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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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On July 26, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yes!!!!! and Epsiode 2!! The first 15 minutes convo's were awesome! stuck to the books (for the most part).  I do find it weird that literally no one has mentioned that they may need 2 more riders.

You could be right about this, given that it has not been brought up at all yet.

Last night - around the map table, they seemed to be discussing it finally. They need to use a dragon to find Euron's fleet, but it's too dangerous for Dany to go? Seems like another rider is on the way. I just can't shake the feeling that the show wants it to be Jon, though, even though Tyrion is standing right there when Missandei says it.

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There is no need for dragonriders in the show. The dragons do what Dany wants whether they have riders or not. They already proved that again and again. Why on earth should that suddenly change? They are wrapping things up, not dragging on the story.

If Tyrion were to become a dragonrider he would have become a dragonrider back in Meereen.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no need for dragonriders in the show. The dragons do what Dany wants whether they have riders or not. They already proved that again and again. Why on earth should that suddenly change? They are wrapping things up, not dragging on the story.

If Tyrion were to become a dragonrider he would have become a dragonrider back in Meereen.

I have not read the spoilers for this season so I am not aware if any characters are at some point intended to ride dragons other than Dany, but in S7E3 they did start hinting at that possibility around the Painted Table.

I hope they don't include other dragon riders, for a believe it would be a forced move on the show's behalf. I can't help but feel, though, that they may want to include it for spectacle purposes. The idea that it would look good visually on screen, a scene with Dany riding in on Drogon with, say, Jon / Tyrion on Rhaegal and Viserion.

To get to the point of having other dragon riders they'd need to start foreshadowing and leading up to it very soon, because I don't believe it is going to as simple as them just getting on the back of them and flying. There would need to be an explanation as to why they can and why they have been chosen to ride them. At this point in the series, with not long to go, they should be tying up as many lose threads as they can without opening up completely new ones.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no need for dragonriders in the show. The dragons do what Dany wants whether they have riders or not. They already proved that again and again. Why on earth should that suddenly change? They are wrapping things up, not dragging on the story.

If Tyrion were to become a dragonrider he would have become a dragonrider back in Meereen.

 

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I have not read the spoilers for this season so I am not aware if any characters are at some point intended to ride dragons other than Dany, but in S7E3 they did start hinting at that possibility around the Painted Table.

I hope they don't include other dragon riders, for a believe it would be a forced move on the show's behalf. I can't help but feel, though, that they may want to include it for spectacle purposes. The idea that it would look good visually on screen, a scene with Dany riding in on Drogon with, say, Jon / Tyrion on Rhaegal and Viserion.

To get to the point of having other dragon riders they'd need to start foreshadowing and leading up to it very soon, because I don't believe it is going to as simple as them just getting on the back of them and flying. There would need to be an explanation as to why they can and why they have been chosen to ride them. At this point in the series, with not long to go, they should be tying up as many lose threads as they can without opening up completely new ones.

That may be true - but the show has not really established what it takes to ride. Dany has an ill-defined psychic connection, and mounted Drogon in a moment of need. And she speaks Valyrian. By the loose rules they've established, they could stick either Jon or Tyrion on a dragon; Jon is a Targ without doubt, and Tyrion has already hung out with the dragons successfully.

They might not have total control like she does, but they still might achieve some key goal in a moment of need. My instinct is that they want that moment to happen. Just a feeling I have.

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6 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

 

That may be true - but the show has not really established what it takes to ride. Dany has an ill-defined psychic connection, and mounted Drogon in a moment of need. And she speaks Valyrian. By the loose rules they've established, they could stick either Jon or Tyrion on a dragon; Jon is a Targ without doubt, and Tyrion has already hung out with the dragons successfully.

They might not have total control like she does, but they still might achieve some key goal in a moment of need. My instinct is that they want that moment to happen. Just a feeling I have.

Yes, but Dany also nurtured those dragons since they were in their eggs. She is the mother of the three dragons. And still, it took her until season 5 (I know they weren't always the right size to ride) to ride one of her dragons and it was in a moment of rescue as opposed to a moment of her choosing.

The dragons may have known Tyrion for a while now, but there hasn't been much to suggest they have a relationship with him, especially enough to let him mount one of them. As for Jon, he has literally just landed in Dragonstone and is seeing them for the first time. They also seem to be a sight he isn't quite comfortable with, either. He does have Targaryen blood which would quicken the process, but at the moment, he doesn't know that, and I hope it's something he doesn't find out for a while.

I'm not saying I don't think there's a chance Tyrion or Jon could ride these dragons. I'm just saying that I would be slightly disappointed with the writers if they did, given that it hasn't really been set up for them to do it, and if it took Dany 5 seasons to do it, I can't imagine it making sense for Tyrion and Jon to do it so quickly.

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5 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Yes, but Dany also nurtured those dragons since they were in their eggs. She is the mother of the three dragons. And still, it took her until season 5 (I know they weren't always the right size to ride) to ride one of her dragons and it was in a moment of rescue as opposed to a moment of her choosing.

The dragons may have known Tyrion for a while now, but there hasn't been much to suggest they have a relationship with him, especially enough to let him mount one of them. As for Jon, he has literally just landed in Dragonstone and is seeing them for the first time. They also seem to be a sight he isn't quite comfortable with, either. He does have Targaryen blood which would quicken the process, but at the moment, he doesn't know that, and I hope it's something he doesn't find out for a while.

I'm not saying I don't think there's a chance Tyrion or Jon could ride these dragons. I'm just saying that I would be slightly disappointed with the writers if they did, given that it hasn't really been set up for them to do it, and if it took Dany 5 seasons to do it, I can't imagine it making sense for Tyrion and Jon to do it so quickly.

Yes, well, I've certainly gotten used to disappointment with the show writers! Just last night they had a Braavosi complaining about downturn in the slave trade. In the books I've come to expect logic. In the show, it's the MST3K mantra whenever possible. I like the show, I don't want to bash it too much, but it's true.

Now that they have seen Dany ride, the show characters at least have an example to follow. If Dany gets into trouble, or if the Others pass the wall, it will be heightened enough dramatically to justify radical occurrence by show standards. They could find out about possible Targ connections later - has the show ever even asserted that only Valyrians can ride?

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3 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

 

Now that they have seen Dany ride, the show characters at least have an example to follow. If Dany gets into trouble, or if the Others pass the wall, it will be heightened enough dramatically to justify radical occurrence by show standards. They could find out about possible Targ connections later - has the show ever even asserted that only Valyrians can ride?

I'm not sure if it has, but has it been suggested that people other than Valyrians can ride them? I think we have all just come to assume only people of Targaryen blood can ride them. It makes them seem more entrenched in magic and the Targaryens a more exclusive club.

I suppose it all depends on when other characters would need to ride the dragons. Last episode there were suggestions about others riding them to take on Euron's fleet. But for something as massive as other characters riding dragons, I would hope for a much more important reason than to take on an army. Because if they can suddenly ride a dragon and face Euron then they can just resort to the old dragon riding trick anytime they want.

I'd rather it be savoured for a major event, so I could see the sense in the spectacle of three dragon riders taking on the Others and the army of the dead. That's if all three dragons survive long enough, which I hope for story purposes they won't. Although it's a shame such a rare mythical beast may end up being taken down by Qyburn's 'genius' bow and arrow.

I had high hopes for Euron to return to Cersei with the hellhorn, but alas, it looks like they've left the dragon binder out of the show.

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10 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I'm not sure if it has, but has it been suggested that people other than Valyrians can ride them? I think we have all just come to assume only people of Targaryen blood can ride them. It makes them seem more entrenched in magic and the Targaryens a more exclusive club.

I suppose it all depends on when other characters would need to ride the dragons. Last episode there were suggestions about others riding them to take on Euron's fleet. But for something as massive as other characters riding dragons, I would hope for a much more important reason than to take on an army. Because if they can suddenly ride a dragon and face Euron then they can just resort to the old dragon riding trick anytime they want.

I'd rather it be savoured for a major event, so I could see the sense in the spectacle of three dragon riders taking on the Others and the army of the dead. That's if all three dragons survive long enough, which I hope for story purposes they won't. Although it's a shame such a rare mythical beast may end up being taken down by Qyburn's 'genius' bow and arrow.

I had high hopes for Euron to return to Cersei with the hellhorn, but alas, it looks like they've left the dragon binder out of the show.

Yeah, Euron's a clownish shadow of his book self. And losing a dragon to a glorified arrow... but it's just a show; I should probably just relax!

I think you're right about timing - once they've got another dragon rider, it's back to the low-stakes game, and all the good work they've done to make Dany less invincible is out the window. In the books, though, I totally hope Tyrion at least has a meaningful interaction with (perhaps  a wounded) Viserion during the Battle of Fire events. But then I'm nearly convinced of A+J=T, so that's possibly my confirmation bias at play.

I think a major enough event on the show would be Jon riding a dragon to break a siege of Winterfell by the army of the dead, probably just in the nick of time, and that's definitely a season 8 moment if it comes. Also, Dany had a vision of the Red Keep as a smoking ruin - she'll probably be riding the dragon that does that, but Tyrion would certainly pull a move like that, and it would be cathartic for his story. Also wouldn't happen until the last season.

Saving Dany from a jam feels like a possible scenario for the show.

But the most likely reason for another rider would be the final showdown with the Others, as you say.

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4 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

Yeah, Euron's a clownish shadow of his book self. And losing a dragon to a glorified arrow... but it's just a show; I should probably just relax!

I think you're right about timing - once they've got another dragon rider, it's back to the low-stakes game, and all the good work they've done to make Dany less invincible is out the window. In the books, though, I totally hope Tyrion at least has a meaningful interaction with (perhaps  a wounded) Viserion during the Battle of Fire events. But then I'm nearly convinced of A+J=T, so that's possibly my confirmation bias at play.

I think a major enough event on the show would be Jon riding a dragon to break a siege of Winterfell by the army of the dead, probably just in the nick of time, and that's definitely a season 8 moment if it comes. Also, Dany had a vision of the Red Keep as a smoking ruin - she'll probably be riding the dragon that does that, but Tyrion would certainly pull a move like that, and it would be cathartic for his story. Also wouldn't happen until the last season.

Saving Dany from a jam feels like a possible scenario for the show.

But the most likely reason for another rider would be the final showdown with the Others, as you say.

Yeah, I am pretty on A+J=T too, so given Tyrion's known fascination with dragons it would be a massive disappointment if he never has some kind of meaningful interaction with one, considering his close proximity to them in the show - even if it means attending to an injured one, as you say, as opposed to riding one. Though, you can just imagine Tyrion's internal monologue as he rides Viserion, cursing his father and saying, 'I'm not so small now, am I, father? I'm higher than you ever were!' Lol.

Considering the hot springs located beneath Winterfell, it would shock me if there was no connection between dragons and Winterfell, so the potential of Jon coming in on a dragon to fight the Others where winter once fell would be something I could see as a legitimate reason for Jon to ride one.

I just can't help but fear the show is going to deliver us dragon riders in a very clichéd manner to suit a spectacle. But hey, I should have more faith in the writers than I do!

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4 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Yeah, I am pretty on A+J=T too, so given Tyrion's known fascination with dragons it would be a massive disappointment if he never has some kind of meaningful interaction with one, considering his close proximity to them in the show - even if it means attending to an injured one, as you say, as opposed to riding one.

That makes me think that the show might have one injured, not killed, by the ballista, and Tyrion might bond with that dragon by nursing it to health again. It seems like a real possibility in the books, after reading the WoW Tyrion II chapter.

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Even if Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Varys, whoever ended up riding a dragon in the show it would be nothing special because the whole dragonrider rules have not been established as such. There is no need for some sort of lasting bond for life, or other stuff in the show.

And quite honestly, while talking the theoretical background and meaning of all this in the books is great fun the picture of having some dude directing an CGI dragon the size of Vhagar with some whip (like the historical Targaryens did during the Dance as well as Dany in ADwD) doesn't really look good on screen.

One wonders why the hell such creature would care about that, and establishing this whole dragonlord blood magical connection thing would just involve a lot of talking which could not be properly shown.

Sure, if they were actually properly adapting the show they would have depicted Drogon as character in his own right, a free beast while he landed in the pit which then yielded to Dany's authority. It could be done.

But now they can just as well go along with the 'Targaryens can control dragons through their link somehow' thing. Jon is going to be able to do it, too. They don't need to give him a special dragon for that. Although if Dany always rides Drogon he may then be stuck with Rhaegal 

Spoiler

since Viserion is going to die.

 

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Varys, whoever ended up riding a dragon in the show it would be nothing special because the whole dragonrider rules have not been established as such. There is no need for some sort of lasting bond for life, or other stuff in the show.

And quite honestly, while talking the theoretical background and meaning of all this in the books is great fun the picture of having some dude directing an CGI dragon the size of Vhagar with some whip (like the historical Targaryens did during the Dance as well as Dany in ADwD) doesn't really look good on screen.

One wonders why the hell such creature would care about that, and establishing this whole dragonlord blood magical connection thing would just involve a lot of talking which could not be properly shown.

Sure, if they were actually properly adapting the show they would have depicted Drogon as character in his own right, a free beast while he landed in the pit which then yielded to Dany's authority. It could be done.

But now they can just as well go along with the 'Targaryens can control dragons through their link somehow' thing. Jon is going to be able to do it, too. They don't need to give him a special dragon for that. Although if Dany always rides Drogon he may then be stuck with Rhaegal 

  Reveal hidden contents

since Viserion is going to die.

 

If your spoiler proves true,

Spoiler

how bittersweet for Tyrion if he has made a connection with Viserion then loses him.

This is just wild speculation on my part, though. Tyrion suffers far more in the books than in the show, in general, and he is MUCH more bitter.

Imagine Varys riding a dragon! Imagine him and a dragon having a casual conversation about the weather when no one is looking.

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:( I want all 3 dragons to live :(:(

Ok few things

1. Can yall believe those GD drains and Cisterns of Casterly ROck came back up?!?!

--Props to all the people on the Book Forum who called years ago that THAT is how Tyrion would re-take CR

2. Loved hearing Dany admit out loud to everyone that her father sucked, she has no delusions about him, glad to see that fault of hers get thrown out the window.

3. Olenna!!!!

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My favorite part:

Dany: We all enjoy what we're good at.

Jon: I don't.

Dany: [hard look]

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1 minute ago, Weirdo said:

My favorite part:

Dany: We all enjoy what we're good at.

Jon: I don't.

Dany: [hard look]

Perhaps the most Jon Snow-esque comment Jon Snow could have come out with!

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1 minute ago, Weirdo said:

My favorite part:

Dany: We all enjoy what we're good at.

Jon: I don't.

Dany: [hard look]

lol yeah, their excellent writing never fails

So yall notice, the second Jon said 'I'm not a Stark' Drogon swoops low on him. Jon will be riding a dragon soon.  They even mentioned specifically that Dany shouldnt go alone. Certainly Jon will ride Rhaegal. Idk what will happen with Viserion or if Tyrion will ride. I think he will in the books, but maybe not on the show?

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2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So yall notice, the second Jon said 'I'm not a Stark' Drogon swoops low on him. Jon will be riding a dragon soon.  They even mentioned specifically that Dany shouldnt go alone. Certainly Jon will ride Rhaegal.

I suspect you're right, I just hope that you are wrong when you say 'soon'. I just really hope it doesn't happen until Jon takes on the White Walkers. Any other reason for him to be riding one is lame.

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6 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

If your spoiler proves true,

  Hide contents

how bittersweet for Tyrion if he has made a connection with Viserion then loses him.

This is just wild speculation on my part, though. Tyrion suffers far more in the books than in the show, in general, and he is MUCH more bitter.

Imagine Varys riding a dragon! Imagine him and a dragon having a casual conversation about the weather when no one is looking.

As I think I've written up above:

Spoiler

We'll see a lot of dragon-wights-Others fighting action beyond the Wall at the end of this season, with the Others killing Viserion and the Night King raising him up to serve as his mount. He then precedes to begin destroying the Wall with Viserion in the last scene of the season.

But since there is no Night King in the books - and no reason to believe that such a clichéd bad ass Dark Lord evil guy will ever show up in the books (if he did there would have been at least a glimpse in this direction at this point) - there is no reason to believe that he is going to need a special mount, is there?

If George wants our guys to also fight evil dragons he can have the other reanimate dragon carcasses from the ancient days, carcasses that were preserved by the cold in the Lands of Always Winter since the days of the Long Night. Or he could bring the Cannibal back (which he actually might, although most likely as the mount of a person opposed to Daenerys - Aegon, Euron, etc.). He could even introduce us to some ice dragons (who could turn out to be creature the Others artificially created perhaps by changing dragon eggs magically).

There might be some directing hand behind the Others, some sort of twisted Child of the Forest, a corrupted greenseer sitting beneath a weirwood covered in ice in 'the Heart of Winter' but such a person is not likely going to show up leading his armies into battle is some sort of action movie villain way.

That doesn't mean one of the dragons (and its rider) couldn't die in the last battle. But I doubt it is going to happen before that battle.

In addition, Dany's dragons will never reach the size of the creatures in the show. In that sense one of Dany's dragons wouldn't be able to do all that much as a wight. Not to mention, you know, that I've really trouble imagining such dragons flying. George's wights are essentially slow zombies. They can do stuff, but they are slow. Can you imagine wightified birds? I can't. Nor can I imagine a dragon's wings being in the shape to fly after it has been killed (that would have to be a very lucky shot). They can be damaged rather easily.

So, no. Not a likely scenario at all for the books.

Oh, and shall I predict the ending of the show?

Dany and Jon will fight the Night King on dragonback and destroy him while their armies will fight 'the army of the dead'. Once the evil Dark Lord is destroyed his minions will explode like proper little CGI goons from a computer game. And there everyone will be happy. Perhaps Jon is going to die because he already did. This whole zombie thing has to have some repercussions, both in books and show. Perhaps not. If not he and Daenerys will live happily ever after.

And the latter part is very likely to happen in the books, too, although the final battle will be a much more interesting conundrum, with somebody actually having to reach out/challenge whoever there is in the Heart of Winter. The Others aren't all that important. They were apparently also defeated back during the War for the Dawn. It didn't end the threat. That is where Jon as a dragonrider and Bran might come into play. If there is somebody who might physically travel to the Heart of Winter it is Jon Snow on dragonback. And there he might confront the true enemy, whoever he or she is.

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I think I've written up above:

  Hide contents

We'll see a lot of dragon-wights-Others fighting action beyond the Wall at the end of this season, with the Others killing Viserion and the Night King raising him up to serve as his mount. He then precedes to begin destroying the Wall with Viserion in the last scene of the season.

But since there is no Night King in the books - and no reason to believe that such a clichéd bad ass Dark Lord evil guy will ever show up in the books (if he did there would have been at least a glimpse in this direction at this point) - there is no reason to believe that he is going to need a special mount, is there?

If George wants our guys to also fight evil dragons he can have the other reanimate dragon carcasses from the ancient days, carcasses that were preserved by the cold in the Lands of Always Winter since the days of the Long Night. Or he could bring the Cannibal back (which he actually might, although most likely as the mount of a person opposed to Daenerys - Aegon, Euron, etc.). He could even introduce us to some ice dragons (who could turn out to be creature the Others artificially created perhaps by changing dragon eggs magically).

There might be some directing hand behind the Others, some sort of twisted Child of the Forest, a corrupted greenseer sitting beneath a weirwood covered in ice in 'the Heart of Winter' but such a person is not likely going to show up leading his armies into battle is some sort of action movie villain way.

That doesn't mean one of the dragons (and its rider) couldn't die in the last battle. But I doubt it is going to happen before that battle.

In addition, Dany's dragons will never reach the size of the creatures in the show. In that sense one of Dany's dragons wouldn't be able to do all that much as a wight. Not to mention, you know, that I've really trouble imagining such dragons flying. George's wights are essentially slow zombies. They can do stuff, but they are slow. Can you imagine wightified birds? I can't. Nor can I imagine a dragon's wings being in the shape to fly after it has been killed (that would have to be a very lucky shot). They can be damaged rather easily.

So, no. Not a likely scenario at all for the books.

Oh, and shall I predict the ending of the show?

Dany and Jon will fight the Night King on dragonback and destroy him while their armies will fight 'the army of the dead'. Once the evil Dark Lord is destroyed his minions will explode like proper little CGI goons from a computer game. And there everyone will be happy. Perhaps Jon is going to die because he already did. This whole zombie thing has to have some repercussions, both in books and show. Perhaps not. If not he and Daenerys will live happily ever after.

And the latter part is very likely to happen in the books, too, although the final battle will be a much more interesting conundrum, with somebody actually having to reach out/challenge whoever there is in the Heart of Winter. The Others aren't all that important. They were apparently also defeated back during the War for the Dawn. It didn't end the threat. That is where Jon as a dragonrider and Bran might come into play. If there is somebody who might physically travel to the Heart of Winter it is Jon Snow on dragonback. And there he might confront the true enemy, whoever he or she is.

Good stuff LV! You should get a writing gig. I can imagine a non flying dragon wight wreaking havoc on a battlefield- that would be real Robert E Howard quality stuff.

oh well time for work, thanks for your thoughts!!!

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I also liked the line where Tyrion said, 'thank the gods we are not all our fathers' 

LOL 2 of you dont know who you fathers even are, I think that was a nod to AJT

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