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Lord Edric Baratheon

Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

OK, I'm going to muse out loud, as I don't know where I'm headed again (and yes, I do harbour a gut feeling in AD's direction..):

Well, I suppose if Ned said Jon was Lyanna's son and tried to keep the father's identity secret, then everyone (in-world) would assume it was Rhaegar anyway. Bobby would be a clear and present danger for baby Jon because of his assumed claim. And also Jon would become a focus for loyalists to coalesce around as a figurehead for a rebellion.

Yup.

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

f Ned named ANYONE other than Rhaegar, then that person had better run like hell or be dead already, cos Bobby's still got his warhammer - though if Arthur's dead, and Lyanna's dead, Jon ought to be safe from Robert, surely? He'd have no claim to the IT to undermine Robert's reign or attract rebels. It's possible Robert wouldn't believe Ned and thinks "that's a bit convenient, it's not Rhaegar's whelp and the baby-daddy is also dead. I don't think so. Who do I hit now?".

Maybe--but Robert tells Ned, "In my dream, I kill him every night." That 1000 deaths would be too good for Rhaegar.

That's got nothing to do with keeping the throne. That's a guy trapped in grief, the love and grief Ned calls Robert's madness.

Ned fears that madness--we see that. And he's got good reason, given Robert's reaction to the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon. Maybe Robert would eventually calm down--he does calm down after getting gored by the boar and calls off the hit on Dany--though no one in the novels is saying Dany is Rhaegar's.

But given what Ned's seen, he's got good reason to fear Robert's reaction to any child that is Lyanna's but not Robert's

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As Arthur was KG he couldn't marry, so Jon would have to remain a bastard (no claims of last minute wedding and all that....), but could have remained at Starfall as Jon Sand? I doubt it would have been a problem for Starfall. Lewyn Martell had a paramour, though, but that was covered up and I haven't heard of any offspring there. Yet bastards are no great shame in Dorne.

Yup But still--Lyanna's kid, and not Robert's. Dangerous territory.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As far as Arthur is concerned, all we hear of him are glowing reports - everyone from Jaime to Barristan to Ned himself, though mostly confined to his fighting prowess and loyalty to Rhaegar. Does Arthur have a dark side? The sort of dark side perhaps that would be consistent with the friendship House Dayne clearly shows to the Starks despite Ned having (allegedly) killed Arthur?

We don't know yet--but Martin's spent a lot of time showing how the most fabulous KG can still be less than perfect. And he brings in Arys Oakheart's affair with Arianne--after being sent to Dorne on the ship name the Lady Lyanna with Myrcella.

Plus, we have Dunk--full of Dayne imagery. He's a very good man, but falls for the wrong woman in Sworn Sword. And he's hardly flawless, despite being a really good man.

As for why the Daynes like Ned--I have all kinds of ideas, but all tied to symbols and indirect evidence. My guess? Ned agreed to keep the secret--for the Daynes (to keep away Robert's anger), for Jon, and--I think--Dany: I currently (subject to change at any moment) buy the theory that she's Rhaegar's and Ashara's. If Ned also agreed to help all of that after Arthur was involved in Rhaegar's huge mess--can see why the Daynes would respect Ned.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Let's also throw into the mix that it appears the combat at the ToJ occurred before Ned & Howland went inside. Assuming AD is Jon's father, then Ned wouldn't find out about this for a few more minutes when he finally finds Lyanna. That could mess him up a bit, I guess... so, did the dying Lyanna extract more promises from Ned than the assumed 'protect my son'? Did she insist on the concealed identity, that he be raised as a northerner?

Very possible--whether Lyanna was in the tower or elsewhere--this is all workable.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Whatever it was, we understand from Ned's thoughts and dreams that he kept the promises he made Lyanna, and that it cost him dear. There was a cost to his honour for havng a bastard, it clearly eroded his friendship with Robert, though he tried not to let it. And of course it didn't help with Catelyn.

Yup.

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I guess Ned could have just taken the responsibility as his own because he was able to slap down anyone who questioned his story, as he did with the Ashara rumours.

Maybe--but I really think it comes down to his fear of Robert's madness over Lyanna.

Though if Arthur is Jon's father--he wouldn't want any rumors pointing Jon to Starfall. And it may explain Ned's sadness in talking to Bran about Arthur--it would mean he'd unknowingly killed the man his sister loved. Killed Jon's father--now there's some guilt.

Though it hopefully goes without saying that there are LOTs of option in the books, the idea that Ned would lie to protect Jon if he was Lyanna's by any other man than Robert--seems like that's gotta be on the table.

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42 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

If Jon is Lyanna's kid w/ Arthur Dayne, why keep the truth from Cat, and at great cost? Doesn't make any sense IMO.

I honestly don't get why he lies to Cat no matter who Jon's father is--it hurts their marriage.

He does seem to possibly fear her indiscretion. But that fear fits no matter who the father is if Jon is Lyanna's and not Robert's.

Might also be guilt--if Arthur is the dad, Ned unknowingly killed his beloved sister's beloved. And Jon's father. Keeping that hidden until Jon is old enough to hear it, even keeping silent out of guilt--seems to fit with Ned.

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6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I honestly don't get why he lies to Cat no matter who Jon's father is--it hurts their marriage.

:agree:

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

He does seem to possibly fear her indiscretion. But that fear fits no matter who the father is if Jon is Lyanna's and not Robert's.

Here, not so much... my take has always been that keeping Jon's parentage secret is all about protecting people: Jon himself and Cat and his family in general. 

6 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Might also be guilt--if Arthur is the dad, Ned unknowingly killed his beloved sister's beloved. And Jon's father. Keeping that hidden until Jon is old enough to hear it, even keeping silent out of guilt--seems to fit with Ned.

Dunno... Like I said, I really do feel that it's about protecting others. Could be wrong, of course. 

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7 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Might also be guilt--if Arthur is the dad, Ned unknowingly killed his beloved sister's beloved. And Jon's father. Keeping that hidden until Jon is old enough to hear it, even keeping silent out of guilt--seems to fit with Ned.

That would be one difficult conversation -

"Your mum was my sister..."

"Ewww..."

"No, no, I'm not your real dad, I killed him..."

 

Well, we may wonder why he didn't tell Cat, but we have to remember at this point, they barely knew each other. They'd only really been together long enough to get Robb started before Ned went off with his banners. He needed Jon's story established pretty quickly when he took the baby home, and he didn't yet know what Cat could or could not be told. In hindsight, he might have regretted not letting Cat in on the truth :dunno:

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10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here, not so much... my take has always been that keeping Jon's parentage secret is all about protecting people: Jon himself and Cat and his family in general. 

Pretty much and we have some of Ned's fears as to why he may have kept the secret to himself.

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

I think this is the crux of Ned's dilemma. Catelyn freed Jaime in a bid to get Arya and Sansa back.

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9 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

That would be one difficult conversation -

"Your mum was my sister..."

"Ewww..."

"No, no, I'm not your real dad, I killed him..."

 

Well, we may wonder why he didn't tell Cat, but we have to remember at this point, they barely knew each other. They'd only really been together long enough to get Robb started before Ned went off with his banners. He needed Jon's story established pretty quickly when he took the baby home, and he didn't yet know what Cat could or could not be told. In hindsight, he might have regretted not letting Cat in on the truth :dunno:

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

I don't think that Arthur Dayne scenario qualifies.

Edited by Ygrain

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

I don't think that Arthur Dayne scenario qualifies.

Good point, Ned was thinking that.

I wonder though, could Ned consider the fact that Lyanna had a child at all to be ' a secret too dangerous to share', in a world in which Robert Baratheon was still harbouring massive resentment? Regardless of the child's paternity? I mean, is Robert finding out the biggest danger - I presume so, but I might be missing something.

I agree that R+L=J would be an absolute bombshell for Robert, and dangerous for a few more reasons beside. Even so, I don't think Robert would take kindly to A+L=J, ?+L=J or even ?+L=? either.

By the time Ned discovers Jon, he and Robert had already had a falling out over Rhaella's children. That was probably Ned's first disillusionment over Robert, that he was willing to see children dead for the benefit of his reign. It was still a sore point with Ned 15 or so years later, at the beginning of AGoT. Jon as Rhaegar's son is absolutely in danger: "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn" plus Robert's hatred of Targs being "a madness in him." I agree this is a strong pointer towards R+L=J, but as others have indicated, a strong pointer is sometimes misdirection with the George...

Let's take another look at Ned's memory:

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Because of the blood, I've always assumed that Lyanna had actually died in childbirth - though the reference to fever might suggest a different cause :dunno: Could be an infection following a haemorrhage?

However, that's not what I wanted to look at here - rather the fear in Lyanna's eyes. I don't think it was fear of dying - she was still dying after Ned's promise - and I doubt she really needed to extract a promise for her remains to be returned to Winterfell, so that was also an unlikely cause for her fear that could be promised away. That really only leaves her child - even on her deathbed she could fear for her child, and be reassured by a promise. Now, I don't think - now that Ned had arrived - that she feared Jon would just be abandoned or neglected. What we know of Ned suggests he's going to look after that baby one way or another, no need to promise that. So that promise needs to be something over and above the basic provision of care and shelter. Protection, anonymity, secrecy - all would fit as promises that could relieve Lyanna's fear, and I think we're being led to connect that to Ned's 'dangerous secrets'. So, regardless of any calculations Ned may have made about what he could tell Robert, or Cat, or the world at large, Lyanna herself knew of the danger to Jon. Did Ned have time (or inclination) to tell her that Robert had taken the throne? We don't know, and of course it's possible the news arrived by some other route. Assume she knew; assume also she knew the father was dead - again, it looks like she has far more cause to fear for Rhaegar's son than for Arthur's.

OK, my swingometer is going back towards Rhaegar: maybe 60:40 Rhaegar:Arthur :read:

Does anyone have a good reason why Lyanna would be so fearful if Arthur is the father?

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34 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Does anyone have a good reason why Lyanna would be so fearful if Arthur is the father?

I don't think there is one. Plus, you know, Ned did make a detour to Starfall, with I'm assuming baby in toe to return Dawn. He could have left the baby there too, if he was Arthur's. Heck, Arthur's eldest brother could have pretended Jon was his bastard son and raised him there.

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7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think there is one. Plus, you know, Ned did make a detour to Starfall, with I'm assuming baby in toe to return Dawn. He could have left the baby there too, if he was Arthur's. Heck, Arthur's eldest brother could have pretended Jon was his bastard son and raised him there.

I did mention somewhere upthread that Starfall could easily have taken in 'Jon Sand', but what I hadn't considered when I posted that was that Ned had already promised Lyanna before going to Starfall. Even if it was a workable solution to leave Jon with the Daynes (and then cover up Lyanna's pregnancy as per usual), Ned couldn't change his mind - he had promised. End of discussion for our Eddard, I suspect.

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33 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I did mention somewhere upthread that Starfall could easily have taken in 'Jon Sand', but what I hadn't considered when I posted that was that Ned had already promised Lyanna before going to Starfall. Even if it was a workable solution to leave Jon with the Daynes (and then cover up Lyanna's pregnancy as per usual), Ned couldn't change his mind - he had promised. End of discussion for our Eddard, I suspect.

That is true. But whatever promises he made to Lyanna seem to have been "ended" (so to speak) when Ned had to leave for King's Landing. Ned wants Jon to remain at Winterfell with Robb, but Catelyn won't have him there. If Jon is Arthur Dayne's son, and Arthur's family is aware of Jon's existence, then Jon doesn't need to end up at the Wall, does he? Ned has a ready solution for Jon if he wasn't going to take him to King's Landing for obvious reasons. If Jon had been presented the choice of going to his father's family, or the Wall, which one would he have chosen? He could even have sent Jon to Starfall under the guise of fostering. 

Jon goes to the Wall because he doesn't feel he has another option. If he is a Dayne by blood, then what does it say about Ned in this situation? 

Your father was the Sword of the Morning and you are part of a storied family with a legendary sword vs an order that is now made from criminals. 

Arthur doesn't come up once in the interaction between Ned and Robert. But Rhaegar does. Robert hates the man's guts, he hates him, in his dreams he kills him every night (I know it's probably a figure of speech). Fourteen years is a long ass time to hate someone that much, especially when Robert seems to have acknowledged indirectly that the story of kidnapping and rape is not the real story.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Here, not so much... my take has always been that keeping Jon's parentage secret is all about protecting people: Jon himself and Cat and his family in general. 

Absolutely--my only point is that there may be other reasons, too.

But no doubt about it: Lyanna was afraid before Ned's promise and less to afterwards.

Ned's lying to protect Jon--because the father of Lyanna's child isn't Robert.

Robert's anger and jealously against ANY father for Lyanna's child, ANY child of Lyanna's that wasn't Robert's--that's the fear. 

Be that father Rhaegar, Arthur, Howland, or Assistant Stable Hand #4.

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Does anyone have a good reason why Lyanna would be so fearful if Arthur is the father?

Yes--Robert's anger at Rhaegar is ALL about his jealously over losing Lyanna.

Why on earth wouldn't that anger apply to any man who "took" Lyanna from him?

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves." Game, Eddard I

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. Game, Eddard II.

Robert's hatred is NOT political. It's personal. And he's willing to take that anger and misery out on children. Ned has first hand proof of that.

ANY other father, ANY other family than Robert's--Lyanna and Ned both had reason to fear Robert's anger--the man keeps re-killing Rhaegar in his dreams more than a decade later. He CAN'T get over it.

Why should they think Jon would be safe at Starfall if he's a Dayne, any more than they'd think he'd be safe if he's a Targ? 

6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I don't think that Arthur Dayne scenario qualifies.

Given what we see of Ned's thoughts about Robert's emotions and madness about Lyanna--yes. 

Maybe Ned and Lyanna were overreacting--but given what we see of Ned's thoughts--absolutely.

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17 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That is true. But whatever promises he made to Lyanna seem to have been "ended" (so to speak) when Ned had to leave for King's Landing. Ned wants Jon to remain at Winterfell with Robb, but Catelyn won't have him there. If Jon is Arthur Dayne's son, and Arthur's family is aware of Jon's existence, then Jon doesn't need to end up at the Wall, does he? Ned has a ready solution for Jon if he wasn't going to take him to King's Landing for obvious reasons. If Jon had been presented the choice of going to his father's family, or the Wall, which one would he have chosen? He could even have sent Jon to Starfall under the guise of fostering. 

It needn't even be Starfall, he could send Jon off to squire for almost anyone to get him out of Winterfell... and you're right, it is revealing that Ned didn't seem to even consider this option.

 

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Me, I just want GRRM to get it over with and tell us who Jon’s mother is.

What? And spoil all this fun we're having :D

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think there is one. Plus, you know, Ned did make a detour to Starfall, with I'm assuming baby in toe to return Dawn. He could have left the baby there too, if he was Arthur's. Heck, Arthur's eldest brother could have pretended Jon was his bastard son and raised him there.

Not if he fears Robert's anger towards the man who stole Lyanna--if it's Arthur and the Daynes hid this--why on earth wouldn't Ned fear for Jon and the Daynes?

Robert doesn't hate the Targs because they are Targs. He hates them because they took Lyanna from him.

That's the source. That hatred would apply to any man, family, and child that was involved--be it Targ, Dayne, or anyone else--even without a name.

And Ned fears that "madness." Absolutely--rightly or wrongly, Ned fears it.

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12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

That would be one difficult conversation -

"Your mum was my sister..."

"Ewww..."

"No, no, I'm not your real dad, I killed him..."

Yup--though if Rhaegar is the father, the convo ain't much better:

My dad abandoned his family? To run off with a teenager?

It was twuu wuv. And they needed you to fulfill a prophecy.

He abandoned his family???? And let a civil war explode?

What could he have done?

Not abandon his family!!! And, once the war came out, man up and turn himself in. Challenge Robert to a duel at the Trident instead of letting thousands risk their lives--anything but what they did!!!

No good options here.

12 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, we may wonder why he didn't tell Cat, but we have to remember at this point, they barely knew each other. They'd only really been together long enough to get Robb started before Ned went off with his banners. He needed Jon's story established pretty quickly when he took the baby home, and he didn't yet know what Cat could or could not be told. In hindsight, he might have regretted not letting Cat in on the truth :dunno:

I completely buy this--there's a case to be made he made the wrong choice, in my opinion. 

But it's a human failing.

 

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31 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If Jon is Arthur Dayne's son, and Arthur's family is aware of Jon's existence, then Jon doesn't need to end up at the Wall, does he? Ned has a ready solution for Jon if he wasn't going to take him to King's Landing for obvious reasons. If Jon had been presented the choice of going to his father's family, or the Wall, which one would he have chosen? He could even have sent Jon to Starfall under the guise of fostering. 

Not if he's Arthur's by Lyanna--look at Robert's anger towards all Targs because one Targ took Lyanna. Why wouldn't Ned and the Daynes fear that anger would apply to all Daynes?

33 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If he is a Dayne by blood, then what does it say about Ned in this situation? 

That he's protecting him from Robert's wrath--at least the madness that Ned fears.

34 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Arthur doesn't come up once in the interaction between Ned and Robert. But Rhaegar does. Robert hates the man's guts, he hates him, in his dreams he kills him every night (I know it's probably a figure of speech). Fourteen years is a long ass time to hate someone that much, especially when Robert seems to have acknowledged indirectly that the story of kidnapping and rape is not the real story.

Right--because Robert believes Rhaegar took Lyanna from him.

Convo would be the same--just with a name change--if Robert thought any other man took Lyanna.

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42 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Me, I just want GRRM to get it over with and tell us who Jon’s mother is.

And father, I might add. 

@Sly Wren, I respectfully disagree with you. Your take on the story is different than mine, and that's totally fine. I do have a question, however. Why did Hightower and Whent die to protect a girl who was knocked up by Arthur? Isn't that a betrayal in on its own? Did they love Arthur that much that they would have willingly sacrificed their lives to protect the bastard child of a Kingsguard? Hightower and Whent could have easily gone to Rhaella and resumed their service on Dragonstone, or surrendered themselves to Robert. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Sly Wren, I respectfully disagree with you. Your take on the story is different than mine, and that's totally fine.

Amen! It's what makes the forums fun.:cheers:

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I do have a question, however. Why did Hightower and Whent die to protect a girl who was knocked up by Arthur? Isn't that a betrayal in on its own? Did they love Arthur that much that they would have willingly sacrificed their lives to protect the bastard child of a Kingsguard? Hightower and Whent could have easily gone to Rhaella and resumed their service on Dragonstone, or surrendered themselves to Robert. 

No way in hell are they defending Lyanna if Arthur's the father. 

They would have to have another mission.

My current guess is partly laid out here.

But in a nutshell: in the novels, we have three "stolen" Stark maids; Jon, Sansa, and Arya. And for NONE of these maids are they their "kidnappers'" primary mission.

Specifically, Jon with Mance (full of Rhaegar imagery)--Mance has a wife who will produce a child after he's presumed dead. Jon ain't his mission--Jon's just a useful "turncoat" Mance got by accident.

And Arya with the brotherhood without banners--the brotherhood has a confrontation/conversation with the Hound (a usurper's dog) that strongly echoes the 3KG's convo with Ned. Then they have a ritual fight and the usurper's dog wins.

But note: the Starks maid again is NOT their primary mission. She's a useful hostage they ended up with by accident that they think they can use to get cash for their cause--but the Stark maid is not the mission.

Even Sansa--she's taken by Baelish (Bael reference) to his unnamed, rundown tower. Baelish has a nickname for the tower--Drearfort. It's all a clear tower of joy reference. But again--the Stark maid isn't the one having "joy"--that's between Baelish and another women: Lysa. Lysa even screams during sex, begging Baelish to make her a baby.

Bottom line: Martin keeps showing us that Lyanna-related Stark maids end up as hostages--but are not the love interest or primary mission.

I think Lyanna was likely the same--never the primary mission. The KG were never protecting Lyanna any further than the brotherhood protect Arya.

Like Mance, Stannis, the brotherhood, and even Baelish--Rhaegar and the KG had another mission entirely--that would explain why Martin keeps showing us a similar pattern for Stolen Stark maids throughout the books.

And even why the KG don't bring up Lyanna--she's not what they are fighting for.

 

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14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Not if he fears Robert's anger towards the man who stole Lyanna--if it's Arthur and the Daynes hid this--why on earth wouldn't Ned fear for Jon and the Daynes?

Robert doesn't hate the Targs because they are Targs. He hates them because they took Lyanna from him.

That's the source. That hatred would apply to any man, family, and child that was involved--be it Targ, Dayne, or anyone else--even without a name.

And Ned fears that "madness." Absolutely--rightly or wrongly, Ned fears it.

I think quite rightly: it is made clear that Robert would go way beyond the bounds of what's at all acceptable, given the chance.

On the other hand (or is it? Dunno yet...), when Ned and Lyanna are doing the death-bed scene, Robert is utterly convinced it is all Rhaegar's fault already, and Ned has seen the depth of Robert's loathing already. Lyanna hasn't - has Ned told her about it, stoking that fear in her eyes? Insufficient evidence on that, alas. She knows he is a womaniser who won't keep to one bed, but would she go from there to understand his obsessive possessiveness?

I absolutely agree Robert is capable of killing Rhaegar's child - but is his protested love for Lyanna enough to hold him back from killing Lyanna's child? On reflection, I don't think it is. He strikes me as one of those 'If I can't have...' types. His obsession with Lyanna is almost as unhealthy as his obsession with Rhaegar, just in the opposite direction. We as readers see that with the benefit of 15 years hindsight, but is Lyanna really that well acquainted with Robert?

You know, I'm beginning to get 'Helen of Troy' vibes around this part of the story - which in different versions has either Paris abducting and raping Helen, or the pair eloping. Unfortunately, the endings are so many and varied it's hard to guess which version might give us a clue...

Oh, and irrelevant but spooky factoid:

Spoiler

In the 2018 TV miniseries Troy: Fall of a City, Helen was portrayed by Bella Dayne. :D

 

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35 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

On the other hand (or is it? Dunno yet...), when Ned and Lyanna are doing the death-bed scene, Robert is utterly convinced it is all Rhaegar's fault already, and Ned has seen the depth of Robert's loathing already. Lyanna hasn't - has Ned told her about it, stoking that fear in her eyes? Insufficient evidence on that, alas

The Kingsguard knew everything that had happened when Ned found them. They knew about Rhaegar's death, they knew about the Sack of King's Landing, the death of Aerys and even though it's not something that's mentioned, I'm assuming they would have known of the brutal murders of Rhaenys and Aegon. 

There's a very good chance they passed the information on to Lyanna.

And the show you mentioned is so so very bad!

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