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Kalbear

Sense8: why...so...sensitive (spoilers)

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Wow, didn’t even realise they had started filming it never mind wrapped. Conflicting emotions rising up again...glad we get closure, sad such a great and inclusive show is coming to an end to our soon. Hoping thisnlast episode will give enough closure to fans without feeling rushed or forced or necessarily tying up every last story (because to do so would be detrimental in terms of character time and doing each plot justice.)

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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The good part of that, I suppose, is that we should get the episodes relatively quickly. I can't see them taking more than a few months for post, so I suspect we'll get the episode in maybe May?

Does sound like they're certain it'll be the end. I guess the porn channel rescue package wasn't appealing in the end.

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It's going to be bittersweet when we get the finale. I do hope they just give us a sense of resolution with the current story and don't try and fit in 3 seasons of material into 2 hours (JMS said there was a 5 year plan at the start). eg tell us what happens to Wolfgang - don't tell us about some upcoming war between sensates and humans or introduce all the additional things sensates could undoubtedly do as their pod grew older.

Sing along montage/orgy is probably a necessity too.

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Interestingly, Straczynski was not involved in writing the finale. I wonder why.

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11 hours ago, Werthead said:

Interestingly, Straczynski was not involved in writing the finale. I wonder why.

He probably wanted no part in abandoning his loose plan?

That and he's hopefully busy working on something new. With his improved eyesight I'm hoping he'd venture in a more active run on his own show. Hopefully having picked up some tricks from teh Wachowskis but still being able to produce a show on a reasonable budget.

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18 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

That's bittersweet.

Good they have Wolfgang featuring so prominently - guess they know that was a big part of the upset with the cancellation.

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Watched season 1 recently. Since it was the Wachowskis and had an intiguing premise I went in with high expectations for this. But it did not deliver on any front. I'd put this on par with Frontier for the worst Netflix shows actually. 

A show has to have either a good story or good characters, preferably a mix of both, but this show has neither. What this show is is just one long boring monologue. The characters don't have own goals or own ambitions, they are just papers for the writers to get their monologues out. Monologues about love and evolution that you have heard dozens of times before. And when you have a character watch over their city once it can bring something, when you do it 10 times it's getting repetitive and shows that something is lacking behind how the show is made. When out of ideas, just put in a montage where the characters are hearing the same song. 

The acting is melodramatic and wooden, the writing is bad and the potential is wasted. A permise which has a lot of potential amounts to no storytelling what so ever. 

Another thing is how black and white this show is. Characters are either wholly good or evil, and there's no grey scale what so ever. It's like 80's cliche characters walking around. And if one main character is in trouble, just wait, because it will solve itself by another senaste after some tedious build-up. There's no struggle here. 

Since The Wachowskis started strong but seems to be going downhill maybe it should have been expected. Matrix 1 is brilliant, and the trilogy on its whole is enjoyable and interesting. V For Vendetta is a great movie. Cloud Atlas is ok but have flaws. Jupiter Ascending is just a terrible movie. And this show seem to be following Jupiter Ascending. So The Wachowskis have either lost their touch, or they never had it to begin with as some people have been saying for long. I never really agreed with the argument that Matrix was just a rip-off from better ideas and movies, but maybe there's something to it. 

It's not often i quit shows but I don't know if season 2 is worth it. 

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Wow, you must have a heart of ice.

I mean... yeah, at least the black-white-morality, the melodrama and the somewhat preachy monologues are objectively true. But the (main) characters having no depth is decidedly untrue and the 'montages' you are loathing so much are a big part of why the show actually makes the best from its premise when it comes to stunning cinematography and sheer optimistic fun. It has a certain feel to it that just oozes optimism and restores your faith in mankind. That's why I love it so much.

But apparently you have already made up your mind that you hate it, so... I can only say that I'm sorry for you.

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5 hours ago, Toth said:

Wow, you must have a heart of ice.

I mean... yeah, at least the black-white-morality, the melodrama and the somewhat preachy monologues are objectively true. But the (main) characters having no depth is decidedly untrue and the 'montages' you are loathing so much are a big part of why the show actually makes the best from its premise when it comes to stunning cinematography and sheer optimistic fun. It has a certain feel to it that just oozes optimism and restores your faith in mankind. That's why I love it so much.

But apparently you have already made up your mind that you hate it, so... I can only say that I'm sorry for you.

Fair point. Since you considered my points I considered yours and I'll give it to you to an extent. I'd say that Sun and Wolfgang at least have some depth. Especially Sun. She was an interesting character and some interesting family dynamics. But it's the execution of this that makes it uninteresting for me any way. 

If you look at Lito for example. I liked him as a character in the beginning. A fun guy and they played a little with tropes about gays. But then we get into his arc. The way he reacts to Hernando leaving him is just forced and heavy-handed. The only reason they do it is to bring that to the next tevent, which is Lito going to the mob guy and fighting. But before that event we get two episodes where he cries in the bathtub and conveniently enough the gun he has is a fake. And it's weird that he plays it like he don't know it's a lighter. Especially since he's the only smoker of the three in the household. It's these things where the writers are shouting for depth but it just gets silly that makes the show not work. 

So Lito may have had depth but in a whole season nothing showed it for me. And characters like Will, Riley and Kala were just cardboard. Having a scene with a character sitting on a mountain does not amount to storytelling. If the reason she was there was logical in the story it could have been a good moment. But considering the events leading up which are just strange and heavy-handed it didn't amount to anything in her arc. 

I'm not gonna give an opinion on the other two characters though. Just that the way hacking is portrayed in this show is one of the most silly and ridiculous ways of portraying hacking in shows. 

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6 hours ago, JonArryn said:

But before that event we get two episodes where he cries in the bathtub and conveniently enough the gun he has is a fake. And it's weird that he plays it like he don't know it's a lighter. Especially since he's the only smoker of the three in the household. It's these things where the writers are shouting for depth but it just gets silly that makes the show not work. 

But... that was the point! He's a drama queen! That's his thing! Everytime something goes wrong for him he drowns in self-pity and blows every little thing out of proportion. Haven't you listened to the silly messages he left on Hernando's recorder in the same scene? He lost his slipper for crying out loud! XD This whole suicide scene was just him playing up the drama. If he'd truly thought he was killing himself, his unconsciousness surely would have called the other Sensates like in Riley's case later on. But since he was alone, it was clear that it was just more or less him playacting to reinforce how miserable he felt.

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7 hours ago, JonArryn said:

I'm not gonna give an opinion on the other two characters though. Just that the way hacking is portrayed in this show is one of the most silly and ridiculous ways of portraying hacking in shows. 

Really? The way hacking is portrayed in Sense8 doesn't differ from the way it is presented in almost every other show. But the way hacking is portrayed is almost irrelevant to the real point of the show, which, in all honesty, seems to be completely missed by you.

I wouldn't say that the show is black and white. We have seen the other side of almost every adversary. For example, in season 2, we see that Nomi's family is not like some pack of big bad homophobic wolves. Wolfgang is supposed to be the modern antihero (a la Walter White, Don Draper, Gregory House etc.). True, we are supposed to feel for these characters and to sympathize with them, but it is not like we are presented with 8 saints who are above reproach. They are all people who we can identify with, to greater or lesser degree. Perhaps they would not be friends, but there is something that connects them. It is a weird, colorful family with all the individual baggage they have all brought to their cluster.

In my opinion, this show was a breath of fresh air on the TV scene. It is sorely missed. And the fact that the show' cancellation caused such an uproar speaks a lot about its impact. But, then again, it's all in the eye of beholder. 

 

Edited by Risto

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

Really? The way hacking is portrayed in Sense8 doesn't differ from the way it is presented in almost every other show. But the way hacking is portrayed is almost irrelevant to the real point of the show, which, in all honesty, seems to be completely missed by you.

I wouldn't say that the show is black and white. We have seen the other side of almost every adversary. For example, in season 2, we see that Nomi's family is not like some pack of big bad homophobic wolves. Wolfgang is supposed to be the modern antihero (a la Walter White, Don Draper, Gregory House etc.). True, we are supposed to feel for these characters and to sympathize with them, but it is not like we are presented with 8 saints who are above reproach. They are all people who we can identify with, to greater or lesser degree. Perhaps they would not be friends, but there is something that connects them. It is a weird, colorful family with all the individual baggage they have all brought to their cluster.

In my opinion, this show was a breath of fresh air on the TV scene. It is sorely missed. And the fact that the show' cancellation caused such an uproar speaks a lot about its impact. But, then again, it's all in the eye of beholder. 

 

Indeed. It is in the eye of the beholder. And I've noticed that this show has divided a lot of watchers. Since I don't think it delivered on what some people have made it out to be. Maybe too high expectations going in. 

And regarding hacking. Just compare this with Mr. Robot. I've seen Mr. Robot's first two seasons, and while it's not a favorite show in any way, the way they portray hacking there and in Sense8 is like two different worlds. And it actually does matter. Why? Because if you choose to drive plot action because one of your characters has hacking skills you need to make it realistic within the world. Will's whole mission in S1 finale is hinging on if the hacking is working or not. To have it simply as a macguffin to move the plot to where you be is actually a writer sin. Then that character is a hacker because the writers need it. It's kinda like saying that a show is about a cop but your character can't handle guns and write police reports that are three sentences long. So that's why that element doesn't work. 

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10 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Indeed. It is in the eye of the beholder. And I've noticed that this show has divided a lot of watchers. Since I don't think it delivered on what some people have made it out to be. Maybe too high expectations going in. 

Well, I know quite a lot of movie goers and critics who were amazed by Sense8, so I feel it is not about high expectations of someone, it is just that the show didn't speak to you as it spoke to many of us. 

14 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

And regarding hacking. Just compare this with Mr. Robot. I've seen Mr. Robot's first two seasons, and while it's not a favorite show in any way, the way they portray hacking there and in Sense8 is like two different worlds. And it actually does matter. Why? Because if you choose to drive plot action because one of your characters has hacking skills you need to make it realistic within the world. Will's whole mission in S1 finale is hinging on if the hacking is working or not. To have it simply as a macguffin to move the plot to where you be is actually a writer sin. Then that character is a hacker because the writers need it. It's kinda like saying that a show is about a cop but your character can't handle guns and write police reports that are three sentences long. So that's why that element doesn't work. 

But, hacking in Mr Robot is the MAIN element, the one you can't have the show. In Sense8, it is moving a plot, but is not essential element as it is in Mr Robot. Mr Robot's hacking can be compared with medicine in Greys Anatomy, law in The Good Wife etc. 

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8 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, I know quite a lot of movie goers and critics who were amazed by Sense8, so I feel it is not about high expectations of someone, it is just that the show didn't speak to you as it spoke to many of us. 

But, hacking in Mr Robot is the MAIN element, the one you can't have the show. In Sense8, it is moving a plot, but is not essential element as it is in Mr Robot. Mr Robot's hacking can be compared with medicine in Greys Anatomy, law in The Good Wife etc. 

I guess if I was watching Sense8 just for the quality of the hacking then I'd be disappointed.

The weird thing with Jonarryn's comments is that I can sort of see why they'd feel that way if they weren't digging the show and it's sensate mechanics. It is very cheesy and the characters can feel straight out of a cliched soap opera at times. But for me, it just works and the feel-good heart of the show is what makes me like it so much. It's weird because I usually do prefer the shades of grey to black and white but again, it works for me in this show. And it's not that all the sensates are perfect. Funnily enough Kala is the character i find the most morally dubious with the entering into a marriage she doesn't want and still cheating on him with Wolfgang. All while seeming confused and innocent. Even Riley, who i find quite dull has a pretty good reason for being the way she is.

I can't see any good reason why someone who disliked season 1 as much as jonarryn appears to would even consider sitting through another season though. It's more of the same - do yourself a favour, Jonarryn, and find a better use of 12 hours.

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8 hours ago, red snow said:

I guess if I was watching Sense8 just for the quality of the hacking then I'd be disappointed.

The weird thing with Jonarryn's comments is that I can sort of see why they'd feel that way if they weren't digging the show and it's sensate mechanics. It is very cheesy and the characters can feel straight out of a cliched soap opera at times. But for me, it just works and the feel-good heart of the show is what makes me like it so much. It's weird because I usually do prefer the shades of grey to black and white but again, it works for me in this show. And it's not that all the sensates are perfect. Funnily enough Kala is the character i find the most morally dubious with the entering into a marriage she doesn't want and still cheating on him with Wolfgang. All while seeming confused and innocent. Even Riley, who i find quite dull has a pretty good reason for being the way she is.

I can't see any good reason why someone who disliked season 1 as much as jonarryn appears to would even consider sitting through another season though. It's more of the same - do yourself a favour, Jonarryn, and find a better use of 12 hours.

The hacking might not be important, I agree on that. It was just one small example of where I think they were pretty lazy. They could have made the hacking better but seem to not care. It's the same thng with Woldfgang single-handedly taking out a whole criminal enterprise. With one handgun he goes into a room and takes out 4 guys who has semi automatic rifles and shotguns. Sure, you might not care, but that whole scenario is unplausible. And Riley's boyfriend driving like a maniac in the middle of a blizzard with a pregnant girlfriend. I mean, that thing is so stupid from a logic viewpoint. It's only there to get to the car crash, but in a unrealistic way. No boyfriend in a sane mind would drive 140 up a mountain with a girlfriend when the way is full of ice. I don't know. Even if I liked all the characters and stories I would still critique those things.

Sometimes the devil is in the details. Imagine if Kubrick told his crew on Barry Lyndon that it doesn't matter how they stand in the war scene because the movie is really about Barry Lyndon rise and fall. Sometimes the small things are important too. 

Edited by JonArryn

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Everyone has their breaking point with these types of thing. For me as long as the entertainment outweighs the stupidity I'm fine with it. We all have different guages with regards to those two things. Prison break and the flash are examples of shows where the ratio went out the window for me and I gave up.

GOT had a ton of stupidity and fake outs this season but just managing to win out in entertainment value for me.

Mr robot (season 2) is almost the inverse for me. Excellent on the details but wavering on the entertainment. Luckily I've heard season 3 is back on form so will binge it when done.

I still think you should give up on season 2 though as it continues with all the flaws you are listing and adds more.

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Finale lands on June 8th. I will try and encourage friends to try the show prior to this in the hope widespread buzz may yet save the show.

This finale is going to be bittersweet but at least we'll get some resolution. Maybe there's slim hope if they altered the format in a way that kept costs down? It seems that's the case for the finale as the cast all appear to be in one location. Not sure the show would work if that was the case all the time though.

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2 hours ago, red snow said:

Finale lands on June 8th. I will try and encourage friends to try the show prior to this in the hope widespread buzz may yet save the show.

This finale is going to be bittersweet but at least we'll get some resolution. Maybe there's slim hope if they altered the format in a way that kept costs down? It seems that's the case for the finale as the cast all appear to be in one location. Not sure the show would work if that was the case all the time though.

I just got a friend of mine to start S1, she is 3 episodes in and loves it. Will see how she likes S2.

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