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Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

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I still believe in R+L = J.

That said, sure there’s more to be known about Ashara.

But the thing is... what if Ned never spoke about her, not because he loved her, but because somehow he felt betrayed?

Not only there’s the chance she slept with Brandon, but... she was very close to Elia.

And the point is that both those women were affected by the Raeghar + Lyanna romance.

Raeghar cheated on his wife with Lyanna, that lead also to Brandon’s death and that to the wedding between Ned and Cat.

Elia and Ashara had reasons... to hate Lyanna.

We don’t know if that’s the case, because we know nothing about them.

I think this would be an interesting twist.

Edited by skystark

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On 5/21/2017 at 11:27 PM, Weirwood Ghost said:

Dany has dark purple eyes like amethysts (and like Ashara's via Selmy's PoV), not black, which is in contrast to Viserys lilac eyes. Jon looks more a Stark than Catelyn's other children because he looks like Lyanna, in the way that Ned tells Arya she looks like her aunt Lyanna.

I have pondered the alternative to Jon's parentage and keep coming to L+R= J because of the literary hints Martin has given us. It's Daenerys that bakes my noodle when thinking about her parentage...

Have you seen my theory regarding Alysanne and Queen's Crown. It links Bael the Bard in the Crypts. Both of which have mirrors in the current story with theories surrounding a birth in the Black Cells of K.L. -Crypts and The Tower of Joy- Queen's Crown Tower.

Crowning is a birthing term. And i suspect the reason for the 1st quarrel of Alysanne and Jaehaerys. 

Im waiting for the new book Fire and Blood to conclude further as GRRM has recently changed the family tree. 

Though Gael (Bael) the Winter Child was still left the 13th child. (13 makes me think of the Night's King, Jon dies on his 13th pov chapter in Dance, etc)

Gael also had an unknown child whos identity and anything else is unknown. Whether they lived to adult hood, or anything.

*Warning, theory suggest Mance is Jon's father, not Rhaegar. Hence where the blue rose came from at the Tourney. Mance was a ranger in the Nights' watch at the time and 2 members were at the Tourney of Harrenhal recruiting memebers. 

P.s. The Dayne-Heiress is Daenerys ;)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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GRRM says fever dreams can't be taken literally. So I think there will be more to the whole Tower of Joy/ Harrenhal backstory. I support R + L = J, there just has to be more to it. I love the Mance is Rhaegar theory.

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On 8/19/2017 at 4:34 PM, TMIFairy said:

1 - what was important to her at that time and place is pure speculation, Just as well it could had been "bury me in the crypts at Winterfell". Or "plant flower X on my grave". Or even - "promise me I will not die".

He made her promises, plural, and paid a price to keep them, so she asked of him something that came at a cost on his part. 

Also:

- Lyanna's reaction to his promise is very much like Barra's mother's after he promises to take care of her child.

- Lyanna's pleading reminds him of Sansa pleading with him to stop the Lannisters from killing Lady (and he remembers Robert turning away from Sansa's pleas)

On 8/19/2017 at 4:34 PM, TMIFairy said:

2 - again pure speculation. There could be several reasons - more or less important, or simply "it seemed a good idea at that time", for the hush-hush.

Ned thinks about secrets too dangerous to share, even with those he loves and trusts. The only secret we know him to be holding is the identity of Jon's mother.

On 4/23/2018 at 12:44 PM, Maria Maria said:

And the "promise me Ned", I don't get this at all. First of all, what ever the promise was, we can assume Ned did not kept it (because he talks of broken promises... so maybe he promised multiple things to Lyanna or he made also other promises... maybe one to Benjen??)

Incorrect. In the chapter where he visits little Barra in the brothel, he thinks about himself as a man who keeps his vows and about the price that he paid to keep the promises to Lyanna.

The part about broken promises comes only when he is imprisoned in the black cells and it is unclear whether it was even promises he made himself (e.g. to Robert).

On 4/23/2018 at 12:44 PM, Maria Maria said:

I always belived the promise had nothing to do with the baby.
1. Because Ned was reluctant to do it. And maybe even didn't done it at all (broken promises thing).
2. Because Lyanna had to ask (taking care of his nephew would suposse to came natural in a world when every birth is a risk of death... even if the baby was born from incest... or even if he was half Targaryan... )
3. Might be that it had something to do with Robert, and Ned was reluctant because he and Robert were so good friends. And now, since he is hand of the kind, memories are coming back to him.

Taking care of Lyanna's secret baby demanded that Ned, who abhorred lying, would have to lie to everyone, and it would be treason to his new king. It was no easy thing that Lyanna was asking.

 

On 4/23/2018 at 12:44 PM, Maria Maria said:

And finally, why Ned did not think of Rhaegar? If he was the father, right? 

That is incorrect. The quote goes, the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. It doesn't mean that a thoughtof Rhaegar never ever crossed his mind because he is reminded of Rhaegar every couple of pages. Here, the first time in years, he actively accesses his memories about Rhaegar, what he knows about the man, to make an assessment.

On 7/24/2018 at 3:09 PM, Chisa said:

Most pro-RLJ argue that Ned only ever thinks about Lyanna and never the mother of his bastard,  he also never *hardly* thinks about Brandon, his father and never even, seriously never, thinks about his mother. 

And since no-one else ever mentions the late Lady Stark, either, she is of zero importance to the current story. Rickard plays a role only as Aerys' victim, and Brandon started LF's complex of inferiority and is suspect of being the one who dishonored Ashara. From the narrative point of view, no reason to write a lot about them. Whereas, the mysterious mother of a main character...

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On 7/26/2018 at 3:46 PM, Mooncalf said:

This is something that I'm not sure ever needs to be determined in the series. One thing I get out of this saga is that your blood and where you come from means absolutely nothing. It's all about what these characters choose to do with their destiny and how they go about it. Let's say he is a Targaryen. Who cares? Vicerys and Eggs douche brother were just weak and cruel men. Maybe he's a Dayne. Coward Darkstar tried to kill a little girl, and couldn't even do it right. Fuck origins and prophesies. The sistermen might have the right of Jon's parentage. Jon can achieve greatness through his actions regardless of a not so significant birth story. Unless he's dead now anyway.   

The reveal isn't actually that important for Jon's character, as you say it doesn't really matter where you come from. But this is vitally important for Ned's character. It says a huge amount about him and his actions. 

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No, in my opinion R+L=J and all the evidence surrounding it becomes more clear on every re-read. Mostly because on a re-read you notice the more subtle parts of the story, so R+L=J too.

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i don't really belive in r+l=j at least its r+l=j&d but i think its more complex.

i agot there is one missing baby and one mysterios baby, if it was joanne k rowlings work, sure missing=myterious baby, but i doubt george would do it like this.

i always question theories that are belived by most of the fandom, most of the time they are way to easy and wouldn't provide a good twist

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I'm starting to think that Howland Reed fathered Lyanna's child and her name is Meera Reed. There is 1 passage that sticks out to me.

Quote

AGoT Eddard 1: He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his... Now calm down I know this can mean multiple things, but it does stand out to me. The fact that Lyanna is holding flowers for some reason after giving birth is strange, unless Howland Reed had taken her hand and married her. An idea i've had was that after the tourney at Harrenhall, Lyanna was on her way back North and was to marry Howland in the neck, but then she was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. I don't know if Rhaegar had done it for her own safety, or jealousy, or his delusions of TPTWP were so strong he needed her. I'm not sold on this idea and as I do my read through I have multiple theories revolving Lyanna to keep in mind, and this is just one of them. Now this is only going to be my third read through and I'm only at AGoT, but this is the first time I am actively taking notes on any passages that could be cryptic or foreshadowing and this was just one of them.

Edited by kleevedge

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On a different note, regarding Jon's parents, I stumbled across a few passages that could hint to Benjen Stark being his father.

Quote

AGoT Jon 1: (Benjen Stark talking to Jon about joining the Night's Watch)" You might if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son." Jon felt anger rise inside him. " I'm not your son!" Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

now in this passage it seems that Benjen is reflecting on what the oath has costed him, and he even goes as far as to call Jon son.  When Jon says he's not his son Benjen feels pity. The line that stands out to me the most though is the last one. Benjen is implying that he has fathered a bastard or bastards and know the feeling of regret he has being stuck on the wall. There is also another passage that hints towards this.

Quote

AGoT Catelyn 2: Benjen Stark was a sworn brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have.

Now Catelyn wouldn't be aware of Jon's parents, but it seems like it is being hinted at. I would find it ironic how all this time Jon is searching for his mother but when he goes to the wall and Benjen goes missing that now he's actually actively searching for his father without even knowing it. This is as far as I'm at right now on my read through, but I will be keeping a close eye for any more connections.

Edited by kleevedge

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6 hours ago, kleevedge said:

I'm starting to think that Howland Reed fathered Lyanna's child and her name is Meera Reed. There is 1 passage that sticks out to me.

Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his... Now calm down I know this can mean multiple things, but it does stand out to me. The fact that Lyanna is holding flowers for some reason after giving birth is strange, unless Howland Reed had taken her hand and married her. An idea i've had was that after the tourney at Harrenhall, Lyanna was on her way back North and was to marry Howland in the neck, but then she was "kidnapped" by Rhaegar. I don't know if Rhaegar had done it for her own safety, or jealousy, or his delusions of TPTWP were so strong he needed her. I'm not sold on this idea and as I do my read through I have multiple theories revolving Lyanna to keep in mind, and this is just one of them. Now this is only going to be my third read through and I'm only at AGoT, but this is the first time I am actively taking notes on any passages that could be cryptic or foreshadowing and this was just one of them.

Er... how was Lyanna to marry Howland when she was betrothed to Robert?

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Personally, the first time I read ASOIAF I figured it was ?+L=J that seemed blatantly obvious to me that the book was trying to push me in that direction. I am on w/e reread now and I am maybe 50/50 sure R+L=J is going to be happening. But, this could be because I have read it so many times that I am nitpicking things that aren't meant to be nitpicked. 

Each time I read it though, I become less and less convinced that R+L=J is legit. I still like N+A=J and the "promise me Ned" is something else completely different. Though, I know some people say it's Dany. I haven't really thought about it enough to agree with it, but on a gut level reaction I could possibly ... maybe ... see that being a thing...

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13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Er... how was Lyanna to marry Howland when she was betrothed to Robert? 

She didn't want to marry Robert, Lyanna and Howland could have easily hooked up at Harrenhal or the journey back from Harrenhal resulting in Lyanna getting pregnant. From that they were to be married, kinda like how Rob was betrothed to the Frey's but got Jeyne Westerling pregnant and married her instead. The only thing was Rhaegar "kidnapped" her before the marriage could take place. So when Ned reached Lyanna in the tower of Joy her dying wish was for her child (whether it be Meera or someone else) to not be a bastard and to perform a marriage to Howland.

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4 hours ago, kleevedge said:

She didn't want to marry Robert, Lyanna and Howland could have easily hooked up at Harrenhal or the journey back from Harrenhal resulting in Lyanna getting pregnant. From that they were to be married, kinda like how Rob was betrothed to the Frey's but got Jeyne Westerling pregnant and married her instead. The only thing was Rhaegar "kidnapped" her before the marriage could take place. So when Ned reached Lyanna in the tower of Joy her dying wish was for her child (whether it be Meera or someone else) to not be a bastard and to perform a marriage to Howland.

A couple of problems here:

- Ned reminiscences about Lyanna in connection with blue roses. The person who gave her blue roses was Rhaegar, not Howland

- Lyanna died in childbirth, or of childbirth complications, some time after the Sack. The Rebellion kicked off only after her disappearance and lasted for about a year. If she got pregnant pre-Rebellion, the child would have been born long before its end.

 

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On 5/31/2017 at 6:48 AM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I would be very disappointed with that. Ned never thinks of Jon's mother, but he thinks a lot about Lyanna. If N+A=J, poor Jon Snow had a really cruel father who would take his son away from his mother and never mention her to him, or give him hints. The whole mystery surrounding Jon's parentage is what made him so sullen and melancholic. If his father took him away from his mother, never mentions her, raises him with a very hurt and resentful Catelyn, of course Jon would think she was some horrible whore.

The fact that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years is just as strange as him not dwelling on Ashara (to me)

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3 hours ago, dmfn said:

The fact that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years is just as strange as him not dwelling on Ashara (to me)

Sigh. This is a myth that needs to be busted. Nowhere is it stated that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years, the quote goes " for the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar".

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4 hours ago, dmfn said:

The fact that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years is just as strange as him not dwelling on Ashara (to me)

The quote "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen" occurs in Eddard's 9th chapter in AGOT.

Ned has conversations with Robert about Rhaegar in his 1st and 2nd chapters in AGOT, including remembering coming onto the scene after the battle between Robert and Rhaegar to find Rhaegar laying dead in the stream.

Ned remembers Rhaegar's infant son, and the way Robert had turned away, in his 4th chapter in AGOT. 

Ned thinks of Robert smashing Tywin like he smashed Rhaegar in his 7th chapter in AGOT.

Ned tells Robert he never knew him to fear Rhaegar in his 8th chapter in AGOT, and elsewhere in his 8th chapter he "suddenly, uncomfortably" found himself recalling Rhaegar.

So it should be needless to say that it hadn't been years since Ned thought about Rhaegar. Ned thought and talked about Rhaegar throughout AGOT.

That Ned "found himself remembering Rhaegar""for the first time in years" in AGOT: Eddard IX, then, clearly does not mean he hadn't thought or spoken of Rhaegar in years.

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The quote "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen" occurs in Eddard's 9th chapter in AGOT.

Ned has conversations with Robert about Rhaegar in his 1st and 2nd chapters in AGOT, including remembering coming onto the scene after the battle between Robert and Rhaegar to find Rhaegar laying dead in the stream.

Ned remembers Rhaegar's infant son, and the way Robert had turned away, in his 4th chapter in AGOT. 

Ned thinks of Robert smashing Tywin like he smashed Rhaegar in his 7th chapter in AGOT.

Ned tells Robert he never knew him to fear Rhaegar in his 8th chapter in AGOT, and elsewhere in his 8th chapter he "suddenly, uncomfortably" found himself recalling Rhaegar.

So it should be needless to say that it hadn't been years since Ned thought about Rhaegar. Ned thought and talked about Rhaegar throughout AGOT.

That Ned "found himself remembering Rhaegar""for the first time in years" in AGOT: Eddard IX, then, clearly does not mean he hadn't thought or spoken of Rhaegar in years.

Saving for future reference when that idiotic myth resurfaces.

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7 hours ago, dmfn said:

The fact that Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years is just as strange as him not dwelling on Ashara (to me)

It's what the others said. Ned thinks of Rhaegar frequently. He thinks about his death on the Trident, he thinks about his dead children. The brothel chapter, Ned goes a step further in his thoughts about Rhaegar by thinking about the man he was. His thoughts about Rhaegar have nothing to do with his death or his dead children, they have to do with the man himself and his nature.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Also, one tiiiny issue: why does Ned bother remembering Rhaegar at all? He is thinking about Robert's whoring and its consequences, he mentions how Lyanna didn't like this about Robert, but why the hell does he ponder whether Rhaegar was whoring unless Rhaegar was to Lyanna what Robert was supposed to be? Like, my BF does this thing I mightily disapprove of, my little sis disapproved, as well, so now I start wondering about a dead guy whose vices fourteen years ago are completely irrelevant to the current situation? 

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