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Is anyone else growing less and less convinced of r+l=j, as the re-read goes on...

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i will disagree.  as i re-read i become more sure that jon is a true-born child of the north.

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44 minutes ago, Yaya said:

i will disagree.  as i re-read i become more sure that jon is a true-born child of the north.

He's taking after his mama's side of the family. Nature and nurture working together, I suppose :-)

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I was 100% sure, that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that he's also new Azor Ahai, and the last, third head of the dragon (the other two is Dany and her son, Rhaego, who is actually alive, and was kidnapped either by Dothraki, or by Shiera Seastar (who is a shadowbinder Quaithe), either for his Dothraki blood, or for his dragonseed blood, and thus his kidnapping, is first out of three treasons, predicted by the Undying - the one for blood). And that Dawn of Daynes is Lightbringer. So to weild Lightbringer it's owner has to have blood of Daynes.

It's possible, that first Azor Ahai was first Dayne, the one that has build Starfall. He was R'hllor's Red Priest in Asshai (even the city was named after him - Asshai - Az/sor's ahai), and when First Long Ningt ended, he left Asshai, an went west, bringing with him his people, first to Valyria, and then to Dorne. So Daynes and Valyrians both have purple eyes because they have common ancestor - first Azor Ahai. First Long Night, the Others, Azor Ahai, Lightbringer - all of it happened without dragons. GRRM didn't wanted to make dragons part of his plot. Thus it's possible, that Second Long Night and the war against the Others he also planned without involvement of dragons.

There are three Messiahs, that will save people from Long Night (Dany, Rhaego, Jon), not because they are three heads of the dragon (that were an addition to plot, that GRRM has made later, after he decided to use dragons, as part of ASOIAF's plot), but because they are GRRM's parallel to The Holy Trinity - The Mother, The Son, The Holy Ghost. Also all three of them (Dany, Rhaego, Jon) are parallels to Jesus. GRRM is Catholic, he was raised in a very religious environment.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/about-george/life-and-times/bayonne/

Quote

"Yes, I was born Catholic, like almost everybody else in Bayonne. Back then, a “mixed marriage” was when an Irish Catholic married an Italian Catholic."

"Mary Jane Donohoe School — also known as #4 school — was where I went to grade school, from kindergarten through eighth grade. The school was on Fifth Street and my family never owned a car, so I walked those four blocks every day. I had to pass St. Andrew’s on the way, the Catholic grade school. The city was so Catholic that the parochial schools had classes twice the size of the public schools. My mother figured I would get a better education in a smaller class, so she sent me to Mary Jane Donohoe… even after a parish priest came by the projects to warn her that if she persisted in her folly, she and I would both surely go to hell."

So the original basis for ASOIAF is Bible-based. Second Long Night is GRRM's parallel to Biblical Apocalypse. Rhaego, who is the Stallion that mounts the world, and Khal of Khals, is a parallel to Jesus, who was in the Book of Apocalypse called King of kings and Lord of lords. Also in the Bible it was said, that Jesus is the great shepherd, that will guide all nations. About Rhaego it was said, that all people of the world will be his herd <- if people are his herd, then he is the shepherd. In the Bible the sword comes out of Jesus' mouth, in Dany's vision of grown up Rhaego, she saw fire coming out of his mouth. This sword and fire are both metaphorical. And there are many other clues and hints, that ASOIAF is slightly based on the Bible.

Someone can argue, that even though I saw a few parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible's plot, it doesn't mean, that GRRM is writing stories based on the Bible. But that isn't so, he does write (at least did before) parallels to Biblical plot. For example this, summary from Wikipedia of GRRM book, that he wrote prior AGOT:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon

Quote

Damien Har Veris, a priest skilled in resolving heretical disputes efficiently, although now spiritually exhausted, is sent by his alien archbishop as Knight Inquisitor to deal with a particular cult that has made a saint of Judas Iscariot.

The sect follows a religious text, The Way of Cross and Dragon, that describes the life of Iscariot, and revises his place in Christianity. The text describes how, born of a prostitute, Iscariot mastered the dark arts to become a tamer of dragons and the ruler of a great empire. After torturing and maiming Christ, Iscariot repented and relinquished his empire to become the penitent Legs of Christ, the first and best-beloved of the Twelve Apostles. Returning from proselytizing to find Christ crucified, an enraged Iscariot then destroyed the perpetrating empire and strangled St. Peter for renouncing Christ, only to discover, too late, Christ's Resurrection. Rejecting Judas' violence, Christ restored St. Peter to life and gave him the keys of the kingdom. St. Peter then suppressed the truth about Judas, vilifying his name and exploits. Seeking redemption for his wrath, Iscariot became the thousand-year-old Wandering Jew, before finally rejoining Christ in the Kingdom of God.

Perusing the materials of the sect, Har Veris finds himself enjoying the fanciful, creative but ultimately ridiculous narrative, finding it far more interesting than the more mundane heresies that have developed around power, money and doctrinal quibbles.

Arriving on the sect's distant planet onboard his ship, the Truth of Christ, Har Veris confronts its heresiarch, Lukyan Judasson, creator of the Way of Cross and Dragon narrative, but finds that he is already expected. Questioning Judasson, Har Veris uncovers a conspiracy of nihilistic Liars, who see Truth as entropy and despair, and who wish to soften and color the ultimately meaningless lives of others by creating belief in carefully crafted Lies; they create faiths. They have perpetrated this Judas cult as well as others, and now want Har Veris to join them. Despite his own spiritual exhaustion, he realizes that, though he may be losing his faith, he has not lost his passion for truth. When he refuses to join the Liars, Judasson wishes to have him silenced, but his senior in the conspiracy, a misshapen psionic mutant, senses the impending Liar in Har Veris, and allows him to go.

Har Veris then uses political manipulation and the public's fear and distrust of psychic powers to turn the tide on the Judas cult, resolving yet another heresy with dispatch. When, much later, he fully acknowledges that he has lost his faith, his superior is indifferent: results are what is needed, and Har Veris is to continue in his role as inquisitor. The priest accepts this, realizing that the psychic was right: he is himself a consummate Liar, perpetuating a faith in which he no longer believes.

However, departing on his next Inquisition, he has named his new starship Dragon.

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

Quote

While peaceably eating in a restaurant, Tuf is attacked by Jaime Kreen. Kreen is convicted for the attack and bonded to Tuf as a servant in debt. Kreen explains that his society (a technologically advanced secondary colony established as an arcology on the planet Charity) has been taken over by a primitivist religious leader named Moses. Taking his cues from the Bible, Moses had unleashed plagues on the inhabitants of the arcology, driving them out of their city into the countryside to labor and suffer under Moses' back-to-nature Holy Altruistic Restoration.

Kreen had attempted to murder Tuf because he blames Moses' plagues upon Tuf, who has gained an interstellar reputation as an ecological engineer, and Tuf realizes that Moses' "plagues" (actually low-tech simulations easily imposed by sabotage upon the closed system of an arcology) offer him an opportunity for revenue.

Kreen is sent down to the planet to bring back the former leaders of the now-conquered and evacuated arcology for negotiations, and Tuf offers to help them against Moses for a hefty fee. Using the Ark's technology, Tuf introduces himself to Moses as God, in the guise of a pillar of fire. He afflicts the followers of Moses with the bibilical plagues of legend, but these are widespread planetary ecological assaults instead of Moses' fraudulent localized afflictions.

After two such attacks, Tuf invites Moses aboard the Ark and shows him simulations of the increasingly horrible plagues that he could further inflict upon Moses and his followers. Moses, frightened, gives up his claim on the arcology's population, allowing them to escape his nasty, brutish religious fanaticism and return to the comforts of modern civilization.

And this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Manna_from_Heaven"

So GRRM indeed use Biblical parallels in his works, and ASOIAF is not an exception.

Thus it's likely, that Dany, Rhaego and Jon will defeat the Others, but it has nothing to do with the dragons, the three of them together is new Azor Ahai, because they are descendants of first Azor Ahai, thru their ancestor Queen Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V. Though the thing is, even if Jon is not Rhaegar's son, and Ned Stark is actually Jon's father, Jon still could be bloodrelated to first Azor Ahai. That's if his mother is Ashara Dayne <- I'm not supporter of this theory, but now I see, that it is possible.

Jon could be not Rhaegar's son, but he is still Azor Ahai.

I still prefer the idea R+L=J, but now I suppose, that it could be wrong.

 

Edited by Megorova

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The fact that people say "theres actually little evidence to support R+L=J" is still mindboggling to me. Its a 100% false statement. Anyway, as for me, I havent been swayed to any other direction, even after multiple re-reads.

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