The Witcher on Netflix.

[David Selig]

The Nilfagiardians are presented very negatively in the books (at least in the short stories and the first two novels I've read), they commit mass atrocities pretty regularly which are seen as extraordinary brutal even in the already pretty grimdark setting, they re always the invaders for no other reasons except that they want to conquer, they practice slavery widely unlike the Northern realms, they are very treacherous... All of this will be seen as really problematic by the usual suspects in the media and Twitter/Facebook, and I don't see any showrunner in the current climate willing to take the risk, especially when they will also anger a lot of the fans of the original books this way with the changes.

[mormont]

Sure. But:

- it's fairly unlikely to start with that the series is going to present the Nilfgaardians as one-dimensionally bad, since that is not in vogue. In particular, there's no way that traits like 'treacherous' are going to be attributed to Nilfgaardians as a whole, as if it's a cultural trait. Emhyr himself, maybe. 

- it's easy to conclude that at least some of the negative portrayal in the books is bias by Dandelion or other sympathetic characters in the narrative. Other bits can simply be ignored or removed. 

- contrary to assumptions, you're not automatically going to get slammed for showing a minority culture doing a bad thing. You would get slammed for doing a story where the Northerners are all objectively good and the minority Nilfgaardians are all objectively bad, but the chances of that are slim to none. You'd also get slammed for making the Nilfgaardians a thinly-disguised ethnic stereotype, but that's not likely either. 

- in any case, a BAME Ciri doesn't automatically mean the series is going to be presenting minorities as evil. Going from the former to the latter requires several enormous leaps. 

[Myrddin]

On 9/8/2018 at 1:33 PM, Triskjavikson said:

Quick question for the hive mind:  are these books good enough that I should read them and then be excited for this show?  thanks

 

On 9/8/2018 at 1:39 PM, 3CityApache said:

Yes. Just do it in the correct order.

Don't do it like I did... I tried starting with "book 1" was completely lost. Realized there was another book first. Read that not realizing it was a book of short stories that were kind of linked, but really didn't lead to a complete story (if that makes sense). At this point I intended to read "book 2" (as I had already read "book 1" but learned there was another book of short stories set before book one.

Apparently the confusion comes from how they were translated and published in English. Get the correct order before trying to read these. I still haven't bothered starting the second book of short stories, even though it's on my nightstand... Might just wait for the show.

[3CityApache]

Correct order of reading witcher  books was published in Sapkowski thread in Literature several times, but here you go:

#1 The Last Wish (first short stories collection)

#2 Sword of Destiny (second short stories collection)

#3 Blood of Elves (novel #1)

#4 Time of Contempt (novel #2)

#5 Baptism of Fire (novel #3)

#6 The Tower of the Swallow (novel #4)

#7 The Lady of the Lake (novel #5)

Plus standalone novel Season of Storms, set between The Last Wish short stories.

[Clueless Northman]

12 hours ago, mormont said:

 Emhyr isn't a savage, noble or otherwise. To the extent that Nilfgaard are the bad guys, we get that view from people who want to be independent - they're not presented as inherently evil. They're a wealthy, civilised, successful society. 

Nilfgaard is both. It's the wealthiest and probably the most advanced civilization around, and it's also a heavy-handed imperialistic empire whose conquering ways come quite close to the Mongols or 3rd Reich.

Granted, not all were bad or evil and not all Nilfgaardians will be portrayed as such, just as a fair share of the Northerners are depicted in a dubious, grey or just plain bad way (I'm still pondering if the games aren't even worse - I can hardly pick a good side whenever I have to choose lesser evils). Heck, even Emhyr had his reasons, though the way he tries to achieve his goals are still awful, and it takes a lot of time to see what his reasons might be. That said, the overall feeling will be the Nilfgaard is a key antagonist and mostly the bad guy, since the series will be mostly seen through Northern eyes.

[Theda Baratheon]

On 9/8/2018 at 10:03 PM, Clueless Northman said:

Exactly what I was thinking. Either the North (Calanthe) is Black - Cavill's casting implies it's not - or Nilfgaard (Duny/Emhyr) is, in which case the show would have the unintended consequence of portraying a Black-led (or possibly Arab) invasion of beleaguered White North (unintended, because as far as I can see, the show isn't made by BNP, Pegida or Swedish Democrats).
Or they just forget the whole family aspect of Cira and Emhyr.
Or they assume the whole world is a mix of races everywhere, which would be a tad unrealistic (specially considering the books), but I don't think such considerations ever stopped some people. So, I assume that's the angle they're aiming for.

Then of course, as Theda said, there's the obvious fact that Ciri has a strong element of "blood of elves" in her. Maybe they will go with mostly white humans and black elves? (though elves aren't exactly the noble good guys of most fantasy, they're quite often gray bordering dark side)

That said, if they only did the short stories, that wouldn't be a problem at all, because Nilfgaard is quite a non-entity except for the very last one. But if Ciri is supposed to have a major role, then it indeed means they plan to do the whole arc. She's only adult (well, late teen really) in the very end of the short stories timeline.

Oh well, still waiting for the casting of other key characters, Yennifer, Triss, the Emperor, Ciri, Dandelion to begin with - both to see how they intend to portray the race/diversity angle and more importantly if the actors will be any good.

Hmmmm kinda think black elves would be pretty neat

the more I think about it really the less of an issue I think it is. I’m too focused on the game as I haven’t read the books and the show will have nothing to do with the game so I’m sure they’ll make it work. 

 

[The Anti-Targ]

Firstly, Emhyr can still be white, and Nilfgaard (Rome, Athens?) be a European origin empire. Ciri's mother can be from a dark skinned corner of the empire and that would be perfectly fine. Or are we going to insist that the Nilfgaardian emperor must marry / breed within his own race? I thought that royals marrying / breeding with conquered parts of empires was one way of maintain relations and order with those conquered parts.

I've pretty much decided that I will not care one bit if a (US) minority race actor is cast to play a fictional role. Even if said cultures are meant to be analogous to particular parts of our own world that are indigenous white. Or even if described in original material as explicitly white. It's an adaptation ffs, adaptations depart from original material a great deal, why is the race of a character off limits from adaptational departure. The author of the books wrote the books in a particular context, creative vision and perspective. The writers and producers of the show live in a different context and have their own perspectives and creative vision.

Knowing there are sensitive white people who do get upset about these things, it's possible that it would have cause less backlash to cast non-white female actors in a role other than Ciri. But if you want to do representation justice, then it's Ciri or Yennifer or Triss. And all 3 of those characters are likely to get white snowflakes all aghast if the actors aren't white. I kind of would prefer Geralt to have mix race romances over Ciri being the non-white character. Though having a mixed race father-daughter kind of vibe between Geralt and Ciri is also cool, probably less commonly seen in TVs and movies than mixed race romances.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 9/8/2018 at 11:33 AM, Triskjavikson said:

Quick question for the hive mind:  are these books good enough that I should read them and then be excited for this show?  thanks

I really liked them, but I think they're kind of hit or miss for people. The first two short story books didn't seem appealing to me, but they are probably my two favorite books in the series now. I just think the style and approach is so different than American writers, sometimes people have a hard time engaging. The books are also a lot different than the game (don't know if you played that). The game does a lot of things in the spirit of the book, but I think some game characters don't fully match their book counterparts, and the books are not action heavy like the games can be.

[Calibandar]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:42 AM, The Anti-Targ said:

I was on board with Cavill from minute 1. So I'm happy with the casting.

Same here, very good actor, really like the look of him and he was the most interesting character in Tudors.

[David Selig]

10 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Firstly, Emhyr can still be white, and Nilfgaard (Rome, Athens?) be a European origin empire. Ciri's mother can be from a dark skinned corner of the empire and that would be perfectly fine. Or are we going to insist that the Nilfgaardian emperor must marry / breed within his own race? I thought that royals marrying / breeding with conquered parts of empires was one way of maintain relations and order with those conquered parts.

Ciri's mother is from Cintra which is one of the Northern kingdoms, and that can't be changed without radically altering the whole main plot of the series. And I doubt they would make the Northerners mostly black after the casting of Geralt.

[Luzifer's right hand]

3 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Same here, very good actor, really like the look of him and he was the most interesting character in Tudors.

I saw MI:Fallout recently and he looked great in the fight scenes. He is great at projecting a "don't fuck with me" vibe. 

[NorthernXY]

On 9/8/2018 at 5:25 AM, red snow said:

I haven't read the books *although they are starting to crawl up the read list" but is there anything in there that mandates all the people of that race must be homogenously coloured? Unless said race is all about purity and the extermination of "others" i don't see why a nation has to be one colour. British and Americans aren't all white/black/etc but a mixture. There's plenty of medieval/ancient cultures that were diverse as well so the argument of "it's medieval fantasy" doesn't hold either. So unless there's a fundamental reason in the world-building I really don't think casting of one character necessarily dictates all the others.

Wow...   You haven't realized that races can't have babies of different races yet and that's the reason they're homogeneously colored?

Everything you said has multiple layers of stupidity.  Name five medieval European cultures that were diverse.

I mean... just... wow. 

[john]

England, France, Spain, Netherlands, Scandinavia. (etc)

You’ve heard of the Vikings, right? You’ve heard of the Jewish diaspora? You’ve heard of Muslim Spain right next to France?

Denying cultural and racial diversity in medieval Europe is kind of a neo Nazi move.

[NorthernXY]

On 9/8/2018 at 9:50 PM, Summer Bass said:

Making the elves black would be pretty interesting and new. It would add some definite subtext to their plight in the story. 

I don't think making Ciri black or brown would be a huge problem. The Nilfgaardian empire is supposed to be huge and diverse anyways. 

 

How would that give it subtext?  Also, black elves is an example of culturally appropriation of greater Germanic/Norse culture.

Why would a black or brown girl be in the story?  The Witcher books take place in a land where everybody is called "Nordling", basically the north of the world.  You can invent new places or go to previously mentioned, but black Ciri would have no reason to be in the north, she'd be in the south.

[NorthernXY]

16 minutes ago, john said:

England, France, Spain, Netherlands, Scandinavia. (etc)

You’ve heard of the Vikings, right? You’ve heard of the Jewish diaspora? You’ve heard of Muslim Spain right next to France?

Denying cultural and racial diversity in medieval Europe is kind of a neo Nazi move.

Medieval England was dominated by Anglo-Saxon culture so completely there are hardly any regularly used Celtic words in English.  Scandinavians settled in mostly northern England for a time, but on command the English massacred them all over the lands.  There were hardly any Jews in pre-Norman England, Henry III made them wear Stars of David (tying it back to you implying I'm a neo Nazi) and after Edward I there weren't any for near 350 years.

France was a collection of fiefdoms that eventually formed a kingdom with stable borders.

There is no such thing as medieval Spain so I'm guessing you're referring to Iberia which really hated cultural diversity so much they had an inquisition.

Netherlands?  WTF?  You just listed two countries as being diverse in a time when they didn't exist.  You're obviously referring to the modern Netherlands and assuming it and its diversity have always existed.  The Netherlands have been inhabited by western Germanic tribes since the time of Caesar and until about 1150 everybody more or less spoke the same basic language.  How can something that is almost the opposite of diverse be an example of diversity?

Scandinavia, three (four) in a row.  You have to be trolling me, no one is this incompetent.  Everybody spoke roughly the same language.  Sami are a distinct people predating North Germanic cultures but they mostly lived in the far north and didn't have much interaction with the people from the south.

I've heard of "vikings" and you have no clue what you're talking about by mentioning it.  You may as well have typed adventurer or some other type of profession/activity because it most certainly wasn't a people or culture.

Jewish diaspora were constantly the targets of persecution, forced out of countries, and resided almost exclusively in larger towns and cities.

Muslim Spain never existed, you're referring to Al-Andalus which was still majority non-Berber or non-Arabic.  It did have a large amount of Jews which is a side effect of Berbers and Arabs not having a history of education and administration.

I never denied "racial" diversity in Medieval Europe though it really didn't have much as the vast, vast majority of people were some type of "white".

Relating things you don't like or disagree with as (neo) Nazi in character is a common tactic of the intellectually bankrupt, which is evident when you listed countries as being diverse that didn't exist and weren't diverse when they eventually did.  I'm sure in your mind I sound like a neo Nazi but judging by how little you know of European history and logic, it's safe to assume you don't actually know anything about Nazis other than anybody who disagrees with you is one.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Its implied the humans in the witcher world are future Earthers who fled earth after screwing it up, so they likely would be racially diverse.

[red snow]

6 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Wow...   You haven't realized that races can't have babies of different races yet and that's the reason they're homogeneously colored?

Everything you said has multiple layers of stupidity.  Name five medieval European cultures that were diverse.

I mean... just... wow. 

I was talking about nations/cultures not races. Are you trying to tell me that British people can only have children of one race? Or northern Americans. 

Then you mention cultures so maybe you need to clarify what you are talking about as you seem to be mixing race, culture and nation quite freely throughout your rant.

I made it pretty clear I hadn't read the books and did not know whether they were races, nations or even species.

I also don't appreciate being called stupid. Everything you said offended me on multiple levels.

 

[Spring Bass]

3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Its implied the humans in the witcher world are future Earthers who fled earth after screwing it up, so they likely would be racially diverse.

You beat me to it. This is not medieval Europe - it's an alternate fantasy world where humans showed up 1500 years earlier due to a magical event. 

They don't really even need to try and explain it, just make sure that at least one of Ciri's parents is cast non-white if they cast a non-white actress for the part.  

[mormont]

5 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Medieval England was dominated by Anglo-Saxon culture so completely there are hardly any regularly used Celtic words in English.  [snip ravings]

You seem to be under the impression that you know something about medieval history, but unfortunately your post is so full of errors that I don't even have time to list them, let alone correct them. Even the bits you got right, you got wrong: viking is indeed an activity rather than a culture, but it is also one found only within a particular culture, so the distinction isn't relevant to your argument.

That medieval Europe was more diverse than commonly imagined is something that scholars regard as simply a fact. The people who argue against it, are doing so to serve a modern political agenda. 

In any case, the world of the Witcher can be as ethnically diverse as the series creators want it to be and you can howl about it if you want: all you'll be doing is exercising your lungs. 

[The BlackBear]

The UK was very much not a homogenous 'race'

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2015-03-19-who-do-you-think-you-really-are-genetic-map-british-isles#

That's a very in depth study showing how specific groups were in the late 19th century, particularly of interest Cornwall and Devon are genetically distinct from one another. There is no one 'Celtic' group and in fact they're some of the most different from each other.

Certainly invading groups intermarried with the indigenous populations: Anglo-Saxons in the South-East. The Norwegians also inter-married on Orkney, but the Danish didn't in Northumbria.

Big Image:

Spoiler

https://www.nature.com/polopoly_fs/7.24538.1426765655!/image/1.17136.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/1.17136.jpg

I'm not familiar with the Witcher (though I'm definitely considering reading the books now.) So don't know much about the lore, but it seems perfectly reasonable to say there's a population of dark skinned characters who have maintained their identity, pretty much anywhere in the world.