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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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@Suzanna Stormborn--

While I agree with you (and I doubt that Jon is going to kill Dany), logical consistency does not seem to be a principle that binds D&D. Dramatic action and shock value seem more important to them than inherent coherence in the development of the plot.

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1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

@Suzanna Stormborn--

While I agree with you (and I doubt that Jon is going to kill Dany), logical consistency does not seem to be a principle that binds D&D. Dramatic action and shock value seem more important to them than inherent coherence in the development of the plot.

Well that's certainly true ;)

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At this point I am convinced Jon will kill Dany on the show. I have read a couple of leaks that sounded very plausible about that.  I'm heartbroken about it, and the probable death of another dragon. I am in the mindset of hoping for the best, but expecting the worse.  Hope I am wrong. I will then remain on pins and needles waiting for the books. I like the show, but honestly, it's just a taste to keep me from starving until WoW. I'm actually ok with Dany or Jon dying, but not like that. I want one of them to have a happy ending.

I honestly worry about dying without ever getting to read the finished product. That would suck.

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Well Fuck.

Obviously Dany is power-crazed and must be killed on the show. 7 seasons of showing how she only cares about her people and freeing slaves and keeping the weak and hungry safe.......and 7 seasons of raising her dragons--the miracle that dragons are--learning how to ride and breathe fire and use them as WMD-------ALL FOR NOTHING. the Dragons are worthless and just die so easily, Dany is the mad-king's daughter even though they've been saying she isn't all this time and now we have to kill her. Fucking great. She no longer cares about anyone and anything except sitting on the throne, sure ok, makes sense. GREAT storytelling:rolleyes:

 

And now I'm very upset, not because I think Jon will kill her for being a power-hungry loon in the books--but because if D&D are following broad-strokes it means that Dany fucking dies in the end. Probably in the books it will be the lightbringer AA prophecy with Jon killing her. but D&D have basically just confirmed to me that she dies.

 

So there goes 10 years of fantasy-obsession, ruined by 2 multi-millionaire hacks who should never work again.

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Well Fuck.

Obviously Dany is power-crazed and must be killed on the show. 7 seasons of showing how she only cares about her people and freeing slaves and keeping the weak and hungry safe.......and 7 seasons of raising her dragons--the miracle that dragons are--learning how to ride and breathe fire and use them as WMD-------ALL FOR NOTHING. the Dragons are worthless and just die so easily, Dany is the mad-king's daughter even though they've been saying she isn't all this time and now we have to kill her. Fucking great. She no longer cares about anyone and anything except sitting on the throne, sure ok, makes sense. GREAT storytelling:rolleyes:

 

And now I'm very upset, not because I think Jon will kill her for being a power-hungry loon in the books--but because if D&D are following broad-strokes it means that Dany fucking dies in the end. Probably in the books it will be the lightbringer AA prophecy with Jon killing her. but D&D have basically just confirmed to me that she dies.

 

So there goes 10 years of fantasy-obsession, ruined by 2 multi-millionaire hacks who should never work again.

I haven't been a Dany fan for a long time, but I always thought the idea of her going mad was wish fulfillment of people like me who didn't like her.  GRRM has always talked about as a hero who is as ruthless as she needs to be, so I'm surprised they're going to have her go mad and then be killed, assuming the leaks and 'foreshadowing' are accurate.  I could see that this could be turned into a hugely tragic arc for her where she continues to harden and becomes paranoid once the Westeros invasion doesn't go as she envisioned, however, this would take an entire book to make it work, unless she begins to go bad in Winds...so, another nail in the coffin of GRRM ever finishing, he simply set himself too complex of a task and wasted too much time.

But, my condolences.

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Oh, Dany might die in the books, but never in that fashion or this scenario. That would not make sense.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, Dany might die in the books, but never in that fashion or this scenario. That would not make sense.

Yes I feel like they confirmed her death.  I KNOW it won't be anything like this utter stupidity they have laid out.....

Who knows, maybe he will change his mind and let her and Jon live after the HBO ending bombs so hard.

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There is a slight chance this is misdirection and she will have some kind of epiphany that erases her recent turn to madness and doesn't die.  But, between the show's hard turn against her, making everyone in the show hate her for not much reason, plus the spoiler leaks that have her dying and Jon going back to the far North....I'd say we're about 80% she dies, 20% there is a final reverse reverse. 

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Posted (edited)

Sorry, but as a Jon Snow fan in the books I absolutely hate Joan Snow in the Show. What a loser. Why does anyone follow him? Makes no sense.

And on another note, I burst out laughing at D&D’s latest loss of perspective in their quest for fan service.

When news of Euron’s ambush arrives at Winterfell Jaime approaches and asks Sansa and Brienne what has happened. They then proceed to break the grave news to him by listing the strategically important events that had been summarized in the Raven carried note:

1. Euron ambushed the fleet

2. Rhaegal slain

3. Many ships destroyed

and, hilariously, 4: Missandei the interpreter taken.

I mean, come on. Jaime, Brienne and Sansa barely know Missandei, and if they even remember her name, she is the slave girl serving as interpreter for Daeneys. And yet that counts as so important a development that it is carried by Raven to the North, where no one even knows her?

Get your heads out of your arses, D&D. Enough with the fan service. Try to think like the people in the setting would.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Posted (edited)

My wife who has not read the books always asks me what Jon is really supposed to look like since I hate the choice of “Romance Novel cover boy” Kit Harrington so much. And my best answer is usually that book Jon reminds one of a Christian Bale type of serious, even morose but very intense and determined character. Not the soft-lipped, mopey, sad faced weakling from the Show.

”She is too strong for him and will bend him to her will”. Haha. Says it all.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

My wife who has not read the books always asks me what Jon is really supposed to look like since I hate the choice of “Romance Novel cover boy” Kit Harrington so much. And my best answer is usually that book Jon reminds one of a Christian Bale type of serious, even morose but very intense and determined character. Not the soft-lipped, mopey, sad faced weakling from the Show.

”She is too strong for him and will bend him to her will”. Haha. Says it all.

Why is that a negative anyway? Because she's a 'she'? Any other reason?

I mean obviously she is too dumb to remember that the Greyjoys have ships in the water so there's that....

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9 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Why is that a negative anyway? Because she's a 'she'? Any other reason?

I mean obviously she is too dumb to remember that the Greyjoys have ships in the water so there's that....

That line was obviously inserted by the Showrunners to preemtively counter any accusations of sexism that might arise from them suggesting Jon is a better ruler than Dany. So they just had to spell it out that no, Dany is MUCH too strong for Jon. It’s just that he is the better choice as ruler for some other unknown reason. They are so obvious and clumsy in their thought processes, these two simpletons.

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

There is a slight chance this is misdirection and she will have some kind of epiphany that erases her recent turn to madness and doesn't die.  But, between the show's hard turn against her, making everyone in the show hate her for not much reason, plus the spoiler leaks that have her dying and Jon going back to the far North....I'd say we're about 80% she dies, 20% there is a final reverse reverse. 

For all we know she could die a couple of times. It is not that dying is a final thing in that show, is it? You can come back for arbitrary and pointless reasons, can't you?

I've read some of the spoiler stuff, but I really can't make sense of that within the framework of the story that's supposed to be told. We cannot possibly believe George would have his characters give a damn about the population of KL after they were just abandoned by them during the fight against the Others, can we? Not to mention that nobody at this point has ever played 'the smallfolk, the smallfolk, what about the smallfolk' card.

Even more so, the Kingslanders in the books worship the Targaryens. They would never oppose Dany if Cersei/Euron were holding the city. They would rebel and do everything in their power to open the gates.

Now, if it were Aegon in the Red Keep and Dany outside things could go similar to the way they go in the show - which is why I actually pictured the Tyrion/Qyburn scene as a Tyrion/Haldon scene (and that could be very powerful!) - but who on earth is actually going to believe that Aegon is sort of the final boss, the guy in control of KL after the Others have been defeated?

This Second Dance thing is going to happen before the Others are defeated, not afterwards. Which actually indicates to me that the show messed up the chronology of events. It is 'Game of Thrones', so the game of thrones is the grand finale, not the fight against the Others. That meant that they resolved the supernatural threat first and actually moved crucial main character deaths from the proper supernatural finale (if Dany and/or Jon die in the books it will be during the process of the fight against the Others, considering all the prophecy stuff we get in the books) to this mundane and pointless 'game of thrones finale'.

I certainly could see Dany doing whatever it takes to deal with Aegon, Euron, Cersei, etc. before they deal with the Others - and I also can see some sort of cleanup campaign if the War for the Dawn does indeed prevent the good guys from putting down all the bad guys - but I most definitely can't see them all being hellbent to deal with whoever holds KL in the end in any kind of mad way. That's just preposterous.

In addition, it is quite clear that the entire Jon/Dany rivalry thing is just nonsensical fake tension. They would *never* have this kind of conflict in a realistic setting. One would ask for the other's hand in marriage - it is actually ridiculous that no one did. After all, why should Jon Snow be happy with his status as Dany's unofficial paramour? This is clearly them shoehorning parts of the Aegon plot into the Jon-Dany relationship. They took parts of what George has planned for Dany and Jon - which is a magical Others-related plot - and then inserted parts from the Aegon-Dany Second Dance political plot. This was evident from the moment it came out that Jon is actually 'Aegon Targaryen' and everything is, in truth, about his claim rather than the prophecy stuff.

If they really go down the path to have Jon kill 'Mad Dany' they will really completely butcher the entire story there. Because even if Jon kills Dany in the books it will never be over some dead Kingslanders or the burning of the Targaryen capital. But, honestly, I cannot possibly see Jon killing Dany in the books under any circumstances. I cannot wrap my head around that one. I can see either or both of them sacrifice themselves for their people and mankind, but I cannot see some stupid murder taking place there.

Especially not in this kind of stupid scenario. There are countless other ways to resolve this in a less bloody fashion. And the actual book characters would figure those out.

Which, in the end, indicates that these guys botched the ending, too. GoT is not even remotely going to end the book way aside from, perhaps, very general aspects like 'the Others are going to be defeated'.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/2/2019 at 12:32 PM, TNTW said:

At this point I am convinced Jon will kill Dany on the show. I have read a couple of leaks that sounded very plausible about that.  I'm heartbroken about it, and the probable death of another dragon. I am in the mindset of hoping for the best, but expecting the worse.  Hope I am wrong. I will then remain on pins and needles waiting for the books. I like the show, but honestly, it's just a taste to keep me from starving until WoW. I'm actually ok with Dany or Jon dying, but not like that. I want one of them to have a happy ending.

I honestly worry about dying without ever getting to read the finished product. That would suck.

I have not issues that Jon Snow and Daenerys kill each, hell, I would prefer that Daenerys let Drogon eat Jon Snow, is the fate that he deserves. Funny that everyone is pretending that all this is not because a Fan Theory that was very popular in this site, and when that was shatter to the ground now everyone is complaining like little children.

Edited by Keyser94

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3 minutes ago, Keyser94 said:

I have issues that Jon Snow and Daenerys kill each, hell, I would prefer that Daenerys let Drogon eat Jon Snow, is the fate that he deserves. Funny that everyone is pretending that all this is not because a Fan Theory that was very popular in this site, and when that was shatter to the ground now everyone is complaining like little children.

I wasn't aware of that. I keep going back and forth. Have read some stuff now that convinces me this may happen, but far from certain.

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7 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Obviously Dany is power-crazed and must be killed on the show. ....... GREAT storytelling:rolleyes:

 

If Dany's death is the 3rd holy shit moment, then we have to get more creative than Jon killing her.  Think GreyWorm.  He has followed her, supported her, and gave her his allegiance.  Then the woman he loves is killed under Dany's watch.  He turns insane and kills her by crucifixion. That would be surprising, and not logical at all.

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Returning to Cersei's death as the Holy Shit moment, IMHO it was always going to be Jaime or Tyrion who killed her. I always knew Jaime was the younger brother, but I have also seen discussions that argue that High Valyrian does not account for gender.  So Little Brother could be Arya.  It's just that I do not think Cersei's death is the Holy Shit moment but rather be a moment of relief for us viewers who are sick of her.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Jon killing Dany for reasons a bit like those that seem to be being set up in the show is impossible. Indeed, if the show does go down this route, I would have to consider it likely to occur in the books. We've always been told that the show would have the same ending as the books. Now, I think this is actually impossible and just a wild exaggeration from the showrunners and the author but if there is any truth whatsoever in the idea the endings will be the same then I simply don't see how you can change the relationship of the two main characters at the end. If Dany's quest for the Iron Throne ultimately fails because Jon kills her that has to go in the show - otherwise the ending can't be held to be the same in any sense at all. 

We shouldn't buy the idea that this makes no sense - although of course it has been set up poorly on the show. If Dany does commit atrocities during her battle with Aegon, and maybe her conquest of parts of Essos, such as Volantis, people may view her as unfit to be Queen. Her excesses could be tolerated during the Battle for the Dawn but when it is over the reveal about Jon's parentage would serve to create a conflict between Jon and Dany, resulting in her death. This would not necessarily be solved by marriage as it would be Dany's own inclinations and past actions that inspire people to move against her. In that context she would know if she assented to marriage with Jon it would be to have her power stripped away.

Edited by Chaircat Meow

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I think it was a mistake to make Dany and Jon a romantic pairing, I'm not sure this happens in the books, but for the show, an uneasy alliance between the two, with their advisors being suspicious of each other would be much easier to see that fall apart and end with her death than OMG TRUE LOVE, and it doesn't even last for half a season, especially if the leaks that he kills her are true, but I still find that is far fetched, seemingly though she will probably die by whomever's hand.

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22 minutes ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

I don't think Jon killing Dany for reasons a bit like those that seem to be being set up in the show is impossible. Indeed, if the show does go down this route, I would have to consider it likely to occur in the books. We've always been told that the show would have the same sending as the books. Now, I think this is actually impossible and just a wild exaggeration from the showrunners and the author but if there is any truth whatsoever in the idea the endings will be the same then I simply don't see how you can change the relationship of the two main characters at the end. If Dany's quest for the Iron Throne ultimately fails because Jon kills her that has to go in the show - otherwise the ending can't be held to be the same in any sense at all. 

We shouldn't buy the idea that this makes no sense - although of course it has been set up poorly on the show. If Dany does commit atrocities during her battle with Aegon, and maybe her conquest of parts of Essos, such as Volantis, people may view her as unfit to be Queen. Her excesses could be tolerated during the Battle for the Dawn but when it is over the reveal about Jon's parentage would serve to create a conflict between Jon and Dany, resulting in her death. This would not necessarily be solved by marriage as it would be Dany's own inclinations and past actions that inspire people to move against her. In that context she would know if she assented to marriage with Jon it would be to have her power stripped away.

You are assuming this like we are playing with the old rules, but since the Episode 3, the producers actually show that they had guts, something that I never trough that I would see because they have been doing fanservices galore ever since the first episode of the Sixth Season, but now that is out, drown into the toilet, everything is possible, happy endings no more.

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