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Lord Edric Baratheon

Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

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No. The 3 most reliable KG at the ToJ. The questions of Ned. Why were you not with Rhaegar, Aerys or Viserys, left me no doubt. I don't need 100s of pages to westeros.org sterile discussion or another book's excerpt.

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I don't doubt it, but I understand that after reading stuff on this forum, and re-reading, you can start to doubt anything. To tell the truth, I can't even remember if I worked out Jon's parentage myself or read it on the forum first, seeing as I read the books very scattily at first, as I am an impatient reader and read some characters POV through first, missing others, and going back.

I think that some tricks and reveals would be cheap and silly and ruin the story rather than being clever - and making Jon someone else's child would be in that bag. I also doubt that all the hidden identities and secrets in the book will be somehow overtly revealed on page, ever, as that would spoil them too. So Jon's parentage may never be revealed, just confirmed with some more circumstantial evidence. 

 

 

 

Edited by Castellan
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On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 2:59 AM, Lord Edric Baratheon said:

 Any thoughts? Insight is always appreciated to loosen these knots and learn a bit more.

Check out the Order of the Green Hand videos in youtube if you want an alternative theory on Jon's parentage.

 

 

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Ned's thoughts in the first book already give a hint that Jon is Lyanna's son. Her words "Promise me..." before her death can only mean something very important. An important secret. And Ned stubbornly doesn't reveal anyone the mother's name of his bastard son and doesn't talk about her at all. He would reveal to his  wife that Jon is Lyanna's son if the father would be someone else. Jon is Rheagar's son and that's why it must be secret. His best friend Robert would kill the child. He's famous for his temper.

Also the direwolf. Re-reading the first book, it seemed symbolic that he gets the white wolf. Not because he's Snow but because the Targaryens are white-haired. He is Stark but he is also his father's son.

Then I got to the part when Jon got severe burns while saving Mormont from the Wights. So he's not fire resistant like Dany. But then... We don't know much about Targaryens. Probably not all of them are "dragons".

So I will keep reading. (:

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3 hours ago, Obsidian Knight said:

Ned's thoughts in the first book already give a hint that Jon is Lyanna's son.

1 - Her words "Promise me..." before her death can only mean something very important. An important secret.

2 - And Ned stubbornly doesn't reveal anyone the mother's name of his bastard son and doesn't talk about her at all. He would reveal to his  wife that Jon is Lyanna's son if the father would be someone else. Jon is Rheagar's son and that's why it must be secret. His best friend Robert would kill the child. He's famous for his temper.

3 - Also the direwolf. Re-reading the first book, it seemed symbolic that he gets the white wolf. Not because he's Snow but because the Targaryens are white-haired. He is Stark but he is also his father's son.

4 - Then I got to the part when Jon got severe burns while saving Mormont from the Wights. So he's not fire resistant like Dany. But then... We don't know much about Targaryens. Probably not all of them are "dragons".

1 - what was important to her at that time and place is pure speculation, Just as well it could had been "bury me in the crypts at Winterfell". Or "plant flower X on my grave". Or even - "promise me I will not die".

2 - again pure speculation. There could be several reasons - more or less important, or simply "it seemed a good idea at that time", for the hush-hush.

3 - a white direwolf fits the heraldry bastards use, i.e. reversing the House's colours. Inverting the Stark colours gives you "a white direwolf on black", and not "silver on grey".

4 - Dany is not (permanently) fire resistant either. It is a TV series thing. Viserys or Aegon Vth - or all the other Targs who buned themselves - certainly were not. So any heat resistance Daenerys Stormborn the Unburnt might have is her individual mutation :)

Edited by TMIFairy

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On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:09 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I'd say if you just read the first 2-3 books then R+L=J seems obvious but the hints Martin keeps dropping in later books could point in several directions. Personally I am about 70/30 on R+L=J. I would like it to be N+A=J.

Here, here! The parents Jon deserves.

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I'm re-reading GoT and I noticed how GRRM throws strong hints at R+L=J and then tries to send the reader in some other direction, especially in the early Ned and Catelyn chapters. It's highly unlikely that Jon's mother is anyone other than Lyanna. He looks like Lyanna, and even has talents like hers, like riding. He is shown as a blue rose in one of Dany's House of Undying visions, and we know who blue roses are associated with. If he's Lyanna's son, he is also likely Rhaegar's too, cause you know, she wasn't with anyone else. 

As for Ashara Dayne, she could be Faegon's mother. She could also be Quaith, according to some fans. I think her eyes are an indication she has Targ blood. I'm not sure about House Dayne's ancestry. But wasn't Rhaenys (Aegon's I's sister-wife) downed in Dorne and then she disappeared? There's a chance that there's a Targ line in Dorne descending from her. It could also point to Valyrian's being in southern Westeros thousands of years ago to defeat the Others. 

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On 8/19/2017 at 8:04 PM, TMIFairy said:

4 - Dany is not (permanently) fire resistant either. It is a TV series thing. Viserys or Aegon Vth - or all the other Targs who buned themselves - certainly were not. So any heat resistance Daenerys Stormborn the Unburnt might have is her individual mutation :)

GRRM has said that Dany is not fireproof. She burns just like everyone else. Her surviving the funeral pyre at the end of GoT was apparently a special magical event. Dany, however, has a higher tolerance for heat, like Ned has a higher tolerance for cold. She likes soaking in scalding hot water for example. But it doesn't mean she's not hurt by fire any less than Ned (or other Starks) can die from hypothermia. 

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I think its definatley R+L=J... Now for one I think at this point Martin would have a little bit of an inclination to change it to give back the sense of surprise, however, he mentioned he would never change his story JUST because people saw it ahead of time. I think it is pretty secure, forgetting the TV series, the IDEA of Jon as a Targ/Stark so well fits with the theme of the story... and honestly I think there's more evidence that this theory is true than ANY OTHER theory in the books. 

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I don't know why, but I still think Benjen Stark is Jon's father. Always belived this.
I have a few points for this:
- Benjen calls Jon "son"
- Benjen thinks that taking the black is a bad move and then he tries to convince Jon to change his mind
- then have a moment on the wall, the "I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time"; for me is like a parent thing, who wants to be there for the important moments of his kid's life
- Jon did not had a perfect childhood and Benjen was never there for him, but he hoped that Jon will have a family of his own one day, love someone and maybe ever be finally happy (since Benjen cannot have other children of his own and he did not get the chance to raise his only son).... not sure about the woman and the love in Benjen's case... maybe he only loved Lyanna and does not even think of someone else.

And then, why is Benjen in the NW anyway?

And further more, regarding the incest betwin Benjen and Lyanna in the tent, at the tournament.... that will explain Ned's reaction to Cercei. Ned told Cercei she can take the cildrens and leave, just like he told Benjen he can take the black and he will keep the secret. No women and children in the NW, so no place for Cercei there.... incest/incest, banished/banished. Ned did it again.

Oh and, Ned did not tried to stop Jon for taking the back... how could he? His father was there.

And the "promise me Ned", I don't get this at all. First of all, what ever the promise was, we can assume Ned did not kept it (because he talks of broken promises... so maybe he promised multiple things to Lyanna or he made also other promises... maybe one to Benjen??)

And second of all, why, why was Ned the one making a promise?? Ok. Let's say Lyanna was closed to death, after childbirth, let's say the baby was Jon, father of the new born  let's even say it was Rhaegar. Well... If I was near my sister's death bed, and she was in pain, no chance to survive, bleading, then I will be the one making lots of talking and lots of promises: don't worry my sweet sister... I will raise the child like my own... everything will be okay.... I am here for you... hold my hand and so on. 
I always belived the promise had nothing to do with the baby.
1. Because Ned was reluctant to do it. And maybe even didn't done it at all (broken promises thing).
2. Because Lyanna had to ask (taking care of his nephew would suposse to came natural in a world when every birth is a risk of death... even if the baby was born from incest... or even if he was half Targaryan... )
3. Might be that it had something to do with Robert, and Ned was reluctant because he and Robert were so good friends. And now, since he is hand of the kind, memories are coming back to him.

And finally, why Ned did not think of Rhaegar? If he was the father, right? 
 

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On 6/29/2017 at 3:25 PM, TMIFairy said:

I suppose that Lyanna was gang raped by Rheagar and his paragons of chivalry, so Jon's parentage is impossible to determine.

Lyanna + Arthur Dayne = Jon

I like it.

On 4/23/2018 at 6:44 AM, Maria Maria said:

I don't know why, but I still think Benjen Stark is Jon's father. Always belived this.
I have a few points for this:
- Benjen calls Jon "son"
- Benjen thinks that taking the black is a bad move and then he tries to convince Jon to change his mind
- then have a moment on the wall, the "I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time"; for me is like a parent thing, who wants to be there for the important moments of his kid's life
- Jon did not had a perfect childhood and Benjen was never there for him, but he hoped that Jon will have a family of his own one day, love someone and maybe ever be finally happy (since Benjen cannot have other children of his own and he did not get the chance to raise his only son).... not sure about the woman and the love in Benjen's case... maybe he only loved Lyanna and does not even think of someone else.

And then, why is Benjen in the NW anyway?

And further more, regarding the incest betwin Benjen and Lyanna in the tent, at the tournament.... that will explain Ned's reaction to Cercei. Ned told Cercei she can take the cildrens and leave, just like he told Benjen he can take the black and he will keep the secret. No women and children in the NW, so no place for Cercei there.... incest/incest, banished/banished. Ned did it again.

Oh and, Ned did not tried to stop Jon for taking the back... how could he? His father was there.

And the "promise me Ned", I don't get this at all. First of all, what ever the promise was, we can assume Ned did not kept it (because he talks of broken promises... so maybe he promised multiple things to Lyanna or he made also other promises... maybe one to Benjen??)

And second of all, why, why was Ned the one making a promise?? Ok. Let's say Lyanna was closed to death, after childbirth, let's say the baby was Jon, father of the new born  let's even say it was Rhaegar. Well... If I was near my sister's death bed, and she was in pain, no chance to survive, bleading, then I will be the one making lots of talking and lots of promises: don't worry my sweet sister... I will raise the child like my own... everything will be okay.... I am here for you... hold my hand and so on. 
I always belived the promise had nothing to do with the baby.
1. Because Ned was reluctant to do it. And maybe even didn't done it at all (broken promises thing).
2. Because Lyanna had to ask (taking care of his nephew would suposse to came natural in a world when every birth is a risk of death... even if the baby was born from incest... or even if he was half Targaryan... )
3. Might be that it had something to do with Robert, and Ned was reluctant because he and Robert were so good friends. And now, since he is hand of the kind, memories are coming back to him.

And finally, why Ned did not think of Rhaegar? If he was the father, right? 
 

I think the timeline for a conception at the tourney at harrenhall whether Ned and Ashara, Benjen and Lyanna, Robert and Lyanna, Brandon and whoever doesn't line up, for Jon would have been much older.

I think a dying mother would force Ned to make promises. I do think that is reasonable. The promise could be to raise him, but as you said, Ned would have done so anyway. Likely the promise is to not tell Robert.

Either way if Lyanna is the mother, it will be hard to prove any other parentage other than Rhaegar as he almost 100% slept with her, so he is impossible to rule out without a Westerosi paternity test (patent pending). She could have slept with a hundred other men, and all it would do is muddy the waters.

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I was never entirely convinced,  mostly because that would favor Jon Snow too much. But I have to say,  the hints are pretty heavy. So the only reason I am expecting this theory to be false because I am internally waiting to be shocked. 

However since I am not an actual believer in the theory, I cannot ignore some plot holes. 

Most pro-RLJ argue that Ned only ever thinks about Lyanna and never the mother of his bastard,  he also never *hardly* thinks about Brandon, his father and never even, seriously never, thinks about his mother. 

And Jon Snow is northern to the bone. I get that children in westeros seem to favor a parent entirely, but he's too northern, too much,  that even if he's Rhaeghar's son,  I can never imagine anywhere without snow.

I believe "Snow" is his identity. And North. And he has a freaking werewolf he can warg, now if he also would own a dragon (and suppose he could warm it too),  it just becomes very uncharacteristic of him.

He may be the son of Lyanna and Rhaeghar. He may be the song of ice and fire. But he is more ice. And will always be ice. 

(plus even if I do buy the RLJ theory,  I can't except that Lyanna ran away. And if she did, I hope no one ever finds out. Too many people died of her and Rhaeghar's foolishness. And just a sidenote Rhaeghar is such a depressed soul)

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On 8/11/2017 at 4:18 AM, The Great Udder said:

Check out the Order of the Green Hand videos in youtube if you want an alternative theory on Jon's parentage.

 

But theirs is an alternative that makes no sense whatsoever, like all their "theories". They either twist the text so that it fits their ideas, or altogether ignore large parts of it for the same reason. 

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This is something that I'm not sure ever needs to be determined in the series. One thing I get out of this saga is that your blood and where you come from means absolutely nothing. It's all about what these characters choose to do with their destiny and how they go about it. Let's say he is a Targaryen. Who cares? Vicerys and Eggs douche brother were just weak and cruel men. Maybe he's a Dayne. Coward Darkstar tried to kill a little girl, and couldn't even do it right. Fuck origins and prophesies. The sistermen might have the right of Jon's parentage. Jon can achieve greatness through his actions regardless of a not so significant birth story. Unless he's dead now anyway.   

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6 hours ago, Mooncalf said:

This is something that I'm not sure ever needs to be determined in the series. One thing I get out of this saga is that your blood and where you come from means absolutely nothing. It's all about what these characters choose to do with their destiny and how they go about it. Let's say he is a Targaryen. Who cares? Vicerys and Eggs douche brother were just weak and cruel men. Maybe he's a Dayne. Coward Darkstar tried to kill a little girl, and couldn't even do it right. Fuck origins and prophesies. The sistermen might have the right of Jon's parentage. Jon can achieve greatness through his actions regardless of a not so significant birth story. Unless he's dead now anyway.   

I agree it's more about your actions than your pedigree. That said, Martin said we will learn the truth, and more importantly, so will Jon himself. 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree it's more about your actions than your pedigree. That said, Martin said we will learn the truth, and more importantly, so will Jon himself. 

So he's alive?  I mean I know the whole fandom believes he is. But is he? 

Cause MArtin said he's gonna find out too? 

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43 minutes ago, Chisa said:

So he's alive?  I mean I know the whole fandom believes he is. But is he? 

Cause MArtin said he's gonna find out too? 

Well, I for one don't think he died died, like but even if he did... he'll then find out as a zombie! :D

 

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Not really. I feel like between when the last book came out and now, there have been alot of videos and discussions made explaining why R+L=J isn't true. To be honest I feel like after releasing the first book GRRM noticed that alot more people where guessing R+L=J then he thought there would be, so he threw in a bunch of clues that point to potential other mothers of Jon Snow in later books, and like he predicted, a bunch of people fell for it. We had to wait 5 years for AFfC, 6 years for ADwD, and we have currently been waiting 7 years for TWoW, its only natural in that time people are examining every possible route ASOIAF could take. 

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hi everyone, happy friday :)

i know i've expressed my opinion before.
right now, i'm just feeling like i want to say a few more words regarding this.
nothing new.

i really do not believe jon snow is rheager's son. 
also - i'm not so sure that lyanna stark had a baby. 
if she did have a baby, the father was highly unlikely to be a married man.

i have no proof to post, no essay to summarize my theory.
just my opinion as a result of my multiple re-reads.

 

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