Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

[manchester_babe]

As I read these books I find more clues that Jon is Rhaegar's child. 

[Yaya]

i will disagree.  as i re-read i become more sure that jon is a true-born child of the north.

[Ygrain]

44 minutes ago, Yaya said:

i will disagree.  as i re-read i become more sure that jon is a true-born child of the north.

He's taking after his mama's side of the family. Nature and nurture working together, I suppose :-)

[Megorova]

I was 100% sure, that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that he's also new Azor Ahai, and the last, third head of the dragon (the other two is Dany and her son, Rhaego, who is actually alive, and was kidnapped either by Dothraki, or by Shiera Seastar (who is a shadowbinder Quaithe), either for his Dothraki blood, or for his dragonseed blood, and thus his kidnapping, is first out of three treasons, predicted by the Undying - the one for blood). And that Dawn of Daynes is Lightbringer. So to weild Lightbringer it's owner has to have blood of Daynes.

It's possible, that first Azor Ahai was first Dayne, the one that has build Starfall. He was R'hllor's Red Priest in Asshai (even the city was named after him - Asshai - Az/sor's ahai), and when First Long Ningt ended, he left Asshai, an went west, bringing with him his people, first to Valyria, and then to Dorne. So Daynes and Valyrians both have purple eyes because they have common ancestor - first Azor Ahai. First Long Night, the Others, Azor Ahai, Lightbringer - all of it happened without dragons. GRRM didn't wanted to make dragons part of his plot. Thus it's possible, that Second Long Night and the war against the Others he also planned without involvement of dragons.

There are three Messiahs, that will save people from Long Night (Dany, Rhaego, Jon), not because they are three heads of the dragon (that were an addition to plot, that GRRM has made later, after he decided to use dragons, as part of ASOIAF's plot), but because they are GRRM's parallel to The Holy Trinity - The Mother, The Son, The Holy Ghost. Also all three of them (Dany, Rhaego, Jon) are parallels to Jesus. GRRM is Catholic, he was raised in a very religious environment.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/about-george/life-and-times/bayonne/

Quote

"Yes, I was born Catholic, like almost everybody else in Bayonne. Back then, a “mixed marriage” was when an Irish Catholic married an Italian Catholic."

"Mary Jane Donohoe School — also known as #4 school — was where I went to grade school, from kindergarten through eighth grade. The school was on Fifth Street and my family never owned a car, so I walked those four blocks every day. I had to pass St. Andrew’s on the way, the Catholic grade school. The city was so Catholic that the parochial schools had classes twice the size of the public schools. My mother figured I would get a better education in a smaller class, so she sent me to Mary Jane Donohoe… even after a parish priest came by the projects to warn her that if she persisted in her folly, she and I would both surely go to hell."

So the original basis for ASOIAF is Bible-based. Second Long Night is GRRM's parallel to Biblical Apocalypse. Rhaego, who is the Stallion that mounts the world, and Khal of Khals, is a parallel to Jesus, who was in the Book of Apocalypse called King of kings and Lord of lords. Also in the Bible it was said, that Jesus is the great shepherd, that will guide all nations. About Rhaego it was said, that all people of the world will be his herd <- if people are his herd, then he is the shepherd. In the Bible the sword comes out of Jesus' mouth, in Dany's vision of grown up Rhaego, she saw fire coming out of his mouth. This sword and fire are both metaphorical. And there are many other clues and hints, that ASOIAF is slightly based on the Bible.

Someone can argue, that even though I saw a few parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible's plot, it doesn't mean, that GRRM is writing stories based on the Bible. But that isn't so, he does write (at least did before) parallels to Biblical plot. For example this, summary from Wikipedia of GRRM book, that he wrote prior AGOT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon

Quote

Damien Har Veris, a priest skilled in resolving heretical disputes efficiently, although now spiritually exhausted, is sent by his alien archbishop as Knight Inquisitor to deal with a particular cult that has made a saint of Judas Iscariot.

The sect follows a religious text, The Way of Cross and Dragon, that describes the life of Iscariot, and revises his place in Christianity. The text describes how, born of a prostitute, Iscariot mastered the dark arts to become a tamer of dragons and the ruler of a great empire. After torturing and maiming Christ, Iscariot repented and relinquished his empire to become the penitent Legs of Christ, the first and best-beloved of the Twelve Apostles. Returning from proselytizing to find Christ crucified, an enraged Iscariot then destroyed the perpetrating empire and strangled St. Peter for renouncing Christ, only to discover, too late, Christ's Resurrection. Rejecting Judas' violence, Christ restored St. Peter to life and gave him the keys of the kingdom. St. Peter then suppressed the truth about Judas, vilifying his name and exploits. Seeking redemption for his wrath, Iscariot became the thousand-year-old Wandering Jew, before finally rejoining Christ in the Kingdom of God.

Perusing the materials of the sect, Har Veris finds himself enjoying the fanciful, creative but ultimately ridiculous narrative, finding it far more interesting than the more mundane heresies that have developed around power, money and doctrinal quibbles.

Arriving on the sect's distant planet onboard his ship, the Truth of Christ, Har Veris confronts its heresiarch, Lukyan Judasson, creator of the Way of Cross and Dragon narrative, but finds that he is already expected. Questioning Judasson, Har Veris uncovers a conspiracy of nihilistic Liars, who see Truth as entropy and despair, and who wish to soften and color the ultimately meaningless lives of others by creating belief in carefully crafted Lies; they create faiths. They have perpetrated this Judas cult as well as others, and now want Har Veris to join them. Despite his own spiritual exhaustion, he realizes that, though he may be losing his faith, he has not lost his passion for truth. When he refuses to join the Liars, Judasson wishes to have him silenced, but his senior in the conspiracy, a misshapen psionic mutant, senses the impending Liar in Har Veris, and allows him to go.

Har Veris then uses political manipulation and the public's fear and distrust of psychic powers to turn the tide on the Judas cult, resolving yet another heresy with dispatch. When, much later, he fully acknowledges that he has lost his faith, his superior is indifferent: results are what is needed, and Har Veris is to continue in his role as inquisitor. The priest accepts this, realizing that the psychic was right: he is himself a consummate Liar, perpetuating a faith in which he no longer believes.

However, departing on his next Inquisition, he has named his new starship Dragon.

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

Quote

While peaceably eating in a restaurant, Tuf is attacked by Jaime Kreen. Kreen is convicted for the attack and bonded to Tuf as a servant in debt. Kreen explains that his society (a technologically advanced secondary colony established as an arcology on the planet Charity) has been taken over by a primitivist religious leader named Moses. Taking his cues from the Bible, Moses had unleashed plagues on the inhabitants of the arcology, driving them out of their city into the countryside to labor and suffer under Moses' back-to-nature Holy Altruistic Restoration.

Kreen had attempted to murder Tuf because he blames Moses' plagues upon Tuf, who has gained an interstellar reputation as an ecological engineer, and Tuf realizes that Moses' "plagues" (actually low-tech simulations easily imposed by sabotage upon the closed system of an arcology) offer him an opportunity for revenue.

Kreen is sent down to the planet to bring back the former leaders of the now-conquered and evacuated arcology for negotiations, and Tuf offers to help them against Moses for a hefty fee. Using the Ark's technology, Tuf introduces himself to Moses as God, in the guise of a pillar of fire. He afflicts the followers of Moses with the bibilical plagues of legend, but these are widespread planetary ecological assaults instead of Moses' fraudulent localized afflictions.

After two such attacks, Tuf invites Moses aboard the Ark and shows him simulations of the increasingly horrible plagues that he could further inflict upon Moses and his followers. Moses, frightened, gives up his claim on the arcology's population, allowing them to escape his nasty, brutish religious fanaticism and return to the comforts of modern civilization.

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Manna_from_Heaven"

So GRRM indeed use Biblical parallels in his works, and ASOIAF is not an exception.

Thus it's likely, that Dany, Rhaego and Jon will defeat the Others, but it has nothing to do with the dragons, the three of them together is new Azor Ahai, because they are descendants of first Azor Ahai, thru their ancestor Queen Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V. Though the thing is, even if Jon is not Rhaegar's son, and Ned Stark is actually Jon's father, Jon still could be bloodrelated to first Azor Ahai. That's if his mother is Ashara Dayne <- I'm not supporter of this theory, but now I see, that it is possible.

Jon could be not Rhaegar's son, but he is still Azor Ahai.

I still prefer the idea R+L=J, but now I suppose, that it could be wrong.

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

The fact that people say "theres actually little evidence to support R+L=J" is still mindboggling to me. Its a 100% false statement. Anyway, as for me, I havent been swayed to any other direction, even after multiple re-reads.

[the Last Teague]

Personaly, it's SO evident Jon is Rhaegar's pup, and I'm so tired of this theory, and the s*upid TV show made it so wrong, I'm wishing Jon is the son of the fisherwoman who brought back Eddard to the north. Just for the laughs. 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

On 11/12/2018 at 6:21 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

The fact that people say "theres actually little evidence to support R+L=J" is still mindboggling to me. Its a 100% false statement. Anyway, as for me, I havent been swayed to any other direction, even after multiple re-reads.

And then after that when they try and persuade you that Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara with a pubic hairs worth of clues, despite the many clues pointing to him being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  xD

I don't get why people seem so desperate for R+L=J not to be true. I don't want any of that "its too simple" bullshit either. Its simple because people have been theorizing it for over 20 years at this point. 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

On 11/1/2018 at 3:53 PM, Megorova said:

There are three Messiahs, that will save people from Long Night (Dany, Rhaego, Jon)

What's Rhaego going to do to help in the Long Night, drool on the Others? Are you suggesting that there is going to be some sort of massive time jump or perhaps that the last book will end on a cliffhanger where the Others still haven't been defeated?

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

What's Rhaego going to do to help in the Long Night, drool on the Others? Are you suggesting that there is going to be some sort of massive time jump or perhaps that the last book will end on a cliffhanger where the Others still haven't been defeated?

In her vision, in the House of the Undying, Dany saw grown up Rhaego, under banner of a fiery stallion, and city burning behind him. First Long Night lasted for many many years. For more than a generation. As it was said in the books, people were born, lived their entire life, and died, in all that time not seeing the sun. So GRRM, saying that the ending of ASOIAF is bittersweet, and the last book in the series titled A Dream of Spring, could mean, that all current characters will die in battles against the Others, or will die from old age, and Second Long Night will be still ongoing, and it will end many years later, when Rhaego will finally "kill" all wights and the Others. And he will be not only the Stallion that mounts the world, but also R'hllor's champion. That could be the meaning of his banner - fiery stallion - combination of Dothraki symbol, and Red Priests symbol. Fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth in Dany's vision could mean, that he is a Red Priest (and that's a fire kiss/kiss of life). Same as his burning heart, which is a personal symbol of R'hllor's champion, and the Promised Prince (currently is used for Stannis by Melisandre). Could be, that the city was burning because it was infested by wights, so Rhaego burned it to "kill" them.

So that vision, and the title of the last book, both could be hints, that Long Night will be lasting for a long long time. Long enough for Rhaego to grow up, to become a warrior, and to lead his people in numerous battles in a war against the Others, which he will eventually win/end.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In her vision, in the House of the Undying, Dany saw grown up Rhaego, under banner of a fiery stallion, and city burning behind him. First Long Night lasted for many many years. For more than a generation. As it was said in the books, people were born, lived their entire life, and died, in all that time not seeing the sun. So GRRM, saying that the ending of ASOIAF is bittersweet, and the last book in the series titled A Dream of Spring, could mean, that all current characters will die in battles against the Others, or will die from old age, and Second Long Night will be still ongoing, and it will end many years later, when Rhaego will finally "kill" all wights and the Others. And he will be not only the Stallion that mounts the world, but also R'hllor's champion. That could be the meaning of his banner - fiery stallion - combination of Dothraki symbol, and Red Priests symbol. Fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth in Dany's vision could mean, that he is a Red Priest (and that's a fire kiss/kiss of life). Same as his burning heart, which is a personal symbol of R'hllor's champion, and the Promised Prince (currently is used for Stannis by Melisandre). Could be, that the city was burning because it was infested by wights, so Rhaego burned it to "kill" them.

So that vision, and the title of the last book, both could be hints, that Long Night will be lasting for a long long time. Long enough for Rhaego to grow up, to become a warrior, and to lead his people in numerous battles in a war against the Others, which he will eventually win/end.

I see where you're coming from, but I feel like if something like that was to happen, it would be a child of Jon and Daenerys that would finally stop the Long Night. The series is called 'A Song of Ice and Fire', so I feel like Jon must have some sort of relevance, whether it be Jon is the ice and Daenerys is the fire, or Jon is both the fire and the ice. If Jon or one of this future children doesn't play a part in finally beating the Others, I feel like his character is kind of pointless. 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I see where you're coming from, but I feel like if something like that was to happen, it would be a child of Jon and Daenerys that would finally stop the Long Night. The series is called 'A Song of Ice and Fire', so I feel like Jon must have some sort of relevance, whether it be Jon is the ice and Daenerys is the fire, or Jon is both the fire and the ice. If Jon or one of this future children doesn't play a part in finally beating the Others, I feel like his character is kind of pointless. 

In Essos there was Azor Ahai, and he obliterated the Others on his continent. Because he had Lightbringer. In Westeros there was the Last Hero. And he didn't had a magic sword. So the Others in Westeros were not only not obliterated, but it also took significantly more time to get rid of them (to push them thru usage of magic to the far far North of continent, and to build the Wall, to isolate them beyond it).

I think, that this time they will play the same roles. Only continents will be switched. Jon will be Azor Ahai of Westeros, and will kill all the Others there with usage of Lightbringer (which, in my opinion is, most likely, Dawn sword of Daynes). And Rhaego will be the Last Hero of Essos. He will be doing the same thing, as the other Last Hero before him - he will be fighting against the Others of his continent for a long long time, until he will finally manage to either defeat them, or to push them back, same as his predecessor.

Also I think, that all three of them together (Jon, Dany, and Rhaego) will play a significant role in defeating the Others. Though main purpose of Dany's character was to give birth to Rhaego, and to hatch dragons. She's like Mother Mary of ASOIAF - the most significant thing she did in her life, is that she gave birth to Messiah. There's three dragons, and in the prophecy the Dragon has three heads, so all three of them will be dragonriders. But I don't see Dany becoming a warrior, and actually fighting against wights or the Others, with a sword in her hands, or any other weapon. Which doesn't mean, that she's not important. Same thing with Jon. Even if it won't be him, who will put the final nail into the coffin of the Great Other, it doesn't mean, that his role was not important.

And about Jon and Dany's possible future child - my guess, is that it's going to be a girl. They will name her Lyanna, and she will be Rhaego's bride. I think, that ASOIAF is partially based on The Book of Apocalypse, the last part of the Bible (it ends with a wedding of Jesus and his bride). So if my guess is correct, then ASOIAF may also end with a wedding, either Jon and Dany's, or Rhaego and Lyanna's (years after death of their parents). Bittersweet ending may be, that Jon and Dany playd significant role in defeating the Others, but died before the great victory, and saw spring only in their dreams, while Long Night was still ongoing.

Also, if Rhaegar was correct, and the Song of Ice and Fire is Jon's song, then it's possible, that it is Jon's song for his daughter Lyanna. Some sort of parallel to GRRM's other book - A Song for Lya. Main characters of that novella are called Robb and Lyanna. And GRRM said, that that story was inspired by the first serious romance he was involved in. So "A Song of Ice and Fire" for Jon's Lyanna could be Martin's dedication to his first love, same as "A Song for Lya".

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This a re-read thread. Spoilers from the TV show are simply unacceptable.

Thank you.

[/MOD]

[Lady Valicious]

I was convinced when I read it the first time after Ned's chapter at the beginning of AGoT, none of the following books made think otherwise. I'm currently finishing AGoT again and I'm still convinced, probably even more than the first time. 

[Ser Hedge]

On 3/24/2019 at 9:48 PM, Megorova said:

In Essos there was Azor Ahai, and he obliterated the Others on his continent.

IIRC AA killed a "monster" with Lightbringer, but we don't know if it was necessarily an Other, correct?

I need to re-read that Davos chapter where Sallador tells him the story.

[Targaryen Peas]

On 5/23/2019 at 10:31 AM, Stubby said:

[MOD]

This a re-read thread. Spoilers from the TV show are simply unacceptable.

Thank you.

[/MOD]

Are quotes from GRRM's blog considered spoil? Because his last post can just settle this whole discussion.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

IIRC AA killed a "monster" with Lightbringer, but we don't know if it was necessarily an Other, correct?

I need to re-read that Davos chapter where Sallador tells him the story.

Yes, that monster was not the Other.

Though, logically thinking, in Westeros the Others were pushed into the far far north of continent, and then isolated there by The Wall, and because there's no Wall and no Others in Essos now, it's a logical conclusion, that the war against the Others was totally different on those two continets - the Others of Westeros were just pushed back, or lured by something to far north, while in Essos they all were killed. And the difference between those two cases, is that the hero of Essos had a magic sword, that was able to kill the Others, while the hero of Westeros didn't had something like that, all he had was an assistance of the Children (to build The Wall).

Thus, it's also reasonable to assume, that this time that same sword will be used in Westeros. That's why I think, that Azor Ahai was founder of House Dayne, and that Dawn of Daynes is the Lightbringer, that was forged thousands years ago, by AA sacrificing his wife to complete it. And Jon is 1/8 Dayne thru mother of Aegon V, Dyanna Dayne. And I think, that Jon was conceived and born at Starfall, which is the place where had fallen a star, from the heart of which AA forged Lightbringer.

[Ser Hedge]

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Yes, that monster was not the Other.

Though, logically thinking, in Westeros the Others were pushed into the far far north of continent, and then isolated there by The Wall, and because there's no Wall and no Others in Essos now, it's a logical conclusion, that the war against the Others was totally different on those two continets - the Others of Westeros were just pushed back, or lured by something to far north, while in Essos they all were killed. And the difference between those two cases, is that the hero of Essos had a magic sword, that was able to kill the Others, while the hero of Westeros didn't had something like that, all he had was an assistance of the Children (to build The Wall).

Thus, it's also reasonable to assume, that this time that same sword will be used in Westeros. That's why I think, that Azor Ahai was founder of House Dayne, and that Dawn of Daynes is the Lightbringer, that was forged thousands years ago, by AA sacrificing his wife to complete it. And Jon is 1/8 Dayne thru mother of Aegon V, Dyanna Dayne. And I think, that Jon was conceived and born at Starfall, which is the place where had fallen a star, from the heart of which AA forged Lightbringer.

Interesting theory, I don't have the books to hand, but just looked up the wiki: so AA seems to have fought the monster in his quest to end the long darkness. I guess the monster could have been a wightified animal, an Other (though surprising it burst into flames rather than shattering like the Other Samwell killed with obsidian) or just a completely different animal or monster of legend, as Salladhor's story does not say if the Long Night was ended by that monster being killed, or if this was a chance encounter.

I know Mel is the one other person to bring up AA afaik when she refers to Stannis as AA reborn, but does she or anyone else ever talk about what the original AA is supposed to have done in legend? (Master Aemon leaves the page in the Jade Compendium for Jon, but all that we have seen is the part about the sword giving out heat)

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Ser Hedge said:

but does she or anyone else ever talk about what the original AA is supposed to have done in legend?

Salladhor Saan said to Davos, that AA was forging Lightbringer in a temple, for close to six months (three attempts - 30, 50 and 100 days, 180 in total, which is nearly half of a year). That's the only specific info about it. The prophecy about AA-reborn is from Asshai, was given to people 5000 years ago, at about same time period, when Valyria was rising, Valyrians bonded with dragons, and went into war against Ghiscari. So it's likely, that originally AA was from Asshai, and that the temple, in sacred flames of which he forged Lightbringer, was also in Asshai. Also it's possible, that AA was something like Red Priest, or even the High Priest of R'hllor, because it's in R'hllor's religion the fire is sacred, and if AA was not affiliated with that temple, then how did he got access to it, for nearly six months? And even killed his wife in a temple. To do something like that, in a sacred place, requires to have pretty high authority. No?

[Ser Hedge]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Salladhor Saan said to Davos, that AA was forging Lightbringer in a temple, for close to six months (three attempts - 30, 50 and 100 days, 180 in total, which is nearly half of a year). That's the only specific info about it. The prophecy about AA-reborn is from Asshai, was given to people 5000 years ago, at about same time period, when Valyria was rising, Valyrians bonded with dragons, and went into war against Ghiscari. So it's likely, that originally AA was from Asshai, and that the temple, in sacred flames of which he forged Lightbringer, was also in Asshai. Also it's possible, that AA was something like Red Priest, or even the High Priest of R'hllor, because it's in R'hllor's religion the fire is sacred, and if AA was not affiliated with that temple, then how did he got access to it, for nearly six months? And even killed his wife in a temple. To do something like that, in a sacred place, requires to have pretty high authority. No?

Yes, that makes sense. The AA-reborn enthusiasts we have seen so far are both Red priests (Mel and Benerro), so the links to the faith of R'hllor are strong.

What I meant is as far as the original AA is concerned, we don't know anything about what he did with Lightbringer except for the one fight with the monster. And since the Jade Compendium states that the beast's blood starts to boil, it looks like the beast is not a wight or an Other.

Sorry I went around in circles, you already did say the monster AA killed was not an Other and I agree now. Given there is absolutely 0 information on what else the original AA actually did to fight the darkness and given that Eastern chronicles do not even mention the Others, wights or ice spiders, I cannot buy into any theories on AA whatsoever. 

We only know that the Others are real. Its therefore high probability that the Westerosi legends about the Long Night carry a bigger kernel of truth about them being caused by the Others. We have the Wall as evidence of magic used that is highly likely associated with keeping the Others out of the south.

However, there is absolutely nothing in the texts to link any figure in Essos with the Others at all. It's quite possible Essos experienced the darkness at the same time, had no clue why and what the Westerosi did about it and just made up their own legends. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we know if it even got cold in Essos during the darkness.

The darkness might be like the flood myth that exists in different traditions in our real world (Old Testament, Greek, Babylonian and Hindu) - maybe the flood happened to some extent in one place and everybody borrowed it because it's such a cool story? Or there were floods everywhere, but neither AA nor the LH actually had anything to do with ending them ? (though as mentioned earlier the Westerosi have proved most likely as having been involved in some way)

[Ser Hedge]

Oops sorry I completely lost track that this was an RLJ thread, didn't mean to hijack.