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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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On 7/19/2017 at 9:33 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

MY AJT prediction for the show; 

Varys is there to help Tyrion learn about his mothers affair and coerce him into trying to ride Viserion, whom Tyrion will discover likes him very much and is willing to let him ride.

 

AT SOME POINT on the show, Dany will bring up the subject of needing some more Targaryens to ride her other 2 dragons, I mean it HAS to come up eventually!!

I have come round to the hateful idea that Tyrion is a Targ, but with the leaks about the dragons, I think that the dragon having three heads may not mean that there are going to be 3 dragon riders, in fact, maybe nobody but Dany is going to ride a dragon.  

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There's some interesting framing in the final shot of S7E1: 

http://i.imgur.com/WGj5lKL.jpg

The pillars in the background form three archways. Daenerys occupies the center space, and Tyrion the right, but the left side is noticeably blank, as if a third person is needed to complete the trio ... Jon Snow and the three heads of the dragon, anyone? That is, after all, the same room where Aegon and his sisters planned their conquest of Westeros.

Credit to /u/Free_Apples for the observation: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6nri3t/everything_did_anyone_else_get_the_feeling/

Edited by Shmedricko

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On 7/21/2017 at 1:47 PM, Jo Maltese said:

 

Have you noticed - of course you have :rolleyes:, Tyrion's fascination with the dragon sculpture on the wall in the final scene? :P

Yes!!!!! and Epsiode 2!! The first 15 minutes convo's were awesome! stuck to the books (for the most part).  I do find it weird that literally no one has mentioned that they may need 2 more riders.

On 7/21/2017 at 1:53 PM, Cas Stark said:

I have come round to the hateful idea that Tyrion is a Targ, but with the leaks about the dragons, I think that the dragon having three heads may not mean that there are going to be 3 dragon riders, in fact, maybe nobody but Dany is going to ride a dragon.  

You could be right about this, given that it has not been brought up at all yet.

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On 7/26/2017 at 9:51 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes!!!!! and Epsiode 2!! The first 15 minutes convo's were awesome! stuck to the books (for the most part).  I do find it weird that literally no one has mentioned that they may need 2 more riders.

You could be right about this, given that it has not been brought up at all yet.

Hey SS--

Two points I would like to make.

First is that in the last episode, they made a point of having Sansa ask Jon about the line in the letter from Tyrion in which he states that a dwarf is always a bastard in his father's eyes. Seems like foreshadowing to me. Why else bother to call out that line?

Second is that I think there will be three dragon riders -- but only two dragons to ride. How can that be? Jon will find out probably in the first episode of season 8 that he is really Rhaegar's son. I think he will ride Rhaegal. So there we have two of the dragon/dragon rider combinations that have been expected for years. My theory (well, really more of speculation), however, since I found out about the likely fate of Viserion (and it seems meaningful to me that Viserion and not either of the other two is the dragon speculated to die) is that Dany dies in battle probably around episode 4 or 5 of the last season and as a desperation move, Tyrion jumps on Dragon's back and finds he can bond with the dragon. And then later figures out his true heritage. 

When we consider how GRRM structures a story -- simply having Dany, Jon and Tyrion each bond with a single dragon a piece and train for the war and go into battle as the three-headed dragon re-born seems unlikely. GRRM is not just going to have them be a simple variation of Aegon and his sisters (or Dany and her brother/nephew). We readers often come up with theories expecting something that strictly parallel because we have nothing else to go on. But things have to be much more difficult and complicated this time -- the key is that in the end, all three would be necessary for the victory.

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It's a possibility. Spring it as a last-minute twist/surprise.

Alternatively, only Dany (and he NK?) will ride a dragon on the show, maybe contrary to the books. The 3-headed dragon has not been mentioned on the show, IIRC.

Dany and Jon are the expected and logical ending. However, the former may be barren (that's still unclear - maybe Jon could work a miracle) and the latter would logically be some kind of firewight (in the books, at least). I still doubt if this couple could have children. If not, it's likely not the ultimate endgame. If yes, seems we have the ultimate king/queen.

 

 

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20 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Hey SS--

Two points I would like to make.

First is that in the last episode, they made a point of having Sansa ask Jon about the line in the letter from Tyrion in which he states that a dwarf is always a bastard in his father's eyes. Seems like foreshadowing to me. Why else bother to call out that line?

Second is that I think there will be three dragon riders -- but only two dragons to ride. How can that be? Jon will find out probably in the first episode of season 8 that he is really Rhaegar's son. I think he will ride Rhaegal. So there we have two of the dragon/dragon rider combinations that have been expected for years. My theory (well, really more of speculation), however, since I found out about the likely fate of Viserion (and it seems meaningful to me that Viserion and not either of the other two is the dragon speculated to die) is that Dany dies in battle probably around episode 4 or 5 of the last season and as a desperation move, Tyrion jumps on Dragon's back and finds he can bond with the dragon. And then later figures out his true heritage. 

When we consider how GRRM structures a story -- simply having Dany, Jon and Tyrion each bond with a single dragon a piece and train for the war and go into battle as the three-headed dragon re-born seems unlikely. GRRM is not just going to have them be a simple variation of Aegon and his sisters (or Dany and her brother/nephew). We readers often come up with theories expecting something that strictly parallel because we have nothing else to go on. But things have to be much more difficult and complicated this time -- the key is that in the end, all three would be necessary for the victory.

While I sadly think that tyrion will turn out to be a secret targ, I suspect that line was more about the 'call back' to season 1...just as they did the IMO dumb 'call back' with Arya and Nymeria saying that isn't you.  

I am more and more leaning that there will be only Dany riding the dragon, but maybe 2 dragons, assuming that the NK is getting a dragon in the books as well, which is probably accurate.  Howsever, I believe all the dragons and all the direwolves are going to die in the books....of course that will always be an academic conclusion since the author does not appear capable of finishing the series.....but based on the show, he's going to kill Summer and probably Shaggy Dog in Winds...and maybe Viscerion as well.

I'm sad that we have the foreshadowing on the show of Varys dying, I was hoping he would survive the series.

No idea how the Dany/Jon hook up will play in the books except that it appears that Jon will probably die again as I can't see the two of them alive together at the end of the books.  And since IMO Jon is a far superior leader to Dany, it follows that the author will kill him and not her, LOL will reward her and not him, as he has done throughout the series.

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On 19. 7. 2017 at 3:03 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think they will, I think the whole saga is about restoring Targaryens and their dragons to the throne in time to defeat the white walkers and the long night.

The whole saga is about seeing these characters evolve, magic being brought backand have a final dance. Targaryen restoration is very much in he cards but you don't need all three of them Jon, Dany and their child presumably. Their child already secures it.

On 19. 7. 2017 at 3:33 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

MY AJT prediction for the show; 

Varys is there to help Tyrion learn about his mothers affair and coerce him into trying to ride Viserion, whom Tyrion will discover likes him very much and is willing to let him ride.

 

AT SOME POINT on the show, Dany will bring up the subject of needing some more Targaryens to ride her other 2 dragons, I mean it HAS to come up eventually!!

It's gonna go differently but not gonna spoil things for you.

On 27. 7. 2017 at 8:24 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

Hey SS--

Two points I would like to make.

First is that in the last episode, they made a point of having Sansa ask Jon about the line in the letter from Tyrion in which he states that a dwarf is always a bastard in his father's eyes. Seems like foreshadowing to me. Why else bother to call out that line?

To prove to Jon that it is Tyrion and not some trap.

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Second is that I think there will be three dragon riders -- but only two dragons to ride. How can that be? Jon will find out probably in the first episode of season 8 that he is really Rhaegar's son. I think he will ride Rhaegal. So there we have two of the dragon/dragon rider combinations that have been expected for years. My theory (well, really more of speculation), however, since I found out about the likely fate of Viserion (and it seems meaningful to me that Viserion and not either of the other two is the dragon speculated to die) is that Dany dies in battle probably around episode 4 or 5 of the last season and as a desperation move, Tyrion jumps on Dragon's back and finds he can bond with the dragon. And then later figures out his true heritage. 

 

So he jumps on the dragon and finds out he's a Targ? What's the purpose he's not gonna be a king, one of Jon or Dany will make it alive and if they have a child. Riding a dragon? Call it unlikely.

Viserion could be callback to Viserys and not Tyrion.

Quote

When we consider how GRRM structures a story -- simply having Dany, Jon and Tyrion each bond with a single dragon a piece and train for the war and go into battle as the three-headed dragon re-born seems unlikely. GRRM is not just going to have them be a simple variation of Aegon and his sisters (or Dany and her brother/nephew). We readers often come up with theories expecting something that strictly parallel because we have nothing else to go on. But things have to be much more difficult and complicated this time -- the key is that in the end, all three would be necessary for the victory.

This is D&D version and not GRRM. If they think it's not necesary for the plot, then not gonna happen. Unless bothJon and Dany dies and there is no child.

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Having reading Friki spoilers as a person who saw episodes or someone he knows saw it. Tyrion might very well be a secret Tragaryen. It's his impression but question how to prove it and what is the point? Dragon bonds only with a one rider, then only if that rider dies he can bond with another. Sitting on the throne, that would require both Dany and Jon to die, not to have a child. There are most likely no papers to prove unlike with Jon and bonding with a dragon is unlikely.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Having reading Friki spoilers as a person who saw episodes or someone he knows saw it. Tyrion might very well be a secret Tragaryen. It's his impression but question how to prove it and what is the point? Dragon bonds only with a one rider, then only if that rider dies he can bond with another. Sitting on the throne, that would require both Dany and Jon to die, not to have a child. There are most likely no papers to prove unlike with Jon and bonding with a dragon is unlikely.

I'm not sure what the point would be of making Tyrion a Targ given that we're already down one dragon by the end of S7, especially if Dany and Jon are going to have a child together as seems so obviously telegraphed by the Season 7 spoilers we have. Most of the thinking in book reader circles about Tyrion being a Targ is based on the assumptions that 1) Tyrion will ride a dragon and 2) you need dragon blood to ride a dragon. Even if #2 is correct--and I think this is debatable due to the whole Nettles/Sheepstealer thing--if #1 goes away because one dragon is taken out of the picture, then the whole reason for Tyrion to be a Targ in the first place goes away as well.

The only other plot reason for Tyrion being a Targ that I've seen is that Tyrion is floated as a possible backup king in case Jon and Dany die or replace the NK or whatever, but given that Cersei takes the throne without any Targ blood whatsoever, there's certainly precedent for a Lannister to sit the throne, no Targ blood needed. The show hasn't really done anything to set Tyrion up as a future king, though--it's clearly down to Jon and/or Dany at this point, in my opinion--so I doubt that Tyrion as endgame king is a likely outcome.

 

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I'm sad that we have the foreshadowing on the show of Varys dying, I was hoping he would survive the series.

Book Varys is doomed thanks to his alignment with Aegon (and Aegon being doomed), so it makes sense that TV Varys would be doomed as well.

Edited by Newstar

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1 hour ago, Newstar said:

I'm not sure what the point would be of making Tyrion a Targ given that we're already down one dragon by the end of S7, especially if Dany and Jon are going to have a child together as seems so obviously telegraphed by the Season 7 spoilers we have. Most of the thinking in book reader circles about Tyrion being a Targ is based on the assumptions that 1) Tyrion will ride a dragon and 2) you need dragon blood to ride a dragon. Even if #2 is correct--and I think this is debatable due to the whole Nettles/Sheepstealer thing--if #1 goes away because one dragon is taken out of the picture, then the whole reason for Tyrion to be a Targ in the first place goes away as well.

The only other plot reason for Tyrion being a Targ that I've seen is that Tyrion is floated as a possible backup king in case Jon and Dany die or replace the NK or whatever, but given that Cersei takes the throne without any Targ blood whatsoever, there's certainly precedent for a Lannister to sit the throne, no Targ blood needed. The show hasn't really done anything to set Tyrion up as a future king, though--it's clearly down to Jon and/or Dany at this point, in my opinion--so I doubt that Tyrion as endgame king is a likely outcome.

 

Book Varys is doomed thanks to his alignment with Aegon (and Aegon being doomed), so it makes sense that TV Varys would be doomed as well.

There are a lot of things in the book and the show that don't have much of a point, so Tyrion as a secret Targ could exist just because, or to erase the stain of kinslaying from Tyrion, or because Tyrion will be the founder of the new Targ dynasty...this would be hard to take....but who knows, it will be really weird if Jon the zombie were able to father children....I can't see that happening.  

I have come to seriously think that nobody is riding a dragon except Dany, the dragon may have three heads for whatever reason, but the three heads may not be dragon riders and the 3/3 was just to throw the audience off.

Who isn't doomed at this point?  Tyrion and Sam?  Everyone else is up for grabs, but certainly either Dany or Jon will also live, but I doubt both will.

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13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There are a lot of things in the book and the show that don't have much of a point, so Tyrion as a secret Targ could exist just because, or to erase the stain of kinslaying from Tyrion, or because Tyrion will be the founder of the new Targ dynasty

I don't think GRRM would eliminate Jon's status as the only secret Targ main character without good reason. There would have to be a point to it.

If anyone's going to be the founder of a new Targ dynasty, it will be Jon and Dany. Besides, founding a dynasty involves having kids, something Tyrion's never been interested in. It also involves having legitimate children, and Tyrion's going to have trouble finding a wife for obvious reasons (with his marriage to Sansa being done away with in the show).

 

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...this would be hard to take....but who knows, it will be really weird if Jon the zombie were able to father children....I can't see that happening.

Eh, Tyrion founding a dynasty is far weirder to me than Jon having an improbable magical baby with the infertile Dany. 

 

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I have come to seriously think that nobody is riding a dragon except Dany, the dragon may have three heads for whatever reason, but the three heads may not be dragon riders and the 3/3 was just to throw the audience off.

I'm wondering if Jon will ride Drogon and Tyrion will ride Rhaegal after Dany's death. Apparently, Drogon responds positively to Jon when they meet. Rhaegal, despite being named for Jon's father, might work for Tyrion, I guess: green like Tyrion's eye, e.g.

 

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Who isn't doomed at this point?  Tyrion and Sam?  

Bran and Arya are safe, I think.

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Bran is safe, true. Arya, I don't know, she's my favorite character, so I just steel myself for her death, since I don't think he will let the rest of the Starks live, one more at least is going down.

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7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Bran is safe, true. Arya, I don't know, she's my favorite character, so I just steel myself for her death, since I don't think he will let the rest of the Starks live, one more at least is going down.

Arya's his fave Stark. If another Stark has to die, it won't be her. 

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I will not quote you all (above), but your reasonings seem to be biased by your acceptance that Dany and Jon are the main protagonists of the story (the Song). Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding have taught me not to take anything for granted in GRRM's storyline.

A song of Ice and Fire... Jon is the obvious answer... Too obvious IMHO (since Book / Season 1)! And he is dead already. Dany, well, she is no Ice, just Fire... And Blood. Jon is the PtwP ("Promise me, Ned") and I think Dany is his Nissa Nissa: in the TV series, it looks like Lightbringer will be forged thanks to her support (the Dragonglass in Dragonstone, the Dragonfire from her dragons). Therefore Dany is doomed - the Forging of Lightbringer can only kill her (Jon is the betrayal for love). So they are both doomed, but they will be sung forever as the Long Night 2.0 saviours (IIRC Bron said something about the merits of becoming a song vs surviving...). Dany and Jon, the Heroes of the Song.

I think we saw what it takes to survive through Hot Pie in S7 episode 2: just don't trust anyone, forget honour or pride... And focus on doing what you are really good at - without magic (in particular neither direwolves or dragons). Arya has survived (so far) by leaving her direwolf. Dany was a survivor when she was weak and dragonless, now she has a huge army and 3 dragons... Look at Bronn or the Hound or Brienne. Or Podrick, or Gendry. Or Samwell Tarly. Look at Tyrion (Targ and Lannister) and Sansa (Stark): No legitimacy, no Dragon, no Direwolf, only a nightmare of a life so far, yet the true leaders during the Nera Battle, yet husband and wife, yet looking like true "second Hand" leaders in the battles to come. If Tyrion is indeed half-Targ, then Tyrion and Sansa do make sense in a Song of Ice and Fire. A sweet and sour ending. Sansa and Tyrion, The Rulers in the end. Thanks to the Heroes' sacrifice.

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I also think that back-up king to continue the Targ dynasty (in the event that Jon and Dany would be, for any reason be it death or being barren or whatever, unable to have children) is the most likely reason for Tyrion to turn out to be half-Targ, if that is the case.

I suspect that Tyrion will be a dragonrider in the books, even if he is not in the show (maybe Jon won't ride a dragon in the show, either, and it will be only Dany). But if he is king in the end in the books, then the showrunners wouldn't change this outcome so that part would have to remain in. Could be the third shocking moment, at the very end, that D&D talked about. 

One thing from the books that stood out for me was "the life of four kings" by grand maester Kaeth. Tyrion was a fan of Viserys II, who was apparently doing the actual ruling as hand for much of the long rules of his siblings (like Baelor the blessed) and was himself king for only a short time. Oberyn mocked him and Tyrion defended him. This might be a bit of foreshadowing. On a similar note, there was the infamous turtle in AFFC, "heralding the birth of kings". And most of us suspect (f)Aegon isn't going to make it to be king, or at least not long and successful enough to warrant such a herald. Is this the author speaking to the audience? 

Granted, all this is only true if Jon+Dany don't make it to the end (with a heir on the way) anyway. If they do, a reason to make Tyrion a Targ seems to be missing, unless he does somehow ride Drogon or Rhaegal in S8 and makes a difference that way. 

The marriage between Sansa and Tyrion seems to be over on the show, but if Tyrion does end up being Dany's heir there don't seem to be any suitable wedding candidates left on the show (save maybe Asha). He may simply remarry Sansa in that case (if the original one is deemed to be null and void). 

On the other hand, the main reason for the difficulty Sansa has to get the marriage annulled in the books may be her Vale plot with Harry the Heir, which has been dumped on the show. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

I will not quote you all (above), but your reasonings seem to be biased by your acceptance that Dany and Jon are the main protagonists of the story (the Song). Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding have taught me not to take anything for granted in GRRM's storyline. (...)

I think GRRM has done too good a job at fooling the audience into thinking no one's safe. In the old 1993 outline, he actually says that while he wishes to create the impression that no one's safe, five characters, including Jon and Dany, will make it through all three (as then planned) volumes.

 

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Tyrion and Sansa do make sense in a Song of Ice and Fire. A sweet and sour ending. Sansa and Tyrion, The Rulers in the end. 

The writers wouldn't have ended the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to make way for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay if they intended Sansa and Tyrion to end up together. Not to mention that Tyrion's apparently smitten with Dany in Season 7, if Peter Dinklage is to be believed. 

 

5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Granted, all this is only true if Jon+Dany don't make it to the end (with a heir on the way) anyway.

Yes, and while Dany may be iffy, I think the show has telegraphed that Jon is the endgame king. The show has made such a fuss about Jon's parentage and (given S7 spoilers) legitimacy that I find it hard to believe that the writers would just kill him off again. If Jon's just going to wind up fed to the WW meat grinder, who cares whether or not he's the legitimate heir?

 

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 If they do, a reason to make Tyrion a Targ seems to be missing, unless he does somehow ride Drogon or Rhaegal in S8 and makes a difference that way.

I agree. Once you remove the potential king and dragonrider scenarios, there's really no plotline reason to make Tyrion a half-Targ.

 

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The marriage between Sansa and Tyrion seems to be over on the show

In addition to the dismissive mention of Tyrion by Sansa in 7x02, Tyrion is now "smitten" with Dany, so that's likely the nail in the Tyrion/Sansa coffin, if indeed a nail was needed after the writers got rid of the marriage in Season 5.

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5 minutes ago, Wouter said:

(...)

One thing from the books that stood out for me was "the life of four kings" by grand maester Kaeth. Tyrion was a fan of Viserys II, who was apparently doing the actual ruling as hand for much of the long rules of his siblings (like Baelor the blessed) and was himself king for only a short time. Oberyn mocked him and Tyrion defended him. This might be a bit of foreshadowing. On a similar note, there was the infamous turtle in AFFC, "heralding the birth of kings". And most of us suspect (f)Aegon isn't going to make it to be king, or at least not long and successful enough to warrant such a herald. Is this the author speaking to the audience? 

:agree: completely.

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Granted, all this is only true if Jon+Dany don't make it to the end (with a heir on the way) anyway. If they do, a reason to make Tyrion a Targ seems to be missing, unless he does somehow ride Drogon or Rhaegal in S8 and makes a difference that way. 

I am still convinced it will be Viserion in the books (check my signature's links). Not sure there is much of a difference between Viserion and Rhaegal in the show? They are just the 2 other dragons as opposed to Drogon. And yes, if Tyrion is a Targ (half-Targ... half-man!), he has to ride a dragon at some point, otherwise nobody (including us the readers / watchers) would be able to link the dots.

 

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5 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I think GRRM has done too good a job at fooling the audience into thinking no one's safe. In the old 1993 outline, he actually says that while he wishes to create the impression that no one's safe, five characters, including Jon and Dany, will make it through all three (as then planned) volumes.

5 years before aGoT was published and 25 years ago. This can not be taken for granted.

9 minutes ago, Newstar said:

The writers wouldn't have ended the Tyrion/Sansa marriage to make way for Sansa's marriage to Ramsay if they intended Sansa and Tyrion to end up together. Not to mention that Tyrion's apparently smitten with Dany in Season 7, if Peter Dinklage is to be believed. 

So what? The show seems to imply much more than the books that polygamy is not really an issue in the 7 kingdoms. And a successful marriage has nothing to do with smitten partners according to GRRM. Look at Ned and Cat for instance. Or Rhaegar and Lyanna!

15 minutes ago, Newstar said:

Yes, and while Dany may be iffy, I think the show has telegraphed that Jon is the endgame king. The show has made such a fuss about Jon's parentage and (given S7 spoilers) legitimacy that I find it hard to believe that the writers would just kill him off again. If Jon's just going to wind up fed to the WW meat grinder, who cares whether or not he's the legitimate heir?

Now this is a very fair point. It only makes sense if the whole point is to favour Competence (the Realm's Interest - Varys' point of view) against Blood Right (Jon, not Dany!). And Jon is the one pointing at it in S7 episode 2: "you chose me for your king, I did not want it". He will not accept the 7K crown IMHO, he will chose the North, just like Bloodraven... Or Rhaegar.

 

31 minutes ago, Newstar said:

I agree. Once you remove the potential king and dragonrider scenarios, there's really no plotline reason to make Tyrion a half-Targ.

I could not agree more. This why I believe Tyrion is half-Targ. Read the books (again) or at least the full AJT thread: 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

5 years before aGoT was published and 25 years ago. This can not be taken for granted.

It's useful as a statement of intent which is reflected in the finished product. GRRM explicitly spells out that he intended to create the impression that no one is safe while sparing five characters. It's indisputable in the published books that he succeeded in doing so, since the idea that "No one is safe!!!!" is one of the books' chief selling points, and it's also indisputable that despite the idea that "no one is safe," the main characters have survived mostly unscathed (and Jon will be resurrected as per the show).

 

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And a successful marriage has nothing to do with smitten partners according to GRRM. Look at Ned and Cat for instance. 

But the point is that for Tyrion and Sansa to marry, they would have to want to marry; all the people who could or would force Sansa and Tyrion to marry are dead. And why would they marry? Sansa never wanted anything to do with Tyrion. Tyrion never loved Sansa, but he at least lusted after Sansa and was tempted by the idea of a pretty highborn wife, but now that he's in love with Dany, whatever interest he may have once had in her is gone. If he's going to lust over someone who will never want him, why not someone who seems to to value him as a friend and who trusts him? 

It also seems like a tell from the writers to forget about Tyrion and Sansa's marriage, since he's moving on to Dany and couldn't be less concerned with his marriage to Sansa. Why on earth would they end up together? Ned and Cat had an arranged marriage. Who's going to be left to arrange Tyrion and Sansa's union? Sansa and Tyrion certainly won't want to. 

I understand why the idea of Tyrion as king is popular, but as the show has made clear, if anyone's going to be the endgame king, it will be Jon.

 

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Now this is a very fair point. It only makes sense if the whole point is to favour Competence (the Realm's Interest - Varys' point of view) against Blood Right (Jon, not Dany!).

Jon isn't a great king because of blood right, though. He's a great king because all he cares about is the survival of Westeros. And he wasn't named KITN just by virtue of being Ned Stark's son; the Northerners were impressed by him leading their forces on the battlefield, by his delivering justice to Ramsay, and his desire to unite them.

 

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And Jon is the one pointing at it in S7 episode 2: "you chose me for your king, I did not want it". He will not accept the 7K crown IMHO

 

But despite not wanting the KITN title, he still accepted it. It suggests he will accept the 7K crown, even though he won't want it, because he did the same thing with the KITN title.

 

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I could not agree more. This why I believe Tyrion is half-Targ. Read the books (again) or at least the full AJT thread

LOL, I've read the AJT threads many times. None have answered the question of why Tyrion needs to be a Targ for plot purposes if he isn't going to ride a dragon or be king, and you haven't, either.

Edited by Newstar

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