Mance Rayder and Petyr Baelish are allies

[SeaWitch]

2 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Mainly because who would want to marry him? His mind, his devilish good looks? Lord of Westeros carry nothing for such things. He has a shit castle and shit lands, thus is a shit marriage proposal.  Granted he has now lots of money, and with Harrenhal a big ass castle and vast tracts of land. Not to being the LP of the Riverlands. Basically the most desirable bachelor in Westeros now. The irony.

Fun fact I think he has been getting Lysa to poison herself with Sweetsleep for awhile now. I don't think he planned the whole kissing in the snow seen for Lysa. (Some do but who do they think he is Bloodraven?) He needed her for a couple more years preferably. 

Also would explain Sweetrobins insane resistance to Sweetsleep, since he keeps breastfeeding for so long. Granted the poison might not work like that but this is a fantasy series with Ice zombies and fire dragons.

Actually, depending on what poison used, yes, it would account for a great deal of physical issues for both parties.  Lysa had health problems from that late induced abortion, if she was taking anything to dull pain, it would become a vicious cycle. 

Petyr was being pursued for someone's daughter in earlier books, some people thought he was a prospect.  I think he was keeping Lysa on a string, and using her as an excuse not to get tied down.  I'm not sure how prepared he was to go through with things. (AG's face when the Septon as ushered in was perfection.). He needed her favour to start the climb, but we've seen she's batshit jealous insane.  I absolutely think any woman who he got involved with, or who expressed too much interest in him near Lysa, could have a horrible accident. And he knows this. Kissing Sansa was unprecedented levels of stupid considering where they were, but of a part with her revolting role as pure little maiden/nostalgia object.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

33 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

 

 

 

Mainly because who would want to marry him? His mind, his devilish good looks? Lord of Westeros carry nothing for such things. He has a shit castle and shit lands, thus is a shit marriage proposal.  Granted he has now lots of money, and with Harrenhal a big ass castle and vast tracts of land. Not to being the LP of the Riverlands. Basically the most desirable bachelor in Westeros now. The irony.

Fun fact I think he has been getting Lysa to poison herself with Sweetsleep for awhile now. I don't think he planned the whole kissing in the snow seen for Lysa. (Some do but who do they think he is Bloodraven?) He needed her for a couple more years preferably. 

Also would explain Sweetrobins insane resistance to Sweetsleep, since he keeps breastfeeding for so long. Granted the poison might not work like that but this is a fantasy series with Ice zombies and fire dragons.

OMG I love that thought . I always thought pushing Lysa out the moon door was one of at least a few examples of GRRM obfuscating master plans with coincidences. Like: I think Tywin was poisoned but Tyrion happened to kill him first. And I think Lancel was supposed to be the one to implicate Cersei in her crimes but she ends up doing herself in.

But I never actually thought about the method LF could have used long term to kill Lysa in his original plan. And he even mentioned he thought Cersei would take years to screw everything up so badly.

[Lord Wraith]

21 minutes ago, SeaWitch said:

Actually, depending on what poison used, yes, it would account for a great deal of physical issues for both parties.  Lysa had health problems from that late induced abortion, if she was taking anything to dull pain, it would become a vicious cycle. 

Petyr was being pursued for someone's daughter in earlier books, some people thought he was a prospect.  I think he was keeping Lysa on a string, and using her as an excuse not to get tied down.  I'm not sure how prepared he was to go through with things. (AG's face when the Septon as ushered in was perfection.). He needed her favour to start the climb, but we've seen she's batshit jealous insane.  I absolutely think any woman who he got involved with, or who expressed too much interest in him near Lysa, could have a horrible accident. And he knows this. Kissing Sansa was unprecedented levels of stupid considering where they were, but of a part with her revolting role as pure little maiden/nostalgia object.

Indeed. I am sure whatever abortifact Hoster used wasn't gentle. I am frankly amazed she didn't die or could have more kids. Not to mention her apparent problem with sleeping.

Oh yes poor Lolly's Stokeworth and her annoying mother. I mean at that point, he was rich and master of coin. Lolly's is a halfwit and later was raped so Bronn eventually ended up with her. Also I think Bronn is a Baelish agent, food for thought.

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

OMG I love that thought . I always thought pushing Lysa out the moon door was one of at least a few examples of GRRM obfuscating master plans with coincidences. Like: I think Tywin was poisoned but Tyrion happened to kill him first. And I think Lancel was supposed to be the one to implicate Cersei in her crimes but she ends up doing herself in.

But I never actually thought about the method LF could have used long term to kill Lysa in his original plan. And he even mentioned he thought Cersei would take years to screw everything up so badly.

I have just done some further theorizing from one of Cantuse's theories.

Also if you reread Cat's early chapters at the Eyrie Lysa is having trouble sleeping. Later Robin and Sansa do as well. PJ think the spirits of the COTF are in the Weirwood throne. So check at out if you have a mind to.

Also if Oberyn wasn't poisoning Tywin I will eat my nonexistent Internet hat. No to mention was the poison at the Purple Wedding in the pie or wine. Who was the target, Tyrion or Joff. Who was behind it etc.

[SeaWitch]

29 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed. I am sure whatever abortifact Hoster used wasn't gentle. I am frankly amazed she didn't die or could have more kids. Not to mention her apparent problem with sleeping.

Oh yes poor Lolly's Stokeworth and her annoying mother. I mean at that point, he was rich and master of coin. Lolly's is a halfwit and later was raped so Bronn eventually ended up with her. Also I think Bronn is a Baelish agent, food for thought.

I have just done some further theorizing from one of Cantuse's theories.

Also if you reread Cat's early chapters at the Eyrie Lysa is having trouble sleeping. Later Robin and Sansa do as well. PJ think the spirits of the COTF are in the Weirwood throne. So check at out if you have a mind to.

Also if Oberyn wasn't poisoning Tywin I will eat my nonexistent Internet hat. No to mention was the poison at the Purple Wedding in the pie or wine. Who was the target, Tyrion or Joff. Who was behind it etc.

Tansy and pennyroyal? 'Moon tea' is bloody terrifying.  Most of those ingredients are indeed natural abortficants, dangerous at best and easily lethal in the wrong dosage.  There's a lot of fantasy hand-waving involved to make it a semi-common thing for women to use, because the reality would be gambling with your health every time, risking death or infertility. Lysa can't be more than thirty two at most (older than Petyr, two years younger than Cat who is the same age or younger than Ned...) so, there were ten years of miscarriages and stillbirths taking a toll on her before Robin - and I'm damn sure she didn't let Jon near her during or after the pregnancy.  She'd be taking something for pain. (Also, I think Robin is Jon Arryn's, because he'd be watching his wayward bride carefully and he was desperate for issue.)

...I am not getting into another rehash of the Purple Poison Punch-up until I've read the book properly myself.  Hell, maybe there was poison in both things, and we had another collision of plotting?

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I have just done some further theorizing from one of Cantuse's theories.

Also if you reread Cat's early chapters at the Eyrie Lysa is having trouble sleeping. Later Robin and Sansa do as well. PJ think the spirits of the COTF are in the Weirwood throne. So check at out if you have a mind to.

Also if Oberyn wasn't poisoning Tywin I will eat my nonexistent Internet hat. No to mention was the poison at the Purple Wedding in the pie or wine. Who was the target, Tyrion or Joff. Who was behind it etc.

Yes, I am quite familiar with everything PJ has done. And I have read some of Cantuse's stuff but still need to get around to the rest at some point.

Seconded! I will also eat my nonexistent internet hat if Oberyn wasn't poisoning Tywin. And I think Tyrion was the target and it was in the pie, but that's a lot more ambiguous  

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, SeaWitch said:

Tansy and pennyroyal? 'Moon tea' is bloody terrifying.  Most of those ingredients are indeed natural abortficants, dangerous at best and easily lethal in the wrong dosage.  There's a lot of fantasy hand-waving involved to make it a semi-common thing for women to use, because the reality would be gambling with your health every time, risking death or infertility. Lysa can't be more than thirty two at most (older than Petyr, two years younger than Cat who is the same age or younger than Ned...) so, there were ten years of miscarriages and stillbirths taking a toll on her before Robin - and I'm damn sure she didn't let Jon near her during or after the pregnancy.  She'd be taking something for pain. (Also, I think Robin is Jon Arryn's, because he'd be watching his wayward bride carefully and he was desperate for issue.)

...I am not getting into another rehash of the Purple Poison Punch-up until I've read the book properly myself.  Hell, maybe there was poison in both things, and we had another collision of plotting?

 

I agree that Robin is Jon's but I can see the arguement that he is Baelish's. Get reading I would hate to accidental spoil something.

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, I am quite familiar with everything PJ has done. And I have read some of Cantuse's stuff but still need to get around to the rest at some point.

Seconded! I will also eat my nonexistent internet hat if Oberyn wasn't poisoning Tywin. And I think Tyrion was the target and it was in the pie, but that's a lot more ambiguous  

Indeed.

Back on topic. I have always wondered about Val and Dalla, possible connections to the Moon Singers. Not sure when if Mance was in Braavos to meet Baelish. I just don't how the logistics of how that is possible.

[SeaWitch]

I've said elsewhere that I think Val is a reflection of Veleda, the seeress to Mance's Civilis.  She's the White Queen to Melisandre's Red.

The Wildling whatever is a response to the White Walkers, I think an entirely separate issue from the Southron shenanigans.

Most of ASoIaF seems to come from the violent collisions of other's people schemes.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 5/23/2017 at 5:49 AM, Lord Wraith said:

 

Fun fact I think he has been getting Lysa to poison herself with Sweetsleep for awhile now. I don't think he planned the whole kissing in the snow seen for Lysa. (Some do but who do they think he is Bloodraven?) He needed her for a couple more years preferably. 

Also would explain Sweetrobins insane resistance to Sweetsleep, since he keeps breastfeeding for so long. Granted the poison might not work like that but this is a fantasy series with Ice zombies and fire dragons.

That is a fun fact, and one I agree with.

However, recently I have been wondering if Lysa was not poisoning herself, maybe unknowingly, with the makeup and clothes she wears. I came across an interesting article a few weeks ago about the poison in makeup and women's dresses a long time ago. Some women would literally spontaneously ignite because of the toxins, and the would go "mad" from the poisons that leached into their systems... their humors would be off.

It was called the "Arsenic waltz" https://hyperallergic.com/133571/fatal-victorian-fashion-and-the-allure-of-the-poison-garment/

And green dye in history was known to be a killer, as was makeup in general with the copious uses of lead, arsenic, and other poisons and irritants. Lommy Greenhands was a dyer's apprentice.

• AGOT/Dany VI:  Across the aisle, a fat cloth trader from Yi Ti was haggling with a Pentoshi over the price of some green dye, the monkey tail on his hat swaying back and forth as he shook his head.

And then a recent new start of a reread reminded me how much the scene, verbiage, and process Cat has to take to get up to the Eyrie parallels the wall and the Black Gate. The Eryie, Weirwood throne, and Lysa all have the visuals of a twisted, dead "Bloodraven" cavern. So much information, it could be a thread of it's own.

When we meet Lysa, she is caked in makeup, and we know that Sansa loves lemon cakes, so there could be a connection. Plus, the Whent blood also helps Poison is a "women's work", but then again, so is wearing makeup (yes, in general).

• A Game of Thrones- Cat VI- ... in truth; five cruel years, for Lysa. They had taken their toll. Her sister was two years the younger, yet she looked older now. Shorter than Catelyn, Lysa had grown thick of body, pale and puffy of face. She had the blue eyes of the Tullys, but hers were pale and watery, never still. Her small mouth had turned petulant. As Catelyn held her, she remembered the slender, high-breasted girl who'd waited beside her that day in the sept at Riverrun.
  • "Quiet!" Lysa snapped at her. "You're scaring the boy." Little Robert took a quick peek over his shoulder at Catelyn and began to tremble. His doll fell to the rushes, and he pressed himself against his mother. "Don't be afraid, my sweet baby," Lysa whispered. "Mother's here, nothing will hurt you." She opened her robe and drew out a pale, heavy breast, tipped with red. The boy grabbed for it eagerly, buried his face against her chest, and began to suck. Lysa stroked his hair.
• A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI-    "I will need hot water for my bath, please," she told them, "and perfume, and some powder to hide this bruise." The right side of her face was swollen and beginning to ache, but she knew Joffrey would want her to be beautiful.
• A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI-      "You may come kiss my cheek, Alayne." Dutifully she approached and knelt beside the bed. Her aunt was drenched in sweet scent, though under that was a sour milky smell. Her cheek tasted of paint and powder.
• A Storm of Swords- Sansa VII- Amidst so much white marble even the sunlight looked chilly, somehow . . . though not half so chilly as her aunt. Lady Lysa had dressed in a gown of cream-colored velvet and a necklace of sapphires and moon-stones. Her auburn hair had been done up in a thick braid, and fell across one shoulder. She sat in the high seat watching her niece approach, her face red and puffy beneath the paint and powder. On the wall behind her hung a huge banner, the moon-and-falcon of House Arryn in cream and blue.

Basically, Sansa needs to get the F out of the Eyrie, and the F out of Auntie Crazy's makeup and dresses and lemoncakes. And hmmm, interesting, Creepyfinger tells Alyane to avoid the cream:

• Alayne looked down at her dress, the deep blue and rich dark red of Riverrun. "Is it too—"

"It is too Tully. The Lords Declarant will not be pleased by the sight of my bastard daughter prancing about in my dead wife's clothes. Choose something else. Need I remind you to avoid sky blue and cream?"

 

Anyway, that is all the off-topic I am doing for now. Sorry to the OP

[SeaWitch]

...I have an interest in poisons for what you might call professional purposes(*), so yes, playing with Aunt Lysa's make-up box could be very bad.

I'm absolutely on board with the idea that she's been dosing SR unwittingly for years with whatever she's putting in her own system, equally unknowingly or otherwise.  The kid is, as someone put it elsewhere, the equivalent of a crack baby.

(*) crime writer, not serial killer

 

edit: though I think the cream he mentions there is the colour. He's telling her not to dress in Tully or Arryn colours.  

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

13 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Preston's latest show

Just don't.

13 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

I finished the show and a thought came to me.  What if Mance and Petyr are working together?  They made an agreement before the start of the story to work together to collapse the government in Westeros.  Mance and his freefolk gets the North and Littlefinger gets everything below the Neck.

OK, gimme some material from the books at least hinting at their cooperation. Is Littlefinger aware of the existence of Mance Rayder? Is Mance Rayder aware of the existence of Littlefinger? Have they ever met? When and where?

For starters.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Joff's reason is quite lame.  To impress his father!  I don't know about the link between Mance and Lf, but I can see the King Beyond the Wall doing something like this.  It seems to me this guy can come and go anywhere he pleases.  If he sneaked into the castle who is to say that he didn't have an accomplice with him.  A patsy who was expected to fail his mission.  Mance  stole the dagger on purpose to create confusion and suspicion then gave it to his lackwit accomplice.  Always observant and taking mental notes, Mance knew the man would fail. 

Time and time again, suspicion leads to paranoid behavior which lead to ruin.  Mance would know this and use this psychological weapon against the Starks.  It worked on Catelyn.  Upon reaching K/L, either Lf is an opportunists who takes advantage and tells his lie to spread his own brand of chaos or Lf is in cahoots with Mance.  One thing we can be certain, these men had their spies in Winterfell and both are capable of sending an assassin to kill Bran. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

32 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Joff's reason is quite lame.  To impress his father!  I don't know about the link between Mance and Lf, but I can see the King Beyond the Wall doing something like this.  It seems to me this guy can come and go anywhere he pleases.  If he sneaked into the castle who is to say that he didn't have an accomplice with him.  A patsy who was expected to fail his mission.  Mance  stole the dagger on purpose to create confusion and suspicion then gave it to his lackwit accomplice.  Always observant and taking mental notes, Mance knew the man would fail. 

Time and time again, suspicion leads to paranoid behavior which lead to ruin.  Mance would know this and use this psychological weapon against the Starks.  It worked on Catelyn.  Upon reaching K/L, either Lf is an opportunists who takes advantage and tells his lie to spread his own brand of chaos or Lf is in cahoots with Mance.  One thing we can be certain, these men had their spies in Winterfell and both are capable of sending an assassin to kill Bran. 

Agreed, Jaime's deduction around Joff's motive is nonsense. Does Jaime think that, had Bran died, Joff would have bragged to Robert about it? That seems unlikely, but how else was Joff supposed to get a pat on the head?

I disagree, however, that Mance could have possibly known the man would fail. His job was to kill a child in a coma. The only thing that stopped him ultimately was Summer, and I doubt Mance could have predicted Summer would save the day.

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I agree that Robin is Jon's but I can see the arguement that he is Baelish's. Get reading I would hate to accidental spoil something.

Indeed.

Back on topic. I have always wondered about Val and Dalla, possible connections to the Moon Singers. Not sure when if Mance was in Braavos to meet Baelish. I just don't how the logistics of how that is possible.

Well, considering that Mance was rather easily able to travel south and infiltrate the feast at WF, it wouldn't surprise me if he was able to go south, take a ship to Braavos, meet up with LF, and travel back at some point. And LF could have certainly gone to Braavos to meet him. The real logistical question is, how would this meeting be arranged in the first place? It's not like you can send a raven to Mance.

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well, considering that Mance was rather easily able to travel south and infiltrate the feast at WF, it wouldn't surprise me if he was able to go south, take a ship to Braavos, meet up with LF, and travel back at some point. And LF could have certainly gone to Braavos to meet him. The real logistical question is, how would this meeting be arranged in the first place? It's not like you can send a raven to Mance.

Indeed sounds like you would need a glass candle to solve that problem. Problem is neither of them should have access to one.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

22 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed sounds like you would need a glass candle to solve that problem. Problem is neither of them should have access to one.

Or, alternatively and more tinfoily, you could have a third party set up the meeting, like someone with a glass candle or BR himself.

[Lord Wraith]

5 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Or, alternatively and more tinfoily, you could have a third party set up the meeting, like someone with a glass candle or BR himself.

Doran Martell mayhaps?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Doran Martell mayhaps?

Well I can't think of any evidence for it. But I also can't think of any good reason off the top of my head why Doran wouldn't be motivated to do this. We haven't actually seen everything play out yet, but it is certainly possible that the actions of LF and Mance will play perfectly into Doran's plans. Mayhaps the trio made an arrangement to split the kingdom into 3 parts? They are 3 of the best players of the game, so I wouldn't put it past them to make such a bold plan. And Oberyn could have gone to the in person meeting. I have to think about this some more now...

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well I can't think of any evidence for it. But I also can't think of any good reason off the top of my head why Doran wouldn't be motivated to do this. We haven't actually seen everything play out yet, but it is certainly possible that the actions of LF and Mance will play perfectly into Doran's plans. Mayhaps the trio made an arrangement to split the kingdom into 3 parts? They are 3 of the best players of the game, so I wouldn't put it past them to make such a bold plan. And Oberyn could have gone to the in person meeting. I have to think about this some more now...

If you can find the link between Baelish and Mance I'm all ears. Well I have the notion that Baelish and Doran may be in cahoots.Parallels, hints in the books but certainly nothing conclusive other than the fact they seem to be running the same playbook. Let everyone else kill each other off then make your move.

Now if Mance is actually Arthur Dayne I could see this making a scary lot of sense.

[Makk]

18 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Now if Mance is actually Arthur Dayne I could see this making a scary lot of sense.

If Mance is Arthur Dayne, the entire series starts making a lot less sense imo.

[Lord Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Makk said:

If Mance is Arthur Dayne, the entire series starts making a lot less sense imo.

He probably isn't. Still Ned's fever dream is far from conclusive, and there are plenty of hints in the text to point at it. Nothing conclusive but one of those fun things to think about.

Why does it make less sense in your opinion?

[Makk]

6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

He probably isn't. Still Ned's fever dream is far from conclusive, and there are plenty of hints in the text to point at it. Nothing conclusive but one of those fun things to think about.

Why does it make less sense in your opinion?

That probably came across as a bit snarky, sorry.

But I don't believe there is any merit to the argument. The only real hint would be that he is potentially a very good swordsman with a greatsword. Against that you have to deal with all the history about Mance and claim it is fake. Why would Ned say he may have to deal to the king beyond the wall if he knew he was Arthur Dayne? Why would the Targaryen Loyalists at the wall like Alliser Thorne or Jeremy Rykar not know him? The ages don't really seem to fit well either.

If, and I don't really think this is likely either, Arthur survived the Tower of Joy, I think Quorin Halfhand would be a better fit.