Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

[Sly Wren]

On September 14, 2018 at 1:28 PM, St Daga said:

Robert eventually felt bad about Lady's death, and how it affected both of Ned's girls, but it took awhile for him to admit it. But even in that decision, Robert was goaded by Cersei. At this point in the story, Ned is still blind to many of Robert's faults. It's possible he always was blinded to Robert's faults. Friendship and love can do that to people. But I still don't think it's Robert that Ned fears when it comes to Jon!

1. My apologies for the delay.

2. I agree that Robert seems mercurial enough that he can be talked down from crazy. BUT: Ned still calls his grief a madness. And Robert talks about killing Rhaegar in his dreams every night. That's still an overwhelming amount of grief and rage. Might he do something in the spur of the moment in that rage? Might Ned still wonder? Whether or not Ned's fears are fully warranted, Martin shows us that Ned has fears.

Plus there's the "Lyanna's death bed" factor--if she was afraid, especially after hearing what happened to Rhaegar's babies and Robert's reaction--Ned really might be keeping the secret because she begged him, whether he believes it was fully necessary or not.

On September 14, 2018 at 1:28 PM, St Daga said:

Perhaps it simply comes down to part of a promise that Ned made. And Ned's understanding of what a mother would do to protect her own children, even if it means a sacrifice of another woman's child. Catelyn is no shining paragon in this story! And she makes some terrible decisions, such as kidnapping Tyrion, or releasing Jaime to save her girls while she helps put a nail in the coffin of Robb's war effort.

Agreed--Ned might be willing to lie to Cat if Lyanna begged him to keep it secret from everyone. 

And no question Cat makes some "amazing" moves. I do wonder, though, if she and Ned would have been stronger if he could have brought himself to tell her the truth.

BTW: I loved your analysis of Jon's sword hand on TLH. My computer freezes/shuts down whenever I try to sign on there--so until I get a new computer and can comment: well done!

[St Daga]

4 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

1. My apologies for the delay.

2. I agree that Robert seems mercurial enough that he can be talked down from crazy. BUT: Ned still calls his grief a madness. And Robert talks about killing Rhaegar in his dreams every night. That's still an overwhelming amount of grief and rage. Might he do something in the spur of the moment in that rage? Might Ned still wonder? Whether or not Ned's fears are fully warranted, Martin shows us that Ned has fears.

No worries!  I have been following your Dayne/Dawn thread as well. Interesting discussion! You always seem to have interesting thoughts.

Yes, Ned does see Robert as having some "madness". I am probably wrong, but I always connect mad behavior and madness to the Targaryen blood. Of course, Robert has some of this, and Ned could fear what it might cause Robert to do. When our story starts, Ned hasn't seen Robert for a long time, but if he truly feared for Jon, wouldn't he at least want him away from Winterfell when the king visited? Now, I suppose it could be argued that Ned's worries came later, the more time he spent with Robert and seen of his existing hatred toward Rhaegar and the Targaryens. 

Madness is listed often in Eddard's early chapters in relation to Robert, little hints about being king and the flatters and fools that whisper to you driving a man mad, but even as early as Eddard II, on the kingsroad, Ned understands that Robert's feelings for the Targaryen's were like "a madness in him", and he doesn't act like this is sudden information, or even a reminder about an old fear. Ned know's how Robert feels, and probably has since the rebellion. 

Yes, Ned might wonder what Robert is capable of. But he also understands that Robert can, and has been, merciful in the past.  Mercy and madness, what an interesting character Robert is.

 

19 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And no question Cat makes some "amazing" moves. I do wonder, though, if she and Ned would have been stronger if he could have brought himself to tell her the truth.

Communication might have made all the difference. But we still don't know quite why Ned didn't tell Catelyn about Jon's origins, and until we know the whole story, I don't know if we will ever fully understand why Ned kept this from her. But we still have this from Ned, "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust".

 

22 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

BTW: I loved your analysis of Jon's sword hand on TLH. My computer freezes/shuts down whenever I try to sign on there--so until I get a new computer and can comment: well done!

Thank you! I love the details of the text, and working through what they could mean. And even if I end up flat wrong on most things, it's still fun to sift through the books. One way or another, one sword or another, the text seems to be setting Jon's sword hand up as pretty darn important.

[St Daga]

On 9/15/2018 at 12:10 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

On 9/14/2018 at 1:28 PM, St Daga said:

This is one of the reasons that cause me some doubt for either Arthur or Ashara to be Jon's parent. We know people in Dorne do not frown on bastards like the rest of the people in the 7K seem to.

Good point, i've always like the idea better of Dany being the child of Ashara and that the lemon tree's were at Starfall or near abouts in Dorne. 

Sorry, I didn't respond. I missed this post somehow.

Jon certainly does carry star imagery and dawn imagery around him, and the text brings our attention to his sword hand A LOT. I don't count him out completely as being of Dayne blood, but I do doubt he is Rhaegar's son.

As to Daenerys, there is also quite a bit that hints about her having some Dayne blood, as well. She has much star imagery, but she also carries some Stark imagery. Mostly though, it is through her story that we hear about Rhaegar. Sometimes I think I will be flat out in disbelief if Rhaegar doesn't turn out to be Dany's father. I think Ashara is a great candidate to be her mother, but I am recently seeing Lyanna is a possibility too, more than I had previously thought. I don't really favor the idea of any R+L child so part of that might be my own mental block.

As to the lemon tree hints about Dany, I don't tie those specifically to Dorne like so many people do. Lemon tree's can grow in pots or in glass gardens, so I don't see this as a "Dorne only" thing. Lemons all seem to be tied in the story to some type of bitterness or sourness. sweet on top, but bitter at its heart. Lemons have to be sweetened with sugar to make Sansa's lemon cakes. So sugar is needed to make lemon palatable. So, I have wondered if the lemon tree isn't a metaphor to link Dany's memories of her past, the red door, to something bitter that needed sweetening. Now, in another 6 months, I might change my mind completely on this...

In Game, lemons are tied to Dany, to Sansa and to Sam, which is an interesting combination. Arya is also linked to lemons, but not until she is starving on the streets of Kings Landing, begging for food, that she wants a lemon. Is she looking to stick her head in the clouds, like Sansa often does, like Dany might emulate her red door/lemon dream "happy place" or Sam thinks fondly of his time at Horn Hill when Randyll isn't tormenting him and trying to make him a warrior. One thing that is interesting about Arya, is that even though she would love a lemon cake, she doesn't think the bowl of brown is that bad. Arya is willing to accept what she can get even if it's the reality of mystery meat in a bowl of brown, while Sansa seems stuck on lemon cakes with her head in the clouds. I am not sure that this lemon imagery bodes well for Dany. Sam, a bit like Arya, also seems to put the lemon's behind him.

Another very odd tie I see to lemons is Dany's remembrance of lemons and red doors as "home" and her memories of Ser Willem Darry as a "great bear of a man". We have another "bear" in our story, Jeor Mormont, who is linked to lemons. He drinks lemon in his breakfast bear each day, and says it's why his teeth are in good condition. I doubt this is a habit he started just since he came to the wall, so I wonder if this "bear" and "lemon" imagery doesn't tie Dany in some way to the Mormont's or Bear Island, although I can't quite figure it out. Jorah certainly has an interest in Daenerys.

[Ygrain]

On 9/14/2018 at 6:31 PM, St Daga said:

Jon seems to have more Arthur Dayne imagery about him than he has Rhaegar imagery!

That dream about wearing an armour of black ice doesn't exactly scream Dayne.

On 9/14/2018 at 6:31 PM, St Daga said:

The connection then between Lyanna and Barra's mother is that Robert is the father of the child that Ned is promising to protect, in both cases, which is what trigger's Ned's memory. I don't necessarily believe this is the case, but I can see the implication in the text.

Nonsense. The similarity is the promise and the mother's response to it, the identity of the father is irrelevant to it:

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

“I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”
She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. 

Also, Barra is so very young, a child-woman. That is bound to trigger Ned, as well.

 

On 9/14/2018 at 9:28 PM, St Daga said:

Well Jon has repetitive dreams of the crypts, and he has this dream several times before he tells Sam about it. We know Jon has been in the crypts of Winterfell, so some of his dream elements are accurate, while some might change depending on the activities in Jon's everyday world. The crypt dreams seem to evolve, so they are different but remain "the same" in some sense. For instance, when Jon is walking with a crutch in real life, he is hobbling on a crutch in his dreams. So everyday occurrences do alter a repetitive dream. As far as we know, in Jon's real life, the Kings of Winter have not grabbed swords or stumbled out of their graves. It's all twisted up together, dream and reality.

Your argument is largely irrelevant, I'm afraid, as Jon's dreams do not reflect on any real-life event, nor do they contain memories "as it had been in life".

On 9/14/2018 at 9:28 PM, St Daga said:

Yes, the idea of promises, blood and roses are mentioned in Ned's first memory of Lyanna, but none of those things directly tie to the toj from the dream.

That memory with promises, blood and roses is of Lyanna's death. The dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, it features blue roses petals and his response "I promise" to her calling - in other words, the dream is connected to Lyanna's death, as well. And since Ned dreams repeatedly about ToJ, the three white knights and Lyanna's death, those three things are connected. Two out of those three things are confirmed by his memories and I see no reason why the third thing should be disconnected. If Lyanna was never there, then the name "tower of joy" needs to be explained, we still don't know where Lyanna died and why the three KG hung out in the middle of nowhere or why Ned considered necessary to fight them.

On 9/14/2018 at 9:28 PM, St Daga said:

We don't have a location for the toj being in Dorne in anything but Ned's dream. I would bet money this showdown did not happen in Dorne.

Localising the scene comes in one of the "as it had been in life" paragraphs, so I don't see what makes you think the location is false. - Though, you are right - it wasn't in Dorne but before it.

On 9/14/2018 at 9:28 PM, St Daga said:

All Ned tells us is that Martyn Cassel is buried "far to the south".

The location of ToJ had already been stated, so no need to repeat it. He then goes on "Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.", by which he elaborates on the content of the dream without mentioning any discrepancy or problem with the location, so I don't see anything that would make the information from the dream invalid.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 9/13/2018 at 11:36 AM, John Suburbs said:

This is assuming that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's abduction or was with her at any time during her captivity. The only reason all of this has been pinned on Rhaegar is that some unknown person rode up to Brandon and told him that this was all Rhaegar's doing. But there is really no evidence that he was involved at all.

That's an insane and baseless claim to make.

Robert speaks to Ned of Lyanna being in Rhaegar's possession, and they didn't hear that through Brandon.

Bran believes Rhaegar carried Lyanna off and raped her, and he didn't hear that through Brandon.

Daenerys speaks to Barristan of Rhaegar having stolen Lyanna away from Robert, and they didn't hear that through Brandon.

Daenerys thinks Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint, and she didn't hear that through Brandon.

Maester Yandel says that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna and carried her off, and he didn't hear that through Brandon.

[John Suburbs]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's an insane and baseless claim to make.

Robert speaks to Ned of Lyanna being in Rhaegar's possession, and they didn't hear that through Brandon.

Bran believes Rhaegar carried Lyanna off and raped her, and he didn't hear that through Brandon.

Daenerys speaks to Barristan of Rhaegar having stolen Lyanna away from Robert, and they didn't hear that through Brandon.

Daenerys thinks Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint, and she didn't hear that through Brandon.

Maester Yandel says that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna and carried her off, and he didn't hear that through Brandon.

The only source for this story is some nameless, faceless person who rode up to Brandon on the kingsroad. There are no surviving eyewitnesses to this kidnapping that we know of.

So Robert, Ned, Bran, Dany, even Barry and Yandel, only know what they've been told, and that story probably came from the MK.

So it is very likely that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were kidnapped, and that Rhaegar was forced to fight his father's enemies and keep his mouth shut or else lose his wife and children in some tortuous, agonizing fashion.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So it is very likely that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were kidnapped, and that Rhaegar was forced to fight his father's enemies and keep his mouth shut or else lose his wife and children in some tortuous, agonizing fashion

But it isn't very likely at all. In fact, it's extremely unlikely, and bordering on crackpot fanfic. And I say "bordering" b/c I'm having a good day. 

[Bael's Bastard]

22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The only source for this story is some nameless, faceless person who rode up to Brandon on the kingsroad. There are no surviving eyewitnesses to this kidnapping that we know of.

That is incorrect. We are told of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna by a few different sources, anti-Targaryens who believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and raped her, pro-Targaryens who believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because he loved her, and a Maester of the Citadel. What all these sources have in common is that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. And there is no shred of evidence that all of these sources got their information from whatever person or persons informed Brandon of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna.

Robert:

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves." (AGOT: Eddard II)

Bran:

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." (AGOT: Bran VII)

Daenerys:

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" (ASOS: Daenerys IV)

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her. (ADWD: Daenerys VII)

Maester Yandel:

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring)

What followed Prince Rhaegar's infamous abduction of Lyanna Stark was the ruin of House Targaryen. (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - Robert's Rebellion)

When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King's crimes. (TWOIAF: The North - The Lords of Winterfell)

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So Robert, Ned, Bran, Dany, even Barry and Yandel, only know what they've been told, and that story probably came from the MK.

MK?

As Maester Yandel's quote in TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring states, Rhaegar was joined by half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants when he set out on the journey in which he abducted Lyanna. He was not alone, and there is no reason to believe that Lyanna was alone when she was abducted.

That same section names Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton, Ser Richard Lonmouth, Prince Lewyn Martell, and Ser Arthur Dayne as Rhaegar's main supporters and friends at court, and repeats the tale that Rhaegar had urged Lord Whent to hold the Harrenhal Tourney using his brother Ser Oswell Whent as a go between.

We already knew from Ser Barristan Selmy that Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth were knighted by Rhaegar and remained his close companions, that Jon Connington was dead to Rhaegar as well, and that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's oldest friend. That Jon had been Rhaegar's dear friend had also been confirmed to us by Tyrion and Jaime.

There is a lot we don't know, but Rhaegar is not known to have had many close friends or confidants, so it is plausible some or all of these six men were among the half a dozen who set out with him on the journey in which he abducted Lyanna in the Riverlands so close to the homes of Oswell Whent and Myles Mooton.

Both Jon Connington and Myles Mooton are likely to have been present in King's Landing to be able to confirm or correct the story at some point after the abduction, as both men fought in the Battle of the Bells, Connington having been named Hand of the King prior to the battle, and Mooton having been killed by Robert himself during the battle.

Then Rhaegar himself returned from the south after the Battle of the Bells to assume command of the royalist forces, and so would have himself been able to confirm or correct the story in King's Landing after the abduction.

The idea that the story depends on one source is baseless nonsense.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

So it is very likely that both Rhaegar and Lyanna were kidnapped, and that Rhaegar was forced to fight his father's enemies and keep his mouth shut or else lose his wife and children in some tortuous, agonizing fashion.

That isn't likely at all, and there isn't a hint of such a thing, nor a shred of evidence for such a theory. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That dream about wearing an armour of black ice doesn't exactly scream Dayne.

Rhaegar might have had black armor, but it wasn't made of ice. Jon has much star imagery and sword of the morning constellation imagery. And sword imagery. Does the story ever even mention Rhaegar using a sword? Oh yes, there are a couple.

Quote

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one." ASOS-Daenerys I

 

Quote

"As you wish," said Whitebeard. "As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'" ASOS-Daenerys I

It just seems suspicious to me that we learn so much about Rhaegar in Dany's POV, and very little about Rhaegar in Jon's POV. All we really hear from Jon's POV is that Robert killed Rhaegar with a war hammer that Donal Noye made.

We do hear more about Rhaegar's lance in the story than we do his sword, but we only hear about Jon's "lance skill's" once in the story, and that is to find out that Robb is a better lance than Jon is, although Jon is the better sword.

We do get the ice dragon imagery in Jon's POV, which could be a hint of Stark/Targaryen heritage, but Bran has some ice dragon imagery as well.

The majority of Jon's weapon imagery is about swords. The first sword we are introduced to in this story by name is Ice. Then we hear about Dawn, although it's not introduced by it's name. The Targaryen swords don't even get a mention in the main series.  Jon's sword hand is also in our focus throughout the majority of the story. There is a connection to Jon and swords that I don't see fitting Rhaegar's story, or at least what we have so far.  Of course, everyone interprets the text differently.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Nonsense. The similarity is the promise and the mother's response to it, the identity of the father is irrelevant to it

Again, interpretation is different for us all. I certainly don't think your interpretations are nonsense, even if I disagree. But we will go with your interpretation of the similarity is that it does not directly involve the father, correct? The father is irrelevant? Then nothing specifically ties this to Rhaegar, anymore than to Robert, or Arthur Dayne, or Eddard. Therefore the father of Lyanna's baby is as irrelevant to the story as Barra's father is. For Ned, the promise does come around mentions of  Lyanna, but never about Rhaegar or Jon. Promises do seem to trigger discussion of Dany, however!

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Also, Barra is so very young, a child-woman. That is bound to trigger Ned, as well.

Barra's mother? Since Barra is an infant! Yes, there could be a huge connection between Barra's mother, a fool-child, and Lyanna Stark, a child-woman, or their might not be. One thing we learn about Barra's mother the fool-child, is that Ned thinks she is in love with Robert. Also, I am not sure age comes into it. Tyene Sand, as age 23, is referred to as a child-woman. How does Tyene Sand connect to Lyanna?

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That memory with promises, blood and roses is of Lyanna's death. The dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood, it features blue roses petals and his response "I promise" to her calling - in other words, the dream is connected to Lyanna's death, as well. And since Ned dreams repeatedly about ToJ, the three white knights and Lyanna's death, those three things are connected. Two out of those three things are confirmed by his memories and I see no reason why the third thing should be disconnected. If Lyanna was never there, then the name "tower of joy" needs to be explained, we still don't know where Lyanna died and why the three KG hung out in the middle of nowhere or why Ned considered necessary to fight them.

We really don't know how much of this dream is based on actual memory. Probably the combatants because that is "as it was in life". And maybe even the tower being pulled down and made into cairns because we get that in a memory. But not a whole lot else. I am certain I will not change your mind, no more than you will change mine. Lyanna's death is never confirmed in or around whatever the toj is! She is in a room somewhere, but we have no location that is given in the text. I guess the Appendix's could be considered part of the text.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Your argument is largely irrelevant, I'm afraid, as Jon's dreams do not reflect on any real-life event, nor do they contain memories "as it had been in life".

If we are only going to use the term "as it had been in life" to interpret dreams, then all we know is that 7 northmen faced 3 men in white cloaks. Somewhere! And that Cersei went into Maggy's tent with Jeyne Farman and Melara Heatherspoon. Those things are "as they were in life". Nothing else from any dream can be used for interpretive purposes, then?

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Localising the scene comes in one of the "as it had been in life" paragraphs, so I don't see what makes you think the location is false. - Though, you are right - it wasn't in Dorne but before it.

Well, it could be that just because the Red Mountains of Dorne were in the background, doesn't mean that the location of the toj is in Dorne. I don't think so, either. However, up thread I believe you connected Lyanna's death to the bed of blood in this tower, which apparently isn't in Dorne. So, how do you address Lyanna's death as being listed as in the mountains of Dorne. Granted, those appendixes might mean crappola to the story!

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The location of ToJ had already been stated, so no need to repeat it. He then goes on "Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.", by which he elaborates on the content of the dream without mentioning any discrepancy or problem with the location, so I don't see anything that would make the information from the dream invalid.

Well the quote that you use is from Ned's memory, but the location of the tower is given in a dream, and not tied to the phrase "as it was in life". So, I see some room to question the location.

I do appreciate your polite responses. I am sure you get quite tired of this debate. 

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But it isn't very likely at all. In fact, it's extremely unlikely, and bordering on crackpot fanfic. And I say "bordering" b/c I'm having a good day. 

Lol, OK, I'll walk back the "very likely." But it is still well within the realm of possibility, so we shouldn't just blithely accept the official version of events as true. Lots of things happening right now appear true at one point in the story only to be proven false later; there's no reason to think this can't be done with historical "truths" as well.

40 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That is incorrect. We are told of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna by a few different sources, anti-Targaryens who believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and raped her, pro-Targaryens who believe Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because he loved her, and a Maester of the Citadel. What all these sources have in common is that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. And there is no shred of evidence that all of these sources got their information from whatever person or persons informed Brandon of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna.

Robert:

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves." (AGOT: Eddard II)

Bran:

"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all." (AGOT: Bran VII)

Daenerys:

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" (ASOS: Daenerys IV)

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her. (ADWD: Daenerys VII)

Maester Yandel:

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring)

What followed Prince Rhaegar's infamous abduction of Lyanna Stark was the ruin of House Targaryen. (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - Robert's Rebellion)

When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King's crimes. (TWOIAF: The North - The Lords of Winterfell)

 

None of these people were there. They are classic examples of Martin's "unreliable narrator". They are simply going on what they were told, which became the official history of the realm. But that doesn't make it absolutely true. There are other possibilities that fit within the text.

43 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

MK?

Mad King.

44 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As Maester Yandel's quote in TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring states, Rhaegar was joined by half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants when he set out on the journey in which he abducted Lyanna. He was not alone, and there is no reason to believe that Lyanna was alone when she was abducted.

That same section names Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton, Ser Richard Lonmouth, Prince Lewyn Martell, and Ser Arthur Dayne as Rhaegar's main supporters and friends at court, and repeats the tale that Rhaegar had urged Lord Whent to hold the Harrenhal Tourney using his brother Ser Oswell Whent as a go between.

We already knew from Ser Barristan Selmy that Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth were knighted by Rhaegar and remained his close companions, that Jon Connington was dead to Rhaegar as well, and that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's oldest friend. That Jon had been Rhaegar's dear friend had also been confirmed to us by Tyrion and Jaime.

There is a lot we don't know, but Rhaegar is not known to have had many close friends or confidants, so it is plausible some or all of these six men were among the half a dozen who set out with him on the journey in which he abducted Lyanna in the Riverlands so close to the homes of Oswell Whent and Myles Mooton.

Both Jon Connington and Myles Mooton are likely to have been present in King's Landing to be able to confirm or correct the story at some point after the abduction, as both men fought in the Battle of the Bells, Connington having been named Hand of the King prior to the battle, and Mooton having been killed by Robert himself during the battle.

 

None of these men, most of all Connington, has ever said or thought that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, nor do we know who was witness to the supposed kidnapping.

And again, Yandel is merely repeating the story that was told. It does not make it true. Yandel also says that "... misfortune soon fell up Elia of Dorne and her children ..." and we know that's not true. Odd, don't you think, that all these men are mentioned at all of these other points, and yet not a one of them is named in the kidnapping.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Then Rhaegar himself returned from the south after the Battle of the Bells to assume command of the royalist forces, and so would have himself been able to confirm or correct the story in King's Landing after the abduction.

Let's see, how could the Mad King entice Rhaegar back to the capital and keep silent about what really happened? How about a letter hand-delivered by the White Bull stating that you are will return to King's Landing, raise a host and defeat my enemies, or Ser Gerold here will drag you back in chains and you and I can sit in the throneroom together and watch as, one by one, your family is slowly, ever so slowly, dipped into a giant vat of wildfire, starting with your infant son and heir. Do you think that would do it? Do you suppose that would finally convince Rhaegar that, upon his return, changes needed to be made?

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That isn't likely at all, and there isn't a hint of such a thing, nor a shred of evidence for such a theory. 

Yes, I walked back on the "very likely" above. I never said there were hints or evidence, just that we shouldn't meekly assume that the official version of events is true.

[Shmedricko]

On 9/7/2018 at 7:23 PM, Rufus Snow said:

We accept that of course it was Rhaegar who swept Lyanna off her feet. But what if the one with the wolf blood that led to her death was the one who took what she wanted???

On 9/8/2018 at 12:24 AM, Ygrain said:

And as for Lyanna and Rhaegar's roles being reversed, I proposed this scenario quite some time ago  Maybe she even took Rhaegar at swordpoint?   

Dothraki khals make endless war on one another once beyond the sacred precincts of Vaes Dothrak, their holy city, but the gods of the Jogos Nhai forbid them to shed the blood of their own people (young men do ride out to steal goats, dogs, and zorses from other bands, whilst their sisters go forth to abduct husbands, but these are rituals hallowed by the gods of the plains, during which no blood may be shed). (TWOIAF - The Bones and Beyond: The Plains of the Jogos Nhai)

[Lady Barbrey]

8 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Dothraki khals make endless war on one another once beyond the sacred precincts of Vaes Dothrak, their holy city, but the gods of the Jogos Nhai forbid them to shed the blood of their own people (young men do ride out to steal goats, dogs, and zorses from other bands, whilst their sisters go forth to abduct husbands, but these are rituals hallowed by the gods of the plains, during which no blood may be shed). (TWOIAF - The Bones and Beyond: The Plains of the Jogos Nhai)

While I'm not sure she did the abducting, I keep thinking she had some role in it.  I don't even like Lyanna much.  That scene where Bran sees her fighting with Benjen, he thinks it's Arya, but then seems to recognize it's not because she is just thrashing the smaller boy.  That can be interpreted however one wants but I know when I first read it, I thought he realized it wasn't Arya because Arya wouldn't go that far in thrashing Bran.  Then she pours wine over Benjen's head at Harrenhal, maybe funny if it was 10 year old Arya and 8 year old Bran, but she's at least 14 and Benjen about 12, this isn't the barracks, it's a gathering of the highest and most glittering nobles and knights in their known world. Benjen would have been humiliated, and Lyanna could have been rightfully described as an immature bad-mannered brat. Then we've got the Howland episode where she thrashed the squares, not because it's 3 against 1 and he's smaller and weaker, but from pride because he's a Stark bannerman.  Would she have intervened if he hadn't been? Doubtful.  Moreover, three older bigger teenagers could likely have taken her except she's announced she's a Stark, she has a weapon, and she's a girl - odds on they didn't even try to defend themselves. I'm sure she was heaven-sent from Howland's perspective, and good for her, but I question both her motive and method.

Robert was in love with her, but how well did he know her?  She was a good rider, shrewd enough to question whether she should get married to a player, and wept at a sad song, as many of us do.

I think many of us like her because she's a Stark, not a pushover, have romanticized visions of her great love story, and reminds us of Arya.  But I think she was more naturally vicious than Arya, who at least has been through major trauma to explain her current actions, and might go to greater lengths to get what she wanted.

Abducted Rhaegar?  No.  But played some role rather than helpless damsel? I totally buy it.

 

[Ygrain]

On 10/7/2018 at 2:14 PM, Shmedricko said:

Dothraki khals make endless war on one another once beyond the sacred precincts of Vaes Dothrak, their holy city, but the gods of the Jogos Nhai forbid them to shed the blood of their own people (young men do ride out to steal goats, dogs, and zorses from other bands, whilst their sisters go forth to abduct husbands, but these are rituals hallowed by the gods of the plains, during which no blood may be shed). (TWOIAF - The Bones and Beyond: The Plains of the Jogos Nhai)

Wow. One then has to wonder if GRRM had something specific in mind here when he wrote Lyanna as a half-Dothrakicentaur.

[Bael's Bastard]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wow. One then has to wonder if GRRM had something specific in mind here when he wrote Lyanna as a half-Dothrakicentaur.

Obviously Drogo is descended from Rodwell Stark from his Essosi wanderings.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

On 9/19/2018 at 4:42 PM, St Daga said:

It just seems suspicious to me that we learn so much about Rhaegar in Dany's POV, and very little about Rhaegar in Jon's POV. All we really hear from Jon's POV is that Robert killed Rhaegar with a war hammer that Donal Noye made.

That's completely normal, though. Why would Jon think about Rhaegar? To him, Rhaegar is the man who kidnapped and raped his aunt. That's the official story at Winterfell as per Bran. Dany on the other hand seems to worship her brother. 

Jon is the Arthur Pendragon of the story and that dragon imagery for him is there, especially in ADWD. 

In any case, I don't think it's a coincidence that one of the books Sam brought up from the vaults is "Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons," (which I'm assuming might be our version of Fire & Blood) And this one has pretty pictures in it too.

If the book is still in Maester Aemon's chambers at Castle Black, then it will end up between Jon's hands at some point.

[dmfn]

@Bael's Bastard

When Rheagar crowned Lyanna QoLaB, Brandon was furious, and how many people saw that? 

It cannot be coincidence that Brandon was the person informed of the "abduction". It's no coincidence that we never find out who told him this. It is absolutely classic misdirection. And history is written by the victors. No other version of events (especially including TWOIAF) could / would / should dare to contradict the official story that perpetuated a civil war and usurpation of the greatest dynasty of Westeros. 

Whoever told Brandon knew as much as they did, but was unaware Rheagar wasn't in King's Landing? Whoever told Brandon told a version of events that resulted in threebLords Paramount being branded traitors. 

It is no accident that this person remains anonymous, and as readers we should recognize that for the giant waving red flag it is. 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

11 hours ago, dmfn said:

@Bael's Bastard

When Rheagar crowned Lyanna QoLaB, Brandon was furious, and how many people saw that? 

It cannot be coincidence that Brandon was the person informed of the "abduction". It's no coincidence that we never find out who told him this. It is absolutely classic misdirection. And history is written by the victors. No other version of events (especially including TWOIAF) could / would / should dare to contradict the official story that perpetuated a civil war and usurpation of the greatest dynasty of Westeros. 

Whoever told Brandon knew as much as they did, but was unaware Rheagar wasn't in King's Landing? Whoever told Brandon told a version of events that resulted in threebLords Paramount being branded traitors. 

It is no accident that this person remains anonymous, and as readers we should recognize that for the giant waving red flag it is. 

There is no indication that:

     1. A single witness/source was responsible for informing Brandon of Lyanna's abduction
     2. Brandon alone was informed of Lyanna's abduction
     3. Brandon was directly informed of Lyanna's abduction by whatever source(s)/witness(es)

Bran recalls that Lord Rickard had gone south, with Brandon, and two hundred of his best men (AGOT: Bran VI).

Catelyn recalls that Brandon had bid her wait before he left Riverrun, vowing: "I shall not be long, my lady... We will be wed on my return" (AGOT: Catelyn X).

The app states that Brandon departed Riverrun to join Lord Rickard's wedding party, coming down from the north (AWOIAF App: Catelyn Tully).

Catelyn states that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Jaime states that Brandon rode into the Red Keep with some companions (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Catelyn recalls that Ethan Glover had been Brandon's squire, and that his other companions had been Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon's nephew and heir (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Maester Yandel states that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna not ten leagues from Harrenhal, and carried her off (TWOIAF: The Year of the False Spring).

We still have some significant gaps in knowledge, and some of these pieces of information might be susceptible to misinterpretation or inaccuracy, but we have here enough information to attempt to piece together some of what occurred.

Brandon likely left Riverrun for the last time in order to join Lord Rickard and his men/party as they made their way south to Riverrun for the wedding.

Brandon had likely joined up with Lord Rickard and his men/party before he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was on his way back to Riverrun.

Brandon was likely not only traveling with the larger group of Lord Rickard and his men/party when he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was on his way back to Riverrun, but was also likely traveling with the smaller group of his companions from the North, Riverlands, and Vale, who rode with him to King's Landing after he heard about Lyanna's abduction.

Thus, we have good reason to believe that Brandon was not alone when he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was likely traveling with his companions from the North, Riverlands, and Vale, and they were all likely traveling with the larger party of Lord Rickard on their way south to Riverrun for his wedding.

Furthermore, it is important to note that we have no reason to believe that Brandon was "the person informed of the abduction." This is something that is simply never stated or implied. All we are told is that Brandon heard about Lyanna, and that Brandon acted as a result of what he heard.

Did Brandon and his companions alone hear it directly from the original source(s)/witness(es)?

Did Brandon hear/overhear it from the original source(s)/witness(es) as they directly informed Lord Rickard and possibly his closest men?

Did Brandon hear it directly from Lord Rickard after he had been heard it directly from the original source(s)/witness(es)?

We have no idea, and we have no hint one way or another.

Hell, we don't even know that Lyanna wasn't traveling in the same larger party as Lord Rickard and Brandon when she was abducted, considering:

     1. She was abducted not ten leagues from Harrenhal
     2. Lord Rickard was making his way to Riverrun from the north (likely on the Kingsroad, then on the Riverroad, which goes south of the Red Fork)
     3. Brandon was on his way back to Riverrun when he heard, making it likely he had already joined up with Lord Rickard's men/party

So there's no basis for the idea that only one source/witness was responsible for the information about Lyanna's abduction, nor for the idea that such a source/witness singled Brandon out to inform him about Lyanna's abduction, nor for the idea that Brandon was even directly informed of Lyanna's abduction by whatever source(s)/witness(es).

It might be among the possibilities, but it is far from the most plausible possibility.

As for the source(s)/witness(es), for all we know it was a Stark man/men who had been with Lyanna, or had been nearby when she was abducted. There is no indication that the source(s)/witness(es) was some unknown or possibly untrustworthy entity. That is just filling in the gaps with theories, not facts, and not with the most plausible speculation.

[dmfn]

11 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is no indication that:

     1. A single witness/source was responsible for informing Brandon of Lyanna's abduction
     2. Brandon alone was informed of Lyanna's abduction
     3. Brandon was directly informed of Lyanna's abduction by whatever source(s)/witness(es)

Bran recalls that Lord Rickard had gone south, with Brandon, and two hundred of his best men (AGOT: Bran VI).

Catelyn recalls that Brandon had bid her wait before he left Riverrun, vowing: "I shall not be long, my lady... We will be wed on my return" (AGOT: Catelyn X).

The app states that Brandon departed Riverrun to join Lord Rickard's wedding party, coming down from the north (AWOIAF App: Catelyn Tully).

Catelyn states that Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Jaime states that Brandon rode into the Red Keep with some companions (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Catelyn recalls that Ethan Glover had been Brandon's squire, and that his other companions had been Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon's nephew and heir (ACOK: Catelyn VII).

Maester Yandel states that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna not ten leagues from Harrenhal, and carried her off (TWOIAF: The Year of the False Spring).

We still have some significant gaps in knowledge, and some of these pieces of information might be susceptible to misinterpretation or inaccuracy, but we have here enough information to attempt to piece together some of what occurred.

Brandon likely left Riverrun for the last time in order to join Lord Rickard and his men/party as they made their way south to Riverrun for the wedding.

Brandon had likely joined up with Lord Rickard and his men/party before he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was on his way back to Riverrun.

Brandon was likely not only traveling with the larger group of Lord Rickard and his men/party when he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was on his way back to Riverrun, but was also likely traveling with the smaller group of his companions from the North, Riverlands, and Vale, who rode with him to King's Landing after he heard about Lyanna's abduction.

Thus, we have good reason to believe that Brandon was not alone when he heard about Lyanna's abduction, as he was likely traveling with his companions from the North, Riverlands, and Vale, and they were all likely traveling with the larger party of Lord Rickard on their way south to Riverrun for his wedding.

Furthermore, it is important to note that we have no reason to believe that Brandon was "the person informed of the abduction." This is something that is simply never stated or implied. All we are told is that Brandon heard about Lyanna, and that Brandon acted as a result of what he heard.

Did Brandon and his companions alone hear it directly from the original source(s)/witness(es)?

Did Brandon hear/overhear it from the original source(s)/witness(es) as they directly informed Lord Rickard and possibly his closest men?

Did Brandon hear it directly from Lord Rickard after he had been heard it directly from the original source(s)/witness(es)?

We have no idea, and we have no hint one way or another.

Hell, we don't even know that Lyanna wasn't traveling in the same larger party as Lord Rickard and Brandon when she was abducted, considering:

     1. She was abducted not ten leagues from Harrenhal
     2. Lord Rickard was making his way to Riverrun from the north (likely on the Kingsroad, then on the Riverroad, which goes south of the Red Fork)
     3. Brandon was on his way back to Riverrun when he heard, making it likely he had already joined up with Lord Rickard's men/party

So there's no basis for the idea that only one source/witness was responsible for the information about Lyanna's abduction, nor for the idea that such a source/witness singled Brandon out to inform him about Lyanna's abduction, nor for the idea that Brandon was even directly informed of Lyanna's abduction by whatever source(s)/witness(es).

It might be among the possibilities, but it is far from the most plausible possibility.

As for the source(s)/witness(es), for all we know it was a Stark man/men who had been with Lyanna, or had been nearby when she was abducted. There is no indication that the source(s)/witness(es) was some unknown or possibly untrustworthy entity. That is just filling in the gaps with theories, not facts, and not with the most plausible speculation.

OK upon re-read I may have not been as clear as I would like to have been. 

Yeah, I agree with you about parties traveling, and all of the back and forth. I wasn't envisioning any one on one note passed in the forest. I just meant that whatever the source of the account, it had to have been (at least claimed to be) an eye witnesses. Rheagar didn't send a raven announcing anything. 

And whatever the witness saw was reported in a way, directly or indirectly, that made its way to Brandon's hot head, and in a way that pointed him to King's Landing where he and his father were killed. 

You're probably right about Rickard and Brandon being part of the same party, maybe separated by a few miles or leagues or whatever, but they certainly ended up in the same place together.  

I feel like what gives us a reason to suspect that the message was nefarious are the results of what happened. 

We readers get two stories about Rheagar: kidnapper rapist, or greatest guy in the world. Arthur Dayne (a good guess for his companion) basically only one story: second greatest guy in the world. But the Stark men don't pursue the greatest guys in the world and Lyanna. They go get killed. 

What could possibly be an alternative to such a horrible miscommunication? 

*breathless loyal Stark party member and eye witness to the abduction runs up to Rickard and Brandon* "My Lord... (gasp gasp gasp) the lady Lyanna... (gasp gasp gasp) the crown prince... (gasp gasp gasp) he took her... (gasp gasp gasp)...." Brandon rides full speed to King's Landing with mere fragments of information and demands Rheagar come out and die? Of course not. 

Yes, this is a theory. But I think believing that whatever / whomever / however this information (I don't care about the numbers or physical interaction, raven, messenger, prophecy in a dream) was conveyed, it was done so in a way as to infuriate and mislead the Starks (I'll even retract Brandon being the intended target of the message, but he would be the easiest to manipulate going on what we know), given what little we know about those involved. 

But I would have to guess that there must be one person, one agenda behind the story that the Starks received. 

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:36 PM, dmfn said:

OK upon re-read I may have not been as clear as I would like to have been. 

Yeah, I agree with you about parties traveling, and all of the back and forth. I wasn't envisioning any one on one note passed in the forest. I just meant that whatever the source of the account, it had to have been (at least claimed to be) an eye witnesses. Rheagar didn't send a raven announcing anything. 

And whatever the witness saw was reported in a way, directly or indirectly, that made its way to Brandon's hot head, and in a way that pointed him to King's Landing where he and his father were killed. 

You're probably right about Rickard and Brandon being part of the same party, maybe separated by a few miles or leagues or whatever, but they certainly ended up in the same place together.  

I feel like what gives us a reason to suspect that the message was nefarious are the results of what happened. 

We readers get two stories about Rheagar: kidnapper rapist, or greatest guy in the world. Arthur Dayne (a good guess for his companion) basically only one story: second greatest guy in the world. But the Stark men don't pursue the greatest guys in the world and Lyanna. They go get killed. 

What could possibly be an alternative to such a horrible miscommunication? 

*breathless loyal Stark party member and eye witness to the abduction runs up to Rickard and Brandon* "My Lord... (gasp gasp gasp) the lady Lyanna... (gasp gasp gasp) the crown prince... (gasp gasp gasp) he took her... (gasp gasp gasp)...." Brandon rides full speed to King's Landing with mere fragments of information and demands Rheagar come out and die? Of course not. 

Yes, this is a theory. But I think believing that whatever / whomever / however this information (I don't care about the numbers or physical interaction, raven, messenger, prophecy in a dream) was conveyed, it was done so in a way as to infuriate and mislead the Starks (I'll even retract Brandon being the intended target of the message, but he would be the easiest to manipulate going on what we know), given what little we know about those involved. 

But I would have to guess that there must be one person, one agenda behind the story that the Starks received. 

OK, so in your mind, what one person/one agenda was behind the story that the Starks received?

I think it is possible that the Starks received a misleading message, but I don't see any evidence that the source(s)/messenger(s) was responsible for knowingly or intentionally giving the Starks misleading information.

I think the simplest explanation is that Rhaegar, or someone in his party, led anyone present for Lyanna's abduction to believe that Lyanna was going to be brought to King's Landing.

In fact, we have a storyline in AGOT, Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion, that also begins in the Riverlands, perhaps not far from the location of Lyanna's abduction, that might closely resemble Lyanna's abduction in this respect.

Quote

"In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

(AGOT: Catelyn V)

Quote

We are taking him back to Winterfell," she said, and Tyrion thought, Well, perhaps … By then he'd had a moment to glance over the room and get a better idea of the situation. He was not altogether displeased by what he saw. Oh, the Stark woman had been clever, no doubt of it. Force them to make a public affirmation of the oaths sworn her father by the lords they served, and then call on them for succor, and her a woman, yes, that was sweet. Yet her success was not as complete as she might have liked. There were close to fifty in the common room by his rough count. Catelyn Stark's plea had roused a bare dozen; the others looked confused, or frightened, or sullen. Only two of the Freys had stirred, Tyrion noted, and they'd sat back down quick enough when their captain failed to move. He might have smiled if he'd dared.

"Winterfell it is, then," he said instead. That was a long ride, as he could well attest, having just ridden it the other way. So many things could happen along the way. "My father will wonder what has become of me," he added, catching the eye of the swordsman who'd offered to yield up his room. "He'll pay a handsome reward to any man who brings him word of what happened here today." Lord Tywin would do no such thing, of course, but Tyrion would make up for it if he won free.

Ser Rodrik glanced at his lady, his look worried, as well it might be. "His men come with him," the old knight announced. "And we'll thank the rest of you to stay quiet about what you've seen here."

It was all Tyrion could do not to laugh. Quiet? The old fool. Unless he took the whole inn, the word would begin to spread the instant they were gone. The freerider with the gold coin in his pocket would fly to Casterly Rock like an arrow. If not him, then someone else. Yoren would carry the story south. That fool singer might make a lay of it. The Freys would report back to their lord, and the gods only knew what he might do. Lord Walder Frey might be sworn to Riverrun, but he was a cautious man who had lived a long time by making certain he was always on the winning side. At the very least he would send his birds winging south to King's Landing, and he might well dare more than that.

Catelyn Stark wasted no time. "We must ride at once. We'll want fresh mounts, and provisions for the road. You men, know that you have the eternal gratitude of House Stark. If any of you choose to help us guard our captives and get them safe to Winterfell, I promise you shall be well rewarded." That was all it took; the fools came rushing forward. Tyrion studied their faces; they would indeed be well rewarded, he vowed to himself, but perhaps not quite as they imagined.

They set out through the rain at a hard gallop, and before long Tyrion's thighs were cramped and aching and his butt throbbed with pain. Even when they were safely away from the inn, and Catelyn Stark slowed them to a trot, it was a miserable pounding journey over rough ground, made worse by his blindness. Every twist and turn put him in danger of falling off his horse. The hood muffled sound, so he could not make out what was being said around him, and the rain soaked through the cloth and made it cling to his face, until even breathing was a struggle. The rope chafed his wrists raw and seemed to grow tighter as the night wore on. I was about to settle down to a warm fire and a roast fowl, and that wretched singer had to open his mouth, he thought mournfully. The wretched singer had come along with them. "There is a great song to be made from this, and I'm the one to make it," he told Catelyn Stark when he announced his intention of riding with them to see how the "splendid adventure" turned out. Tyrion wondered whether the boy would think the adventure quite so splendid once the Lannister riders caught up with them.

The rain had finally stopped and dawn light was seeping through the wet cloth over his eyes when Catelyn Stark gave the command to dismount. Rough hands pulled him down from his horse, untied his wrists, and yanked the hood off his head. When he saw the narrow stony road, the foothills rising high and wild all around them, and the jagged snowcapped peaks on the distant horizon, all the hope went out of him in a rush. "This is the high road," he gasped, looking at Lady Stark with accusation. "The eastern road. You said we were riding for Winterfell!"

Catelyn Stark favored him with the faintest of smiles. "Often and loudly," she agreed. "No doubt your friends will ride that way when they come after us. I wish them good speed."

Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.

(AGOT: Tyrion IV)

In AGOT, it is Catelyn herself, the abductor, who provides any witnesses and potential messengers with the false information that she was going to bring Tyrion to Winterfell, when she was actually bringing him to the Eyrie.

Depending on where the abduction of Lyanna occurred, Rhaegar and his party could have made a show of making for the Kingsroad, to take it south to KL, before heading to someplace else, perhaps Maidenpool, or somewhere else where they could take a ship.

[dmfn]

52 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

OK, so in your mind, what one person/one agenda was behind the story that the Starks received?

I think it is possible that the Starks received a misleading message, but I don't see any evidence that the source(s)/messenger(s) was responsible for knowingly or intentionally giving the Starks misleading information.

I think the simplest explanation is that Rhaegar, or someone in his party, led anyone present for Lyanna's abduction to believe that Lyanna was going to be brought to King's Landing.

In fact, we have a storyline in AGOT, Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion, that also begins in the Riverlands, perhaps not far from the location of Lyanna's abduction, that might closely resemble Lyanna's abduction in this respect.

In AGOT, it is Catelyn herself, the abductor, who provides any witnesses and potential messengers with the false information that she was going to bring Tyrion to Winterfell, when she was actually bringing him to the Eyrie.

Depending on where the abduction of Lyanna occurred, Rhaegar and his party could have made a show of making for the Kingsroad, to take it south to KL, before heading to someplace else, perhaps Maidenpool, or somewhere else where they could take a ship.

Touche' sir

Tyrion fell for the same ruse, so I don't feel too stupid... 

But if there was deliberate misdirection, it served the purpose of nearly dismantling the "Southron ambition" scheme pretty well, temporarily blocking powerful alliances from tying marriage bonds. It could have been thought to be enough to thwart any further plans if not for Robert's rebellion turning out how it did (which I think Rob and company got pretty lucky, all things considered.) 

I'm running out of evidence for any more arguments, but the whole situation still feels wrong to me.