Was Jon actually a good Lord Commander?

[Agent 326]

I hold to the belief that Jon was a shitty Lord Commander. After all one has to be pretty controversial to get stabbed by their own men right?

1. Jon gave Stannis lands, shelter, advice, food. And then the Pink Letter comes and all the sudden Stannis is said to be dead. Personally I see Stannis winning the Battle of Ice as honestly logical people, how can he not? (Also wait what Ramsay said in the Pink Letter that Stannis's friends have their heads on spikes on the walls of Winterfell, uhhhhhhh) This means that the Boltons, Freys, Lannisters and Tyrells may set their sites on Jon who helped a pretender to the Iron Throne.

2. Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. Jon had a bad choice either way, let him live and men will whisper about Jon being weak, kill him and Jon isn't going to boost relations with the Crown.

3. Jon gave the gift of mercy to Mance Rayder. This makes people think that Jon actually is friends with Mance.

4. This one big error when talking to Stannis. "They north rode with Robb," Jon I ADWD.

5. Jon's plan at the end of ADWD to desert and kill Ramsay.

6. Confessing to killing Qhorin Halfhand. Why not say the wildlings did it?

7. Confessing to sleeping with Ygritte. Why not say that nothing happened their, yes one could say that Jon is honorable to a fault but then again one must ask if that is actually true considering Jon's plan at the end of ADWD.

8. The deal he made with Tycho Nestoris. He makes that deal and then all the sudden they think he is dead turning the Throne against him even further because it basically serves as a big middle finger to the Crown by saying I'm going to profit on you not paying your debts to a bank that will always have its due.

9. The wildling rescue mission at Hardhome that was planned.

I probably could think of more but I can't right now.

[RhaenysBee]

The reason why you don't get responses is that the topic is in the wrong subforum. You should try posting it in Gen Asoiaf, I'm sure there'll be more interest in the topic there. And welcome to the board  

[rocksniffer]

<snipped>

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 6/4/2017 at 0:38 AM, Agent 326 said:

I hold to the belief that Jon was a shitty Lord Commander. After all one has to be pretty controversial to get stabbed by their own men right?

1. Jon gave Stannis lands, shelter, advice, food. And then the Pink Letter comes and all the sudden Stannis is said to be dead. Personally I see Stannis winning the Battle of Ice as honestly logical people, how can he not? (Also wait what Ramsay said in the Pink Letter that Stannis's friends have their heads on spikes on the walls of Winterfell, uhhhhhhh) This means that the Boltons, Freys, Lannisters and Tyrells may set their sites on Jon who helped a pretender to the Iron Throne.

2. Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. Jon had a bad choice either way, let him live and men will whisper about Jon being weak, kill him and Jon isn't going to boost relations with the Crown.

3. Jon gave the gift of mercy to Mance Rayder. This makes people think that Jon actually is friends with Mance.

4. This one big error when talking to Stannis. "They north rode with Robb," Jon I ADWD.

5. Jon's plan at the end of ADWD to desert and kill Ramsay.

6. Confessing to killing Qhorin Halfhand. Why not say the wildlings did it?

7. Confessing to sleeping with Ygritte. Why not say that nothing happened their, yes one could say that Jon is honorable to a fault but then again one must ask if that is actually true considering Jon's plan at the end of ADWD.

8. The deal he made with Tycho Nestoris. He makes that deal and then all the sudden they think he is dead turning the Throne against him even further because it basically serves as a big middle finger to the Crown by saying I'm going to profit on you not paying your debts to a bank that will always have its due.

9. The wildling rescue mission at Hardhome that was planned.

I probably could think of more but I can't right now.

Controversial does not equal shitty.

1. Jon didn't "give" Stannis anything. He allowed Stannis to do what he wanted because Stannis 1) claims to the rightful king, and 2) showed up when all the other "kings" of the realm were ignoring the pleas of the Night's Watch for help. Jon's first duty as LC is to protect the people of Westeros, and Stannis is the only throne-claimant at this time who gives a damn about doing the same. 

2. He did exactly what he should have there. The man had been a problem, was being a problem, and was going to continue to be a problem. After suggesting execution he couldn't back down, and if he had Slynt would have just hated him more, blaming the LC for the humiliation of everyone having seen what a coward Slynt really was. Further, Jon gave him a merciful death and did it himself rather than staffing it out. Beheading is quick, hanging is not. Even Anne Boleyn was given the consideration of a French swordsman for her own execution. Nobility does have some perks in the middle ages, if only that of getting decapitated rather than being hanged or drawn and quartered.

3. The "gift of mercy" in this story is death. RattleshirtMance was going to die anyway. All Jon did was shorten his agony. Given that the Watch itself is supposed to take care of killing deserters, he was entirely within his rights to do so. He didn't have to let Stannis and Mel burn the guy to begin with, and there were undoubtedly members of the Watch who were complaining about that. There's no way for the guy to win in a lot of these situations.

4. That's an error? Robb was his name. What else was he supposed to call him? "That guy from that castle, you know the one" would not have been helpful.

5. First of all it's not desertion to answer a threat against the entire Watch. Lords Commander leave the Wall for stuff and it's not considered desertion. Lesser members too, for recruiting, and talking to the Northern lords, and rangings. The vows do not include "and stay at Castle Black every second of my life." Second, you cannot possibly have read this far in the series and think that Jon thinks he has a 100% chance of winning that fight. It's 50% at best. If someone threatens to kill you in the medieval world, you have every right to try and kill them. Ignoring a challenge (except under certain circumstances like when your challenger is way too young and inexperienced to have a chance) is considered cowardice.

6. You're faulting him for telling the truth? Seriously? Lying about who killed Qhorin makes the rest of the story suspect, not to mention the fact that the Wildlings would have told everyone he killed Qhorin later. Lying always comes back to bit you in the rear. Jon did the right thing there. The whole thing is too outlandish to be made up, and that's a big part of why Aemon and others believed him. Some people can spot lies easily, and I suspect Aemon was one of them. Had Jon lied about that, he would have lost Aemon's support and effectively signed his own death warrant.

7. There's nothing dishonest about his plan at the end of ADWD. Given the contents of that letter he did the only sane and rational thing he could. Also everything I said in reply to 6. 

8. The deal he made with Tycho Nestoris has nothing to do with the Iron Throne. It was to get the Night's Watch through the winter. Jon doesn't play politics. That's more Bowen's style. I'm curious as to how you even came up with the idea that Jon's deal with the Iron Bank had anything to do with the IT. 

9. Bowen, is that you? It seems that you and he both missed the fact that every Wildling left to die is added to the Wight Infantry that the Others are sending against them. Wildlings who are still north of the Wall are far more dangerous dead than alive. Saving them gives Westeros (and the rest of the realms of men who the NW are supposed to guard) a better chance of not being completely obliterated by the ice zombies.

Fun game. We should do one about whether Mormont was a good LC.

[Agent 326]

On 6/15/2017 at 6:12 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

4. That's an error? Robb was his name. What else was he supposed to call him? "That guy from that castle, you know the one" would not have been helpful.

Yes it is an error. Not talking about Robb, "'They North rode with Robb." (Jon I ADWD).

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 6/18/2017 at 6:27 PM, Agent 326 said:

Yes it is an error. Not talking about Robb, "'They North rode with Robb." (Jon I ADWD).

That's a typo. That's the author's (or editor's, or both) fault. I don't think we can pin it on a character...though I could see some of them thinking in misspelled words.