Dany somehow knows what molten gold tastes like...

[ravenous reader]

49 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I'm amazed that this thread is already five pages long trying to over-analyse a cool-sounding figure of speech. It's like saying something tastes like summer. What does summer taste like? Fruit and warmth and balmy nights, with a hint of coconut.

What does molten gold taste like? Probably warm, and smooth, and rich.

Five goddam pages.

I'm going to defend @40 Thousand Skeletons here.  It's a fascinating topic with many implications.  I don't think anyone on this forum is in a position to officiously tell any other user about what and what not to take literally, nor how many pages are worth devoting to a specific topic.  We are reading a fantasy novel in which the metaphorical is frequently magically 'made flesh,' so the point brought up by the OP is certainly worthy of discussion.  Officially, I was supposed to have left the thread in a huff after telling off the OP for being a 'sweet peter' in no such uncertain terms, so without me from now on perhaps the thread will slow down to your satisfaction.  (I tend to write very long comments, which must annoy you no end, of which I've taken note...).

Beyond ascribing vague platitudes like 'probably warm, smooth and rich,' what's obvious is that 'molten gold' is the way her brother was murdered, and that it's the last taste on her tongue, the lingering impression -- and that is the point you are supposed to get, and ponder the significance of.

[maudisdottir]

I have neither the power nor the inclination to tell people what they can and can't discuss. I can, however, give my opinion, which is that it's a huge stretch to ascribe some of the things people are in this thread e.g. Dany had a telekinetic link to Viserys at the time of his death. Also using words like "undeniable" when proposing a theory.

MY opinion is that people are overthinking this.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

53 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I'm going to defend @40 Thousand Skeletons here.  It's a fascinating topic with many implications.  I don't think anyone on this forum is in a position to officiously tell any other user about what and what not to take literally, nor how many pages are worth devoting to a specific topic.  We are reading a fantasy novel in which the metaphorical is frequently magically 'made flesh,' so the point brought up by the OP is certainly worthy of discussion.  Officially, I was supposed to have left the thread in a huff after telling off the OP for being a 'sweet peter' in no such uncertain terms, so without me from now on perhaps the thread will slow down to your satisfaction.  (I tend to write very long comments, which must annoy you no end, of which I've taken note...).

Beyond ascribing vague platitudes like 'probably warm, smooth and rich,' what's obvious is that 'molten gold' is the way her brother was murdered, and that it's the last taste on her tongue, the lingering impression -- and that is the point you are supposed to get, and ponder the significance of.

Thank you for your defense

I always appreciate civility on the forum. We can be friends  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

40 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

I have neither the power nor the inclination to tell people what they can and can't discuss. I can, however, give my opinion, which is that it's a huge stretch to ascribe some of the things people are in this thread e.g. Dany had a telekinetic link to Viserys at the time of his death. Also using words like "undeniable" when proposing a theory.

MY opinion is that people are overthinking this.

I was using the word "undeniable" sarcastically. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Obviously this theory has not been confirmed and you can deny it all day long.  

But why do you think it is a huge stretch for Dany to telepathically link to Viserys in that moment? Telepathic connections exist and are all over the place in ASOIAF

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But why do you think it is a huge stretch for Dany to telepathically link to Viserys in that moment? Telepathic connections exist and are all over the place in ASOIAF

Because there's nothing in the text to suggest it. Does Dany ever mention anything about experiencing how he felt?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Because there's nothing in the text to suggest it. Does Dany ever mention anything about experiencing how he felt?

Yes...

She remembers the taste of molten gold, something she has never tasted but Viserys did.

[maudisdottir]

But you're making that assumption. She never says that.

And nobody has addressed "and none of them". How does that work in this metaphor-free passage?

[White Ravens]

I realize this is rather pedantic of me to say but gold is inert and has no taste, at least at room temperature.  I have a gold crown on one of my molars for that reason.  Does molten gold have a taste?  I don't actually know and neither did Viserys.  He had molten gold poured over his head, not into his mouth.  And as I mentioned up thread I really doubt that anyone can taste anything that is over a thousand degrees in temperature let alone a substance that is known to be inert.  Tasting molten gold is not part of the human experience.  Tasting molten gold during an hallucinogenic experience is just GRRM showing us that Dany's vision is getting fantastical.

[Traverys]

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Except that it is clearly not a figure of speech. Saying she tasted anise, honey, cream, drogo seed, red meat, and hot blood does not involve any figures of speech. Those are things she has tasted. And while Dany directly has never tasted molten gold, it just so happens that Viserys did.

Don't get me wrong, if there was no scene in the books with a character literally tasting molten gold, I would assume it is just a figure of speech. But that scene does exist, so I interpret it to be another taste she knows in a list of known, metaphor-free tastes.

 

Quote

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them … and then the glass was empty.

Aren't you leaving out mother's milk? You've been doing that for at least a couple of posts now. So whose teat has she been suckling on? Or are we suggesting some auto-suckling on her part while pregnant with Rhaego? Also, ink and spoiled meat.

Most importantly, the use of the word "like" makes all the difference. "Taste like" means it's only a comparison... Similes, a device of figurative language, are comparisons using like or as. 

[Amris]

It's probably a comparison slightly gone wrong and shouldn't be understood literally.

As far as I can tell gold has no taste at all since it hardly reacts with anything chemically. Also gold fillings for teeth have no taste. The 'molten gold' comparison somehow implies something heavy and precious on the tongue though and I would guess that's why it appealed to GRRM as a picture.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Traverys said:

 

Aren't you leaving out mother's milk? You've been doing that for at least a couple of posts now. So whose teat has she been suckling on? Or are we suggesting some auto-suckling on her part while pregnant with Rhaego? Also, ink and spoiled meat.

Most importantly, the use of the word "like" makes all the difference. "Taste like" means it's only a comparison... Similes, a device of figurative language, are comparisons using like or as. 

Sure, I guess I left out mother's milk because I wasn't actually looking at the list. Doesn't matter. And are you kidding me? I assume she tasted mother's milk when she was fucking infant. Not her mother mind you but a mother.

The word "like" does not in any way make a difference. How would describe the taste of something without using the word like? For example, if I tried some frog meat for the first time and said, "Mmmmm, that tastes like chicken!" That is not a figure of speech. The meaning of that statement is that the frog literally, not figuratively, tastes like chicken.

And ink and spoiled meat are not part of the list. That is the real taste of shade of the evening, before it takes effect.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I realize this is rather pedantic of me to say but gold is inert and has no taste, at least at room temperature.  I have a gold crown on one of my molars for that reason.  Does molten gold have a taste?  I don't actually know and neither did Viserys.  He had molten gold poured over his head, not into his mouth.  And as I mentioned up thread I really doubt that anyone can taste anything that is over a thousand degrees in temperature let alone a substance that is known to be inert.  Tasting molten gold is not part of the human experience.  Tasting molten gold during an hallucinogenic experience is just GRRM showing us that Dany's vision is getting fantastical.

Yes, gold doesn't really have a taste, and you can't actually taste anything once your tongue is 1000 degrees, but it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM wasn't super concerned about those details.

As for the gold going into Viserys mouth, please see these 2 quotes. First from the HOTU:

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

And then later in ADWD Dany X:

Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

Again, if GRRM was trying to show that Dany was tripping, why was molten gold allegedly the only metaphorical thing in the list?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

7 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But you're making that assumption. She never says that.

And nobody has addressed "and none of them". How does that work in this metaphor-free passage?

I didn't assume anything. She definitely listed a bunch of tastes, and molten gold was definitely in there.

And actually I did address the "and none of them" responding to someone else. Since you obviously missed it, I'll just copy and paste it here:

I think you are totally misinterpreting what "and none of them" means. You seem to think the line means:

It was all the tastes she had ever known, and all the tastes she didn't know.

And then you are making the case that "molten gold" is included in the tastes she didn't know. But that is not what the line means at all. It actually means:

It was all the tastes she had ever known, and at the same time it tasted like none of those tastes.

Which makes sense, because obviously it doesn't really taste like all those things because that is just the tripping effect.

 

No offense, but is English your first language? Because the meaning of "none of them" is quite clear. The word "them" refers directly to "all the tastes she had ever known". It is not a metaphor. It is literal.

[White Ravens]

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, gold doesn't really have a taste, and you can't actually taste anything once your tongue is 1000 degrees, but it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM wasn't super concerned about those details.

As for the gold going into Viserys mouth, please see these 2 quotes. First from the HOTU:

Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

And then later in ADWD Dany X:

Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

Again, if GRRM was trying to show that Dany was tripping, why was molten gold allegedly the only metaphorical thing in the list?

Clearly you believe that Dany had some kind of psychic or empathic experience with Viserys when he died.  Clearly I don't think that is the case.  Circular argument.

The first of the quotes you just provided to support your argument are from events that take place after those described in your opening post.  In the first one she is deeper into her hallucinogenic experience at the HOTU and completely tripping out.  The second one is from a dream she has later.  I see them as an indication of the guilt she feels for the horrific nature of her brother's death. 

I'm sure you find my take on this as off the mark as I find yours so I'm out. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

30 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Clearly you believe that Dany had some kind of psychic or empathic experience with Viserys when he died.  Clearly I don't think that is the case.  Circular argument.

The first of the quotes you just provided to support your argument are from events that take place after those described in your opening post.  In the first one she is deeper into her hallucinogenic experience at the HOTU and completely tripping out.  The second one is from a dream she has later.  I see them as an indication of the guilt she feels for the horrific nature of her brother's death. 

I'm sure you find my take on this as off the mark as I find yours so I'm out. 

LOL no offense but I don't think you know what a "circular argument" means. This is just a regular argument.

Yes, those visions are totally indications of guilt, at least in part. But the point I was making was simply to show that molten gold did in fact go into Viserys's mouth when he was crowned.

[maudisdottir]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:23 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

No offense, but is English your first language? Because the meaning of "none of them" is quite clear. The word "them" refers directly to "all the tastes she had ever known". It is not a metaphor. It is literal.

English is my first and only fluent language and I understand it quite well, thanks very much. Nice and patronising of you.

How is that literal? "It was all the tastes she had ever known" - that's literal? How can someone, in one sip, distinguish every flavour she had ever tasted?

"and none of them" - again, how is that literal? If it was none of the tastes she had ever known, she would not recognise them.

My point is - it's NOT LITERAL! It's a trippy hallucinogenic ride she's going on, and the tastes she's experiencing are bringing up a lot of feelings, memories, emotions etc. It doesn't mean "she skinchanged Viserys at the time of his death so she knows what he tasted when he died."

Which is not to say the sorcerers in the HotU aren't giving her some kind of insight into Viserys' feelings - AFTER the event.

Also re mother's milk - she wouldn't know what her mother's milk tasted like, because her mother died in childbirth. If she did feed Dany, it would have been only briefly, and Dany wouldn't know the LITERAL taste of her mother's milk because whoever nursed her afterwards wasn't HER mother.

[sgtpimenta]

On Invalid Date at 1:27 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Similarly, when Bran eats weirwood paste he first thinks it tastes bitter (which is likely the real taste) but after swallowing it lists off things he has literally tasted: It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him.

I sure hope you are not implying that Bran has literally tasted a kiss from his mother. This is not Kingslanding, after all...

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

English is my first and only fluent language and I understand it quite well, thanks very much. Nice and patronising of you.

How is that literal? "It was all the tastes she had ever known" - that's literal? How can someone, in one sip, distinguish every flavour she had ever tasted?

"and none of them" - again, how is that literal? If it was none of the tastes she had ever known, she would not recognise them.

My point is - it's NOT LITERAL! It's a trippy hallucinogenic ride she's going on, and the tastes she's experiencing are bringing up a lot of feelings, memories, emotions etc. It doesn't mean "she skinchanged Viserys at the time of his death so she knows what he tasted when he died."

Which is not to say the sorcerers in the HotU aren't giving her some kind of insight into Viserys' feelings - AFTER the event.

Also re mother's milk - she wouldn't know what her mother's milk tasted like, because her mother died in childbirth. If she did feed Dany, it would have been only briefly, and Dany wouldn't know the LITERAL taste of her mother's milk because whoever nursed her afterwards wasn't HER mother.

Sorry for being patronizing, but it is literal. She is describing a literal drug/telepathy-induced experience. It may not be an experience we can relate to in real life, but she is still describing something literally, not metaphorically. If Dany took a bite of a peach and said it tasted like sunshine, that would be a metaphor. The line you referenced is literal. How can someone distinguish every flavor she had ever tasted? Because it is a fantasy novel, and some fantasy shit is going down in a literal fashion.

And the tastes themselves are all things Dany has literally tasted. There is nothing metaphorical about the taste of honey, anise, cream, mother's milk, Drogo's seed, red meat, or hot blood. THEREFORE, I deduce that the taste of molten gold is also meant literally.

As for the mother's milk thing. Like I already said before, as long as she had any woman's milk as a baby, that counts as mother's milk. It doesn't have to be her mother. I didn't sample different moms when I was a baby myself, but I am betting their milk all tastes similar.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

I sure hope you are not implying that Bran has literally tasted a kiss from his mother. This is not Kingslanding, after all...

LOL no, just that he has at least literally had the experience of kissing his mother, while Dany was not the person who directly "experienced" molten gold

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Sorry for being patronizing, but it is literal. She is describing a literal drug/telepathy-induced experience. It may not be an experience we can relate to in real life, but she is still describing something literally, not metaphorically. If Dany took a bite of a peach and said it tasted like sunshine, that would be a metaphor. The line you referenced is literal. How can someone distinguish every flavor she had ever tasted? Because it is a fantasy novel, and some fantasy shit is going down in a literal fashion.

And the tastes themselves are all things Dany has literally tasted. There is nothing metaphorical about the taste of honey, anise, cream, mother's milk, Drogo's seed, red meat, or hot blood. THEREFORE, I deduce that the taste of molten gold is also meant literally.

As for the mother's milk thing. Like I already said before, as long as she had any woman's milk as a baby, that counts as mother's milk. It doesn't have to be her mother. I didn't sample different moms when I was a baby myself, but I am betting their milk all tastes similar.  

I think we are working from two very different interpretations of "none of them".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're assuming that "it was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them" means "it was all the tastes she had ever known AS WELL AS none of them" ie it was a bunch of tastes she knew, plus a bunch she didn't.

Whereas I'm taking it to mean something along the lines of "it was all the tastes she had ever known, yet at the same time they were all unrecognisable". Which fits right in with her trippy, drug-induced, non-literal hallucinations.