Wonder Woman (spoiler thread) - skip to pg. 14 for actual movie discussion

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, the Civil War was the bloodiest war that had happened, like, ever, up until WW1. 750,000 deaths in the actual war from combatants. If you want to go further, the Napoleonic war was even more brutal (though not to soldiers). 

Well, just because Wonder Woman wasn't there doesn't mean Ares wasn't. 

Not sure how many Greek/Mediterranean immigrants you had in America at the time of the Civil War. If we want to use the American God's template for how these things work, I would have to think more of those folks were involved in WWI than were involved in the American Civil War.

[DunderMifflin]

 Well Ares was a big time slave owner himself. Maybe he sent some goons to fight for the Confederacy. He would likely be living on Mars during the time of the Civil War though.

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

I honestly think it's entirely due to Captain America being set in WWII. The first trailer for WW was already pretty similar to Cap's first trailer and this allows it to look a little bit different.

I'm glad they did because WWI is rarely covered in film anymore.

I just hope they don't do the lazy thing of portraying the Germans as evil and stick more to them being influenced by a supervillain. I'll spoiler tag as not sure whether this is in the film blurb

  Hide contents

having Ares stirring shit up throughout Europe could actually work as a way of "explaining" the insanity that was world war I. Even if there are lots of good legitimate reasons why it happened anyhow

 

As an historian, I've gotten progressively more uneasy watching the ascension pop culture making the supernatural and super villains explain the evils that plain old average humanity has perpetuated on itself and the planet all on its own responsibility. As this trend has paralleled the rising tide of conviction that facts can be "alter" and actual news is fake and science is matter of opinion, while people believe more and more in guardian angels and the rest.  It really crystalized for me with Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer -- making the supernatural responsible for the true sin and crime of antebellum slavery and the slave trade -- and for Yellow Fever as well.

Mileage obviously varies on this.  But -- how far are we from leaders who think performing sacrifices, reading entrails and consulting sybils is an acceptable way to make war, commit genocide and pull out from requiring immunization for school children? 

Edited to add that whereas WWI may not be a popular subject in movies in the US, it sure is in romance fiction and other genres.  In Europe and the UK it's on television a lot -- I don't know about movies though.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Edited to add that whereas WWI may not be a popular subject in movies in the US, it sure is in romance fiction and other genres.  In Europe and the UK it's on television a lot -- I don't know about movies though.

 I'd argue that it is pretty damn popular over here as well. WWII seems to be more popular for whatever reason, but WWI gets plenty of pub.

[Corvinus85]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

As an historian, I've gotten progressively more uneasy watching the ascension pop culture making the supernatural and super villains explain the evils that plain old average humanity has perpetuated on itself and the planet all on its own responsibility. As this trend has paralleled the rising tide of conviction that facts can be "alter" and actual news is fake and science is matter of opinion, while people believe more and more in guardian angels and the rest.  It really crystalized for me with Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer -- making the supernatural responsible for the true sin and crime of antebellum slavery and the slave trade -- and for Yellow Fever as well.

Mileage obviously varies on this.  But -- how far are we from leaders who think performing sacrifices, reading entrails and consulting sybils is an acceptable way to make war, commit genocide and pull out from requiring immunization for school children? 

To be fair, Christian dogma has always preached that it's the devil whispering in one's ear that causes one to sin. It's just that ideology started to decline with the Enlightenment (I think), but it never really went away. 

But Wonder Woman will miss a mark, if they just make plain old Ares to be the main villain, rather than clearly show that war as a construct of humanity is the real villain.  

[The Anti-Targ]

5 hours ago, ljkeane said:

I'm not a comic book reader so I've really got no idea what the original canon was but her fighting in WW1 did strike me as a bit odd. It's not too unusual to present the Second World War as being good vs evil but it's pretty hard to view either side in the Great War as the 'good guys' so I'm a little unclear about what's particularly superhero-y about Wonder Women getting involved?

Ares.

From the trailers, as I've not seen the movie, it seems Ares is behind WW1, and that makes a lot of sense. I quite like the idea that Ares foments a war where no side has any moral high ground, as potentially that means a war without end. I'm sure Ares misses the days of the 100 years war, the never ending crusades, the continuously squabbling kingdoms and principalities. Ares just wants war for the sake of it. WWII has too much moral righteousness tied up in it for it to be the work of Ares.

Also, yeah I think Captain America stole the march on WWII and some shadow actor being behind all the Nazi stuff. So it's understandable that they avoided it.

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Edited to add that whereas WWI may not be a popular subject in movies in the US, it sure is in romance fiction and other genres.  In Europe and the UK it's on television a lot -- I don't know about movies though.

 

 

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I'd argue that it is pretty damn popular over here as well. WWII seems to be more popular for whatever reason, but WWI gets plenty of pub.

Also, Battlefield One.

23 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

But Wonder Woman will miss a mark, if they just make plain old Ares to be the main villain, rather than clearly show that war as a construct of humanity is the real villain.  

Well, it will be quite ridiculous if killing Ares ends WW1, given it appears Ares has merely installed himself as a German General, which means he's not directly controlling events. But hopefully the movie does as you say and shows war as primarily being a human problem all on its own. Would be good for Ares to perhaps have turned up mid-war rather than being the motive force behind the war getting started.

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

To be fair, Christian dogma has always preached that it's the devil whispering in one's ear that causes one to sin. It's just that ideology started to decline with the Enlightenment (I think), but it never really went away. 

But Wonder Woman will miss a mark, if they just make plain old Ares to be the main villain, rather than clearly show that war as a construct of humanity is the real villain.  

It wasn't coincidence that with the Enlightenment and its enthusiasm for science we human beans, in many places, were able to roll back the constant devastation of epidemic diseases, as well as those of yellow fever, malaria, tb, women dying from childbirth and infants dying so early -- even the horrors of dysentery, as we learned of germs, vectors and even basic preventives such as soap and water.

We are noting the rise of measles, mumps and many more easily preventable diseases again.* The US is at the head of the list of mothers who die from complications of childbirth within months of births -- in the nations that are considered "developed," because it is a national policy to ignore the mother in favor of the fetus. It is also extremely high up on the list, along with undeveloped nations, in infant mortality. 

And one recalls how undeveloped nations depress women's health, particularly reproductive health and information.

--------------

* Just last week a report informed us that zika is present in NYC mosquito populations (the same mosquito variety btw, that carries the malaria virus, which has arrived here) -- though, it seems, so far, those infected with the zika here have acquired it in the Caribbean, Central and South America.  But NYC is having a very cool and very wet year, much more so than in the last two years, since Zika emerged -- last summer was out-and-out drought -- perfect for the breeding of mosquitos.

 

[Zorral]

2 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

Also, Battlefield One.

Well, it will be quite ridiculous if killing Ares ends WW1, given it appears Ares has merely installed himself as a German General, which means he's not directly controlling events. But hopefully the movie does as you say and shows war as primarily being a human problem all on its own. Would be good for Ares to perhaps have turned up mid-war rather than being the motive force behind the war getting started.

Excellent! --  As per usual, God making very bad things very much worser! (as we ilks that the rural midwest supposedly hate might think).  

[fionwe1987]

It looks like the general Ares pretends to be is Erich Ludendorff. Which is kind of an okay fit for the God of War, given Ludendorff's views on war.  

As for picking WWI over II, I think people forget that trench warfare in WWI was way worse than in WWII. It was static which made the no-man's land to be true sinkholes of human despair and horror. A lof of Mordor is inspired by those battlefields. I think it would be a fitting backdrop for Wonder Woman to learn of the horrors of war, and how it is all shades of grey. I hope the German soldiers are shown to be no different from the allied ones, puppets tossed into the meat grinder for the policies and purposes of their leaders. WWII doesn't quite have the same sense of a senseless war, neither based on ground conditions nor based on the political stakes.

[The BlackBear]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

I honestly think it's entirely due to Captain America being set in WWII. The first trailer for WW was already pretty similar to Cap's first trailer and this allows it to look a little bit different.

I'm glad they did because WWI is rarely covered in film anymore.

I just hope they don't do the lazy thing of portraying the Germans as evil and stick more to them being influenced by a supervillain. I'll spoiler tag as not sure whether this is in the film blurb

  Reveal hidden contents

having Ares stirring shit up throughout Europe could actually work as a way of "explaining" the insanity that was world war I. Even if there are lots of good legitimate reasons why it happened anyhow

 

1 hour ago, The Anti-Targ said:

 

Also, Battlefield One.

Well, it will be quite ridiculous if killing Ares ends WW1, given it appears Ares has merely installed himself as a German General, which means he's not directly controlling events. But hopefully the movie does as you say and shows war as primarily being a human problem all on its own. Would be good for Ares to perhaps have turned up mid-war rather than being the motive force behind the war getting started.

IMDB spoiler about Ares identity, not been released publicly so many would view this as a film spoiler, look at your own risk.

Spoiler

He's being played by David Thewlis who is mostly credited as Sir Patrick, a British civil servant/minister from the looks of things. I think that's a nice choice having the manipulator on the side most going into the film would view as 'our' side.

 

[Egalitarianism Always]

On 29/05/2017 at 6:27 PM, Kalbear said:

That is a state specific law, and specific to certain areas. Heck, in  the US it's illegal in some places to drink unless you belong to a club, so you have to buy a membership in order to drink. 

The gender discriminatory  screening would not happen legally in the UK at all, it would be prohibited by the Equality and Human Rights Commission in the United Kingdom as unlawful discrimination.  

In the USA the state action doctrine has stopped Federal law being created to stop divisive and abusive public events, that Federal law would be based on Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.  

Kalbear, your post isn't correct at all, it is no more specific to certain areas, nor is it bizarre or a rarity to battle to stop ALL gender discrimination.  State courts in California, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have ruled that ladies' night are unlawful Gender-Based Discrimination under state or local statutes. However, courts in Illinois, Minnesota, and Washington have rejected a variety of challenges to such discrimination.

The Oligarchy may continue its old divide and conquer tactics using moronic cliches on restricting 'genders' and 'races' and 'economic classes', but the Oligarchy and servants does not have logic on their side that human's e capable of immense imagination, what we have at present is just the beginning of our individual and collective abilities.

Abusive people exist in all ages and identifications, some people just are self-entitled abusers whatever superficial group they appear to be in, it is merely opportunity that decides when they will act.  The ruling Oligarchy are the solipsists who have decided to group together to eliminate, divide or control all others.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

40 minutes ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

Kalbear, your post isn't correct at all, it is no more specific to certain areas, nor is it bizarre or a rarity to battle to stop ALL gender discrimination.  State courts in California, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have ruled that ladies' night are unlawful Gender-Based Discrimination under state or local statutes. However, courts in Illinois, Minnesota, and Washington have rejected a variety of challenges to such discrimination.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same sort of Ladies' Night promotions or not, but if this is a law in California, it's not enforced. There are all sorts of bars and Night Clubs that promote regular Ladies Nights in the Bay Area. Maybe the difference here is that these aren't typically exclusive. They usually signify that women will not pay a cover charge, and there will be featured drinks that are discounted for women. I knew of a couple of Gay bars in San Francisco that used to promote an exclusive version of this, but I'm not sure if that is something that is still occurring as I haven't lived in the city since the late 90's.   

[Kalbear]

20 minutes ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

In the USA the state action doctrine has stopped Federal law being created to stop divisive and abusive public events, that Federal law would be based on Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.  

Kalbear, your post isn't correct at all, it is no more specific to certain areas, nor is it bizarre or a rarity to battle to stop ALL gender discrimination.  State courts in California, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin have ruled that ladies' night are unlawful Gender-Based Discrimination under state or local statutes. However, courts in Illinois, Minnesota, and Washington have rejected a variety of challenges to such discrimination.

So...I am right in saying that it's a state-specific law and isn't enforced the same way in every place? And that it certainly isn't particularly normal in most states to restrict all gender discrimination? Good to know. 

20 minutes ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

The Oligarchy may continue its old divide and conquer tactics using moronic cliches on restricting 'genders' and 'races' and 'economic classes', but the Oligarchy and servants does not have logic on their side that human's e capable of immense imagination, what we have at present is just the beginning of our individual and collective abilities.

Dude, it's two showings at one movie theater. I doubt seriously that the Alamo Draft House is now part of the oligarchy, and reject outright that a movie theater that is going to have a Clowns-Only showing for IT is also using its vast power to control humanity's upward mobility.

20 minutes ago, Traveller between Worlds said:

Abusive people exist in all ages and identifications, some people just are self-entitled abusers whatever superficial group they appear to be in, it is merely opportunity that decides when they will act.  The ruling Oligarchy are the solipsists who have decided to group together to eliminate, divide or control all others.

Sweet! I'm guessing the Wonder Woman topic is when your self-entitled abuse sensor went off and you had to act?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Sweet! I'm guessing the Wonder Woman topic is when your self-entitled abuse sensor went off and you had to act?

Somebody broke the chain on his Bracelets of Submission, freeing him to post at will.

[Corvinus85]

Fair warning to people visiting this thread: the movie is released tomorrow, in the USA at least, so (hopefully soon) the discussion will move away from current topics, and into spoilery reviews of the movie. 

[The Anti-Targ]

3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Excellent! --  As per usual, God making very bad things very much worser! (as we ilks that the rural midwest supposedly hate might think).  

What can one expect when the God of War decides to personally involve himself in human affairs? The God of Was isn't going to be a passive observer in a movie about a big war, where he is one of the antagonists.

[Joe Pesci]

So one theater in all of the US is having a few women only screenings, and people are complaining about it? How fucking pathetic. I'm pretty sour on the DC movies outside of the first two Batman films, but this one looks pretty good, and the WWI angle is actually pretty intriguing to me and needed to avoid the Captain America comparison as mentioned up thread. I know none of the Wonder Woman backstory outside of what I've read on this thread, so going into this without any preconceptions of what it should be will probably make it more enjoyable, as I tend to constantly compare things on screen with what I know of the source material. Here's to hoping this film delivers.

[Egalitarianism Always]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm not sure we're talking about the same sort of Ladies' Night promotions or not, but if this is a law in California, it's not enforced. There are all sorts of bars and Night Clubs that promote regular Ladies Nights in the Bay Area. Maybe the difference here is that these aren't typically exclusive. They usually signify that women will not pay a cover charge, and there will be featured drinks that are discounted for women. I knew of a couple of Gay bars in San Francisco that used to promote an exclusive version of this, but I'm not sure if that is something that is still occurring as I haven't lived in the city since the late 90's.   

Doesn't surprise me at all that it isn't enforced everywhere.  One law for one and one for another, as some men do some women think they can too, of course this is using the divisive terminology their small minds abuse for capitalistic purposes.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Traveller between Worlds said:

Doesn't surprise me at all that it isn't enforced everywhere.  One law for one and one for another, as some men do some women think they can too, of course this is using the divisive terminology their small minds abuse for capitalistic purposes.

Here's the thing though, the whole Ladies Night thing (at least traditionally) is not really a divisive thing at all. It's basically about getting more women into the night club or bar. In a hetero context, it benefits the men as much as it does the women, assuming that both are looking to meet members of the opposite sex.