Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

[oggy1324]

On 5/31/2017 at 12:48 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I would be very disappointed with that. Ned never thinks of Jon's mother, but he thinks a lot about Lyanna. If N+A=J, poor Jon Snow had a really cruel father who would take his son away from his mother and never mention her to him, or give him hints. The whole mystery surrounding Jon's parentage is what made him so sullen and melancholic. If his father took him away from his mother, never mentions her, raises him with a very hurt and resentful Catelyn, of course Jon would think she was some horrible whore.

Yes I mean If Ashara is his mother then there is no need to hide her identity! 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

However, there is absolutely nothing in the texts to link any figure in Essos with the Others at all.

Bloodstone Emperor, and the Lion of Night, both from Yi Ti.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bloodstone_Emperor

He practiced necromancy, so it's likely that in Essos he's the one who created wights/zombies/undead.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lion_of_Night

"The Five Forts, which predate the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, are claimed by some to have been raised by the Pearl Emperor to keep the Lion of Night and his demons away from the realms of men.^[3] "

Those demons could be the Others.

And it could be, that there is no Weirwood/heart trees in Essos, because those trees is the source of the Others. So Azor Ahai killed all the Others in Essos, and then burned all Weirwoods, to prevent them from making more Others (because in my opinion, the Others were created by the Weirwood, something like its fruits, parts of the Weirwood Network).

 

[keira_targaryen]

On 6/10/2017 at 11:09 PM, John Suburbs said:

I thought there was some text somewhere that had her eyes a deep purple that most people thought they were black at first. But I couldn't find it on a quick scan. If I spot it, I'll post it.

Actually it's about Rhaegar. His eyes were a deep purple, almost black. I think it's in Barristan pov but I'm not sure. It makes sense with Jon's eyes being a deep grey almost black. Maybe he has some of that deep purple but it's difficult to spot because his eyes are very dark.

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, keira_targaryen said:

Actually it's about Rhaegar. His eyes were a deep purple, almost black. I think it's in Barristan pov but I'm not sure. It makes sense with Jon's eyes being a deep grey almost black. Maybe he has some of that deep purple but it's difficult to spot because his eyes are very dark.

That was Darkstar, not Rhaegar. Rhaegar's eyes were indigo. Which is not that far.

[keira_targaryen]

I'm pretty sure it was Rhaegar. I'll look for the chapter and post it here

[kissdbyfire]

It’s Jon Connington who thinks about Rhaegar’s deep purple eyes. 

ADwD, The Griffin Reborn

“Prince Aegon Targaryen was not near as biddable as the boy Young Griff had been, however. The better part of an hour had passed before he finally turned up in the solar, with Duck at his side. “Lord Connington,” he said, “I like your castle.”
“Your father’s lands are beautiful,” he said. His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy’s. “As do I, Your Grace. Please, be seated. Ser Rolly, we’ll have no further need of you for now.”

Dany sees Rhaegar’s eyes as dark indigo in the HotU:

“Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac”

But deep purple and dark indigo, same difference, right? 

[Melifeather]

On 6/2/2019 at 5:28 AM, oggy1324 said:

Yes I mean If Ashara is his mother then there is no need to hide her identity! 

There is if Ned wanted to protect Ashara, and I believe there were good reasons.

An unwed mother has very poor prospects. Lollys was married off to Bronn who was an up jumped sellsword. By the time Ashara realizes she's pregnant, the houses of Dayne and Stark are on opposing sides of the Rebellion. There really would be no hope for a marriage alliance until after the fighting was over.

I suspect Ashara was impregnated at the Harrenhal Tourney and wouldn't have realized it until 6-8 weeks later. Lyanna is abducted a month or two later, then Brandon rides to Kings Landing and gets taken into custody. Rickard is summoned, and then the two of them are executed. Ashara by then should have had a small baby bump to conceal. She feared for her Stark bastard, so she slips out of Kings Landing - an earlier parallel to when Sansa escaped. Sansa assumed the Alayne identity, and I believe Ashara assumed the Wylla identity and was also the Fisherman's Daughter.

I theorize that Ashara left Kings Landing by ship with the intention to find Ned. They cross paths somewhere in the Fingers and cross the Bite together to White Harbor. Ned brought "Wylla" home with him to Winterfell when he called his banners, and Jon was actually born at Winterfell "in the crypts" - a symbolic way of saying his mother was dead.

Ned probably planned to marry Ashara after the Rebellion, but out of political necessity he married Catelyn instead. He kept Jon and sent Ashara home, keeping the parentage a secret in order to protect Ashara's honor.

After the Rebellion, Ned went to Starfall under the pretext of returning Arthur's sword. While there they come up with the fake suicide plan so that Ashara can remain at Starfall as Wylla. Just as Alayne and Petyr pushed Lyssa out the Moon Door, Wylla and Ned pushed "somebody" (probably a dead corpse dressed in woman's clothing) off the Palestone Tower into the sea. Sansa is still living with Petyr as his daughter Alayne, and I believe Ashara is still living at Starfall as Wylla. She may have felt it preferable to live at home under an assumed identity than to be an unwed mother with poor prospects at marriage.

 

[Megorova]

On 6/12/2019 at 5:16 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect Ashara was impregnated at the Harrenhal Tourney and wouldn't have realized it until 6-8 weeks later. Lyanna is abducted a month or two later, then Brandon rides to Kings Landing and gets taken into custody. Rickard is summoned, and then the two of them are executed.

Harrenhal's tournament was held in second half of November of 281 (the False Spring lasted less than two months, last two months of 281). And Lyanna was abducted in late 282, nearly a year after tournament (in September or October of 282).

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Harrenhal's tournament was held in second half of November of 281 (the False Spring lasted less than two months, last two months of 281). And Lyanna was abducted in late 282, nearly a year after tournament (in September or October of 282).

Lyanna was abducted the beginning of 282. From the World Book - False Spring:

Quote

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

[Megorova]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ULTIMATELY lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

It means, that he departed in the beginning of the new year, and went on a journey, that EVENTUALLY/ultimately ended at Riverlands, where he abducted Lyanna.

From Dragonstone he didn't immediately went to Riverlands. It isn't known where he went. Though later, many months later, he ended up at Riverlands, where he abducted Lyanna, near the end of 282.

After Lyanna was abducted, in 282 had happened not that many events.

Brandon went to KL, after he found out about Lyanna's abduction. Based on Cat's chapter, in which she kidnapped Tyrion, it is known that travel time from Crossroads (which is not that far from Harrenhal) to KL is 14 days. After Brandon's imprisonment, Rickard went from Riverrun to KL. Both of them were executed, Aerys sent demand to Jon Arryn to execute Ned, Jon called his banners, then happened swift battle at Gulltown, that was taken in a single day. From there Robert departed to Storm's End, via ship. There he hastily gathered forces, and went to fight three one-on-one duels at Summerhall, in a single day. Then he again went back to Storm's End, some time later went to fight at Ashford, from which escaped to Stoney Sept. Tyrell, against whom he fought at Ashford, went and sieged Storm's End (siege lasted close to a year, was ended by Ned after the Sack of KL). Aerys sent Jon Connington and Targaryen army to Stoney Sept. The battle there, the Battle of the Bells, had happened already in 283.

After Lyanna's abduction everything was happening very fast. Things slowed dawn a bit only after the Battle of the Bells, because Ned and Jon Arryn went to Riverrun to marry with Tully girls, and Targaryen loyalists were gathering their forces, joining forces with 10.000 Dornishmen, that were summoned from Dorne, and were waiting for Rhaegar's return from south. Between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle at Trident months had passed. While pauses between earlier battles of that Rebellion were shorter.

 

There's no way that Lyanna was kidnapped in early 282.

Because the fighting began near the end of that year. Do you think, that it took Brandon many months to arrive to KL? or that Rickard wasn't in a hurry to save his son? or that Aerys, after executing them, was waiting for a long time, prior sending that message to Jon Arryn? or that Jon Arryn was doing nothing for months after getting that message? -> just read again about events of the Rebellion - between Lyanna's kidnapping and the Battle at Ashford (which was the last battle of 282) passed not that much time, maybe two months, maybe three or four, but not more than that.

 

Many readers have a distorted understanding of what is happening in the books. For example, a lot of people were arguing with me, that because Aegon IV was in a relatioship with Bellegere Otherys for 10 years (161-171), it means, that for those 10 years he was staying in Braavos. And I kept saying, that that is because known information from the books contradicts that possibility - for example, Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170, while Aegon was still in a relatioship with Bellegere, and there were rumors that Jeyne Lothston (born in 163 or 164) was Aegon's child. How could there be rumors like that, in case if Aegon at that time was in Essos? Thus, he wasn't at that time in Essos. Just because in 161 he was sent as an envoy to Braavos, where he met Bellegere, with whom he had an affair for the next 10 years, doesn't mean, that in span of those 10 years he was staying in Braavos. But those other people kept arguing with me, even though the info in the books was fairly clear and understandable.

Same thing with Robert's Rebellion and the time of Lyanna's abduction -> your understanding of information (time-frame) written in the books is incorrect.

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It means, that he departed in the beginning of the new year, and went on a journey, that EVENTUALLY/ultimately ended at Riverlands, where he abducted Lyanna.

<snip>

Same thing with Robert's Rebellion and the time of Lyanna's abduction -> your understanding of information (time-frame) written in the books is incorrect.

Calm down Megorova! I can see you are highly invested in your interpretation of events! But I completely disagree with your timeline, but hey, no big deal! I think you can survive without converting me. 

This isn't the thread to support R+L=J - there's already a long running thread about that. This is to talk about why people are beginning to doubt this widely accepted theory.

Personally I use the timing of Aegon's conception and his stated age at death (GRRM said about a year, give or take a moon or two) to dictate the Rebellion timeline. It's the closest factual timing provided in the text and begins with Rhaegar and Elia's marriage in 280 which needs to occur in either Jan, Feb, or Mar in order to have Rhaenys born in that very same year.

The text states that Elia recovered for six months. That's just a way of saying she waited six months to conceive again, so Aegon was conceived either Apr, May, or June 281 placing his birth month at either Jan, Feb, or Mar of 282. In order to be about a year at death, the Sack would need to occur Jan, Feb, or Mar 283. If we give the two months on either end, we get a span of Nov 282 until May 283.

The beginning of the Rebellion is whenever Jon Arryn raised his banners, and ended at the Sack. The Rebellion timeline roughly begins in Jan 282 and ends no later than May of 283.

[unforgiven]

Apologies for bringing up the show in this section, but this post from George's Not A Blog is germane to this discussion. Perhaps needless to say "Spoilers," but I'm saying it just in case anyone wants to hold off on finding out for sure until the sentence and page that the truth is finally revealed.

 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

[Lord Wraith]

On 6/12/2019 at 10:16 AM, Melifeather said:

I suspect Ashara was impregnated at the Harrenhal Tourney and wouldn't have realized it until 6-8 weeks later. Lyanna is abducted a month or two later, then Brandon rides to Kings Landing and gets taken into custody. Rickard is summoned, and then the two of them are executed. Ashara by then should have had a small baby bump to conceal. She feared for her Stark bastard, so she slips out of Kings Landing - an earlier parallel to when Sansa escaped. Sansa assumed the Alayne identity, and I believe Ashara assumed the Wylla identity and was also the Fisherman's Daughter.

I disagree about the timeline of events but agree on the Ashara being the Fisherman's Daughter. I think the romance between Ashara and Ned started at the Tournament. Then Ashara goes to Dragonstone and Ned goes to the Eyrie, plenty of time to correspond and maybe even meet up once or twice since its only a boat ride away. I think Ned was planning to bring Ashara to his brothers wedding with the intent to get his fathers permission to marry her. Then everything went to shit.

Ned and Ashara flee North on the Fisherman's boat. They capsize and almost die. That combined with the grief of losing his father and brother leads to Ned bedding Ashara.  This parallels Robb at the Craig after hearing news of the his brothers death. Ashara and Ned reach White Harbor and secretly marry in the First Man tradition. Then Ned goes to Winterfell to collect the troops and heads south to fight in the rebellion.

[TheLastWolf]

On 5/21/2017 at 12:29 AM, Lord Edric Baratheon said:

Actually this is my second re-read, and I have to say that for a long time I've been a firm believer of this theory, with all the additional info on the harrenhal tourney as well as the other clues scattered among the text. Lately, I find it to be very foolish, and I've since started to think what the real answer might be, was it ashara and ned? ashara and brandon? perhaps even ned and some random girl?or brandon and some random girl ? (brandon might have indeed been a wild wolf) how does rhaegar really fit into the picture and also do we have enough facts about lyanna to be putting this together? Of course the answer to all of this is we just don't know (damn you george!) All these other facts as well as the proximity to the isle of faces makes me think the rhaegar and lyanna connection is real, though I doubt it is to have some superhero jon snow brought forth. To me it is obvious that the complexity of the story will result in many heroes not just a single azor ahai, if you will. So in my opinion jon is not "the one", but one of the few perhaps. Rather than thinking about the three heads of the dragon, and dany, and (f)aegon, I'm thinking it will be a group effort. I'm even doubting that the "apocalypse" coming for our heroes will be as its being portrayed on the show or as the read will have us believe. 

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on with my several doubts on what our author has clearly set up to deceive us. So here is the thread I wanted to start, seeing that this story is meant to deceive, how much should we trust prophecy and visions and all that, they clearly have a part to play, but will they spell out the whole story or is it meant to deceive? George does a really good job on setting plots where we hear a tale, our pov character believes one thing only to be proved wrong by a background character in another one's pov. Where I'm trying to get with this is that cat believes jon's mother to be ashara dayne, she ponders it in a couple of her pov's first in agot and then in asos (If I'm not mistaken), which would indicate that ashara is not jon's mom, is the only other option lyanna? most of the arguments put forth for her being the mother are from the harrenhal tourney and visions. Prophecy ultimately leads us to r+l=j, which is my whole point. Any thoughts? Insight is always appreciated to loosen these knots and learn a bit more.

ps. I know my fact are lazy, but bear with me. besides if you're here you probably know exactly what I'm talking about.

Me me me!!! 

 

 

[Melifeather]

On 12/25/2019 at 1:36 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I disagree about the timeline of events but agree on the Ashara being the Fisherman's Daughter. I think the romance between Ashara and Ned started at the Tournament. Then Ashara goes to Dragonstone and Ned goes to the Eyrie, plenty of time to correspond and maybe even meet up once or twice since its only a boat ride away. I think Ned was planning to bring Ashara to his brothers wedding with the intent to get his fathers permission to marry her. Then everything went to shit.

Ned and Ashara flee North on the Fisherman's boat. They capsize and almost die. That combined with the grief of losing his father and brother leads to Ned bedding Ashara.  This parallels Robb at the Craig after hearing news of the his brothers death. Ashara and Ned reach White Harbor and secretly marry in the First Man tradition. Then Ned goes to Winterfell to collect the troops and heads south to fight in the rebellion.

I agree that Robb repeated his father's life by falling in love with an unsuitable maid. Ned loved Ashara whose family was on the opposite side of the Rebellion. He married Catelyn out of political necessity - an alliance with the Tullys to save Robert. Robb discarded the Frey's and broke his promise. It was grossly dishonorable to break the marriage pact. Robb placed more value on Jeyne's honor than his own.  His love for her was actually besides the point. Ned did what he thought was the honorable thing and raised his bastard son, but concealed the identity of the mother. Ashara didn't want her family to be dishonored by her loss of maidenhead, so she faked her own death and assumed the Wylla identity. Ned went along with the deception to protect Ashara's honor.