The Undying of Qarth are alive!

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Earlier today I posted the final part of my grand theory on the COTF, and buried in the post is an explanation of the HOTU. Since the grand theory is super long and does not focus on the HOTU, I made this separate thread just to discuss it. I'll try to give some brief context. Long story short, I theorized a few months back that every weirwood has a living greenseer hooked into its root system, Bloodraven-style, and the weirwood sap and leaves look like blood because it is actually blood. Anyways, here is the HOTU section of my grand theory, copy and pasted here:

What in the heck happened in the HOTU? I’ll try to explain. First, I would like to point out that when Bran ate weirwood paste, he was likely consuming greenseer blood, because (as I pointed out in Part 1 of this theory) the greenseers are all alive and hooked up to the weirnet, and the red sap and red leaves are the result of red blood being pumped through the trees like giant sci-fi lungs. I am going to make yet another crazy but related claim: shade of the evening is made from the blood of the Undying of Qarth, and the Undying themselves are hooked up to their grove of trees in a manner similar to BR and the other greenseers with the weirnet. “Hold on a minute,” I hear you thinking. Didn’t we see the Undying? And didn’t Drogon burn them all alive? Did we really? Did Drogon really kill them? Spoiler: No.

So what actually happened? Well first we get a description of the HOTU. It is a grey and ancient ruin, long and low, without towers or windows, coiling like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of shade of the evening. I am betting that the Undying have basically done in Qarth, above ground, what BR and the other COTF greenseers have historically done below ground, and with a different species of tree. The HOTU itself is windowless. You don’t make a building windowless on purpose unless you want it to be dark. And since being in darkness is the best thing for telepaths, what is inside the HOTU is likely a bunch telepaths (the Undying) hooked up to the root system of the grove of trees BR-style, permanently residing in darkness and using the warlocks as servants, similar to how the Old Gods use COTF as servants. And I wouldn’t be surprised if the Undying consulted the COTF for this knowledge, because the person who actually serves Dany the shade of the evening is “the smallest dwarf Dany had ever seen” and is possibly part COTF.

So did Dany actually kill the Undying or not? I don’t think she did. Primarily, I think Dany was still in full-on hallucination/telepathic connection mode at least until she made it outside, back into the light. Because Dany, after ostensibly killing the Undying, thinks that there is no door out of the passageway in the HOTU, and the floor “seemed to move slowly under her feet, writhing as if to trip her”. And then “suddenly the door was there ahead of her”. These are still false visions, illusions being put in her head. Now you may be thinking, wasn’t she on drugs? And I would argue, not really, I don’t think shade of the evening is hallucinogenic or anything like that. It simply opens up the mind to your own memories and to telepathic connections, which if true means that the illusion of “a floor that seemed to move slowly under her feet” must have still been part of the visions sent by the Undying themselves. And the entire audience chamber scene with the floating heart was just a false vision. And when Dany gets slapped in the head by Drogon and the visions are “ripped away”, she was still experiencing the original vision.

So it seems that what actually happened is basically 1) Dany drank the blood of the Undying, which facilitated a strong telepathic connection between herself and the Undying. 2) Dany, after having pre-conceived notions put into her head by Pyat Pree about what to expect inside, walked into a windowless pitch dark building with the all the Undying around her. 3) The Undying sent her a bunch of visions and then scared the shit out of her and forced her to “escape”. 4) A small amount of smoke seeping through the roof paired with the (planned and totally fake) reaction of Pyat Pree fully convinces Dany the Undying have been defeated.

Because really, why bother sending Dany all those visions if you are just going to absorb her into your telepath collective and/or kill her? It seems pointless. And why would the Undying leave themselves so vulnerable to immediate destruction? You would think that with so many years of wisdom they might take more precautions around a dragon, like maybe have some sort of fire extinguisher system at the ready. And most importantly to my Master Plan theory, the HOTU had a huge effect on Dany’s actions, so it makes a lot more sense if it was all a big trick and the Undying are in cahoots with the Old Gods, or are themselves another pawn. The explanation we are provided with at surface level, that the Undying were killed super easily and wasted their time showing Dany otherwise-irrelevant visions, is too full of holes for me to believe.

[Amris]

This is an interesting theory and a good read. Congratulations!

You are of course right that there are many parallels between the Greenseers and their weirwood trees and the Undying and their inverted weirwood trees. I don't want to recount them all here because the topic has already been discussed.

It is clear that the Undying have some connection to their inverted weirwood trees. Through their shade of evening (derived from those trees) at the very least. That much you surely are right about. Whether they really are 'hooked up' to the tree roots like greenseers I don't know. In the end it does not really matter I think. What matters is that they somewhat are connected to their trees (in whatever way).

Where I don't think you are on the right track is the nature of the visions Dany gets:

My reasoning is that you reduce the Undying visions Dany has to something telepathic and hallucinogenic.

However I think we both agree that the visions are more than that. Even if we assume that the visions Dany gets have been sent to her telepathically by the Undying some of the visions show specific future events. The Red Wedding that has not happened at that point yet for instance. And the sacking of Astapor which also has not happened yet.

That means that there is a supernatural or mystical element at play here in addition to supposed telepathy and hallucination.

And that means that it seems questionable whether we can define the Undyings' motives solely by logic and a supposed desire on the Undyings' part to get Dany to do a certain thing in their interest.

Because since there is a mystical element there who knows if that mystical element is not working through the Undying (or the Greenseers) instead of the other way round? Causing the Undying to send visions in the mystical element's interest (and not necessarily the Undyings' interest?)

We don't know the nature of the mystical element or if it is able to want something at all. But we do know it exists. Because otherwise it would be impossible for anyone to have visions of future events. (Even the non-future part of the Undying visions are hard to explain without some sort of magic if you ask me. Because they are so cryptic yet clearly showing real happenings. But the future knowledge part definitely proves there is some kind of 'magic' or 'gods' or whatever one may want to call it at play. Thus the Undying are not necessarily free in their choice of what to show Dany or do to Dany. And that means your logic is not necessarily valid. (It does not mean your logic is invalid either of course.) But it means the motive of the Undying is still unclear and they may have perished in Drogon's fire after all after having been compelled by whatever the mysticism force is to deliver the prophecy they were supposed to deliver and served no further purpose.

As for Pyat Pree his reaction in addition to howling curses at Dany (which you explain as having been a preplanned act) was to draw a knife and dancing towards her. I suppose you would argue that he never intended to stab Dany and this was just more playacting. In that case I have to ask: why though? Howling curses is already a clear statement. If the sole purpose is to make Dany believe he is horrified by the fire a knife seems unnecessary. Especially since the knife gets him in real (and unnecessary) danger of getting killed by Dany's bodyguards and/or Drogon.

No, this does not seem like playacting on Pyat's part.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@Amris

Glad you liked it!  

You thought wrong.  I do not agree that the visions are "more than that". I assume you have not yet wasted 10 hours of your life reading my entire grand theory that posted the link to. Long story short, I don't think the "mythical element" you refer to exists. I think the weirnet has time travel powers and is responsible for sending visions of the future to people. So I think that either the weirnet sent those visions to the Undying, or the Undying have similar powers, or they are actually connected and the Undying are somehow "part" of the weirnet.

I will concede, however, that you may be correct about the Undying not being able to make their own free choices. They may be totally at the mercy of the weirnet. Similarly, I think Bloodraven is not capable of making free choices and is totally a slave to the weirnet. And yes, it is possible that the Undying actually did die, having served their purpose. The main reason I think they are alive is that the floor seemed to move beneath Dany's feet as she tried to escape, which means she is still experiencing a vision of some sort, and that alone makes me doubt the whole scene. And was that audience chamber supposed to be real while all the other rooms were totally fake? The Undying being hooked up to the trees would make a little more sense than them sitting at a table forever, and it would also help explain why they never leave the HOTU.

The knife is actually what made me suspicious that Pyat's reaction is feigned. Why did he have a knife at the ready? Why did he attack Dany at all? A small amount of smoke hardly seems confirmation that the Undying have all just been burned. Was he not expecting her to come out at all? In that case, why was he waiting outside the door? And yeah, the knife puts him in arguably unnecessary danger, but it is a pretty safe assumption that if there is a bodyguard with a whip a few feet away when he attacks Dany, that whip is going to be the weapon used to immediately disarm him, and whips are generally not too dangerous.

[Roswell]

Those visions were meant to distract Dany and lure her further into the house.  The purpose?  To hold her under their spell.  I also believe the weirwood paste and the shade of the evening accomplish the same thing, open the mind to see through stored visions.  Bran will no longer need it after a while because he has the green sight.  Dany's ability to read these visions is temporary.  Perhaps the warlocks cannot themselves create visions but they can control which she sees and how much she sees. 

I believe Drogon killed the Undying.  Even if Dany was tripped by the elixir, Drogon was not.  Drogon would make sure to do a thorough job.  Fire will not stop unless it is put out or runs out of fuel.  There were plenty of fuel in that room and no water to challenge the fire.  Yeah they got turned to ashes.

[sartre#1]

I also wondered why the Undying ones would allow such a dangerous thing to happen.  They have lived a long time, by not being stupid.  There must be many people who would want to assassinate them somehow and to allow Danny to come into a room where they all were seems a little risky.  You have an interesting idea about the Shade of the Evening drink.  So does this this mean that Euron also has some reactions to drinking this stuff too?   Afterwards in Qarth there seems to be an increase in magic too.  I know it seems like there is a connection between dragon and magic, could the Undying ones get some benefits somehow from having a dragon with in there location?   

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

27 minutes ago, sartre#1 said:

I also wondered why the Undying ones would allow such a dangerous thing to happen.  They have lived a long time, by not being stupid.  There must be many people who would want to assassinate them somehow and to allow Danny to come into a room where they all were seems a little risky.  You have an interesting idea about the Shade of the Evening drink.  So does this this mean that Euron also has some reactions to drinking this stuff too?   Afterwards in Qarth there seems to be an increase in magic too.  I know it seems like there is a connection between dragon and magic, could the Undying ones get some benefits somehow from having a dragon with in there location?  

I'm not sure what has been happening to Euron exactly, but... spoilers from Aeron Damphair chapter:

Spoiler

Euron does force Aeron to drink it on 2 occasions, and it had a similar affect to what we saw with Dany, except that instead of telepathically connecting with the Undying, it appears that Aeron telepathically connected to Euron. I think Euron is basically a scientist who has been experimenting with telepathy his entire life. He claims to have killed his brother Harlon by pinching his nose shut (greyscale had closed his mouth). Speculating a bit, it seems that Euron also had greyscale and lost sight in one eye, increasing his telepathic abilities (like BR and the one-eyed future-telling whore Yna). Harlon, trapped in a windowless tower unable to speak, telepathically called out to Euron begging for death. Euron gave him mercy and then decided to pursue a life exploring and exploiting telepathy. It seems that he has somewhat replicated his Harlon experience with his crew of mutes.

I'm highly skeptical of the dragons-magic connection, but it is definitely possible that the Undying are stronger in Drogon's presence.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

39 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

Those visions were meant to distract Dany and lure her further into the house.  The purpose?  To hold her under their spell.  I also believe the weirwood paste and the shade of the evening accomplish the same thing, open the mind to see through stored visions.  Bran will no longer need it after a while because he has the green sight.  Dany's ability to read these visions is temporary.  Perhaps the warlocks cannot themselves create visions but they can control which she sees and how much she sees. 

I believe Drogon killed the Undying.  Even if Dany was tripped by the elixir, Drogon was not.  Drogon would make sure to do a thorough job.  Fire will not stop unless it is put out or runs out of fuel.  There were plenty of fuel in that room and no water to challenge the fire.  Yeah they got turned to ashes.

See, I also used to think that the visions were just to maintain some sort of spell, but why bother with all the prophecy stuff? Showing her the RW, and telling her that she needs to light 3 fires and ride 3 mounts and will know 3 betrayals and all that stuff just seems super unnecessary, as well as being coincidentally convenient for us readers who love all the vague prophecy-type clues. Additionally, how were any of those prophecies ever supposed to come true if Dany ended up trapped/killed by the Undying? It just doesn't make sense to show her prophecies if she is never going to leave. And we know that at least the vision of the RW turned out to be true, so they aren't just making shit up. They have legit knowledge of the future and are sharing it for some purpose.

I think you may have missed my point about the "elixir" and the moving floor. Shade of the evening, as far as I can tell, is not hallucinogenic (and yes I have actually taken hallucinogenic drugs before ). It simply amplifies telepathic abilities and perhaps opens your mind to more readily delve into your own memories. So by that logic, the shade of the evening on its own didn't cause any visions. The Undying themselves were controlling everything Dany saw and felt. So when she is trying to escape and thinks the floor is moving under her feet, I am saying that vision of the moving floor must still be an illusion controlled by the Undying, which in turn would mean they are still alive and sending Dany visions at that point. In other words, as soon as the Undying get allegedly burned alive, the shade of the evening should stop causing crazy visions like moving floors.

And you say there was plenty of fuel and no water in that room, but I don't think we ever actually saw the room. There probably isn't an audience chamber, or chairs, or a table with a big floating heart. There probably isn't anything at all inside the HOTU except for the Undying themselves, who are probably entwined into the root system like BR. So there could be a bunch of water ready to go and we would have no idea. Also, the real Undying may not be ultra flammable like the (possibly) fake ones.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I hope this isn't true, the Undying and there people give me the creeps. I was glad when Euron made them eat each other.

[Kaibaman]

I've always felt that in a way the Undying Ones wasn't to trap Dany or to eat her but rather to corrupt her, turn her into an agent of chaos. Is quite possible that the reason Euron knows so much stuff like going through Valyria and the prophecy of the apocalypse to come, as well as why he has access to Shade of the Evening. I think he probably paid them a visit before Dany did and underwent the same kind of spiritual quest, only the Undying Ones succeeded in turning him into their harbinger of death while Dany was spared the same fate when Drogon took them out and rescued her.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

I've always felt that in a way the Undying Ones wasn't to trap Dany or to eat her but rather to corrupt her, turn her into an agent of chaos. Is quite possible that the reason Euron knows so much stuff like going through Valyria and the prophecy of the apocalypse to come, as well as why he has access to Shade of the Evening. I think he probably paid them a visit before Dany did and underwent the same kind of spiritual quest, only the Undying Ones succeeded in turning him into their harbinger of death while Dany was spared the same fate when Drogon took them out and rescued her.

Probably so.  The overall relationship between the telepaths (Greenseers and Undyings Ones) remind me of an old Scifi movie called "The Time Machine" where the people on the surface are preyed upon by the people who live below the ground.  The eloi and the morlocks.  The Greenseers and the Undying Ones manipulate some susceptible surface dwellers to provide for them continuous supply of blood sacrificial victims.  How does this relate to the Others?  Perhaps they are victims of the telepaths too and they have managed to rid the other side of the wall with these dangerous humans.  They want to cross the wall and march down to the God's Eye and kill the last few remaining telepaths including Bran.  

[sgtpimenta]

If the Undying could show anything to Dany and all she saw inside the HotU, why they showed the last room? Why present themselves as a menace if they could just show themselves as allies, or family, or whatever to influence Dany? Why scare the shit out of her? They could just be cool. Kind like Quaithe. Sure, she's up to no good. But she never got herself burnt. Dany doesn't know if she is an enemy or a dangerous ally; but at least she listens to the masked lady. That's a good, sound plan if you don't want to be turned to ash. Now, present yourself as a scary-weird-mummy-parasite-collective and you are asking to burn.

One thing that lends credibility to the mainstream explanation is that: they were trying to influence and convince her to make her lower her guard. They were trying to imprison Dany and control the power of her dragons. But that trick didn't work with Drogon. So, the undying got maybe more than they would prefer.

I don't know. I'm a simple man. Maybe too simple... but I don't need no double-spin-gotcha-Shyamalan-style-twist.

[sgtpimenta]

18 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think you may have missed my point about the "elixir" and the moving floor. Shade of the evening, as far as I can tell, is not hallucinogenic (and yes I have actually taken hallucinogenic drugs before ). It simply amplifies telepathic abilities and perhaps opens your mind to more readily delve into your own memories. So by that logic, the shade of the evening on its own didn't cause any visions. The Undying themselves were controlling everything Dany saw and felt. So when she is trying to escape and thinks the floor is moving under her feet, I am saying that vision of the moving floor must still be an illusion controlled by the Undying, which in turn would mean they are still alive and sending Dany visions at that point. In other words, as soon as the Undying get allegedly burned alive, the shade of the evening should stop causing crazy visions like moving floors.

And you say there was plenty of fuel and no water in that room, but I don't think we ever actually saw the room. There probably isn't an audience chamber, or chairs, or a table with a big floating heart. There probably isn't anything at all inside the HOTU except for the Undying themselves, who are probably entwined into the root system like BR. So there could be a bunch of water ready to go and we would have no idea. Also, the real Undying may not be ultra flammable like the (possibly) fake ones.

I don't know about this shade of the evening is not hallucinogenic.  Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know.

Sure, the Undying must have some power with those visions. That's all the point with them inviting Dany to their house: to show that they have some kind of power not present elsewhere. But the moving floor it's not such a big deal. It's not like some elaborated illusion, like all those others before. It could be just some kind of after effect, like a psychedelic telepathic death rattle. If she were to enter in another elaborated vision, then you could argue that they must be alive. But, as it is, it's not very convincing.

In any rate, SotE is having some kind of effect on Dany, and Drogon didn't drink any of it. And it is thanks to him that Dany snaps out of the hypnotic effects of the visions. Even before he burns those shade of the evening colored bastards, he is already helping her to wake up and keep moving. How does Drogon fits in your scenario?

 

 

[Kaibaman]

9 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Probably so.  The overall relationship between the telepaths (Greenseers and Undyings Ones) remind me of an old Scifi movie called "The Time Machine" where the people on the surface are preyed upon by the people who live below the ground.  The eloi and the morlocks.  The Greenseers and the Undying Ones manipulate some susceptible surface dwellers to provide for them continuous supply of blood sacrificial victims.  How does this relate to the Others?  Perhaps they are victims of the telepaths too and they have managed to rid the other side of the wall with these dangerous humans.  They want to cross the wall and march down to the God's Eye and kill the last few remaining telepaths including Bran.  

Could be although there are still wargs on their side of the Wall perhaps in greater numbers than the South. Plus the Children have taken refuge there, although its still possible they them and the Others have been waging a war for eons now. Perhaps Bloodraven and his higher ups (Old Gods) and even the Undying Ones are manipulating powerful telepaths like Bran and Dany to eliminate the Others because they are the true threat to the world and for the Old Gods, the Others are essentially there to keep them in check.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

6 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

If the Undying could show anything to Dany and all she saw inside the HotU, why they showed the last room? Why present themselves as a menace if they could just show themselves as allies, or family, or whatever to influence Dany? Why scare the shit out of her? They could just be cool. Kind like Quaithe. Sure, she's up to no good. But she never got herself burnt. Dany doesn't know if she is an enemy or a dangerous ally; but at least she listens to the masked lady. That's a good, sound plan if you don't want to be turned to ash. Now, present yourself as a scary-weird-mummy-parasite-collective and you are asking to burn.

One thing that lends credibility to the mainstream explanation is that: they were trying to influence and convince her to make her lower her guard. They were trying to imprison Dany and control the power of her dragons. But that trick didn't work with Drogon. So, the undying got maybe more than they would prefer.

I don't know. I'm a simple man. Maybe too simple... but I don't need no double-spin-gotcha-Shyamalan-style-twist.

I think you may have missed the whole point of the OP there. I am saying they did not get burned at all, because the audience chamber was just another vision.

6 hours ago, sgtpimenta said:

In any rate, SotE is having some kind of effect on Dany, and Drogon didn't drink any of it. And it is thanks to him that Dany snaps out of the hypnotic effects of the visions. Even before he burns those shade of the evening colored bastards, he is already helping her to wake up and keep moving. How does Drogon fits in your scenario?

Drogon and Dany are connected. I think Drogon was just as much under their influence as Dany was, because I don't think the floating heart was real, and Drogon obviously thought so. Dany didn't "snap out" of anything. They wanted her to think she snapped out of it, but she was still under their control. It was all a big trick.

[Moiraine Sedai]

There was a trick being played but not what you thought.  The undying are weak and only served up weak illusion.  Dany herself was responsible for the visions.  She is a dreamer like Daenys.  That's why the undying want her like BR wants Bran.

If the undying truly understood the speech of dragons they would have known what Drogon would do.  They knew nothing of dragons.  It was all a trick.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 5/24/2017 at 7:24 AM, Amris said:

You are of course right that there are many parallels between the Greenseers and their weirwood trees and the Undying and their inverted weirwood trees. I don't want to recount them all here because the topic has already been discussed.

It is clear that the Undying have some connection to their inverted weirwood trees. Through their shade of evening (derived from those trees) at the very least. That much you surely are right about. Whether they really are 'hooked up' to the tree roots like greenseers I don't know. In the end it does not really matter I think. What matters is that they somewhat are connected to their trees (in whatever way).

Where I don't think you are on the right track is the nature of the visions Dany gets:

My reasoning is that you reduce the Undying visions Dany has to something telepathic and hallucinogenic.

However I think we both agree that the visions are more than that. Even if we assume that the visions Dany gets have been sent to her telepathically by the Undying some of the visions show specific future events. The Red Wedding that has not happened at that point yet for instance. And the sacking of Astapor which also has not happened yet.

That means that there is a supernatural or mystical element at play here in addition to supposed telepathy and hallucination.

So the parallels between the HotU and Bloodraven's hollow hill are numerous and pretty convincing for me.

As you said these have been looked at in depth elsewhere, so I won't list them all, but the similarity between the children of the forest and the sevitors is remarkable.

I've always wondered if the "servitors" aren't really the ones in charge in the HotU...

Without diving into a whole HotU analysis, I think it's worth pointing out that at the end she asks a bunch of questions before she receives the "images in indigo"... (3 fires, 3 loves, 3 treasons)

Quote

“I have come for the gift of truth,” Dany said. “In the long hall, the things I saw… were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come?  What did they mean?
…the shape of shadows… morrows not yet made… drink from the cup of ice… drink from the cup of fire… mother of dragons… child of three
“Three?” She did not understand.

She asks 6 questions (include that last "three?" and gets six answers...

she also sees six rooms before seeing Pryat Pree then the Grand Undying then he Heart Room (3).

I won't go though all and the implications I think they are making... but the very first room is of servitors:

Quote

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Could these be the "Shape of Shadows"?

Are the Servitors the ones in charge of the House of the Undying? Are the Children of the Forest in charge of the Weirwoods' hollow hill? 

But I do like the idea that the Undying are stuck in their thrones the same way Bloodraven is.

Also, not a huge deal, but I think the highlighted bit of your post, about the visions, is a big assumption.

Quote

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

While I understand many if not most think this is the red wedding... there is only one silent (mute) dire wolf: Ghost. Also, why would Robb/Greywind look to Dany with appeal? (Not to mention his crown was iron and bronze, and Jon has visions of a feast of the dead himself)

Finally, I have no idea what you are talking about Astapor... but that's not really important, I think however you cut it there is still some truth/power to the prophesies we see in the HotU, much like the visions shown to Bran in the Hollow Hill.

 

[sgtpimenta]

13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think you may have missed the whole point of the OP there. I am saying they did not get burned at all, because the audience chamber was just another vision.

I understood your point just fine. My point is: why they show such an illusion? Why to show themselves as enemies? If they have such powers as you think, couldn't they do like Quaithe and... just be cool?

Your point seems to be that the Undying were just some kind of Wizard of Oz. Sure, in the end of the day, the Wizard wasn't so mighty and powerful, but - by all accounts - the undying are not even half as competent. At least Oz knew better than show himself as an old mummy...

We just don't have enough evidence to think that there is more to the undying than what we have seem so far. Since Danny burned them, all we have is a bunch of failed assassinations and captured warlocks. They don't look like some powerful masterminds. They look pathetic.

Quote

Drogon and Dany are connected. I think Drogon was just as much under their influence as Dany was, because I don't think the floating heart was real, and Drogon obviously thought so. Dany didn't "snap out" of anything. They wanted her to think she snapped out of it, but she was still under their control. It was all a big trick.

Sure, you can think as you want. It's just not very convincing when you present such thoughts unaccompanied of text-based evidence.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 5/26/2017 at 0:13 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

There was a trick being played but not what you thought.  The undying are weak and only served up weak illusion.  Dany herself was responsible for the visions.  She is a dreamer like Daenys.  That's why the undying want her like BR wants Bran.

If the undying truly understood the speech of dragons they would have known what Drogon would do.  They knew nothing of dragons.  It was all a trick.

Sure, maybe. Do you have evidence from the text to back up your idea, or are you just guessing? Why do the Undying want a dreamer? Can dragon speech even be understood? How do you know they knew nothing of dragons?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 5/26/2017 at 0:34 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But I do like the idea that the Undying are stuck in their thrones the same way Bloodraven is.

One of the things that always bugged me about the Undying was, why don't they ever seem to leave their house? Why do they have to send the warlocks to fetch Dany for them? And why is the HOTU itself physically surrounded by the trees that make shade of the evening? This theory, if correct, provides neat little explanations to these questions, and highlights that previously unnoticed parallel between the HOTU and BR's hollow hill.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 5/26/2017 at 3:09 PM, sgtpimenta said:

I understood your point just fine. My point is: why they show such an illusion? Why to show themselves as enemies? If they have such powers as you think, couldn't they do like Quaithe and... just be cool?

Your point seems to be that the Undying were just some kind of Wizard of Oz. Sure, in the end of the day, the Wizard wasn't so mighty and powerful, but - by all accounts - the undying are not even half as competent. At least Oz knew better than show himself as an old mummy...

We just don't have enough evidence to think that there is more to the undying than what we have seem so far. Since Danny burned them, all we have is a bunch of failed assassinations and captured warlocks. They don't look like some powerful masterminds. They look pathetic.

Sure, you can think as you want. It's just not very convincing when you present such thoughts unaccompanied of text-based evidence.

Sure, maybe they could have acted like Quaithe, but obviously they didn't. Maybe that wouldn't have served their purpose. We will have to wait and see if TWOW or ADOS provide us with more answers. The bottom line is, I think they did what they did to affect Dany, and I assume it worked as intended.

And yes they look pathetic, but that's no good reason to think they really are. It is classic GRRM to make the apparent weaker force actually secretly be the dominant force. See: And Seven Times Never Kill Man.

And you said "unaccompanied of text-based evidence" even though 1) the OP is all directly based on the text and 2) I provided the link to my giant grand theory which this was originally posted in the context of, as I stated in the OP. So if you would like more evidence for this, you are welcome to read my entire grand theory.