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Sense8: why...so...sensitive (spoilers)

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On 6/9/2017 at 9:58 AM, Corvinus said:

Well that's it then. I suppose they may consider a movie as Wert said, but who knows.

I wonder if Amazon or one of the subscription channels (HBO, Starz etc) would consider buying it from Netflix.

LOL... I was just thinking that usually, when a good show gets canned, we hope that Netflix will save it... 

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5 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

LOL... I was just thinking that usually, when a good show gets canned, we hope that Netflix will save it... 

Yep, I think that adds an even more bitterness too it. :( 

Unless Amazon wants to somehow show it can out Netflix Netflix, but I doubt it. 

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Anyone hoping to buy the rights would have to act quickly though. Shooting this show is a lot of effort and commitment. The cast and Wachowskis will surely be moving on to other projects soon and once they start that it's going to be hard getting a time where they are all available

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On 6/10/2017 at 3:02 AM, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah when Netflix decided to cancel it's queerest show on the first day of pride month it was clear they didn't give a fuck and wouldn't be changing their minds.

Yeah, the timing was just the biggest fucking rude gesture they could have made with it. To the comment that OITNB may be queerer...OITNB is a show that has queer characters, sense8 is a queer show. Queerness pervaded every element, allegories, textual examples, moments of triumph that wouldn't ring at their full volume for anyone that wasnt intimately close to a trans person...it goes on and on.

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I think there is a strong possibility that the Wachowskis themselves were not completely 100% on board with carrying on. Lily clearly was having a tough time and Lana apparently almost burned herself out doing the show on that scale. Doing that three more times probably didn't appeal, especially given they can go back to making movies with a lot more production time and more money.

Some of the Netflix cancellation staff apparently were brief to tell callers that the producers had decided not to carry on, so there may be some truth in that.

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I'd be willing to give a lot more benefit of the doubt if the announcement had been 1 week earlier or 1 month later. I just don't see why you'd announce it on the first day of pride if you were even trying to be considerate to the queer fanbase of this show, and surely they would have been if it was due to the Wachowskis not being able to continue it.

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On 11/06/2017 at 5:36 PM, drawkcabi said:

Yep, I think that adds an even more bitterness too it. :( 

Unless Amazon wants to somehow show it can out Netflix Netflix, but I doubt it. 

Yeah, Amazon is the only candidate but that would be an expensive bit of one-upmanship.

On 12/06/2017 at 8:14 PM, Werthead said:

I think there is a strong possibility that the Wachowskis themselves were not completely 100% on board with carrying on. Lily clearly was having a tough time and Lana apparently almost burned herself out doing the show on that scale. Doing that three more times probably didn't appeal, especially given they can go back to making movies with a lot more production time and more money.

Some of the Netflix cancellation staff apparently were brief to tell callers that the producers had decided not to carry on, so there may be some truth in that.

If that's the case then screw them. I'm not committing to their films if they can't commit to their own shows. Especially given the message behind the shows central themes it would seem hypocritical to can it.

In many ways I wish there'd been a way of both wachowskis stepping aside, JMS being given more of a role and some of the shows other directors stepping up. That would have probably brought the cost down and while some of the visual flare may have disappeared I think it would have survived. At least for a wrap up. The thing is I get the impression that JMS never really wanted to be a huge part of the show besides the writing and getting it off the ground. Plus he has a strong history of being more creator owned and he openly admitted this was the Wachowski's show first and foremost. I'd still hope he'd consider doing a comic or maybe even a novel to finish things off. I know he said he's really keen on trying out new formats now his eyesight is improving. Maybe a sense8 prose novel would be a relatively safe first novel? Although I do suspect the actors lent a lot of weight to the dialogue.

Trying to get an idea of numbers though isn't promising. The campaign that has half a million signatures adds up to $4 million dollars a month from a standard subscription. So for 12 episodes that's 27 months of subscription just to cover a season (Season 1 alone cost $108 million dollars). Obviously there may be more viewers than those who signed a petition (I didn't - and just stuck to asking for season 3 on my account and possibly going on hiatus with my subscription). I imagine even if only 1 in 10 people who want the show back signed the petition it still wouldn't be enough to justify the show costing as much as it does. Especially when a subscription needs to cover all their programming costs.

I'm still gutted the show has been cancelled especially due to the lack of resolution but I can understand how Netflix isn't a charity. Bringing back arrested development probably wasn't that expensive and they could justify the number of subscribers it brought in (even if it was just for a month). I read Netflix hasn't had it's projected growth this quarter so cancelling the underperforming and expensive shows makes sense. But I do wish this had been an issue while the season was being filmed so they could have altered that ending. As Wert suggested it would have only required another 30 minutes and some rejigging of the finale to end on a more conclusive note.

I read Brian Glass' comments on how the show was dead. He seems a really decent guy and it sucks that he's been a lead in two SF shows with a lot of potential that have been canned too soon. SGU is potentially worse as it seems that show was cancelled more because of TV politics than what I have to assume was cost per viewer with Sense8. Niche shows (which our own thread suggests) that cost a fortune are not a good mix. Still, it was good of him to get involved and I really hope he sticks with SF and gets a successful show - it'd be a shame if he wound up in a safe hospital/legal drama but I wouldn't blame him if he did.

 

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The question of whether I'll watch season 2 or not, was definitively answered by its cancelation.

 

4 hours ago, red snow said:

Trying to get an idea of numbers though isn't promising. The campaign that has half a million signatures adds up to $4 million dollars a month from a standard subscription. So for 12 episodes that's 27 months of subscription just to cover a season (Season 1 alone cost $108 million dollars). Obviously there may be more viewers than those who signed a petition (I didn't - and just stuck to asking for season 3 on my account and possibly going on hiatus with my subscription). I imagine even if only 1 in 10 people who want the show back signed the petition it still wouldn't be enough to justify the show costing as much as it does. Especially when a subscription needs to cover all their programming costs.

But how many of the people who signed the petition actually watched the show?  The way twitter and facebook get going in their groupthink echo chambers leads to people caring about things that did not directly affect them.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that a significant amount of those signatures came from people that had never even heard of the show before its cancelation, let alone watched an episode. 

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I still feel really angry about this, and about how and when they cancelled it.  They must have known when they released season 2 that they would cancel.  The second season hadn't even been out a month by that time.  Not everyone binges shows.  So deciding to cancel less than a month after release really makes it look like it was a done deal months ago. Which then continues to make canceling on the first day of pride month a fucking asshole move.

 

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I really don't think the way that JMS gets credit for everything good about the show, and the Wachowski's get credited only with the issues is remotely fair. JMS has the overarching plot sure, that's his thing and he's apparently very good at it. I've tried to watch Babylon 5 twice and desperate being really stubborn I couldn't get past the second season the second time. He could not have made this show by himself. The heart and soul of the show, the way its steeped in the queer experience - that's as much the Wachowski's as the action pieces. I also don't think its remotely fair to decide speculation that they might have struggled with the schedule is the canon explanation and resent them in the future for that when that has the least supporting evidence to go on. That they may have been unwilling to compromise their artistic vision and accept a lower budget? Sure, you could decide that is it, but that they simply wanted to drop it? No.

I know this forum has a lot of JMS fans, and I'm not trying to slag him off. Just give them some credit as well. Their most successful movie was pretty clearly carrying a lot of thematic depth relating to their personal circumstances, and this was the first property they have worked on since then that has so much of that going on again.

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I'm not exactly favouring JMS - just that he has a history of running shows on a tighter budget and that he's more likely to continue the story than the Wachowskis unless they appoint others to do so. Like I said part of the problem seems that none of the creators are overly invested in the show at this stage. I'm having trouble trying to find any reactions from JMS or the wachowskis regarding the cancellation

9 hours ago, RedEyedGhost said:

The question of whether I'll watch season 2 or not, was definitively answered by its cancelation.

 

But how many of the people who signed the petition actually watched the show?  The way twitter and facebook get going in their groupthink echo chambers leads to people caring about things that did not directly affect them.  It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that a significant amount of those signatures came from people that had never even heard of the show before its cancelation, let alone watched an episode. 

Exactly - it just reinforces the point that the show was probably unsustainable with current viewers and costs. While I imagine a lot of people signing that petition don't watch the show or don't pay for it (a co-worker hasn't seen all of season 2 as he got busted for account sharing), that's probably mitigiated somewhat by those who watch the show, like it, but can't be bothered to sign the petition. My point was that even if there were double the amount of viewers as signed the petition, it still wouldn't appear to be a sustainable show.

7 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I still feel really angry about this, and about how and when they cancelled it.  They must have known when they released season 2 that they would cancel.  The second season hadn't even been out a month by that time.  Not everyone binges shows.  So deciding to cancel less than a month after release really makes it look like it was a done deal months ago. Which then continues to make canceling on the first day of pride month a fucking asshole move.

 

Is there a new key member of personnel at Netflix? That's often the cause of shows suddenly getting cancelled so they can free up money for their own projects?

I totally agree that the decision seems to have been made prior to seeing how successful season 2 would be. Brian Glass pointed out (from experience) that the fact everyone is hearing the season ends without resolution is now putting people off watching the show which cements the problem. It's why I'd urge anyone who hasn't watched season 2 to still do so. It's a pipe dream but imagine if people were to watch the show en masse in the next 4 months and it wound up one of the most watched shows on netflix in 2017 - I doubt it would remain cancelled then.

Really, the best thing people can do now to save the show is to strongly encourage their friends to actually watch it. Like Red Eyed Ghost suggested, if the people outraged by the cancellation in terms of LGBT representation actually watched the show (hell, they could leave it playing in another room if they just wanted to make the statement) then Netflix would listen. The problem is I find a high amount of resistance to getting people to try and watch the show. Part of it is losing faith in Wachowskis as a brand, the bad reviews for the first 6 episodes and generally finding it a concept hard to sell. It has too much SF for those who watch dramas and too much "slice of life" for those who like SF.

I wonder if there were any serious counter movements eg christian/mum groups cancelling subscriptions over the show specifically? It would seem odd they still have a netflix account given the amount of shows that could upset them but it was clear that some of these websites were quite active in spreading negativity about season 2. I recall when the only new info I was finding was from christian websites talking about how troubled season 2 was and how it was already under threat of cancellation.

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so JMS did tweet a few things regarding the show. Mainly the same "you are the biggest cluster" stuff that seems pretty common.

One interesting thing in a tweet of his was how they were planning on killing a sensate off in S2 (or maybe down the line) but couldn't bring themselves to pick one. Production felt it would have been a very interesting thing to explore. I totally agree, viewing death through the prism of a cluster would have been an interesting exploration of how losing someone is a bit like losing yourself. Although I also wouldn't have liked to have picked a single sense8 to die. Although the way the show ended it wasn't looking great for

Wolfgang

but TV sort of dictates it would have been another character who'd sacrifice themselves to save him.

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The question of whether I'll watch season 2 or not, was definitively answered by its cancelation.

I would strongly recommend it. I think the second season was superior to the first, much better-paced and it really got to grips with the central storyline.

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On 17/06/2017 at 9:16 PM, Werthead said:

I would strongly recommend it. I think the second season was superior to the first, much better-paced and it really got to grips with the central storyline.

It certainly didn't make you wait 5 episodes before you had an idea what was going on.

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2 hours ago, red snow said:

It certainly didn't make you wait 5 episodes before you had an idea what was going on.

I don't think Season one was paced too well, especially the first four episodes. However, I don't think there was a problem knowing what's going on (heh...) I think it was just a slow build as they established characters and we experienced their new existence as they did (which was much calmer than I would have reacted I have to say :P)

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JMS must feel confused now, for being so pessimistic and giving away so many plot points...

I'm glad I didn't read anything he said (part of me still believed...).

Edited by Pliskin

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