Who did Robb name as his heir?

[a black swan]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

This is some interesting brainstorming you have here. If Robb was just naming an heir to the Riverlands, then maybe he would pick a Tully, but it's hard to say if most of the bannerman in the Riverlands would follow a woman. Honestly, Edmure makes more sense than Cat. If Robb is still claiming his kingdom includes the North (which he has effectively lost all hold on) than Catelyn makes no sense. Catelyn has no Stark blood and probably very few northern supporters from the northern families. What loyalty does the North have to Catelyn Tully, except she is a widow of their beloved (mostly) Ned?

Naming Cat his heir makes no sense; it could be considered Robb's worst decision and he has made a few bad ones. If Robb named the woman who kidnapped Tyrion Lannister, which poured some gasoline on the fire of the feud between House Lannister and Stark, then she lost Tyrion, which put Ned and the North in a terrible position, and then, finally, she released Jaime Lannister to free her daughters, when she effectively told Rickard Karstark she didn't care about his grief over his sons death when compared to the possible release of her daughters as well as giving away Robb's best bargaining chip. Nope! And the heads of northern households stood around and allowed Robb to do this? They would pull that crown off his head faster than they placed it there. I am not even sure Robb would be ridiculous enough to let Catelyn act as regent for any child he might have with Jeyne.

Now, Jon as heir makes sense for the North. Ned raised Jon as his son at Winterfell, same as Robb, Whether Robb really has the power to get Jon released from his Night's Watch vows in the largest hurdle. It's an oath swore for life, and one wonders how many in the North would react to Jon going back on his vows. But these are troubling times ... so maybe.

Jon doesn't make any sense for the Riverlands, and that is really the only kingdom Robb has control of now, and as judging by what happens at the Red Wedding, he doesn't even have all of the Riverlands supporting him. So what could tie Jon to the riverlands?  A marriage? But to who?

For a moment, I am going to play along with your wild speculation here and say that maybe Robb thought Jon could wed Catelyn, and their heirs could rule this kingdom that Robb was ruling, The North and The Riverlands! It only seems plausible in a very small way to me because both Jon and Catelyn would HATE this! I HATE this idea also! And GRRM likes to do HATEFUL things to his characters and his readers, so ... As awful as it seems, Cat is probably only 35ish, and could definitely have more children. This is so awful to think of, I speculate GRRM could do something so horrible to us, and to Jon and Cat! We know Catelyn would do her duty ... maybe! Jon, I am not so sure of. Thank the gods that Catelyn is dead and the stone-hearted zombie (who cannot procreate, I hope) is walking the Riverlands!

But I don't think that Robb named Cat his heir in any way, shape or form. But Arya is an interesting possibility. So, at one point Robb claims that Bran and Rickon and Arya are dead, and Sansa is married to a Lannister, so she is better than dead as far as succession in the North goes. But later in the story, as other readers have pointed out, Robb doesn't report that Arya is dead.

Maybe Robb does think there is a chance that Arya is still alive? If he names Arya his heir, at least to the Riverlands, and Jon his heir to the North, he has two siblings that the people of their respective regions would follow, and Jon and Arya would work together. I see no conflict between them. They could rule in conjunction with each other. There is that whole exchange between Jon and Arya in AGOT about bastards getting the swords and daughters getting the arms that hints at some possible conclusion for Jon and Arya as partners! I myself suspect it will be through marriage but maybe not!

**TINFOIL ALERT** Here comes my own tinfoil, and it's a biggish hat, like sombrero sized. What if Robb has sensed through Grey Wind, who senses through Nymeria that Arya is still alive? I have often wondered about the dreams these kids and wolves share. At one point, we get Jon dreaming through Ghost and he knows about Shaggydog and Nymeria, and also can't sense Summer (maybe because of the wall?)  Granted Jon doesn't seem aware of his siblings, only his siblings wolves, but who know's what kind of connection and dreams that Robb could have shared with Grey Wind? What if because Grey Wind and Nymeria are both relatively close to one another in the Riverlands, that they can sense more about each other? (I am taking my tinfoil sombrero off now!) I will admit this seems unlikely, because Arya doesn't seem to dream of Robb or Greywind through Nymeria, but it's very slightly possible. But how would Robb ever get to Arya, even if he suspected she could be alive. There are holes in every theory!

More possible than Cat being named Robb's heir, in my opinion.

I do appreciate fresh ideas though (it seems like I seen a similar idea it in a video a while back) about Cat as Robb's heir! 

I will say that I have often thought that Robb's hints about naming Jon as his heir are too obvious and then the whole idea becomes very vague in the story, which makes me suspicious of GRRM's intent. Just a very little bit of me doubts that Jon was Robb's choice. That is why I won't be surprised if Robb didn't name Jon, and if he didn't name Jon, then the only plausible person would be Arya!

Great points.  LSH was one of the witnesses to the Will's sealing, she would know what Robb put in there. If she was against Jon's being the heir when she was alive, I'm sure that opinion would only grow stronger after her "death". So we observe her actions and the fixation she has with finding Arya comes across very clearly. Ironically, it's Arya that will end up bringing her the mercy she needs. It's gonna be a heart-breaking read!

About your theory on the direwolves sensing other Starks...

When does Jon accept Arya is dead? 

Quote

[Jon] remembered suddenly how he used to muss Arya’s hair. His little stick of a sister. He wondered how she was faring. It made him a little sad to think that he might never muss her hair again. (Jon, A Clash of Kings) 

And then later, he doesn't think of Arya in the past tense, like she was dead....

Quote

“If you kill a man, and never mean t’, he’s just as dead,” Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? - (Jon, A Storm of Swords) 

 

Eventually he accepts it, but there seems to be some lingering feeling that she may still be alive. 

 

 

[Lollygag]

I haven't seen anything in the text which indicates that any of the Stark kids can sense each other directly.

The first quote about Arya is from Jon Clash II, so he wasn't sure yet as to her fate since everything went down toward the end of AGOT.

As for the second quote, your relatives are still your relatives even if they're dead.

Jon believed Arya died in KL with Ned.

ADWD Jon XI

"Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.

[Free Northman Reborn]

No need to state that it was Jon, that is a foregone conclusion. More interesting is the whereabouts of the will, and the weight it will carry when it is revealed. For reference, I note Doran's betrothal agreement between Viserys and Arrianne. Clearly there is precedent in the series  for documents to be dredged up from seemingly nowhere for dramatic purposes.

In Robb's case, the will was witnessed and signed by a number of noble lords, so there can be no question about its authenticity. Now, for it to have authority, the Starks would have to have gained back the North - and presumably the Riverlands - so that the authority of a Stark king carries weight. And I foresee that happening fairly soon - probably by the end of Winds. Jon will help Rickon to win back Winterfell, but not as heir. The Will will not be revealed before then. So Jon will act as regent most likely, for Rickon.

And THEN the Will will make its appearance. Now, maybe Rickon dies at that point, leaving Jon no choice but to assume the Throne of the North, or maybe Jon's identity as a Targaryen is revealed. Or maybe Jon just accepts the legimitization offered by Robb, but stands back to Rickon's superior claim. But I am quite certain that Jon will not usurp Rickon's right to rule

[Luddagain]

As I noted on the other thread, the whole point of the heir stuff is that under Catelyn's view the actual heir would be in this order

Possibly a Waynwood Unkown possibly non existant - could be harry the heir)

Possibly a Corbray - 

Descendants of Perrara Royce who is obviously NOT named by accident

Edwyn Frey

Baby Walda

Blackwalder

Perra (baby)

Walton Frey

Steffan Frey

Bryan Frey

Fair Walda

Descendants of Maegelle Vance

[The Commentator]

On 6/9/2017 at 6:56 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

No need to state that it was Jon, that is a foregone conclusion. More interesting is the whereabouts of the will, and the weight it will carry when it is revealed. For reference, I note Doran's betrothal agreement between Viserys and Arrianne. Clearly there is precedent in the series  for documents to be dredged up from seemingly nowhere for dramatic purposes.

In Robb's case, the will was witnessed and signed by a number of noble lords, so there can be no question about its authenticity. Now, for it to have authority, the Starks would have to have gained back the North - and presumably the Riverlands - so that the authority of a Stark king carries weight. And I foresee that happening fairly soon - probably by the end of Winds. Jon will help Rickon to win back Winterfell, but not as heir. The Will will not be revealed before then. So Jon will act as regent most likely, for Rickon.

And THEN the Will will make its appearance. Now, maybe Rickon dies at that point, leaving Jon no choice but to assume the Throne of the North, or maybe Jon's identity as a Targaryen is revealed. Or maybe Jon just accepts the legimitization offered by Robb, but stands back to Rickon's superior claim. But I am quite certain that Jon will not usurp Rickon's right to rule

That is only one condition necessary to give Robb's will any authority, whatever that will might be.  Remember that it takes the ruling monarch on the iron throne to make a bastard legitimate.   Robb was never a king.  He tried but he failed.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is only one condition necessary to give Robb's will any authority, whatever that will might be.  Remember that it takes the ruling monarch on the iron throne to make a bastard legitimate.   Robb was never a king.  He tried but he failed.  

He was king in the north. He laid no claim to the IT. His vassal lords swore fealty to him. He was their king in every way possible 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is only one condition necessary to give Robb's will any authority, whatever that will might be.  Remember that it takes the ruling monarch on the iron throne to make a bastard legitimate.   Robb was never a king.  He tried but he failed.  

No, it takes a =king=, not the king on the IT. Robb was crowned KitN. 

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was king in the north. He laid no claim to the IT. His vassal lords swore fealty to him. He was their king in every way possible 

Exactly.

[Buried Treasure]

On 6/4/2017 at 8:38 PM, Agent 326 said:

Was it Jon?

Was it Bran/ Rickon?

Was it Sansa?

Was it a seed in Jeyne Westerling's womb?

Was it Catelyn?

Was it Edmure?

Was it one of the lordlings in the Vale?

Was it Harrion Karstark?

Feel free to debate away.

If you want to know my opinion I think it was Jon, because I don't think Cat would have been a good choice, Robb doesn't know that Bran/ Rickon are still alive, Harrion is a hostage and is a Karstark who just committed treason, Robb rejects the Lordling idea, why name Sansa when it means the North becomes Tyrion's, Edmure still doesn't seem right and we don't know if Jeyne is actually pregnant (personally I do because it make the North messy and a lot more fun to read about in TWOW).

Harrion's father committed treason, and was punished for it, Harrion himself had committed no crime. Harrion was probably already a prisoner by the time Robb made his will, but that would not have been known to Robb at the time - Harrion was with Bolton's army and Robb had sent orders to Roose to keep Harrion close, Robb did not learn of Duskendale (where Harrion was recaptured) until after arriving at the Twins.

A Karstark is not so ideal as a trueborn Stark, but in the absence of one of those to hand it makes a decent political choice. Robb's goal was to leave a strong, united kingdom in the event of his death and one of the greatest internal weaknesses to his kingdom at the time was that one of his major northern bannerhouses had marched home. Naming Karstark as heir would mean that in the event of his death that rift would be instantly healed, and even if he did not die it would be a major olive branch towards healing the division eventually. By contrast if Jon or Edmure were named heir they would still have to deal with the Karstarks being divided against the kingdom.

[Pontius Pilate]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it takes a =king=, not the king on the IT. Robb was crowned KitN. 

Exactly.

The north is part of Westeros.  Robb can't be king in the north until he wins the rebellion.  We know he lost.  His will has no legal value.

[Makk]

21 minutes ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The north is part of Westeros.  Robb can't be king in the north until he wins the rebellion.  We know he lost.  His will has no legal value.

Everything depends on perspective. Westeros is a continent made up of seven kingdoms. The North declared themselves independent (but took the Riverlands with them) and so the will has "legal value" at least in the North. No idea whether it would have legal value in other places like Bravos. Roose Bolton would say it has no "legal value" but then he will likely have it's value demonstrated on the block.

[StarkofWinterfell]

It was Catelyn.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 6/9/2017 at 6:56 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

No need to state that it was Jon, that is a foregone conclusion. More interesting is the whereabouts of the will, and the weight it will carry when it is revealed. For reference, I note Doran's betrothal agreement between Viserys and Arrianne. Clearly there is precedent in the series  for documents to be dredged up from seemingly nowhere for dramatic purposes.

In Robb's case, the will was witnessed and signed by a number of noble lords, so there can be no question about its authenticity. Now, for it to have authority, the Starks would have to have gained back the North - and presumably the Riverlands - so that the authority of a Stark king carries weight. And I foresee that happening fairly soon - probably by the end of Winds. Jon will help Rickon to win back Winterfell, but not as heir. The Will will not be revealed before then. So Jon will act as regent most likely, for Rickon.

And THEN the Will will make its appearance. Now, maybe Rickon dies at that point, leaving Jon no choice but to assume the Throne of the North, or maybe Jon's identity as a Targaryen is revealed. Or maybe Jon just accepts the legimitization offered by Robb, but stands back to Rickon's superior claim. But I am quite certain that Jon will not usurp Rickon's right to rule

I agree with this, especially the bolded. I do not think that Jon is going to pop his eyes open after he heals to a room full of people staring at him with party hats on all screaming *surprise*, you are the new king! Nope. I think it will play out as written here (to the best of my guesses) and it will maybe be Jon's final struggle (or something) when the will is presented to him.... but this may be where bittersweet comes in??? Who knows

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was king in the north. He laid no claim to the IT. His vassal lords swore fealty to him. He was their king in every way possible 

Yes. Absolutely.

[Prof. Cecily]

On 6/8/2017 at 4:45 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

In Robb's camp Bran and Rickon being dead is considered a cold indisputable fact. Hence there wouldn't be any provisions for them being alive in Robb's testament, just as there weren't any for Ned being still alive, or Grandpa Rickard.

(And in the books, "natural son" is a polite synonym for "bastard").

Are you quite sure of that?

I have the idea that news of the Stark boys' survival is out and about (via the Liddels, especially considering Lord Manderly's deal with Davos.

I don't know how the timeline works out in all that speculation.

What do you think?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Arya .

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Are you quite sure of that?

I have the idea that news of the Stark boys' survival is out and about (via the Liddels, especially considering Lord Manderly's deal with Davos.

I don't know how the timeline works out in all that speculation.

What do you think?

It is of course known from another source too. Howland Reed. Who has been hanging out with Maege Mormont and Gallbart Glover at Greywater Watch for a couple of books now. Howland knows all about Jojen's visions - and in fact sent him on his mission to take Bran to the Three eyed Crow north of the Wall. He knows Jojen's visions ALWAYS come true. So he knows Bran at least did not die at Winterfell.

That means Maege Mormont and Gallbart Glover likely know that too, by now. And this puts young Lyanna Mormont's fierce statement that Bear Islands know only one king in the North and his name is Stark in a whole new light, doesn't it.

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The north is part of Westeros.  Robb can't be king in the north until he wins the rebellion.  We know he lost.  His will has no legal value.

The North was part of the 7K until it seceded and had its own king crowned. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

3 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Are you quite sure of that?

I have the idea that news of the Stark boys' survival is out and about (via the Liddels, especially considering Lord Manderly's deal with Davos.

I don't know how the timeline works out in all that speculation.

What do you think?

It could be true - now and in the North. However, I was talking about the time and place when and where Robb got to writing his testament. Neither he nor Cat did get any news permitting a tiniest bit of hope regarding Bran and Rickon, and if anyone else did, they hid it darn well from the protagonists.

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The North was part of the 7K until it seceded and had its own king crowned. 

That was what they were trying to do but they failed.  Robb and the Starks were soundly defeated.  King's Landing named Roose Bolton the new warden of the north.  What passes for nobles in the north bent their knees to the ruler in King's Landing and formally accepted Roose.  Robb's will has nothing to stand on.  

[The Commentator]

14 hours ago, Satoshi Takeda said:

The north is part of Westeros.  Robb can't be king in the north until he wins the rebellion.  We know he lost.  His will has no legal value.

20 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was king in the north. He laid no claim to the IT. His vassal lords swore fealty to him. He was their king in every way possible 

Robb failed to win independence from the rest of the kingdom.  The men who raised him king had no right to do so.  Thus, Robb was not a king but a "hopeful".  A wannabe that didn't get what he wanted.

[Free Northman Reborn]

15 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Robb failed to win independence from the rest of the kingdom.  The men who raised him king had no right to do so.  Thus, Robb was not a king but a "hopeful".  A wannabe that didn't get what he wanted.

This is such an inane argument. Those who support Robb will continue to believe in his authority, and those who don't, will not. As Martin said. Power resides where men believe it does.

All you are saying is that there are a whole bunch of guys in the rest of Westeros who don't believe it resides with the King in the North. To his supporters, however, it very much does. You're not saying anything controversial or particularly revealing, here.