Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Muttering Ed]

Okay I know this is futile but here goes anyway.  My responses inserted below:

(also please note Wolfmaid that my response is done with respect! I enjoy your posts very much, so even if we disagree on this I still find your comments wonderfully insightful and imaginative. You and some others here have done a lot to open my eyes to these novels!)

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No problemo ehem.

Let's start with the illogical notion that Robert is only capable no matter what girl he knocks up of having black haired children.That is a notion borne from superstitious thinking held by some based their knowledge of who Robert had sex with and if those kids looked like him.

Grrm adresses this in real world:

27-32

MEd: Very entertaining video! I enjoyed that. I really like Indira Varma and frankly I would watch her all day if I could, even if she was just painting rocks. However, I don't take much from GRRM discussing a television show rather than the books, and he also doesn't address (at all) the appearance of Robert's children. All he says is that in medieval times, people used superstitions to explain things they didn't understand whereas today we have a much better understanding of science, specifically genetics, to explain why people look like they do. ReturnOfCaponBreath and several others have already addressed this quite well, establishing that what GRRM wrote is that all of Robert's actual children look like him, regardless of who their mother may be. In GRRM's world all of Bob Baratheon's babes have this look. I realize that's not true in our real world, but that's OK. This is a fantasy novel, not real world. GRRM can be as illogical as he wants in his world. After all, in the real world we don't actually have dragons or magic either, so I can suspend my disbelief in magic black hair and blue eyes.

But more importantly he adresses this in world via very insightul internal monolouge by Cat:

Catelyn read the letter again after the maester was gone. "Lord Meadows says nothing of Robert's bastard," she confided to Brienne. "I suppose he yielded the boy with the rest, though I confess, I do not understand why Stannis wanted him so badly." "Perhaps he fears the boy's claim." "A bastard's claim? No, it's something else . . . what does this child look like?" "He is seven or eight, comely, with black hair and bright blue eyes. Visitors oft thought him Lord Renly's own son." "And Renly favored Robert." Catelyn had a glimmer of understanding. "Stannis means to parade his brother's bastard before the realm, so men might see Robert in his face and wonder why there is no such likeness in Joffrey." 

"Would that mean so much?" "Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine.

Using her as an example Cat is rightfully pointing out this is not proof.It doesn't matter how many kids Robert has that look like him he can have that don't.

So subscribing to this argument that Robert can only have children that look X and have X features is employing some of the same superstitious thinking that he had Cat dispel.

MEd: Again ReturnOfCaponBreath and others addressed this very well already with regards to mix of children, so let me just say that I personally wouldn't base much "truth" on what Cat says or thinks. She is the very definition of the unreliable narrator. She was wrong about the way she treated Jon, she was wrong about sending her daughters south, she was wrong about Tyrion, she was wrong about pledging her children to the murderous and treacherous Freys, and she was wrong about staying in Riverrun rather than returning to Winterfell. The only single time she was right about anything important was in warning her son against Theon Turncloack. Even her undead corpse is wrong about murdering everyone she catches, like Brienne. She is just completely unreliable.

But what is it that Ned truly said on the matter of Robert?Does he understand this?He has to especially if he believes all his kids by Cat are his.

Peycelle tells him about the Thome.he turns to the Lannister page because he thinks that is where he'd find the answer. Peycelle also tells him of Arryn's famous last words... "The seed is strong"

When Sansa says the- Paraphrase, he is nothing like Robert.Ned understands what Arryn was getting at.This is important:

"The seed is strong, Jon Arryn had cried on his deathbed, and so it was. All those bastards, all with hair as black as night. Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago,when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord. Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired.Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad boar with a full head of black hair. ... No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.”

Ned was specifically referencing Baratheon/ Lannister offspring and in no way does"he" think Robert can only sire black haired blue eyed babies.That entire line of thinking as indicated by GRRM is illogoical even for ASOIAF standards as shown by Cat.

What is strange and goes towards clues and perception. Arryn says "The seed is strong" yet it strange readers assume JA when saying this was referencing looks especially when it is not the only Robert or Baratheon trait:

Gendry

"This is Gendry. Strong for his age, and he works hard.

"You saw the boy. Such a strong boy. Those hands of his, those hands were made for hammers.

About Mya

“She found Mya Stone waiting impatiently with Lothor Brune and Mord. She must have come up in the bucket to see what was taking us so long. Slim and sinewy, Mya looked as tough as the old riding leathers she wore beneath her silvery ringmail shirt.”

About Edric

“Edric is a sturdily attractive youth, with jet-black hair and deep blue eyes.

Baratheons in general:

Their only issue, an unnamed boy described in Malleon's tome as a large and lusty lad born with a full head of black hair, died in infancy. 

GRRM has used seed to mean progeny in this series.Thus, Arryn could be just as easily be saying "the children of Robert are strong" This is noticeable in all his kids we have met.

Jon despite being slender was usually strong.Yet,fans seem to have amnesia when it comes to this trait which is as prevalent in these cases.This is how genes work.Some traits manifests some don't.Just as Shireen got Florent ears.

MEd: My humble opinion is that you are reading a little too much into this. In addition to what others have already responded, I don't think that Jon Arryn knew (or thought) anything about the physical strength of all of Bob's babes. I think he meant exactly what everyone including Ned inferred - the sperm is strong and the Baratheon looks win out every time. Strong is just a description in this case, I mean even the lovely Lady Brienne is described as immensely strong, as is noted raven-lover Small Paul. But just because they are strong doesn't make them Bob's babes.

Another thing is you did something common among RLJers.I posted something and your reply had absolutely nothing to do with what i posted,but you preceded to post about what you assume would be a weak point.

MEd: I'm not sure how to respond to this. You said Bob got Lyanna "preggers." I said no he didn't and here's why I believe that he didn't. I'm not sure how our conversation should have gone otherwise. My point was that regardless of the other things you posted, I disagree with your conclusion here. My response had everything to do with what you posted!

So in short. The author himself in text and out gave a rebuttal to the Robert can only have kids only X traits. I mean seriously think about that assertion.

MEd: Actually in the text the author gave many examples of Bob's babes having X traits and no examples otherwise. Out of the text, I don't believe he has said one way or the other specifically about King Bob. Unless someone has a statement from GRRM? I certainly could have missed a statement by him. 

Ned never indicates that belief  at all and it doesn't make sense that he would given his lot.

MEd: Absolutely true! But he also hasn't indicated any thoughts whatsoever about any father for Jon. So we don't know what he thinks about Rhaegar or Bob as the father. Or Arthur, Hightower, Whent, or Howland Reed. Damn you GRRM, throw us a bone here!

When strength of his kids are prevalent as their look and given Arryn's words Jon now remarkable is accentuated more by the fact that he doesn't look it.Blood does tell,and it tells in different ways.As long as its in text ofcourse.

So you can hold to your belief,i will hold to what the text says.No problem with that either.

MEd: Okay. We are both holding to our interpretation of the text. So I don't take this personally.

 

So yep, agree to disagree. 

 

[Lord Wraith]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Personally, I think GRRM hasn't planned all of this stuff out to nearly the level of detail that some readers might hope - as reflected by the snail's pace at which new volumes are being released - and is just taking it as a given that certain unanswered questions won't be relevant to the vast majority of readers. To the rest, he'll offer up improvised, semi-flippant answers at some future Q&A, as he always does. 

Given his gardening style of writing I'd say there is a pretty good chance of this. Certain clues lead in certain directions and he has several ways things could go.

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Um...I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong, but Jon's birthday cannot be confirmed with absolute certainty. All we have to go by is that Dany was born roughly 9 months after Jon, and that bastards grow up faster than trueborn children. Jon very well could be older than Robb and Maester Luwin just told Cat that bastards grow up faster so that she wouldn't freak out any more than she already has about Jon. Old-gods forbid that he's not only Ned's son, but that he is the elder one too.

Absolutely. Especially considering the Fisherman's daughter he would been older than Robb.

 

[LynnS]

 

6 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

There are no know offspring of Robert that aren't black haired. It is proven in the books that the lannister kids are not his.

 

Varys knows of one other of Robert bastards whom he does not name. I will get the appropriate  passages tomorrow since I am not on my own pc today.  Hair and eye color is not mentioned of course; but it is suggestive taken with the conversation between Varys and Mopatis overheard by Arya in mind.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Mixed???Cat has 5 kids for Ned."1" count em "1"  of those children of them looks like him.That isn't a mix.That's 1 in 5.4 are said to have Tully looks,not mixed traits.4 are said to look Tully per Cat.So noooo.

You miss the point Cat made and what GRRM alluded to.Cat was correct the Blondie not looking like Robert doesn't mean they aren't.As in the case with her kids for Ned.

As GRRM states some people tend to be superstitious.They don't about DNA and genes.

So Jon doesn't need to have black hair or blue eyes.He could have just gotten strength just as A hidden got Florent ears.

Again every known bastard has the hair,eyes of varying degrees of blues AND they are described as strong.

No where is it claimed by Ned or anyone that Robert "cannot" have kids that don't differ.It would be a stupid thing to say.Especially in light of the author having a character that understands that means nothing.The fact that the Blondies turned out to not be his was because Cersie cheated.

If Stannis didn't raise doubt no one wouldn't have cared.They just assume it looked like the other parent a reasonable assumption.

How many blondies at birth get darker as they get older.  Likewise a black haired baby can turn it a very dark brunette late in life.  Grey eyes all have a certain amount of blue. What is with Val.  Jon describes her eyes as grey in one passage and blue in another.  I suspect that Jon dark grey eyes may look blue in a certain light.  LOL  

The NW blacksmith describes Robert a the true steel.  Jon is ls the true sword IMO.  That is the inherited characteristic that matters for Jon Snow-Storm....  the stormy disposition.       

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Given his gardening style of writing I'd say there is a pretty good chance of this. Certain clues lead in certain directions and he has several ways things could go.

George is (deceptively) modest. And the rest of us should consider the possibility that, as a writer, he's more or less a landscape architect.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh Lordy, look who's back! Long time no see!

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Notwithstanding the various places they weren't, its worth observing that Lord Eddard may not have been actively hunting them. After all, Hightower, so far as we know, had no involvement in the abduction of Lyanna. The whole business may therefore have been accidental. Lord Eddard is engaged in mopping up the last Targaryen forces; learns of the KIng's Guard and only then [and perhaps even from Ser Arthur Dayne's dying lips] that his long lost sister is still alive and at...

Just to take this a little further, look at this passage again:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

 "When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

 "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Lord Eddard expected them to be at one or more of these places, fighting for King Aerys. He isn't looking for Lyanna and her captors at the Trident, at King's landing or Storms End. Effectively, he's asking them what they are doing out here in the back of beyond, when they should have been at those places. He doesn't know that Lyanna is with them and isn't mounting a rescue.

[Muttering Ed]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just to take this a little further, look at this passage again:

"I looked for you.... snip

That is very, very interesting. I never looked at it this way before. Food for thought.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

George is (deceptively) modest. And the rest of us should consider the possibility that, as a writer, he's more or less a landscape architect.

Is this what the opening sequence of the mummer's version is hinting at? The rise and fall of the various Houses, a giant game of Cyvasse, and overhead a spinning astrolabe symbolizing the three-eyed crow watching from above.

[wolfmaid7]

11 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

Okay I know this is futile but here goes anyway.  My responses inserted below:

(also please note Wolfmaid that my response is done with respect! I enjoy your posts very much, so even if we disagree on this I still find your comments wonderfully insightful and imaginative. You and some others here have done a lot to open my eyes to these novels!)

So yep, agree to disagree. 

 

Dido and glad to have you.

15 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

I didn't miss the point, we just disagree, my disagreeing with you isn't the same as me not understanding.

4/1 is objectively a mix no matter what the ratio the sample size is small. Compare is to 16/0 for Robert (admire we dont get to see all 16 to verify)  + all of The historical births as described in the book the End researches.

Jon looking like a Stark and being recognised as a Stark by Craster, Qhorin and others north Of The wall is highly suggestive of him having at least one Stark Parent be that Lyanna or Ne.or someone else entirely. There is little to suggest the other parent is Robert Baratheon given what we know about his clearly dominant gene pool (16/0 + history) Vs Neds clearly recessive Gene pool (4/1).

6 direwolves one black,one white and 3 grey is a mix.16 m&ms in a bowl with 1 blue one is an anomaly.16 He could have 16/1 and most or all his dominant traits be expressed in the majority with one expressing more of the mother .

If he looks like a Stark its because the Stark traits are mostly dominant when it comes to Baratheon.

Baratheon "strength" traits is afforded equal paper time when speaking about Robert or his offspring yet it is afforded as not important? I disagree with that.

With all do respect I think you are missing the point of Cat's statement.She is making an observation of what we know in real life.One just doesn't know what traits we will inherit.You can't say Stark traits are recessive in general.When in a gene pool with the Tullys that's how it expressed.With a Baratheon we don't know.Though Jon looking so Starkish does have a point.

I will also point out this was also a problem in Tp&tq.With anyone having silver hair claiming they were Dragonseeds.True Dragonseeds were plentiful but it wasn't always the case.

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

More to the point I think, is that while the science is dodgy, it is an established and indeed vitally important plot device that Trouserless Bob's offspring are identified by this [and consequently those who are not his children identified as cuckoos by the lack of those features] and therefore hiding an unexpected child by giving him non-Baratheon markers is well dodgy.

He does have a Baratheon marker.A well established one made more prevalent by Jon not having the stature to explain his exceptional strength.

[Prof. Cecily]

8 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

George is (deceptively) modest. And the rest of us should consider the possibility that, as a writer, he's more or less a landscape architect.

I like that!

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Spoiler

 

Just to take this a little further, look at this passage again:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

 "When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

 "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

 

Lord Eddard expected them to be at one or more of these places, fighting for King Aerys. He isn't looking for Lyanna and her captors at the Trident, at King's landing or Storms End. Effectively, he's asking them what they are doing out here in the back of beyond, when they should have been at those places. He doesn't know that Lyanna is with them and isn't mounting a rescue.

I'd never thought of that possibility.

And then comes my question- what is Ned & party doing there?

11 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Spoiler

 

Dido and glad to have you.

6 direwolves one black,one white and 3 grey is a mix.16 m&ms in a bowl with 1 blue one is an anomaly.16 He could have 16/1 and most or all his dominant traits be expressed in the majority with one expressing more of the mother .

If he looks like a Stark its because the Stark traits are mostly dominant when it comes to Baratheon.

Baratheon "strength" traits is afforded equal paper time when speaking about Robert or his offspring yet it is afforded as not important? I disagree with that.

With all do respect I think you are missing the point of Cat's statement.She is making an observation of what we know in real life.One just doesn't know what traits we will inherit.You can't say Stark traits are recessive in general.When in a gene pool with the Tullys that's how it expressed.With a Baratheon we don't know.Though Jon looking so Starkish does have a point.

 

I will also point out this was also a problem in Tp&tq.With anyone having silver hair claiming they were Dragonseeds.True Dragonseeds were plentiful but it wasn't always the case.

He does have a Baratheon marker.A well established one made more prevalent by Jon not having the stature to explain his exceptional strength.

True dragonseeds.

Your word brought to mind the end of Prince Quentyn and, of course,  the words of my favourite Targ

Quote

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

I wonder what kind of Byzantine twists and turns GRRM will give to subject of true born and bastard Targs.

 

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

How many blondies at birth get darker as they get older.  Likewise a black haired baby can turn it a very dark brunette late in life.  Grey eyes all have a certain amount of blue. What is with Val.  Jon describes her eyes as grey in one passage and blue in another.  I suspect that Jon dark grey eyes may look blue in a certain light.  LOL  

The NW blacksmith describes Robert a the true steel.  Jon is ls the true sword IMO.  That is the inherited characteristic that matters for Jon Snow-Storm....  the stormy disposition.       

It's just weird to me the sentiments..We get Robert's traits and a statement from Arryn  that covers this but its making too much of it.

11 hours ago, Muttering Ed said:

Okay I know this is futile but here goes anyway.  My responses inserted below:

(also please note Wolfmaid that my response is done with respect! I enjoy your posts very much, so even if we disagree on this I still find your comments wonderfully insightful and imaginative. You and some others here have done a lot to open my eyes to these novels!)

So yep, agree to disagree. 

 

Ah dang,i'm on my phone and most of your text that I needed went bye bye.I disagree about making to much into the streangth.It is a Baratheon marker just as prevalent as any other.One that is spoken of over and over.Yet it is being selected to be discarded why? Because its convenient?

Jon's exceptional strength for his size maybe the trait he I inherited because that's what was expressed...."The seed is strong." Double entendres of what that means and yes it would still be a trait.

It also doesn't matter if 5 people believes X on this matter.It doesn't mean they are right.Arguments by popularity can be wrong you know that.

Likewise not every black hair person with blue eyes is one of Robert's 16 children.

My initial post was showing how the clues of the blue rose can take on another shape and be perfectly viable and stronger.You didn't say anything in response to that but immediately jumped to hair and eye color.

That's like me countering and saying I am positive Lyanna would not sleep with a married man with kids.I am actually pretty sure about that.

Your right Baratheon trait...Black hair,blue eyes,green eyes,even seen one with black eyes,pretty strong,hot tempered.

Jon got two.

You pulled a switch and bait...I never claimed anything about Ned thinking about Jon's father.I said Ned never claims or acts as if Robert can't have kids that aren't black haired or blue eyed.He never once thought until the investigation that the Blondies couldn't be Robert's.

Though per Jon Snow's own statement Ned spoke often about Robert to him.

[wolfmaid7]

20 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I like that!

I'd never thought of that possibility.

And then comes my question- what is Ned & party doing there?

True dragonseeds.

Your word brought to mind the end of Prince Quentyn and, of course,  the words of my favourite Targ

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

I wonder what kind of Byzantine twists and turns GRRM will give to subject of true born and bastard Targs.

 

It goes towards how malleable George is.How many Lysnians look like Targs again? A s*×t load.

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just to take this a little further, look at this passage again:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

 "When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

 "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Lord Eddard expected them to be at one or more of these places, fighting for King Aerys. He isn't looking for Lyanna and her captors at the Trident, at King's landing or Storms End. Effectively, he's asking them what they are doing out here in the back of beyond, when they should have been at those places. He doesn't know that Lyanna is with them and isn't mounting a rescue.

If Ned isn't expecting these 3 are here and isn't there for Lyanna,  what possible reason could he have to be in Dorne with 6 vassals?

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Dido and glad to have you.

6 direwolves one black,one white and 3 grey is a mix.16 m&ms in a bowl with 1 blue one is an anomaly.16 He could have 16/1 and most or all his dominant traits be expressed in the majority with one expressing more of the mother .

If he looks like a Stark its because the Stark traits are mostly dominant when it comes to Baratheon.

Baratheon "strength" traits is afforded equal paper time when speaking about Robert or his offspring yet it is afforded as not important? I disagree with that.

With all do respect I think you are missing the point of Cat's statement.She is making an observation of what we know in real life.One just doesn't know what traits we will inherit.You can't say Stark traits are recessive in general.When in a gene pool with the Tullys that's how it expressed.With a Baratheon we don't know.Though Jon looking so Starkish does have a point.

I will also point out this was also a problem in Tp&tq.With anyone having silver hair claiming they were Dragonseeds.True Dragonseeds were plentiful but it wasn't always the case.

He does have a Baratheon marker.A well established one made more prevalent by Jon not having the stature to explain his exceptional strength.

promise me Ned.

Promise me you won't tell Robert that I gave him a bastard son that he will shower with gifts like he is known to do with his other bastards.

Promise me you won't let Robert acknowledge Jon like he has done with Edric Storm.

On lots of levels Jon is not Roberts. Genetically the clues are there unless you choose convoluted and unlikely interpretations.

Plot wise it would make little or no sense.

Trope busting wise (as this seems to be a strong part of any R+l=J rejection) it doesnt really solve the issue. "Sorry Jon you aren't the prince that was promised but great news you are the son Of The former King.

Almost all Of The other logistical and communication issues for R+L=J are the same as for the other R+L=J but for a less satisfying outcome and with the added complication that there is no real reason for the Promise me speech afterwards.

 

I'm hoping to do a post later if i get time on what I think are the relative options and likelihoods of Jons parents as I haven't up to this point had much of an opinion but I consider Robert + Lyanna  a much less likely option than Ned & Wylla or Ned & Ashara.

[Prof. Cecily]

58 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It goes towards how malleable George is.How many Lysnians look like Targs again? A s*×t load.

Hmmm.

Quote

How many Lysnians look like Targs again?

Answer: Not one more nor one less than GRRM needs for his purposes.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

He does have a Baratheon marker.A well established one made more prevalent by Jon not having the stature to explain his exceptional strength.

AGOT Bran 1. (The very first chapter Of The very first book and the very first passage GRRM uses to describe Jon to us)

"he was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong & fast"

GRRM does not establish Jon as "Baratheon strong" at all clearly positioning Robb as the stronger of The two.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Prof. Cecily said:

Hmmm.

Answer: Not one more nor one less than GRRM needs for his purposes.

Bingo.But the Targ features are a dime a dozen.

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

AGOT Bran 1. (The very first chapter Of The very first book and the very first passage GRRM uses to describe Jon to us)

"he was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong & fast"

GRRM does not establish Jon as "Baratheon strong" at all clearly positioning Robb as the stronger of The two.

Saying Robb or some  nameless  person X is stronger than Jon is not establishing Jon as not being strong.There are many people stronger than Jon.It doesn't take away that his feats do not jive with his look.

As for Jon not being established as strong.

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“When the wildling fell the mare bolted, but somehow Jon managed to grab her mane with his off hand and vault himself onto her back……

It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer Jon asos.”

 

 

 

 

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Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm. Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor.

 

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Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull down the other two," he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey….

“To the men struggling with the spears Snow said, "Take the heads and burn them.”

 

 

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“Iron Emmett was a long, lanky young ranger whose endurance, strength, and swordsmanship were the pride of Eastwatch. Jon always came away from their sessions stiff and sore, and woke the next day covered with bruises, which was just the way he wanted it.

And what did Jon do to Emmett? Same Emmet who among other things strength was the pride of EW.

 

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He was almost ready to lower his blade and call a halt when Emmett feinted low and came in over his shield with a savage forehand slash that caught Jon on the temple. He staggered, his helm and head both ringing from the force of the blow. For half a heartbeat the world beyond his eyeslit was a blur. <snip> In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him. Enough!”

 

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In the blink of an eye, Jon had vaulted onto the table, dagger in his hand. Pyp made a grab for him, but he wrenched his leg away, and then he was sprinting down the table and kicking the bowl from Ser Alliser’s hand. Stew went flying everywhere, spattering the brothers. Thorne recoiled. People were shouting, but Jon Snow did not hear them. He lunged at Ser Alliser’s face with the dagger, slashing at those cold onyx eyes, but Sam threw himself between them and before Jon could get around him, Pyp was on his back clinging like a monkey, and Grenn was grabbing his arm while Toad wrenched the knife from his fingers.

 

It took 3 of people to restrain Jon.Somethings i left blank because they made my point.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It's just weird to me the sentiments..We get Robert's traits and a statement from Arryn  that covers this but its making too much of it.

 

Yup, just so.  The seed is strong is not about virility or how many black haired, blue-eyed babies Robert produced... it is about physical strength.  Just search strong and see how often it comes up in association with Robert.  This comes up with NW blacksmith when he tells Jon that Renly was the bronze sword - all show, Stannis was iron - too brittle and Robert was the true steel - In spite of using a warhammer.  Jon is the sword of course.  

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

17 hours ago, Matthew. said:

In the abstract, there are only two necessary assumptions for RLJ: That Rhaegar Targaryen could have impregnated Lyanna Stark, and that the child he impregnated her with is Jon Snow. The former premise is easily plausible within the text, so only the latter is a contradictory assumption, in the sense that it goes against the idea that Eddard is Jon's father--a flaw that will be true of every Lyanna + X scenario.

The premise that X could have impregnated Lyanna Stark is "easily plausible within the text."  

But this true for any X, not just for Rhaegar.  

The problem, as I see it, comes down to questionable justification and sources for the claim that X = R .  

When you boil it down, R+L is Robert Baratheon's Theory. And it's a rape story... not a romance.  Many readers forget that Robert is the one who first suggests the idea in the text - but he does so quite early (AGOT chapters 4 and 12) and quite forcefully.  Robert is adamant that Rhaegar sexually assaulted Lyanna "hundreds of times."  And whether it's true or not, he's got plenty of incentive for believing and advancing that story... after all, it forms the basis for his claim to the throne. 

Thing is, by the end of AGOT, Martin's pulled a bait and switch on his readers. Back in chapter 12, Robert was the heroic king and Rhaegar the kidnapper who raped Ned's sister. But after 72 chapters we realize (1) that Robert was a fool... and (2) that nobody else had much of a problem with Rhaegar. In fact, Rhaegar's begun to look like a model citizen prince. He's certainly no womanizer, according to anyone but Robert. 

So this, in a nutshell, is the problem with RLJ:

• RLJ is the theory that Rhaegar raped Lyanna.  (Robert's Theory)
• But perpetrating rape seems out of character for Rhaegar.  

It is fundamentally a fool's theory... because Robert was a fool. But for some reason we readers cling to it.  And the various iterations of RLJ amount to little more than attempts to overcome the cognitive dissonance captured in these two bullet points.