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[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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9 hours ago, Newstar said:

I'm not sure what the point would be of making Tyrion a Targ given that we're already down one dragon by the end of S7, especially if Dany and Jon are going to have a child together as seems so obviously telegraphed by the Season 7 spoilers we have. Most of the thinking in book reader circles about Tyrion being a Targ is based on the assumptions that 1) Tyrion will ride a dragon and 2) you need dragon blood to ride a dragon. Even if #2 is correct--and I think this is debatable due to the whole Nettles/Sheepstealer thing--if #1 goes away because one dragon is taken out of the picture, then the whole reason for Tyrion to be a Targ in the first place goes away as well.

Maybe Jon will be a King and regent until child comes of age, helping him as his uncle or family. He can ride a dragon, if hey choose this foolish idea of Jon bonding with Drogon and not Rhaegal. It makes me wonder because wight hunt was ideal chance for Rhaegal to help Jon, but they avoid it. We thought it could be beacause it's too early, but what if it's not his rider. It would make the most sense for him to be his rider, given who his biological father is.

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The only other plot reason for Tyrion being a Targ that I've seen is that Tyrion is floated as a possible backup king in case Jon and Dany die or replace the NK or whatever, but given that Cersei takes the throne without any Targ blood whatsoever, there's certainly precedent for a Lannister to sit the throne, no Targ blood needed. The show hasn't really done anything to set Tyrion up as a future king, though--it's clearly down to Jon and/or Dany at this point, in my opinion--so I doubt that Tyrion as endgame king is a likely outcome.

He could be for the time being or literally as a King. Important thing is that Friki knows spoilers for season 8 or some of them. Also implied that killing White Walker means some wights dies, so by this theory killing Night King means they could kill all the wights. Sort of like ring being thron into Mount Doom. I can see Dany or Jon doing that. Also being said that not all Starks will made it. Jon is a Targ. My guess would be Sansa or Arya but really don't know where Bran is heading too.

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Book Varys is doomed thanks to his alignment with Aegon (and Aegon being doomed), so it makes sense that TV Varys would be doomed as well.

i wonder how? Dany, Cersei or White Walkers. Dany threatened him if goes behind her back and he kinda did when concerned about the Tarlys with Tyrion,not Dany herself. White Walkers could kill him but that doesn't make that much narratove sense, it's not his story. Mel is likely to give her life to Jon or do something for him, his cause or others. 

21 minutes ago, Jo Maltese said:

5 years before aGoT was published and 25 years ago. This can not be taken for granted.

Pretty much. It's only supporting evidence but not key because things have been changed. In some cases a lot.

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

I think GRRM has done too good a job at fooling the audience into thinking no one's safe. In the old 1993 outline, he actually says that while he wishes to create the impression that no one's safe, five characters, including Jon and Dany, will make it through all three (as then planned) volumes.

This is more of supporting evidence but not relevant how this will turn out because things changed since the original outline. Friki implied that at lest one Stark will die. That goes against this original outline.

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Yes,and while Dany may be iffy, I think the show has telegraphed that Jon is the endgame king. The show has made such a fuss about Jon's parentage and (given S7 spoilers) legitimacy that I find it hard to believe that the writers would just kill him off again. If Jon's just going to wind up fed to the WW meat grinder, who cares whether or not he's the legitimate heir?

This could be re herring because it might lead us to Jon, where inreality his son/daughter or Tyrion could be the answer. Third twist is supposed be at the end and involved in the endgame. Considering that Rhaegar and Lyanna vs Jon and Daenerys parallel of love, wedding (could happen with Jon and Dany), sex scene. What if they're going to save Westeros unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna but dies doing it.

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I agree. Once you remove the potential king and dragonrider scenarios, there's really no plotline reason to make Tyrion a half-Targ.

Yes. That leaves us with Hound, Jon or nobody. I have this impression Sansa would stay out of marriages. Jofrey, Tyrion and Ramsay.

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In addition to the dismissive mention of Tyrion by Sansa in 7x02, Tyrion is now "smitten" with Dany, so that's likely the nail in the Tyrion/Sansa coffin, if indeed a nail was needed after the writers got rid of the marriage in Season 5.

Seems like it and if Hound is not an option either. Friki did mentioned that Sansa might marry again. Only option from my point of view would have been Jon but Friki was not sure about this marriaage for Sansa. Just his speculation unlike the others bur we'll see.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Maybe Jon will be a King and regent until child comes of age, helping him as his uncle or family. He can ride a dragon, if hey choose this foolish idea of Jon bonding with Drogon and not Rhaegal. It makes me wonder because wight hunt was ideal chance for Rhaegal to help Jon, but they avoid it. We thought it could be beacause it's too early, but what if it's not his rider. It would make the most sense for him to be his rider, given who his biological father is.

Rhaegal makes the most sense, particularly since Drogon per ASOIAF canon won't accept another rider as long as Dany is alive, but Jon and Drogon having a moment according to S7 spoilers stuck out to me.
 

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He could be for the time being or literally as a King. Important thing is that Friki knows spoilers for season 8 or some of them.

He could have no way of knowing that, since scripts were just finished for S8. I buy that he has some inside information for S7 episodes before they air, since he provides additional details that weren't in the Lads spoilers, but so do /Gotit1111 and /Dragonglassbenjen at /Freefolk, likely because they and Frikidoctor's source have access to episodes used for dubbing in other languages or in the way that Truede had access to episodes before airing, and those episodes won't be available for S8 until 2018 at the earliest.

All Frikidoctor's comments on S8 at this point should be taken as speculation, nothing more. I don't think he's held himself out as having S8 spoilers, either, just musing on future possibilities. 

 

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Friki implied that at lest one Stark will die. That goes against this original outline.

Again, there's no indication that Frikidoctor knows anything about S8.

 

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What if they're going to save Westeros unlike Rhaegar and Lyanna but dies doing it.

Or, they could have a love like Rhaegar and Lyanna but escape their sad fates. We don't know yet.

The intercutting between Jon and Dany's sex scene and Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, if the spoilers are to be believed, suggests that Jon/Dany is meant to be a real romance, not just a bangfest with ominous consequences as has been suggested by other posters.

A Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon/Dany parallel would also seem to point away from speculation that Jon and Dany will be torn apart by inner conflict. Rhaegar and Lyanna were brought down by external forces and never stopped loving each other. If Jon and/or Dany are brought down, it won't be because they fall out of love or oppose each other.

Edited by Newstar

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5 hours ago, Newstar said:

Snip

Don't want to spend hours arguing with you, looks like we will not reach much common ground on this -_-.

Still:

- Sansa and Tyrion are amongst the five 1993 survivors... And character Tyrion has clearly evolved from the original outline.

- Tyrion has no chance of seducing Dany and he knows it... And he may yet learn she is his sister. There is actually a huge clue to this in the show IMO - the scene when they speak of their fathers in S6. Why would Tyrion and Sansa remain married? Exactly for the original reason of their marriage - political, unite the 2 (3) more powerful Houses of the 7K. And Sansa would achieve her grandfather's dream in doing so...

- Tyrion as a king is not my strongest confirmation bias, Sans as a queen is - the younger more beautiful queen... who learnt a lot from Cersei (her own words). And from lady Olenna. And from Littlefinger.

- Jon did not win the Battle of Bastards, Sansa did, by allying with the Vale. And she rightly saw how foolish Jon's tactics were (actually no tactics whatsoever). Jon was crowned KitN because he is believed to be the last male Stark - the young Mormont girl makes it plain enough. And Jon cares, yes, but Jon died once already when a leader - killed by his own men...

- There is not such thing as plot purpose, there is just a plot that only GRRM (and the show writers) knows fully. And the plot lays out 3 heads of the dragon. Therefore it is legitimate that many of us think that there are 3 dragon riders, 3 people with Targ blood and that Tyrion is by far the strongest candidate to the 3rd head.

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5 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Don't want to spend hours arguing with you, looks like we will not reach much common ground on this -_-.

Still:

- Sansa and Tyrion are amongst the five 1993 survivors...

Tyrion is. Sansa isn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest. I think we'll have a better sense of where things are going by the end of Season 7. The writers have been piling on the foreshadowing fast and heavy so far this season.

Edited by Newstar

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13 hours ago, Newstar said:

Rhaegal makes the most sense, particularly since Drogon per ASOIAF canon won't accept another rider as long as Dany is alive, but Jon and Drogon having a moment according to S7 spoilers stuck out to me.

Exactly my thoughts and I do not like it.

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He could have no way of knowing that, since scripts were just finished for S8. I buy that he has some inside information for S7 episodes before they air, since he provides additional details that weren't in the Lads spoilers, but so do /Gotit1111 and /Dragonglassbenjen at /Freefolk, likely because they and Frikidoctor's source have access to episodes used for dubbing in other languages or in the way that Truede had access to episodes before airing, and those episodes won't be available for S8 until 2018 at the earliest.

He can know plot details, who dies or what will happen based on what happens this season. If killing a white walkers means killing some amount of wights, then killing NK could mean wiping them out. If Friki has these spoilers, he might have them from another source and not the person who most likely is doing dubbing. He's Spanish so, they had to dub it to their native language.

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All Frikidoctor's comments on S8 at this point should be taken as speculation, nothing more. I don't think he's held himself out as having S8 spoilers, either, just musing on future possibilities. 

He always says speculation but he covers himself, so he's not caught. They as HBO went on a hunt last year, if you remember this. So he can't reveal it just yet.

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Or, they could have a love like Rhaegar and Lyanna but escape their sad fates. We don't know yet.

Maybe but love mirrors it, child being mirrors it and death could mirror it too. Bitter part, sweet part is their child. Basically striking similarities are there and while their love could save Westeros and R with L almost destroyed it. fate could be sealed for them and it's not out of realms of possibilities.

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The intercutting between Jon and Dany's sex scene and Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, if the spoilers are to be believed, suggests that Jon/Dany is meant to be a real romance, not just a bangfest with ominous consequences as has been suggested by other posters.

Yes, I agree given that Lads already told us that Rhaegar and Lyanna were very much in love, so will Jon and Dany. That was never in doubt in my mind and anyone closely following them as characters and not justblondly ignoring, hating on it.

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A Rhaegar/Lyanna and Jon/Dany parallel would also seem to point away from speculation that Jon and Dany will be torn apart by inner conflict. Rhaegar and Lyanna were brought down by external forces and never stopped loving each other. If Jon and/or Dany are brought down, it won't be because they fall out of love or oppose each other.

I think they'll be torn apart by White Walkers or someone else, not by lack of love. Will reveal of his parentage challenges their relationship? For sure. Ended it? I don't think so. 

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9 hours ago, Newstar said:

Tyrion is. Sansa isn't.

This is a hit below the belt, you obviously know that the original sole 1993 Stark girl, Arya, meant to be loved by both Tyrion and Jon, has later evolved into Sansa + Arya. And in the original plot, Arya / Sansa survives and becomes Jon's Queen IIRC.

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I don't think that Tyrion being smitten with Dany is anything but Dinklage's take on it, besides the obvious that most men would be smitten with Dany. Even if Tyrion has feelings, the chance that Dany would act on those is quasi nihil - unless he is half-Targ and it is done to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. Moreover, Tyrion does not seem to fit in the three husbands that the house of the Undying (in book) vision suggests.

As for the killing of a white walker taking a part of the wights with him: isn't that from the books? IIRC the Others control/animate the wights, if one goes down their control of the zombies is at least temporarily and partially disrupted.

Regarding Tyrion as bastard son of Aerys the mad: there does seem to be hints in the books, chiefly among those Tyrion's obsession with dragons (also a part of the show) combined with the general attitude of Tywin about Tyrion ("not my son"). And some of his physical properties, like the colours of his eyes. Unless this turns out to be misdirection by Martin, it seems to me that he will turn out to be Aerys' bastard.

If that is true, then Martin will have a reason for this.

Lastly, Jon may not need to be killed twice. He was killed once, and Martin recently said in an interview that he had Dondarrion come back from the death (by fire magic) so it would not come out of left field when he would do it again later. This at least makes it possible that Jon will share some of Dondarrion's post-resurrection properties, even if the warging in Ghost may be a difference his body stopped working and could only be repaired by magical means. What does that mean for his endgame?

 

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2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

This is a hit below the belt, you obviously know that the original sole 1993 Stark girl, Arya, meant to be loved by both Tyrion and Jon, has later evolved into Sansa + Arya. And in the original plot, Arya / Sansa survives and becomes Jon's Queen IIRC.

No, Sansa existed in the outline alongside Arya. She marries Joffrey, births the heir, sides with the Lannisters against her family, and comes to regret it bitterly. Jaime apparently murders her son and possibly her as well (the outline says that Jaime murders everyone ahead of him in the line of succession, which would presumably include the heir to the throne). Arya goes north, falls in mutual love with Jon, and winds up in the middle of a love triangle between Jon and Tyrion.

 

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

I don't think that Tyrion being smitten with Dany is anything but Dinklage's take on it

Too early to tell given that only two S7 episodes have aired. From what I've seen for past seasons, Dinklage is not the type to get creative or make shit up. If he says Tyrion is smitten with Dany, it's because he is, even if that has yet to feature in S7.

 

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Even if Tyrion has feelings, the chance that Dany would act on those is quasi nihil - unless he is half-Targ and it is done to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. Moreover, Tyrion does not seem to fit in the three husbands that the house of the Undying (in book) vision suggests.

I'm not suggesting that Tyrion would have a shot with Dany or even believe that he had a shot with her, only that his love for her would lead him to lose whatever interest he may have had in attempting to resume his marriage with Sansa.

 

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Lastly, Jon may not need to be killed twice. He was killed once, and Martin recently said in an interview that he had Dondarrion come back from the death (by fire magic) so it would not come out of left field when he would do it again later. This at least makes it possible that Jon will share some of Dondarrion's post-resurrection properties, even if the warging in Ghost may be a difference his body stopped working and could only be repaired by magical means. What does that mean for his endgame?

I'm not sure. The show hasn't paid much attention to explaining how Jon functions as a zombie, and it has shown him eating, etc., like a regular human. This could be because his resurrection isn't intended to be permanent, or it could be because it is intended to be permanent and they don't want us to think too much about the fact that Jon is basically a zombie at this point so that his status as endgame king will be easier to swallow.

 

In other big fan theories...according to S7 spoilers, Sandor later says of Gregor "Sooner or later, I'll finish him off" (or words to that effect). Cleganebowl (fucking) confirmed? Fan service or something from the books?

Edited by Newstar

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On 7/29/2017 at 7:55 PM, Newstar said:

LOL, I've read the AJT threads many times. None have answered the question of why Tyrion needs to be a Targ for plot purposes if he isn't going to ride a dragon or be king, and you haven't, either.

I came to the conclusion that I thought Tryion would a Targ bastard without assuming he would ride a dragon (although I still believe this might happen) or become king (I have never really thought this would happen -- but of course, it could). During my original analysis, dating back a few years now, neither of those possibilities really factored in at all.

The short answer to why I thought Tyrion needed to be a Targ -- and the reason that I have always had in my head -- is that Rhaegar stated in the HotU prophecy that the Dragon must have three heads. To me, that prophecy has always meant that it would take three Targs to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. I have never been able to make any sense of that prophecy without a third Targ in addition to Jon and Dany being instrumental in the success of the war against the Others (i.e., White Walkers). Tyrion is the only plausible candidate to be that third Targ.

Yes, I know that the show has not focused on this prophecy -- but D&D have indicated that they will stick to the major outcomes for the major characters that will occur in the books -- and in the books the prophecies will come true in some form. D&D do not need to focus on the prophecy to make the outcome happen -- but GRRM needs the outcome to happen (in the books) for the prophecy to make sense and be true. I have not heard any other plausible theory for how that prophecy can be fulfilled without a third Targ being central to the war endeavor. And if there is a third Targ -- almost certainly that third Targ is Tyrion.

Precisely how Tyrion become instrumental in being the third head of the dragon is not something that I can predict (probably not something that is possible to predict and GRRM very well could have Tyrion do something the readers could not have expected (like when he introduced fAegon more or less out of nowhere -- or maybe there are better examples, but hopefully you get the point)). I also acknowledge the possibility that Tyrion will be a Targ in the books but not the show. Either way, if the dragon must have three heads, then the war effort must be led by three Targs.

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2 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I came to the conclusion that I thought Tryion would a Targ bastard without assuming he would ride a dragon (although I still believe this might happen) or become king (I have never really thought this would happen -- but of course, it could). During my original analysis, dating back a few years now, neither of those possibilities really factored in at all.

The short answer to why I thought Tyrion needed to be a Targ -- and the reason that I have always had in my head -- is that Rhaegar stated in the HotU prophecy that the Dragon must have three heads. To me, that prophecy has always meant that it would take three Targs to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. I have never been able to make any sense of that prophecy without a third Targ in addition to Jon and Dany being instrumental in the success of the war against the Others (i.e., White Walkers). Tyrion is the only plausible candidate to be that third Targ.

GRRM has said that the third head need not necessarily be a Targ, though. And Tyrion can't bring much to the war against the WWs if he's not going to ride a dragon.

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I really don t think tyrion is a targ. If there are lannysters that are actually targs they must be cersei/Jaime. They fit the targ criteria perfectly. Jaime is great, cersei and jofrey are mad. They are both beautifull and they are tiwin's pride. How poetic and perfect would it be that the son he always hated would be his only son? that he would end up inheriting casterly rock?

The only reason I think people think tyrion is a targ is because they like him. There is very little or no evidence at all that he could be a targ...

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20 hours ago, Wouter said:

I don't think that Tyrion being smitten with Dany is anything but Dinklage's take on it, besides the obvious that most men would be smitten with Dany. Even if Tyrion has feelings, the chance that Dany would act on those is quasi nihil - unless he is half-Targ and it is done to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. Moreover, Tyrion does not seem to fit in the three husbands that the house of the Undying (in book) vision suggests.

As for the killing of a white walker taking a part of the wights with him: isn't that from the books? IIRC the Others control/animate the wights, if one goes down their control of the zombies is at least temporarily and partially disrupted.

Regarding Tyrion as bastard son of Aerys the mad: there does seem to be hints in the books, chiefly among those Tyrion's obsession with dragons (also a part of the show) combined with the general attitude of Tywin about Tyrion ("not my son"). And some of his physical properties, like the colours of his eyes. Unless this turns out to be misdirection by Martin, it seems to me that he will turn out to be Aerys' bastard.

If that is true, then Martin will have a reason for this.

Lastly, Jon may not need to be killed twice. He was killed once, and Martin recently said in an interview that he had Dondarrion come back from the death (by fire magic) so it would not come out of left field when he would do it again later. This at least makes it possible that Jon will share some of Dondarrion's post-resurrection properties, even if the warging in Ghost may be a difference his body stopped working and could only be repaired by magical means. What does that mean for his endgame?

 

Isn t tyrion obecessed (meaning interested) in dragons only after knowing they exist? and because he wants to see them? That is completly diferent from how the other targs feel about dragons... (even if the other targs are kind of taught to be obecessed about dragons so I don t think this is very important.

Doesn t tywin atitude of not killing tyrion not killing tyrion actually suport that after all his investigations he thinks tyrion is his son? otherwise he would have killed him!

And what about tyrion's appearence is related to targs?

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mismatched eyes of green and black, and a mixture of pale blond and black hair

If there were purple eyes and silver or platinium hair...

Most of what you said to me supports tyrion not being a targ...

Edited by divica

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The whole 'the dragon has three heads' part of the prophecy was never mentioned in the show. This part of the story is not going to be adapted.

And neither is the dragonrider thing. There is no talk about mounting or claiming a dragon in the show, or that a dragonrider is bond with a dragon for life. In that sense, there is also no need for special people who could become dragonriders, etc.

It is a much more simplified and twisted version of the original story.

In that sense I'm reasonably confident that we won't get any special revelations on Tyrion's parentage in the show. But that has no bearing on the situation in the books. Perhaps Jon will sort of bond with a dragon later on but the chances that this going to become a crucial and special thing (and not him just riding a dragon like he also may ride a horse) in the show is not very likely.

The spoiler report that 

Spoiler

Viserion is going to be killed to become the undead mount of the Night King

is not very likely to become true in the books. For one, there is no big bad Dark Lord type of character in the books who might be in need of special mount. If the Others are going to use undead dragons they could reanimate carcasses that lie in cold storage in the Lands of Always Winter since the Long Night. Or they could use themselves some ice dragons.

It also seems that 

Spoiler

the Night King is going to use Viserion to destroy/breach the Wall.

That should unfold very differently in the books, too. There we have the Horn of Winter, the Black Gate, and ice spiders. This has become a B-movie action series by now, with little real connection to the original story.

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22 hours ago, Newstar said:

I'm not suggesting that Tyrion would have a shot with Dany or even believe that he had a shot with her, only that his love for her would lead him to lose whatever interest he may have had in attempting to resume his marriage with Sansa.

I'm not sure. The show hasn't paid much attention to explaining how Jon functions as a zombie, and it has shown him eating, etc., like a regular human. This could be because his resurrection isn't intended to be permanent, or it could be because it is intended to be permanent and they don't want us to think too much about the fact that Jon is basically a zombie at this point so that his status as endgame king will be easier to swallow.

In other big fan theories...according to S7 spoilers, Sandor later says of Gregor "Sooner or later, I'll finish him off" (or words to that effect). Cleganebowl (fucking) confirmed? Fan service or something from the books?

There's nothing to stop Tyrion from being smitten with several girls/women at once, especially as he likely realises Dany is out of reach for him. If Tyrion regains significant power (as lord of Casterly Rock, for example) then he may see the need to get a heir. Should he be the back-up king, getting a heir (and a spare) is a necessity. He may still need to get a functioning marriage, unless he goes off to a vineyard as has been suggested (on the show).

 

Firewights: the show hasn't paid much attention to how Dondarrion functions, either, but in the books this is a clear case. He's one of very few characters where the show version has outlived its book counterpart, but even when he was still active in the books it was clear he was never going to take up his lordship or go through with a marriage. It remains to be seen what exactly will have happened in the books to restore Jon; if Martin ever finishes Winds we would find out, but the show may be over by then and the endgame (largely) known.

 

As for Sandor, there is a Bran vision in AGOT that seems to  link Sandor with Gregor, Jaime and the Stark sister. With this season reminding us there is unfinished business between Sansa/Arya and Cersei, it may yet happen that the Clegane's and Jaime will somehow be involved. If the show goes that route (we'll see what happens) then I think the books are theoretically supposed to do likewise.

3 hours ago, divica said:

Isn t tyrion obcessed (meaning interested) in dragons only after knowing they exist? and because he wants to see them? That is completly diferent from how the other targs feel about dragons... (even if the other targs are kind of taught to be obecessed about dragons so I don t think this is very important.

Doesn t tywin atitude of not killing tyrion not killing tyrion actually suport that after all his investigations he thinks tyrion is his son? otherwise he would have killed him!

And what about tyrion's appearence is related to targs?

If there were purple eyes and silver or platinium hair...

Most of what you said to me supports tyrion not being a targ...

Tyrion was fascinated by dragons as a young boy. He was very distraught when one of his uncles broke the news that they were extinct. He also had dreams about them, and even as an adult he apparently still does on occasion ("I rarely dream about dragons anymore" - said to Jon in book 1, IIRC). The show went to the trouble of having Tyrion explain something like his monologue while freeing the dragons in Meereen in S6.

Tywin's main attitude to Tyrion is that he seems to be determined that Tyrion inherits squat, except maybe some allowance to live in comfort. The difference in attitude towards Jaime and Cersei (he explicitly wants Jaime to inherit) shows that he has zero doubts about them being his trueborn children. Tyrion, however, is only his son when he happens to need him, and as soon as that need is over it's back to "you're not my son". This may be, as many think, purely because Tyrion is a dwarf and Tywin can't face having sired him, but the alternative explanation that Tywin has good reasons to doubt Tyrion's parentage (and thus actually means it when he says "not my son") has a lot of merit, too, due to an apparent affair between Joanna and Aerys. 

As to why he doesn't kill Tyrion (allthough arguably, he kinda tried during the battle of the Green Fork): no matter what, Tyrion is a son of Joanna, whom Tywin supposedly loved.

Tyrion's appearance: I think Unmasked Lurker can answer this better. I think that his eye condition is similar to that of Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard from Bloodraven's time. His deformaton may also be a result of a failed attempt to end the pregnancy. 

Another intereting thing is Moqorro, the Red Priest who claims that he has seen Tyrion in the midst of dragons, in the flames. It's open to interpretaton (is he himself one of the dragons, or is he merely surrounded by them?) but it's a reminder of his importance. Certainly, in the books Tyrion knows Jon and (f)Aegon personally and eventually he will also get to know Dany well (and probably influence her, as he briefly did with the other two as well). We can conclude that much from the show as it was widely predicted purely on the base of the books.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The spoiler report that 

  Hide contents

Viserion is going to be killed to become the undead mount of the Night King

is not very likely to become true in the books. For one, there is no big bad Dark Lord type of character in the books who might be in need of special mount. If the Others are going to use undead dragons they could reanimate carcasses that lie in cold storage in the Lands of Always Winter since the Long Night. Or they could use themselves some ice dragons.

 

That's a good point: the Night King may not exist as such in the books, nor have a direct counterpart (allthough some kind of leader of the Others, beside the nebulous God called "the great other", may yet be revealed). 

Having said that, while the mechanics are different I still expect the main beats of the ending to be very true to what Martin has (or had?) been planning. 

If Tyrion is a son of Aerys in the books, I think this will have to be in the show as well. This is too major for a top-6 character.

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6 minutes ago, Wouter said:

That's a good point: the Night King may not exist as such in the books, nor have a direct counterpart (allthough some kind of leader of the Others, beside the nebulous God called "the great other", may yet be revealed). 

There is no reason to believe that a Great Other exist. Nothing indicates that the red priests have any access to metaphysical truths about the deities of Martinworld.

That said, there might be a directing force behind the Others. Possibly some renegade Children of the Forest or perhaps a sort of anti-Bran/Bloodraven, a twisted greenseer living beneath frozen weirwood in the Heart of Winter.

But chances are that this power is not going to involve itself in some sort of action battle.

6 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Having said that, while the mechanics are different I still expect the main beats of the ending to be very true to what Martin has (or had?) been planning. 

If Tyrion is a son of Aerys in the books, I think this will have to be in the show as well. This is too major for a top-6 character.

Why should they do that? Peter Dinklage has pretty much nothing in common with Tyrion. He is playing a completely different character. And if the show runners don't like this whole 'Tyrion Targaryen' thing they are under no obligation to include in their TV show. Just as they dropped and changed a lot of other stuff.

But, still, they could revisit Tyrion's parentage in the show, too, if they wanted to. But I quite honestly don't see much point even in the Jon Snow thing in relation to the show. There is so little magic and prophecy there that it is more or less irrelevant whose son Jon Snow is. That's not going to make him all that special because there is no reason to believe that you need Targaryen blood, etc. to become a dragonrider.

And we can be pretty sure that there is not going to be any subtlety going to be involved in the grand finale. We'll have some grand battle with Dany and Jon and the dragons

Spoiler

bringing down the Night King and undead Viserion while the good guys on the ground fight against 'the armies of the dead' (great phrase, Kit, by the way, small wonder why you were basically laughed out of the hall) and the normal Others. Once the Night King is destroyed all the Others and wights will explode and/or die for good and all, just as it usually happens in some sort of video game/LotR movie adaptation.

How the grand finale will go in the books I don't know. We don't yet know enough about the Others to predict that. But it shouldn't be that easy nor as clichéd.

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27 minutes ago, Wouter said:

There's nothing to stop Tyrion from being smitten with several girls/women at once, especially as he likely realises Dany is out of reach for him. If Tyrion regains significant power (as lord of Casterly Rock, for example) then he may see the need to get a heir. Should he be the back-up king, getting a heir (and a spare) is a necessity. He may still need to get a functioning marriage, unless he goes off to a vineyard as has been suggested (on the show).

Be that as it may, Sansa is very unlikely to be interested in resuming the marriage. In addition to her established hatred of the Lannisters and lack of attraction to Tyrion, in the show, with Bran taking himself out of the running in 7x03, Sansa seems on track to be the endgame lady of Winterfell, which is incompatible with her ending up at Casterly Rock. I suppose Tyrion could always end up as lord of Winterfell, but that seems highly unlikely, and Tyrion looks like he's on track to end up with Casterly Rock. It looks like they'll have separate futures.

 

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As for Sandor, there is a Bran vision in AGOT that seems to  link Sandor with Gregor, Jaime and the Stark sister. With this season reminding us there is unfinished business between Sansa/Arya and Cersei, it may yet happen that the Clegane's and Jaime will somehow be involved. If the show goes that route (we'll see what happens) then I think the books are theoretically supposed to do likewise.

I agree. There looks like there will be a final reckoning involving Cersei, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, and the Cleganes, although given Tyrion and Cersei's relationship it would be odd if he weren't in the mix somehow.

 

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As to why he doesn't kill Tyrion (allthough arguably, he kinda tried during the battle of the Green Fork): no matter what, Tyrion is a son of Joanna, whom Tywin supposedly loved.

I always wondered why Tywin would be so quick to imply that Joanna cheated on him (by openly doubting his paternity of Tyrion) if he loved her so much.

Edited by Newstar

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17 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Tyrion was fascinated by dragons as a young boy. He was very distraught when one of his uncles broke the news that they were extinct. He also had dreams about them, and even as an adult he apparently still does on occasion ("I rarely dream about dragons anymore" - said to Jon in book 1, IIRC). The show went to the trouble of having Tyrion explain something like his monologue while freeing the dragons in Meereen in S6.

Tywin's main attitude to Tyrion is that he seems to be determined that Tyrion inherits squat, except maybe some allowance to live in comfort. The difference in attitude towards Jaime and Cersei (he explicitly wants Jaime to inherit) shows that he has zero doubts about them being his trueborn children. Tyrion, however, is only his son when he happens to need him, and as soon as that need is over it's back to "you're not my son". This may be, as many think, purely because Tyrion is a dwarf and Tywin can't face having sired him, but the alternative explanation that Tywin has good reasons to doubt Tyrion's parentage (and thus actually means it when he says "not my son") has a lot of merit, too, due to an apparent affair between Joanna and Aerys. 

As to why he doesn't kill Tyrion (allthough arguably, he kinda tried during the battle of the Green Fork): no matter what, Tyrion is a son of Joanna, whom Tywin supposedly loved.

Tyrion's appearance: I think Unmasked Lurker can answer this better. I think that his eye condition is similar to that of Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard from Bloodraven's time. His deformaton may also be a result of a failed attempt to end the pregnancy. 

Another intereting thing is Moqorro, the Red Priest who claims that he has seen Tyrion in the midst of dragons, in the flames. It's open to interpretaton (is he himself one of the dragons, or is he merely surrounded by them?) but it's a reminder of his importance. Certainly, in the books Tyrion knows Jon and (f)Aegon personally and eventually he will also get to know Dany well (and probably influence her, as he briefly did with the other two as well). We can conclude that much from the show as it was widely predicted purely on the base of the books.

I didn t remember that tyrion thought about dragons that much. That is a valid argument.

His atitude towards Jaime and cersei can also be because he never thought they could be anybody else's children but his. Why would he go investigating about their parentage?

In regards to tyrion is completly diferent. Tywin wouldn t father a dwarf if he wasn t sure he was the father. And saying he would raise a baby his wife had with another man... The only possible way he could contemplate it is if she was raped, however if it happened tywin would have let up something... GRRM always lets on something about his plot twists. And saying "you are no son of mine" while dying isn t what I think a man like tywin would say to tyrion if he thought he wasn t his son in that situation. In adition, even if tyrion was the product of rape I think tywin would make one of his bannermen raise tywin instead of fathering him...

 

Even that conversation with Moqorro is literary better if tyrion is a man that ends up meeting every dragon and influencing them in some way (jon, danny, Aegon are certain and if varys is a blackfyre as so many people think tyrion also influences him) than a dragon meeting all the other dragons and givng them advices... Tyrion isn t a dragon sage...

 

After all this, obviously it is possible that tyrion could be a targ. However I think it is much better if he was the only true son of tywin.

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Hey guys, how's everyone doing? I won't be in too deep in this discussion right now because this thread is supposed to contain book spoilers but not show spoilers, and I'm not anxious to hear about the recent hacked info from HBO. Maybe we need yet another thread (joke). Just a quick reminder of something George wrote on his blog re Tyrion 'flying':

http://grrm.livejournal.com/16495.html

Note he writes "Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will... ah... could... ah, never mind." Note that he's writing on his blog, not speaking offhandedly to an interviewer. This is back in 2007. I would think if any character will be riding a dragon it will have been planned long in advance. The book-based discussion over whether a non-Targ could ride a dragon raged long and hard on UL's A+J=T threads if anyone's interested.

At this point I actually would prefer Winds of Winter would not come out until after season 8, then I won't have to keep shifting gears like this! I'm pretty convinced Tyrion is a Targ, but I'm equally convinced at this point that there is no proving it one way or another.

The show teased last night that another dragon rider might arise, but is also foreshadowing the death of a dragon, leaving only two, and by show-logic I think that means Jon, not Tyrion (any doubts I had left about Jon and Dany hooking up were completely dispelled when she followed him with her eyes as he walked off after their private conversation). But if book-foreshadowing means anything on the show, there is the suggestion in the leaked WoW chapter Tyrion II that:

Spoiler

Tyrion will be involved with a wounded white dragon. So maybe that happens on the show also.

 

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