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Suzanna Stormborn

[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

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8 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

This could be a great scene, I think - if Dany means it when she acknowledges her father's evil and insanity, and given that she has Tyrion's account of why Jaime killed Aerys, then she could tell Jaime that he was justified in his Kingslaying. It would blow his mind, I think! Especially after he tried to kill her (she was totally fair game, though, as a combatant on the field, I hope she'll acknowledge that too). She could offer to clear his name when she takes the throne. But would he then admit to Tywin's involvement in the murder of Aerys's other children? So much to work with, and all of it earned - let's hope they don't blow it.

They'll probably focus on Tyrion/Jaime, however. And hey, Jaime might just be drowned! Hope not.

So many have looked down upon Jaime's involvement in the story of late, but with the last episode, I really feel things could start getting interesting for him.

As you say, there are many possibilities for great scenes regarding Jaime. I am unsure whether I think Daenerys would be so willing to pardon Jaime, though. Yes, she realises her father was truly a mad King, but he still was her father, and Jaime still killed him. That's not to mention the fact that Jaime was more than willing to kill her in the last episode. She'll see why, of course. They are enemies; she was left wide open for attack, of course he was going to go for it, but that isn't enough reason to pardon him for trying.

Maybe, out of some affection for Tyrion, she might be more lenient towards his brother, but at the moment, Tyrion doesn't seem like he is on the greatest of terms with Daenerys. He has made a couple of near grievous blunders, which has already led her to accusing him of still being a Lannister at heart.

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be some kind of parallel to where Jaime helped Tyrion escape from King's Landing, only this time the roles being reversed. Jaime is locked up as a prisoner in Dragonstone, Tyrion and Jaime have a heart to heart and thrash a few things out before Tyrion lets him go. Daenerys is mad enough at him, at the moment, why not risk a bit more anger just to let his brother free? Sure, if Jaime ended up going back to King's Landing and killing Cersei, it would be a masterstroke by Tyrion. One to certainly get back on Daenerys' good side! 

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I think Dany would kill Tyrion if he let Jaime escape.  

Jaime is there to finally change sides IMO and leave Cersei like he has already in the books. Tyrion, Jon and Dany will help him to see the light and what a monster Cersei is (not sure how he doesn't know already). The show has absolutely murdered the character of Jaime, and left us with pathetic Larry, I see this as a chance to reimagine the character and give him some actual purpose.

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On 20.5.2017 at 9:20 AM, Shmedricko said:
  • In S1E7, Benjen's horse returns to Castle Black without him. Jon asks, "Where's my uncle?" The scene then immediately cuts to Renly shouting, "Ned!" -- an early possible hint of Ned's true relationship to Jon.
  • In S1E2, Daenerys looks at her three dragon eggs, which are surrounded by candles. The scene then cuts to more flames, and pans up to reveal Jon Snow, perhaps hinting that he too is a dragon waiting to hatch.
  • Later in this scene, Tyrion says, "Life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king, and my repulsive nephew will be king after him." Tyrion then shoots a glance at Jon, the camera cuts to him, and there's a slight pause. If A+J=T, Jon is also Tyrion's nephew, and he may just become king as well.
  • In S1E3, Jeor tells Tyrion, "Your sister sits by the side of the king. Tell her we need help." If A+J=T, Tyrion has another sister (Daenerys) who sat by the side of a different king (Viserys) who can help against the coming winter with her dragons. In fact, the dragon eggs and Daenerys are in the next scene.

You sum up many clues great!

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"Hold the door". "You died in that cave". "Chaos is a ladder". The Valyrian dagger. R+L. The Starks' reunion in WF. Naw... Bran is coming back eventually. It is known.

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think Dany would kill Tyrion if he let Jaime escape.  

Jaime is there to finally change sides IMO and leave Cersei like he has already in the books. Tyrion, Jon and Dany will help him to see the light and what a monster Cersei is (not sure how he doesn't know already). The show has absolutely murdered the character of Jaime, and left us with pathetic Larry, I see this as a chance to reimagine the character and give him some actual purpose.

I still believe the only way Jaime will truly turn on Cersei is if he catches her in bed with another man. 

What turned Jaime against her in the books was the stuff about Lancel and the Kettleblacks. 

In the show they've made him be able to look past what she did to all those in the Sept. I just can't imagine a conversation with Daenerys and Tyrion is going to change his views on her, considering they'll be telling him stuff he already knows but seems to be ignoring because he loves her.

I think the way Euron was winding Jaime up about what he wants to do to Cersei is setting it up for Euron and Cersei to engage in some kind of relations. I see that being the moment Jaime finally turns on her.

But who knows, really? I'm just glad that Jaime has come to life again after two seasons where the show decided it wasn't going to make him important anymore.

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2 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

So many have looked down upon Jaime's involvement in the story of late, but with the last episode, I really feel things could start getting interesting for him.

As you say, there are many possibilities for great scenes regarding Jaime. I am unsure whether I think Daenerys would be so willing to pardon Jaime, though. Yes, she realises her father was truly a mad King, but he still was her father, and Jaime still killed him. That's not to mention the fact that Jaime was more than willing to kill her in the last episode. She'll see why, of course. They are enemies; she was left wide open for attack, of course he was going to go for it, but that isn't enough reason to pardon him for trying.

Maybe, out of some affection for Tyrion, she might be more lenient towards his brother, but at the moment, Tyrion doesn't seem like he is on the greatest of terms with Daenerys. He has made a couple of near grievous blunders, which has already led her to accusing him of still being a Lannister at heart.

What I wouldn't mind seeing would be some kind of parallel to where Jaime helped Tyrion escape from King's Landing, only this time the roles being reversed. Jaime is locked up as a prisoner in Dragonstone, Tyrion and Jaime have a heart to heart and thrash a few things out before Tyrion lets him go. Daenerys is mad enough at him, at the moment, why not risk a bit more anger just to let his brother free? Sure, if Jaime ended up going back to King's Landing and killing Cersei, it would be a masterstroke by Tyrion. One to certainly get back on Daenerys' good side! 

Jaime needs a pardon for killing her father - she could summarily execute him for it if she felt like it. She probably won't because he's a good hostage and it would alienate Tyrion, but it wouldn't be regarded as illegal by the general population. After all, he broke his Kingsguard vows, and just because Robert pardoned him doesn't mean Dany has to - her claim is that Robert was a usurper anyway.

What I'm hoping is she sees this as an opportunity. Offering to clear his name would be huge for him. Back in the early seasons they regularly reminded us how much he resented the label Kingslayer, and the books never stopped reminding us. She would make herself look magnanimous, and willing to make a clean break from her father's nasty ways.

As for the battle, there is no question he had a right to try to kill her, it's the rules of war universally acknowledged. It's like Vegas - what happens on the battlefield stays on the battlefield. She would look nuts to persecute him for that.

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3 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

Jaime needs a pardon for killing her father - she could summarily execute him for it if she felt like it. She probably won't because he's a good hostage and it would alienate Tyrion, but it wouldn't be regarded as illegal by the general population. After all, he broke his Kingsguard vows, and just because Robert pardoned him doesn't mean Dany has to - her claim is that Robert was a usurper anyway.

What I'm hoping is she sees this as an opportunity. Offering to clear his name would be huge for him. Back in the early seasons they regularly reminded us how much he resented the label Kingslayer, and the books never stopped reminding us. She would make herself look magnanimous, and willing to make a clean break from her father's nasty ways.

As for the battle, there is no question he had a right to try to kill her, it's the rules of war universally acknowledged. It's like Vegas - what happens on the battlefield stays on the battlefield. She would look nuts to persecute him for that.

Completely agree, Jaime had a clean (yet totally foolish) shot at killing her, he tried (I guess he didnt see the 30 ton dragon sitting next to her?) and he failed. She was open game, left herself vulnerable and he had the right to kill hr.  But that same argument holds true for Dany, that marching army was totally fair game. I'm already sick of everyone online saying what a monster she is for killing any enemy army, who had just slaughtered an enemy army (the Tyrells).

What she did was the best choice for her, Robb Stark wasn't afraid to trick and kill his enemy, neither was Tywin Lannister. She is showing her ability to reason, that she is NOT power-hungry crazed and that military vs civilians are 2 different things.

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2 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I think Dany would kill Tyrion if he let Jaime escape.  

Jaime is there to finally change sides IMO and leave Cersei like he has already in the books. Tyrion, Jon and Dany will help him to see the light and what a monster Cersei is (not sure how he doesn't know already). The show has absolutely murdered the character of Jaime, and left us with pathetic Larry, I see this as a chance to reimagine the character and give him some actual purpose.

I agree - if Tyrion frees Jaime, he'd better plan to make a run for it himself. I also agree, wholeheartedly, that the show has been wasting Jaime terribly.

What I'm wondering is what this might tell us about the books. If Jaime is in fact drowned (nobody thinks this is likely, I don't either, but it's possible) then what does it mean for Jaime and Brienne's Stoneheart situation? I'm hoping against hope that they both survive that encounter, because of Jaime's prophetic dream about Brienne way back. If he's drowned, though, maybe that means he also dies in the books well before endgame.

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9 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Completely agree, Jaime had a clean (yet totally foolish) shot at killing her, he tried (I guess he didnt see the 30 ton dragon sitting next to her?) and he failed. She was open game, left herself vulnerable and he had the right to kill hr.  But that same argument holds true for Dany, that marching army was totally fair game. I'm already sick of everyone online saying what a monster she is for killing any enemy army, who had just slaughtered an enemy army (the Tyrells).

What she did was the best choice for her, Robb Stark wasn't afraid to trick and kill his enemy, neither was Tywin Lannister. She is showing her ability to reason, that she is NOT power-hungry crazed and that military vs civilians are 2 different things.

Jaime really showed what he was made of, there. He knew it was a long shot, but he had to take that shot, because of his sense of duty. I don't think that he had a death wish or anything like that. He's the guy who puts himself on the line for his people. So it's a good sign that they are back on track with his redemption arc.

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16 minutes ago, Weirdo said:

Jaime really showed what he was made of, there. He knew it was a long shot, but he had to take that shot, because of his sense of duty. I don't think that he had a death wish or anything like that. He's the guy who puts himself on the line for his people. So it's a good sign that they are back on track with his redemption arc.

It really does please me that they've finally started doing something with Jaime again. That last episode felt like the first since he helped free Tyrion that he really had an important purpose in an episode.

After all, with the amount they are paying Nikolaj Coster-Waldau per episode it's about time he's started earning his keep!

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On 7. 8. 2017 at 3:10 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So yeah Jon and Dany is going to happen looks like, She turned to him for advice yo! That was a big step, she was mad AF at Tyrion though, deservedly so, nothing he planned worked out at all.  I think he big time underestimated Euron was the main problem.

Dany totally made the right choice to light the marching army up from dragonback!! and I am so pumped Drogon destroyed that Bard/LOTR giant crossbow.  I dont think any of her dragons should die, they are one of the very few awesome things left on the show, please dont take them away!

Drogon just needs an enormous Valyrian Steel Breast plate :D

 

That was a seriously intense battle, I can't believe Jaime.

---I hope that wasn't Honor the horse that Drogon lit up at the end when Jaime Charged at Dany!!!!

 

 

Dragons has to and will die. Their purpose is clear, White Walkers as Jon alluded to something bigger and more important than killing the Lannisters or torching castles. Once White Walkers are defeated magic should for he most part leav Planetos.

Btw Jaime is not Dany's prisoner. Doubt it as he for sure was dragged by Bronn.

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I am wondering about AJT theory. did the new season make it more likely or less likely? 

It would be boring to see another hidden Targ. But there are indeed three dragons around to be claimed. Dany and Jon, and who should be the third? 

 

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15 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Dragons has to and will die. Their purpose is clear, White Walkers as Jon alluded to something bigger and more important than killing the Lannisters or torching castles. Once White Walkers are defeated magic should for he most part leav Planetos.

Btw Jaime is not Dany's prisoner. Doubt it as he for sure was dragged by Bronn.

Well I dont see hwy the dragons nee to die

Lol of course Jaime will be Dany's prisoner, she was standing right there, Jaime's entire army is destroyed, it was pretty much just Jaime and Bronn left (miraculously!). Even if Bronn does pull him out of the water, they will be standing 10 ft from Dany, I dont see her just letting them go.

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Well I dont see hwy the dragons nee to die

Lol of course Jaime will be Dany's prisoner, she was standing right there, Jaime's entire army is destroyed, it was pretty much just Jaime and Bronn left (miraculously!). Even if Bronn does pull him out of the water, they will be standing 10 ft from Dany, I dont see her just letting them go.

If Bronn can swim to the bottom of that lake, remove all Jaime's armor, his sword, and his gold hand, bring him to the surface, revive him if need be, and still sneak them away without being seen by a thousand or so people who saw them go down in the first place, then I will be... watching Game of Thrones, I guess.

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Well I dont see hwy the dragons nee to die

Lol of course Jaime will be Dany's prisoner, she was standing right there, Jaime's entire army is destroyed, it was pretty much just Jaime and Bronn left (miraculously!). Even if Bronn does pull him out of the water, they will be standing 10 ft from Dany, I dont see her just letting them go.

I have a feeling they are going to miraculously float downstream and escape.  But, maybe not.

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1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Well I dont see hwy the dragons nee to die

Lol of course Jaime will be Dany's prisoner, she was standing right there, Jaime's entire army is destroyed, it was pretty much just Jaime and Bronn left (miraculously!). Even if Bronn does pull him out of the water, they will be standing 10 ft from Dany, I dont see her just letting them go.

Because they were brought for one purpose and that is to defeat the white walkers and play a part in that war. Jon alluded to it, Kinvara called them a gift from Lord of Light. Magic will leave Planetos for the time being. I don't think purpose of the dragons is to be back permanently.

I know you are a fan of Jon and Dany being alive, with a kid, rule and dragons flying around. Let's call me very pessimistic on that. Not forcing my opinion on you but at this point I don't see much hope for that scenario.

About Jaime, let's just say I've heard few things(might be wrong). Not gonna say much more but Game Of Thrones sometimes skip the logic.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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56 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Because they were brought for one purpose and that is to defeat the white walkers and play a part in that war. Jon alluded to it, Kinvara called them a gift from Lord of Light. Magic will leave Planetos for the time being. I don't think purpose of the dragons is to be back permanently.

I know you are a fan of Jon and Dany being alive, with a kid, rule and dragons flying around. Let's call me very pessimistic on that. Not forcing my opinion on you but at this point I don't see much hope for that scenario.

About Jaime, let's just say I've heard few things(might be wrong). Not gonna say much more but Game Of Thrones sometimes skip the logic.

I also dont think all the direwolves will die either, Nor will the Red Priests all over the world lose their magic.

I dont see the point of these novels if Westeros does not have some semblance of normalcy and peace at the end. After the White Walkers are defeated, some stable people need to be ruling the kingdom, with children on the way that is the only way a peaceful future will be accomplished.  if Jon and Dany are not said rulers or if they cant have a kid, then we end the novels right where they started, with a rebellion and constant battle for the Throne. In a medieval society the monarchs must be able to have children or else they end and chaos ensues.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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3 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

I also dont think all the direwolves will die either, Nor will the Red Priests all over the world lose their magic.

I dont see the point of these novels if Westeros does not have some semblance of normalcy and peace at the end. After the White Walkers are defeated, some stable people need to be ruling the kingdom, with children on the way that is the only way a peaceful future will be accomplished.  if Jon and Dany are not said rulers or if they cant have a kid, then we end the novels right where they started, with a rebellion and constant battle for the Throne. In a medieval society the monarchs must be able to have children or else they end and chaos ensues.

Does post Whitewalker westeros have to be a kingdom?

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47 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Does post Whitewalker westeros have to be a kingdom?

It doesn't have to but history (Planetos history) proves that Westeros was better after the Targaryens united the kingdoms. Obviously they had problems in later years with tDoD, but Dany was right in the last episode when she said that the greatest time in history was when the Starks were Wardens of the North and allied with the Targaryens.  I dont know how you can really go backwards in progress........hey at least they aren't stuck with Trump ( I would prefer the White Walkers).

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I don't think magic would disappear completely, but it would decrease in intensity, as was foreshadowed by the warlocks at the HOTD. 

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