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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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On 7/27/2017 at 2:24 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

Hey SS--

Two points I would like to make.

First is that in the last episode, they made a point of having Sansa ask Jon about the line in the letter from Tyrion in which he states that a dwarf is always a bastard in his father's eyes. Seems like foreshadowing to me. Why else bother to call out that line?

Second is that I think there will be three dragon riders -- but only two dragons to ride. How can that be? Jon will find out probably in the first episode of season 8 that he is really Rhaegar's son. I think he will ride Rhaegal. So there we have two of the dragon/dragon rider combinations that have been expected for years. My theory (well, really more of speculation), however, since I found out about the likely fate of Viserion (and it seems meaningful to me that Viserion and not either of the other two is the dragon speculated to die) is that Dany dies in battle probably around episode 4 or 5 of the last season and as a desperation move, Tyrion jumps on Dragon's back and finds he can bond with the dragon. And then later figures out his true heritage. 

When we consider how GRRM structures a story -- simply having Dany, Jon and Tyrion each bond with a single dragon a piece and train for the war and go into battle as the three-headed dragon re-born seems unlikely. GRRM is not just going to have them be a simple variation of Aegon and his sisters (or Dany and her brother/nephew). We readers often come up with theories expecting something that strictly parallel because we have nothing else to go on. But things have to be much more difficult and complicated this time -- the key is that in the end, all three would be necessary for the victory.

There have been several lines about father's between Tyrion, Jon and Dany, it's totally a set up for further Father discussion. I just wish any of them would have a real conversation. They attempted it with Dany being angry about the past to Varys and Tyrion, but always as a queen dictating the flow of the conversation. I Want to see her eating dinner and having a REAL talk with people in regular clothes.

Good to see you :D

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On 1. 8. 2017 at 4:33 PM, JordanJH1993 said:

Perhaps the most Jon Snow-esque comment Jon Snow could have come out with!

Like father, like son. Whichever you wanna choose.

On 1. 8. 2017 at 1:30 AM, Wouter said:

That's a good point: the Night King may not exist as such in the books, nor have a direct counterpart (allthough some kind of leader of the Others, beside the nebulous God called "the great other", may yet be revealed). 

Having said that, while the mechanics are different I still expect the main beats of the ending to be very true to what Martin has (or had?) been planning. 

If Tyrion is a son of Aerys in the books, I think this will have to be in the show as well. This is too major for a top-6 character.

That's what logic would tell us but from the narrative purpose ... reasons are getting smaller by each episode. Buy yeah, it's a big change if true, but maybe D&D think that two secret Targaryens are too much for the audience.

On 31. 7. 2017 at 8:50 PM, Newstar said:

GRRM has said that the third head need not necessarily be a Targ, though. And Tyrion can't bring much to the war against the WWs if he's not going to ride a dragon.

He has not batttle knowledge or skills and his tactical approach sucks so far. Got her three allies in Westeros killed.

On 31. 7. 2017 at 2:12 AM, Newstar said:

I'm not suggesting that Tyrion would have a shot with Dany or even believe that he had a shot with her, only that his love for her would lead him to lose whatever interest he may have had in attempting to resume his marriage with Sansa.

I think his approach and him constantly warning her not to be reckless could be him being concerne for their cause but also becaue he loves her. In the preliminary scripts/leaks/spoilers it says that Tyrion while watching Dany and Jaime. He loves Dany but also cares or loves his brother Jaime. They used the word love.

 

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5 minutes ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Which father, though? Haha!

Rhaegar disliked fighting and maybe even ruling. Ned was the same in this, he had to fight but not like he enjoyed like Robert.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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3 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Rhaegar disliked fighting and maybe even ruling. Ned was the same in this, he had to fight but not like he enjoyed like Robert.

I was trying to make a joke, as opposed to a serious question, lol.

But yeah, I agree that it works for both 'fathers'. When you have Ned Stark as your uncle / adoptive father and Rhaegar Targaryen as your biological father then you really have no way of escaping a somewhat sombre and melancholic nature.

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5 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

I was trying to make a joke, as opposed to a serious question, lol.

But yeah, I agree that it works for both 'fathers'. When you have Ned Stark as your uncle / adoptive father and Rhaegar Targaryen as your biological father then you really have no way of escaping a somewhat sombre and melancholic nature.

Oh well hard to guess sometimes.

Jon got personality of Rhaegar and looks of Lyanna.

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I'm changing my prediction that Bran back at WF means he goes back in the books......if he's going to be the same all knowing entity he is in the show then he won't go back to WF, because while the show can suspend disbelief that he hangs out there for who knows how long before telling anyone that LF is the architect of their family's doom.....it can't happen that way in the books.  So, either Bran doesn't go back to WF until after the war is over, or if he does go back it won't be when any of the other Starks are there.  While the author is often infuriating for a variety of reasons, his plot holes are few and far between, so it's unlikely that Bran can come back to his family with full access to the weirnet prior to the end of the war.

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On 8/4/2017 at 5:33 PM, Cas Stark said:

I'm changing my prediction that Bran back at WF means he goes back in the books......if he's going to be the same all knowing entity he is in the show then he won't go back to WF, because while the show can suspend disbelief that he hangs out there for who knows how long before telling anyone that LF is the architect of their family's doom.....it can't happen that way in the books.  So, either Bran doesn't go back to WF until after the war is over, or if he does go back it won't be when any of the other Starks are there.  While the author is often infuriating for a variety of reasons, his plot holes are few and far between, so it's unlikely that Bran can come back to his family with full access to the weirnet prior to the end of the war.

I agree, I still dont believe Bran leaves the cave int he books, how can he get home? No way Meera could ACTUALLY drag him that far.

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So yeah Jon and Dany is going to happen looks like, She turned to him for advice yo! That was a big step, she was mad AF at Tyrion though, deservedly so, nothing he planned worked out at all.  I think he big time underestimated Euron was the main problem.

Dany totally made the right choice to light the marching army up from dragonback!! and I am so pumped Drogon destroyed that Bard/LOTR giant crossbow.  I dont think any of her dragons should die, they are one of the very few awesome things left on the show, please dont take them away!

Drogon just needs an enormous Valyrian Steel Breast plate :D

 

That was a seriously intense battle, I can't believe Jaime.

---I hope that wasn't Honor the horse that Drogon lit up at the end when Jaime Charged at Dany!!!!

 

 

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So yeah Jon and Dany is going to happen looks like, She turned to him for advice yo! That was a big step, she was mad AF at Tyrion though, deservedly so, nothing he planned worked out at all.  I think he big time underestimated Euron was the main problem.

Dany totally made the right choice to light the marching army up from dragonback!! and I am so pumped Drogon destroyed that Bard/LOTR giant crossbow.  I dont think any of her dragons should die, they are one of the very few awesome things left on the show, please dont take them away!

Drogon just needs an enormous Valyrian Steel Breast plate :D

 

That was a seriously intense battle, I can't believe Jaime.

---I hope that wasn't Honor the horse that Drogon lit up at the end when Jaime Charged at Dany!!!!

 

 

I agree.  She can die [not a Dany fan in any medium], but I will hate it if the dragons die, especially Drogon.  He's remained loyal to her despite she's a pretty bad mother, IMO.  I just closed my eyes during the horse deaths.

I somewhat doubt Tyrion's plans will all go sideways in the books like this, but it's hard to tease out what parts of Aegon's story they've grafted onto Cersei, I can't imagine she would stay queen until the very end like she will in the show.

Yeah, I was relieved when Bran was coming back on the show......but now that I saw it in practice, and how many plot holes it would create.....it's not going to be possible for him to be at WF with any of his siblings, so he probably stays in the far north for the duration like I originally thought.  

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11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  She can die [not a Dany fan in any medium], but I will hate it if the dragons die, especially Drogon.  He's remained loyal to her despite she's a pretty bad mother, IMO.  I just closed my eyes during the horse deaths.

I somewhat doubt Tyrion's plans will all go sideways in the books like this, but it's hard to tease out what parts of Aegon's story they've grafted onto Cersei, I can't imagine she would stay queen until the very end like she will in the show.

Yeah, I was relieved when Bran was coming back on the show......but now that I saw it in practice, and how many plot holes it would create.....it's not going to be possible for him to be at WF with any of his siblings, so he probably stays in the far north for the duration like I originally thought.  

Well It would just be lame to kill a dragon identical to Smaug death, no imagination at all.

I was thinking more about how the show relates to the books, all the Dornish deaths do not bode well for our sweet princess Arianne, and certainly Aegon is fake as we all said.

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21 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Dany totally made the right choice to light the marching army up from dragonback!! and I am so pumped Drogon destroyed that Bard/LOTR giant crossbow.  I dont think any of her dragons should die, they are one of the very few awesome things left on the show, please dont take them away!

Drogon just needs an enormous Valyrian Steel Breast plate :D

 

 

 

 

Personally I think it would make it more interesting if one dragon, at least, was to die. If all three survive until the end, it's just as if dragons are invincible and he or she who has them will win in everything. If one was to be killed it would make us look at them a bit different. Even seeing Bronn take down Drogon last night was a good start, as it showed they can be injured. We don't want it to go too easily for Daenerys, do we???

2 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I was thinking more about how the show relates to the books, all the Dornish deaths do not bode well for our sweet princess Arianne, and certainly Aegon is fake as we all said.

Yeah, this is something that has troubled me, too. Omitting Aegon is as good as saying he is fake Aegon and he will eventually die at some point, whether he gets to the Iron Throne for a time before that or not.

Same with regards to Stannis. They killed him off prematurely, as good as saying he won't get anywhere near the Iron Throne, so why should we keep paying his actor into another season?

Both disappointing for me, as Stannis and Aegon are two of my favourite characters.

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I think Bran will eventually leave the cave in the books and it will be Hodor carrying/dragging him. I expect the 'hold the door' moment in the books to occur at the Weirwood gate at the Nightfort rather than at the cave.

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25 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

I think Bran will eventually leave the cave in the books and it will be Hodor carrying/dragging him. I expect the 'hold the door' moment in the books to occur at the Weirwood gate at the Nightfort rather than at the cave.

I just am thinking about how hard it was on the group to even get to the cave, on the Elk with wolves and White Walkers everywhere, and how Coldhands kept them relatively safe. I dont see how they will get back to the wall without all that extra protection. The show rushes everything so much and completely skips over the monotony and harsh travel conditions, I mean there must be 30 ft deep of snow north of the wall at this point. Unless Bran wargs a giant Eagle to fly them south how can it physically be accomplished?

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1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

I think Bran will eventually leave the cave in the books and it will be Hodor carrying/dragging him. I expect the 'hold the door' moment in the books to occur at the Weirwood gate at the Nightfort rather than at the cave.

It's possible it could happen that way as Bran is much more powerful now....but I still don't see him reunited with his family until after the war beause he simply knows too much.  The show ignores stuff like that, where he knows LF betrayed his father but waits 3 or 4 episodes to get around to telling anyone about it...but the author runs a tighter plot than that.

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4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I just am thinking about how hard it was on the group to even get to the cave, on the Elk with wolves and White Walkers everywhere, and how Coldhands kept them relatively safe. I dont see how they will get back to the wall without all that extra protection. The show rushes everything so much and completely skips over the monotony and harsh travel conditions, I mean there must be 30 ft deep of snow north of the wall at this point. Unless Bran wargs a giant Eagle to fly them south how can it physically be accomplished?

Coldhands is still around, right? Definitely it was difficult getting there and will be getting back but I'm sure Martin will figure out a plausible way. I've always been confident, and the show reinforced my view, that Bran eventually goes back to Winterfell. Tbh, I hope that Martin does actually rein in on the traveling - not the rubbish the show does but rather the way he used to handle traveling in the first 3 books.

 

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It's possible it could happen that way as Bran is much more powerful now....but I still don't see him reunited with his family until after the war beause he simply knows too much.  The show ignores stuff like that, where he knows LF betrayed his father but waits 3 or 4 episodes to get around to telling anyone about it...but the author runs a tighter plot than that.

Yes, it all comes down to the timing and circumstances. Thing is, the entire northern storyline in the show is one gigantic clusterfuck that makes no sense. In the books, the circumstances are going to be very different. As a result, I think that we can only ascertain the very broad strokes from the show - Jon named KiTN (Robb's will), Sansa, Arya and Bran eventually end up at WF, Stannis dies at some point, Shireen is burned, Hodor etc. The only one I'm unsure about is Rickon. The others are all major players whereas Rickon has been a tertiary character so maybe his fate might be quite different - Martin can afford to keep him around as a background character but for the show he was a loose end so he was killed off.

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^^ you could be right about Coldhands, I agree it would be better if Martin somehow hastened some of the travel time, and the show Slowed down some of the travel time.

So a few things after the re-watch; 

I am really liking how much mind control Dany has over Drogon!!

It seems the only verbal command she gives him is 'Dracarys', but he was firing his flame with surgical precision on ONLY Lannister men, horses and wagons. Also When he blocked the small arrows from hitting Dany, it looked like maybe she pulled back a little to guide him into that, but she doesnt have reins, she is only holding on to his horny back, so we have to conclude that they have a powerful mind-connection that she is guiding him with, which really speaks to the bond from the books and I love it.

I actually think (for once) the show did an awesome job showing the difference between Westerosi fighting and Dothraki fighting styles. They really gave us a good idea of what the battle would look like.  I really like how Dany took out an enemy army instead of attacking a city, exactly like many of her ancestors did. I mean this army just took down one of her strongest allies, they had it coming, marching armies are fair game, they are not civilians and they KNEW that there are 3 dragons in Westeros on the opposing team but still chose to march and take Highgarden (for a loan repayment), so fuck them.

Also they even managed to show the Lannister horses freaking out due to dragons, while the Dothraki horses were used to them and did not freak out, huge tactical advantage for Dany in the books, and I was happy to see it on the show.

 

Also!!! So Dany is going to capture Jaime, amiright?

He will be lucky to get out the water alive but he was alone, army destroyed, and Dany standing right there, also Tyrion saw him go in the water, he is Dany's prisoner now.

 

OMG so many good conversations will come from that!!!!

Jaime and Jon--obvi they have a shit ton to talk about!

Jaime killed Dany's father-- serious issues

Jaime and TYRION!!! Jaime just found out that Tyrion DID NOT kill Joffrey, Tyrion will most likely talk some sense into Jaime about Cersei.

Jaime and Varys, Jaime and Davos to a lesser degree.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

Jaime killed Dany's father-- serious issues

 

This could be a great scene, I think - if Dany means it when she acknowledges her father's evil and insanity, and given that she has Tyrion's account of why Jaime killed Aerys, then she could tell Jaime that he was justified in his Kingslaying. It would blow his mind, I think! Especially after he tried to kill her (she was totally fair game, though, as a combatant on the field, I hope she'll acknowledge that too). She could offer to clear his name when she takes the throne. But would he then admit to Tywin's involvement in the murder of Aerys's other children? So much to work with, and all of it earned - let's hope they don't blow it.

They'll probably focus on Tyrion/Jaime, however. And hey, Jaime might just be drowned! Hope not.

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