, Cersei would still be pretty safe. And if you think, Cersei hates Tyrion because he is a dwarf or because he killed her mother, you have stopped reading after ASOS. 

 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I've studied literature, too. But that doesn't mean I understand everything in the field or grasp everything in rather complex literature. Again, Shireen shouldn't have surprised them, so the standard there is simply not particularly high.

Well, I haven't studied Literature, and I imidiately thought it is not Tyrion. Am I genius? No, nearly everyone who has read the books from my Friends, thought that too. Why? Because it is the obvious choice. Simple as that. Then I begun thinking who it could be. And I made a list in my head, including Jamie. Not sure that he will be it, still (I still think it is Euron though). But it is not something that would blew my mind.

Edited by T and A

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4 minutes ago, T and A said:

This is simply all wrong. Up until Feast you had no idea what Cersei was thinking, because she was no POV. And I never stated anything about House Lanister per se, I just tried to tell the story very fast in quite a few sentences. The prophecy is about her downfall. But if House Lanister was still that strong as it was under Tywin, Cersei would still be pretty safe. And if you think, Cersei hates Tyrion because he is a dwarf or because he killed her mother, you have stopped reading after ASOS. 

Cersei despised Tyrion long before she spoke to Maggy - at least if we can trust Oberyn's story. The prophecy is not about her downfall, it is about certain crucial moments in her life - the number of her children, her marriage to Robert, the death of her children, her issues with a younger, more beautiful woman, and a weirdo allusion to her death.

For instance, Cersei not fearing Sansa who definitely qualifies as a younger, more beautiful queen in the making strongly suggests that the prophecy didn't shape Cersei's life up until Joff's murder. Not to mention, you know, her earlier decision to allow Jaime to father her three children rather than Robert. Any person believing the prophecy would have never done that. Once Joff was apparently killed by Tyrion she started to take the prophecy seriously, expecting that Tommen and Myrcella will follow Joff into the grave.

4 minutes ago, T and A said:

Well, I haven't studied Literature, and I imidiately thought it is not Tyrion. Am I genius? No, nearly everyone who has read the books from my Friends, thought that too. Why? Because it is the obvious choice. Simple as that. Then I begun thinking who it could be. And I made a list in my head, including Jamie. Not sure that he will be it, still (I still think it is Euron though). But it is not something that would blew my mind.

Sure, not Tyrion, but figure out/settle on Jaime you really have to think outside the box and actually realize that he is described as Cersei's younger brother. This is a fact in the books, not a theory - unlike most other theories which actually assume 'a younger brother' rather than Cersei's younger brother can be the valonqar. I never saw any reason to even entertain the notion that some other younger brother could be meant.

But subtle authors can and do occasionally go down the obvious road because they know people will expect them to be too subtle, making the obvious thing a greater surprise than the outlandish thing. Which gives credence to the idea that it might be Tyrion after all. Or Tyrion and Jaime together. After all, choking is a rather difficult for a guy lacking a hand.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei despised Tyrion long before she spoke to Maggy - at least if we can trust Oberyn's story. The prophecy is not about her downfall, it is about certain crucial moments in her life - the number of her children, her marriage to Robert, the death of her children, her issues with a younger, more beautiful woman, and a weirdo allusion to her death.

For instance, Cersei not fearing Sansa who definitely qualifies as a younger, more beautiful queen in the making strongly suggests that the prophecy didn't shape Cersei's life up until Joff's murder. Not to mention, you know, her earlier decision to allow Jaime to father her three children rather than Robert. Any person believing the prophecy would have never done that. Once Joff was apparently killed by Tyrion she started to take the prophecy seriously, expecting that Tommen and Myrcella will follow Joff into the grave.

Sure, not Tyrion, but figure out/settle on Jaime you really have to think outside the box and actually realize that he is described as Cersei's younger brother. This is a fact in the books, not a theory - unlike most other theories which actually assume 'a younger brother' rather than Cersei's younger brother can be the valonqar. I never saw any reason to even entertain the notion that some other younger brother could be meant.

But subtle authors can and do occasionally go down the obvious road because they know people will expect them to be too subtle, making the obvious thing a greater surprise than the outlandish thing. Which gives credence to the idea that it might be Tyrion after all. Or Tyrion and Jaime together. After all, choking is a rather difficult for a guy lacking a hand.

All I am trying to say is, that Jamie being a Valonquar is not a "Holy shit moment". And I don't know Benioff and Weiss personally, but knowing that they have read more than one book and watched more than one movie, they wouldn't qualify this moment as a "holy shit" either. The "lover killing his lover" is not a "holy shit" moment since it is used very often in literature and especially movies. Even if they didn't figure it out by themself, once GRRM told them that, they wouldn't think this is outrageous. "Holy shit" Moments until now, where minor twists (especially Hodor, never ever heard that theory). I could see it, being something related to Varys. Maybe we will learn what he heard that night he lost his genitals from the flames. The show included that in two seasons. Or it could be that leak, that I don't want to talk about it here. Although the last one would not be a minor twist. We will see, I guess. 

Edited by T and A

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On 4/30/2019 at 11:35 AM, T and A said:

That is actually quite obvious: Jon is a decent human being and is portrayed that way in the show. It is obvious why he would care if Daenerys where up to kill anyone brutally. You have quite a nihilistic way of world view, don't you :P?

 

In the books Jon is ok with the Halfhand torturing Wildlings just as Dany is ok with 'Questioning sharply' in Meereen.  In the show and books Jon executes people who disobey him. He executed Ollie on the show, same as Dany and the Tarly's. They are both brutal leaders.  If Jon kills Dany for this then he should kill himself too.

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