Heresy 199 Once upon a Time in the West

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I suspect Ned chose the 6 men most loyal to him.   Robert and Jon Arynn were not picked, maybe they were unavailable,  but I think Ned wanted people who would obey without question.   Robert and Jon Arynn being headstrong and seeing themselves as superior.

Robert was injured at the Trident, but I think there were other significant reasons why this crew was chosen.

In particular, Eddard hated the way the sack of King's Landing was carried out, and Robert's willingness to accept what Tywin had ordered with Elia and her children caused a fight between the two; their relationship is still strained at whatever point it is that Eddard has his final reunion with Lyanna, as we're told that he only reconciled with Robert later over their shared grief.

My own inclination is that Eddard chose his party because he knew what he would find in Dorne: Lyanna, pregnant. What he'd just learned at King's Landing is that he couldn't trust his own allies--not even Robert, who was a little too relieved to see the last of the "dragonspawn" dead.

With that in mind, I don't think he chose the best fighters that the North (much less, Robert's army as a whole) had to offer, he chose those companions that he felt absolutely certain he could trust to keep a secret.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think you are absolutely correct that these 7 northmen were specifically chosen for a reason other than their combat abilities.   The geography is a big hint here. 

Again, posting from a phone and can't copy, but I worked out a most intriguing connection elsewhere that I will post later if anyone is interested.

I'm definitely interested in where you're going with this, and what you're hinting at; I'm especially curious as to whether or not you think some of the skills Meera attributes to Howland played a role in him being chosen.

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Robert was injured at the Trident, but I think there were other significant reasons why this crew was chosen.

In particular, Eddard hated the way the sack of King's Landing was carried out, and Robert's willingness to accept what Tywin had ordered with Elia and her children caused a fight between the two; their relationship is still strained at whatever point it is that Eddard has his final reunion with Lyanna, as we're told that he only reconciled with Robert later over their shared grief.

My own inclination is that Eddard chose his party because he knew what he would find in Dorne: Lyanna, pregnant. What he'd just learned at King's Landing is that he couldn't trust his own allies--not even Robert, who was a little too relieved to see the last of the "dragonspawn" dead.

With that in mind, I don't think he chose the best fighters that the North (much less, Robert's army as a whole) had to offer, he chose those companions that he felt absolutely certain he could trust to keep a secret.

Well, as you know, I'm firmly of the belief that Lord Eddard didn't know of Lyanna's whereabouts at that point, but I agree that he chose his companions for personal reasons. We see this in the Trial of the Seven at Ashford, when Dunk's companions are assembled - we also see the opposite as well but it fits with Lord Eddard's character that he should go to the meeting accompanied by personal friends rather than champions.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

as he lay dying Ser Arthur revealed to to Lord Eddard for the first time that his long lost sister was still alive and at... and therefore Eddard owes him a debt of gratitude as well as regrets

With his dying breath, the fabled white knight croaked 'Star...fall...'  -- and with that, a star -- truly -- fell (not cliched at all!)

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I suspect Ned chose the 6 men most loyal to him.   Robert and Jon Arynn were not picked, maybe they were unavailable,  but I think Ned wanted people who would obey without question.   Robert and Jon Arynn being headstrong and seeing themselves as superior.

I refer to the answer I just gave, and to Matthew's point about Robert's being incapacitated. Lord Eddard did not go south with six companions, he went down with an army to raise the siege of Storm's End and fight the last battles of the war. Whatever the news or circumstances that led him to the tower, his companions were chosen from among those who were already down south with him

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

With his dying breath, the fabled white knight croaked 'Star...fall...'  -- and with that, a star -- truly -- fell (not cliched at all!)

Well its nobler than Up Yours

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Black Crow said:

Well its nobler than Up Yours

You'll have to do better than that if you want me to leave your thread...Put some poetry into it!  

[Black Crow]

Poetry - at this time of night? Its way past my bed-time, so you'll have to make do with to bed, to sleep, perchance to drea,m.

 

Good night all

[ravenous reader]

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Poetry - at this time of night? Its way past my bed-time, so you'll have to make do with to bed, to sleep, perchance to drea,m.

 

Good night all

Shakespeare is always a good choice .  Good night, sweet prince -- and I hope no dreams of freckled redheads may come...

[Melifeather]

After the tourney at Ashford Dunk and Egg set out for Dorne. Being that Dunk had the shield with the shooting star, Ashford might be another earlier parallel to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but you could view Robert's Rebellion as the real battle whereas the Harrenhal Tourney was a play battle. Therefore, Dunk and Egg's course to Dorne might also parallel Ned and Howland. Dunk and Egg set out at the end of the Hedge Knight for Dorne to look for Tanselle too Tall and to maybe see puppet shows, but by the Sworn Sword they are back again and we never learn what happened in Dorne. If I remember correctly though, didn't Dunk dig some graves? It's interesting that Egg says there's good puppet shows in Dorne. Is that supposed to be a clue for the tower of joy?

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm definitely interested in where you're going with this, and what you're hinting at; I'm especially curious as to whether or not you think some of the skills Meera attributes to Howland played a role in him being chosen.

I still cannot figure out the multiquote function on this site to copy @Feather Crystal too, but I know she's already seen this anyway.

Some time ago I was researching another topic and opted to take a closer look at the 6 men that accompanied Ned to the TOJ.  It should go without saying that this absolutely ties into PrettyPig Crackpot Theory #2,465, but I won't pollute minds with any of that - these are just the "facts" about the Magnificent Seven.

We know that all of Ned's companions are Northmen, sworn to Winterfell.  To review:

1)       Ned – from Winterfell, of course

2)      Howland Reed - the Neck

3)      William Dustin  - Barrowlands

4)      Ethan Glover  - Deepwood Motte

5)      Martyn Cassell - lands just north of Winterfell (not sure exactly where, but as vassals to the Starks they are fairly close by)

6)      Theo Wull – the mountains by Bay of Ice

7)       Mark Ryswell  - the Rills

To drive the point home, I would have you look at a map of Westeros' North, and take a good look at the locations of the lands that the representative of each house holds:      http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/The_North?file=The_North_map.png   (click image to enlarge)

A different map listing the Houses within the territories:  http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_North_Houses.png

The first takeaway is that not a one of Ned's companions comes from a house east of the Kingsroad - Manderly, Karstark, Umber, etc....not represented in the group despite strong loyalties to House Stark (at least back then).    The omission of Umber in particular gets an eyebrow-raise from me because one would think that if Ned were gathering trusted men to take to a confrontation, he would bring at least ONE of the "Jons" for brute strength, right?    Regardless, I have to wonder why some of those faithful eastern-side houses weren't part of his merry band.  

Second, look at the lands of his companions in geospatial relationship:    en masse, these lands literally form a blockade for the whole northwest.  The only area not represented to the west in this posse is that of the Stony Shore - possibly because it is sparsely inhabited by peasant fisherfolk (I don't believe there's even a northern house there at all TO represent, actually...Stony Shore may be part of Ryswell territory, I really have no idea who claims that land).   The burning question though:   why this relationship?    Why would you need to 'seal up' your defenses from the west in this manner, especially in the farthest reaches of the North where no one goes anyway?    Why would you need a walking, talking personal guarantee of the areas that make up the Westerosi version of the Bering Strait as part of your posse?

Third, look at these lands again from more of a travel or military perspective this time.    Let's say you wanted to get from far north-North to far south-North or vice versa - but you can't take the Kingsroad and you can't take a ship to the West thanks to reaving Krakens.   Let's make it even more specific and say you wanted to go between somewhere in the Neck - say, Greywater Watch - and somewhere in the uppermost North - say, the Wall.   Not sure on what route your Trip Planner will send you?    Well, have a look!    Remember to stay to the left of the yellow line:

http://imgur.com/r/gameofthrones/0UY8Z        In case it's not clear, you would pass squarely through the territories of each of these 7 houses.

For the final point, return again to that first set of trusty maps.    Of all the principal houses west of the Kingsroad, which ones don't have a member in the Ned 7?    Well, there's Tallhart - but Torrhen's Square is safely sandwiched between the Barrowlands and the Wolfswood (which can protect itself, methinks) so could be Tallhart territory is already covered by other houses and therefore presence isn't necessary.  (Recall that Bran/Jojen/Meera successfully travel along the edges of the Wolfswood on their journey north.)   However...keep looking, north and north and north again.   Up by House Glover and House Wull in the aforementioned Bering Strait.    Notice a familiar name that's missing from this list?

House Mormont.     Granted, Bear Island is out there by its lonesome, stuck in the water like the hairy stepchild it is, but nonetheless it "knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK".    So why isn't Jorah along for the TOJ ride?  Or Jeor?

With that, I'm shuffling into my tinfoil territory so won't go much further  -   but I hope this has illustrated that there is a discernible pattern to Ned's selection of men, and the mystery remains as to what that pattern means.    IMO Ned was not selecting them solely for loyalty/secrecy/companionship...he was selecting them for guaranteed safe passage through their lands.      One could almost view Ned's choices like wards - collateral, if you will.    

I for one am insanely curious to learn why House Mormont is the outlier...quite literally, a chink in a wall of Ice.    I can't wait to find out if a blue flower grew there.

 

 

 

[Lord Wraith]

13 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yup, just so.  The seed is strong is not about virility or how many black haired, blue-eyed babies Robert produced... it is about physical strength.  Just search strong and see how often it comes up in association with Robert.  This comes up with NW blacksmith when he tells Jon that Renly was the bronze sword - all show, Stannis was iron - too brittle and Robert was the true steel - In spite of using a warhammer.  Jon is the sword of course.  

Quote

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

Doesn't sound Baratheon to me. 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Doesn't sound Baratheon to me. 

Exactly so. As I said you don't set up a plot device where all Bob's bairns look like him - with very specific features = and then hide one who doesn't. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

This thread has made me realise that I have never really troubled myself too much with the question of Jon’s parentage, it clearly has some relevance to the story and I am vaguely aware of the options & theories but i’ve just never really been to bothered at forming an opinion.  So, in the interests of documenting my thoughts for the little they are worth:

 

WHAT WE KNOW OR CAN ASSUME AS FACT

At least 1 of Jon’s parents is a Stark (Whilst this can’t be guaranteed as fact it would damage the books so much, be so left field and open up the possibilities to be too endless to be assumed as anything other than fact given his looks and instant recognition as a Stark at & North of the Wall where they know much & more of Starks).

Jon has at least 1 unknown parent

Rhaegar has a baby “whose song is the song of Ice & Fire” as per the vision in the HOTU (Not sure if this can actually be considered fact)

 

CONTENDERS FOR STARK PARENTAGE

1.       Ned.   Evidence for:

Publically declared himself as the father, current Father of 5 so no known fertility issues. Means, motive & opportunity a plenty during the war.

 

Evidence against:

None Per se, the only evidence against being a more likely candidate if one exists.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Ned is the father?

Why the secrecy about the mother to his wife.  By modern standards he dishonoured her but In Westeros is commonplace and borderline acceptable.

Who was Lyannas child? She clearly had one who then goes off grid if Jon is Neds bastard and not hers . What is the meaning of Promise me if there is no child of Lyannas involved?

Why the blue the rose imagery associated with Jon at the wall, this is an allusion to Lyanna not Ned.

What is the narrative purpose of Ned being the father.  Jon is marked out from the start of GOT as somehow different & special, if he really is just a bastard then what storyline purpose does it serve other than misdirection.

Who does that leave as contenders for the baby in Dany’s vision, the one whose song is Ice & Fire.

 

2.       Lyanna.  Evidence for:

References to bed of blood can only reasonably be assumed to mean she gave birth given how often and in what context this Phrase is used in the books so its my belief that she definitely had a child,  whether or not that child is Jon.

 

Evidence against:

JNR has a fine list including, Lack of communication with the outside world, timing issues, and If Rhaegar is the alleged father issue with partner selection.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother?

Answers for the questions posed by the evidence against.

Why does Ned lie about Wylla, Catelyn would have been much more accepting of Lyannaa true born son, why did the honerable New allow Jon to be scorned and at times mistreated by Cat when a simple clarification would have solved it at a stroke.

 

3.       Benjen at a push? (Not sure of the logistics on this one and may need confirmation or denial from a more learned contributor.)

Evidence for: Not much, Stark looks, the interest he shows in Jon when visiting Winterfell.

 

Evidence against:  Not sure on the means, motive, opportunity for Benjen and there is his NW Oath but Oathes are often broken.

 

What questions do we need to answer if Benjen is the Father?

Some the same as for Ned.  Why the mystery, Blue rose imagery. Plus...

Why would Ned need to lie (protect Benjens position in the watch?)

What are the logistics for Ned returning from Wall with Benjens bastard?

 

WHO ARE THE CONTENDERS FOR MYSTERY PARENT?

If the father is Ned:

 

1 a. Wylla.

Evidence for: It has been stated in private to his best friend & king of the realm. Ticks all of the means, motive & opportunity boxes.

 

Evidence against:  None in truth.

 

Questions we need to answer if Ned is the Father & Wylla is the mother:

Why the Blue rose symbology for Jon & PTWP  / His is the SOIAF prophecy in HOTU.

Why according to GRRM would more need to be revealed about Jons parentage later in the books if it’s already all been revealed.

 

1b. Ashara Dayne.

Evidence for: Ned fancies her, the visit to starfall.

 

Evidence against: Nothing specific.

 

Questions we need to answer if Ned is the Father & Ashara Dayne is the mother:

Why the Blue rose symbology for Jon & PTWP  / his is the SOIAF prophecy in HOTU.

 

If Lyanna is the mother:

 

2 a. Rhaegar.

 

Evidence for:

Tourney at Harrenhal behaviour, He clearly fancied her. 

His is the song of Ice & Fire prophecy implying Stark + Targaryen mix and R+L being the only viable option for this.

Lyanna bed of blood symbology – she clearly had a child who we need to account for if it isn’t Jon.

“Promise me Ned” speech within the context of bed of blood clearly is something to do with the protecting the child.  Of the candidates for father the most protection required would be for a child of Rhaegars.

 

Evidence against: Jon has no discernible Targaryen features.  It’s difficult to draw out any specific parallels to Rhaegar in terms of interests or temperament.

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Rhaegar is the Father:

Nothing in terms of plotline – it makes the most sense & logic for all of the blue rose, Song of Ice & Fire symbology. However this would lead to perhaps the biggest question of all – would GRRM really be this obvious.  His books are anything but obvious and i’ve already been accused by at least 2 Heretics of having a Disney outlook.

 

2 b. Robert Baratheon

 

Evidence for: Love / Obsession. History of womanising.

 

Evidence against: Lack of Baratheon features (apart from alleged Baratheon super strength)

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & Robert is the Father:

Why would Ned need to lie to Robert who is known to treat his bastards well and has already acknowledged Edric Storm due to his high birth?

With the revelation that the Lannister kids are not his Robert could in theory legitimise Jon as his true heir to the 7 kingdoms and thus it also weakens the Trope busting element of it not being Rhaegar.

Robert never mentions being with Lyanna,  Ned never mentions Robert being with Lyanna, do we really think that when your best mate bangs your sister you don’t get to find out one way or another?

 

2 c. One of the Kingsguard (I think Feather Crystal has suggested this as a possibility as part of the inversion theory? edit actually I don't think you did, I think you said hurt/injured and I misinterpreted apologies )

 

Evidence for: None.

 

Evidence against: Oath, assumed honourable character of the 3 KG in question. The fact that for the KG to have done it implies that Lyanna was at TOJ which means they were all there on order of Rhaegar so the KG would have to either Rape or have consensual sex with Prince Rhaegars captive.  Way too much of a stretch IMHO

 

Questions we need to answer if Lyanna is the Mother & one of the KG is the Father:

What is Narrative purpose for Jon’s future story?

Undermines all of the Blue rose etc symbology for Jon.

Why would GRRM have a secret parent but then present zero evidence of who it might be and have it be some essentially randon off screen character?

 

3.  If Benjen if father.

Not sure really where to start her. I don’t have enough knowledge to even know if its feasible let alone have a list of maternal candidates so i’m going to dismiss this out of hand and hopefully I can be advised if I am wrong to do so.

 

CONCLUSIONS:

Hmmmm so where do this leave me? I’m still not sure.

If I take an Occams Razor approach to this then the theory that requires the least things to be true is Ned + Wylla.  However that leave so much unanswered about Jon & all of the symbology around him, the prophecies and the promise me speech that I have question marks.

 

If I look at what parentage best answers the most unanswered questions or perhaps leaves the least unanswered questions It seems to be the lamentable R+L=J. I’m afraid I disagree with JNR here in that there appears to be little in the way of actual factual challenge to the possibility of this  being true, the only real fly in the ointment being that we would be disappointed in GRRM if he had this as the answer.

 

Ned + Ashara seems at least plausible but less likely than both Ned + Wylla & Lyanna + Rhaegar.

All of the other options strike me as either having no evidence to support or overwhelming evidence against that I don’t think any of them are feasible so I think my summary in terms of likely hood is

 

= 1^st Ned + Wylla / Rhaegar + Lyanna but for completely different reasons.

3^rd Ned + Ashara

 

DQed Ned + Random, Lyanna + Robert,  Lyann + KG, Lyanna + Random, Benjen + Anyone.

 

Apologies to Black Crow as the intention of this thread isn’t to discuss Jons parentage but rather the TOJ scene so now I have this out of my system I will try to get back on topic

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

On 2017-6-12 at 11:22 PM, JNR said:

Actually, la petite mort would be a double entrendre; that's why I suggested it. But Brienne never has any orgasms that we've heard of.  Nor any literal deaths.  She just doesn't fit the premise, because swordplay is not orgasm and it's not death either.

Hey, if people like the idea that freckles = death in these books, that's cool with me.  Similarly, if I say "But there are all these freckled people who don't die in any conceivable sense," that should be cool with them.

Re ambiguity... I'm the guy who keeps saying GRRM's books are loaded with ambiguity.  You're the guy who has a theory about ancient and original Others, never yet seen in canon, who will reveal themselves with ice spiders. 

Well, if so, that would violate conventional RLJ... in the timeline of which Brandon gets killed some three months or more before she got knocked up... and hence would be a bigger problem than it's trying to solve, if the idea is to support RLJ.

That's true, he may simply have screwed up. 

However, conventional RLJ constantly assumes he did not screw up.  See above answer, about the detailed timeline in which among other things, RLJ true believers are sure that Lyanna became knocked up three months into the war, that Jon was born around the time of the Sack, that all characters acted at all times based on information available to them then, etc.

In short, the theory of RLJ is founded on the idea that GRRM went about things carefully and only rarely made mistakes.   And in that, I actually think they're quite right! 

Well, bear in mind we're going by the RLJ timeline here.  It says:

1. She and Rhaegar disappear

2. Time passes, as Brandon and Rickard both travel to the Red Keep (Brandon far more quickly), and then Brandon and Rickard are killed

3. More time passes as Aerys calls for Ned and Robert, and Arryn calls banners.  The Rebellion begins.

4. At this time, Ned begins slowly to make his way to Winterfell to call his own banners... eventually proceeding over the mountains and across the Bite and across the North and finally getting home

5. About this time, finally! -- Lyanna becomes knocked up -- fully three months into the war -- so that Jon can be born nine months later, when the war has raged for about a year, and ends in the Sack.  Ergo the firm RLJ belief that Jon was born about the time of the Sack.

So, unless we imagine that Lyanna is totally incommunicado with the entire world, and oblivious to all that is going on, by her own design... she had several months to learn about Aerys, her father, and her brother.  And if she still chose to get knocked up at that time, just dismissing the many huge problems with that idea, I would be, let's just say, quite surprised.  I think highly of Lyanna's brainpower.

Of course, like some, we can just throw realism to the winds, and imagine Lyanna had interest only in hiding from the world with Rhaegar, and all she did for six months or more was immerse herself in constant love and sex, never once thinking of anything else... never communicating with anyone... etc.  Of course we can.

If we do, though, I think that would be what Wolfmaid would call, quite righly, a Disney fairy tale.  It's even mocked as such in ACOK:

Perhaps GRRM has actually written such a fairy tale/song.  It could be. 

Or perhaps, as he constantly reminds us, life is not a song.  

I side with Wolfmaid in believing (among many other things) that the fairy tale is just not even close to GRRM's style, and in believing that TWOW will tell us something much more plausible and fitting.

I wrote a great reply to this yesterday but clearly didn't press submit correctly.

it went roughly along the lines of

a) your basic premise is that it's absurd to think that Lyanna didn't communicate with the outside world and when I provided what I believe is a plausible reason not to, The safety of herself and child, you have just said "it's absurd to think" again but in more words, rather that address the point about fear for her child.

I don't think I'm presenting a Disney interpretation at all. I think Lyanna desperately torn between wanting to talk to her family but knowing that to do so endangers her own and her sons life is just the sort if compromising choice that is more GRRM than little mermaid. It's you that's chosen a black and white interpretation, that the only possible alternative to contacting her family is that she is engaged in 24 hr sex sessions and oblivious to the outside world. 

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

On 2017-6-9 at 0:07 PM, Feather Crystal said:

There are links in my signature on the bottom of my posts to some of my theories, but if you've been following the Heresy thread I penned the OP for Heresy 192 The Wheel of Time. As detailed as that thread was, it is always evolving. BC's post upthread that it is his belief that the series is primarily about the Starks and how Jon or "Bael's son" becomes Lord of Winterfell. I think that is a big part, but I think Bran's position as greenseer is actually even over all that. I see the Children and the greenseers as caretakers of planetos, manipulators of nature, operators of the wheel of time, and connected to the old gods with Bran now in a god-like position.

Hi Feather Crystal, thanks for the link to H192. I've read the OP and a little Of The thread. Very interesting and a very cool hypothesis. 

I think where there is a known current event that is an inversion of a known past event the theory is great. 

Where there is a known past event the theory can be helpful in looking at an as yet unknow future event though an inverted lens to better understand what may happen.

I think where there is weakness is using a known current event to create an inverted past event to account for it to fit the theory which I think is what you have done with the suggestion that one if the KG may have hurt Lyanna. This just feels a bit too reaching for me with nothing to back it up from the books but I am a fairly simple creature so like easy explanations.

[wolfmaid7]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so. As I said you don't set up a plot device where all Bob's bairns look like him - with very specific features = and then hide one who doesn't. 

Ummm yes you do seeing as a plot device is about moving the story forward.It in itself may not be be more important than for that purpose.

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Doesn't sound Baratheon to me. 

Being immensely strong and hot tempered doesn't sound Baratheon??? Hmmm.

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I still cannot figure out the multiquote function on this site to copy @Feather Crystal too, but I know she's already seen this anyway.

Some time ago I was researching another topic and opted to take a closer look at the 6 men that accompanied Ned to the TOJ.  It should go without saying that this absolutely ties into PrettyPig Crackpot Theory #2,465, but I won't pollute minds with any of that - these are just the "facts" about the Magnificent Seven.

We know that all of Ned's companions are Northmen, sworn to Winterfell.  To review:

1)       Ned – from Winterfell, of course

2)      Howland Reed - the Neck

3)      William Dustin  - Barrowlands

4)      Ethan Glover  - Deepwood Motte

5)      Martyn Cassell - lands just north of Winterfell (not sure exactly where, but as vassals to the Starks they are fairly close by)

6)      Theo Wull – the mountains by Bay of Ice

7)       Mark Ryswell  - the Rills

To drive the point home, I would have you look at a map of Westeros' North, and take a good look at the locations of the lands that the representative of each house holds:      http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/The_North?file=The_North_map.png   (click image to enlarge)

A different map listing the Houses within the territories:  http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_North_Houses.png

The first takeaway is that not a one of Ned's companions comes from a house east of the Kingsroad - Manderly, Karstark, Umber, etc....not represented in the group despite strong loyalties to House Stark (at least back then).    The omission of Umber in particular gets an eyebrow-raise from me because one would think that if Ned were gathering trusted men to take to a confrontation, he would bring at least ONE of the "Jons" for brute strength, right?    Regardless, I have to wonder why some of those faithful eastern-side houses weren't part of his merry band.  

Second, look at the lands of his companions in geospatial relationship:    en masse, these lands literally form a blockade for the whole northwest.  The only area not represented to the west in this posse is that of the Stony Shore - possibly because it is sparsely inhabited by peasant fisherfolk (I don't believe there's even a northern house there at all TO represent, actually...Stony Shore may be part of Ryswell territory, I really have no idea who claims that land).   The burning question though:   why this relationship?    Why would you need to 'seal up' your defenses from the west in this manner, especially in the farthest reaches of the North where no one goes anyway?    Why would you need a walking, talking personal guarantee of the areas that make up the Westerosi version of the Bering Strait as part of your posse?

Third, look at these lands again from more of a travel or military perspective this time.    Let's say you wanted to get from far north-North to far south-North or vice versa - but you can't take the Kingsroad and you can't take a ship to the West thanks to reaving Krakens.   Let's make it even more specific and say you wanted to go between somewhere in the Neck - say, Greywater Watch - and somewhere in the uppermost North - say, the Wall.   Not sure on what route your Trip Planner will send you?    Well, have a look!    Remember to stay to the left of the yellow line:

http://imgur.com/r/gameofthrones/0UY8Z        In case it's not clear, you would pass squarely through the territories of each of these 7 houses.

For the final point, return again to that first set of trusty maps.    Of all the principal houses west of the Kingsroad, which ones don't have a member in the Ned 7?    Well, there's Tallhart - but Torrhen's Square is safely sandwiched between the Barrowlands and the Wolfswood (which can protect itself, methinks) so could be Tallhart territory is already covered by other houses and therefore presence isn't necessary.  (Recall that Bran/Jojen/Meera successfully travel along the edges of the Wolfswood on their journey north.)   However...keep looking, north and north and north again.   Up by House Glover and House Wull in the aforementioned Bering Strait.    Notice a familiar name that's missing from this list?

House Mormont.     Granted, Bear Island is out there by its lonesome, stuck in the water like the hairy stepchild it is, but nonetheless it "knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK".    So why isn't Jorah along for the TOJ ride?  Or Jeor?

With that, I'm shuffling into my tinfoil territory so won't go much further  -   but I hope this has illustrated that there is a discernible pattern to Ned's selection of men, and the mystery remains as to what that pattern means.    IMO Ned was not selecting them solely for loyalty/secrecy/companionship...he was selecting them for guaranteed safe passage through their lands.      One could almost view Ned's choices like wards - collateral, if you will.    

I for one am insanely curious to learn why House Mormont is the outlier...quite literally, a chink in a wall of Ice.    I can't wait to find out if a blue flower grew there.

 

 

 

Oh yes, I do recall this discussion, but I guess the ramifications didn't find home (for me) the first time. This version you've posted here is much more easily understood. I agree that the selection of men is significant, and I have to say my mind runs immediately to "wards" which I suspect have been manipulated by (a) greenseer(s) in an attempt to manipulate the future.

Going back to the basic premise of the inversion theory that one of the wards works like a gigantic mirror hanging over the Wall and imagine seeing all of Westeros in it's reflection, I can't help but make a connection to your north-western ward that Ned's men represent. If it is true, like I suspect, that east is now west and north is south, your observation makes it appear that Ned recognized, or at the very least felt intuitively, that  the warding had changed. His western band of northmen would be under the effects of this east is now west change. Whatever happened to the Houses on the east side of Westeros in the past will now apply to the Houses in the west. I hope that what I'm saying isn't only making sense to me! HAR! I know you, Pretty Pig, are pretty well versed in what I'm trying to describe, but for those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sure this sounds like nonsense. Hang in there and read on. I'll try to clarify.

We've all read how the Wall is one of the great hinges of the world. So what exactly is a hinge? A hinge is typically made of metal and it secures a door in a frame so that the door can open and close. Therefore if the Wall is a hinge it's holding a door or multiple doors, and the doors are warded with magic spells that are woven to hold the door(s) in place. If one or more wards are removed or untangled, then theoretically a door could be opened. With regards to the inversion theory I visually imagine a door that flips east and west. Recall what Quaithe told Dany:

Dany’s wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. “Where would you have me go?” she asked. 

   “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

In other words, if she wants to navigate this mirrored reality she has to do the opposite of whatever her natural inclination is. 

Getting back to your observation, Pretty Pig, Ned brought his western-northmen to help him navigate the mirrored landscape, because not only have east and west changed places, north and south have switched too. He was navigating the south as if he was traveling in the north, and the tower of joy should have a mirrored northern twin.
 

1 hour ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Hi Feather Crystal, thanks for the link to H192. I've read the OP and a little Of The thread. Very interesting and a very cool hypothesis. 

I think where there is a known current event that is an inversion of a known past event the theory is great. 

Where there is a known past event the theory can be helpful in looking at an as yet unknow future event though an inverted lens to better understand what may happen.

I think where there is weakness is using a known current event to create an inverted past event to account for it to fit the theory which I think is what you have done with the suggestion that one if the KG may have hurt Lyanna. This just feels a bit too reaching for me with nothing to back it up from the books but I am a fairly simple creature so like easy explanations.

Thank you for taking the time to read it! I freely admit that using known current events to interpret the past is purely theoretical, because I cannot prove it unless it's revealed in a future book, but I think I'm offering compelling evidence.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, ReturnOfCaponBreath said:

Apologies to Black Crow as the intention of this thread isn’t to discuss Jons parentage but rather the TOJ scene so now I have this out of my system I will try to get back on topic

Yes, we've all seen enough on Jon's parents and some interesting things on TOJ have been said, so I hope to see the conversation go that direction.   Lyanna,  Ashara and Wylla all potentially play a part in that tale, but if Robert is the father,  that doesn't seem relevant to TOJ.

[ReturnOfCaponBreath]

Some TOJ questions I have mixing up a few Of The current themes being discussed.

If Lyanna isn't at TOJ:

Why is she in Neds recollection, what has made people think they were 2 separate events?

Why has Ned gone there at all? If it's a KG hunting expedition why go himself? Why take few enough men that victory isn't assured? We see in GOT when he wants Clegane hunted he sends Dondarrion + 70 men I think (50 city watch + 20 household guard) so it's not in keeping with his known military form.

If it's a one arranged meet / reencounter. 

Why? 

Why uneven sides?

If it's a trial of 7:

What is the crime?

Who is the subject? 1 or all Of The KG. 

Is there even such a thing as a trial if 7? There is trial by combat which is 1 champ Vs another or the accused Vs a champ do we see or hear reference to a trial of 7 anywhere in the books?

Why would Staunch Northerner Ned care about anything to do with the 7?