Cat is definitely the heir named in Robb's will

[ravenous reader]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb wanted Sansa replaced as his heir

Yes.  But I would go further: he specifically wanted Jon as his heir!  In order to effect his wishes, he had to disqualify Sansa.

5 hours ago, DutchArya said:

Cat agreed with Robb and that the North should never pass to Sansa.

Quote

Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya?

Cat did not agree that the North should never pass to Sansa; she agreed that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp!  There is a subtle but important difference.  Robb believes Arya is dead -- making her his heir would be far too risky a prospect.  I agree, however, that it's odd that she's not mentioned explicitly in his argument to the lords. 

 

@40 Thousand Skeletons Perhaps the rhetorical 'trap' employed by Robb against Cat involved the selfsame one employed by Littlefinger against her twice over; firstly, when he sent the letter via Lysa to Cat, designed to play upon her prejudices towards the Lannisters (later we find out the Starks unfairly accused the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn), and secondly, when he fingered Tyrion as the owner of the dagger used in Bran's assassination attempt (again, we later find out this is untrue), which resulted in the most disastrous decision of all, her emotional unilateral impulse to take Tyrion prisoner and haul him off to Lysa of all people, which really got the war between Starks and Lannisters going in earnest.  

Robb, realizing that there were only really two available choices as his heir -- Sansa or Jon (as they were the only two of the siblings still reasonably believed by Robb and his mother to be alive at this point) -- immediately set out at the top of the argument to disqualify Sansa (whom he'd anticipated would be his mother's choice) on the basis of her marriage to Tyrion, knowing that Cat would not be able to resist automatically acting out her vehement hatred of the Lannisters (which is stronger even than her hatred of Jon, or love of Sansa for that matter)! Once Sansa had been eliminated as a viable prospect, that only left Jon.  

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"Tyrion always backed me in the lists," Jaime said, "but that day Ser Loras unhorsed me. A mischance, I took the boy too lightly, but no matter. Whatever my brother wagered, he lost . . . but that dagger did change hands, I recall it now. Robert showed it to me that night at the feast. His Grace loved to salt my wounds, especially when drunk. And when was he not drunk?"

Tyrion Lannister had said much the same thing as they rode through the Mountains of the Moon, Catelyn remembered. She had refused to believe him. Petyr had sworn otherwise, Petyr who had been almost a brother, Petyr who loved her so much he fought a duel for her hand . . . and yet if Jaime and Tyrion told the same tale, what did that mean? The brothers had not seen each other since departing Winterfell more than a year ago. "Are you trying to deceive me?" Somewhere there was a trap here.

The 'trap' Cat keeps falling for is her own prejudice.  She believes Petyr over Tyrion and Jaime, on the basis that Petyr is 'more than a brother' to her (therefore 'family') whereas the others are hated Lannisters and therefore couldn't possibly be telling the truth.  This is a logical fallacy.

Let's look at the passage in question again:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

"I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command." Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. "One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her.

So, there's the trap.  Robb rules out all the possible heirs (although curiously not mentioning Arya among the presumed dead), concluding with the elimination of the eldest trueborn heir on the basis of her marriage to a Lannister.  What is Cat supposed to say to that?  She can hardly argue the case in front of the northern lords for her Lannister daughter inheriting the north after she's just caused a scandal in the ranks by releasing Jaime Lannister (not to mention her botched kidnapping of Tyrion Lannister)!  She would come across as a Lannister sympathizer and traitor.  After highlighting that the only choice for his heir is between a woman married to a Lannister and a man who happens to be a bastard, he knew the northern Lords like Cat would act on their prejudices, going with Jon as the lesser of the two evils!

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

She was referring to the figurative trap in which Robb had "just caught her". So there must have been some sort of deception on Robb's part based on Cat's figurative use of the word "trap". Just like Robb is planning on deceiving the defenders at Moat Cailin by pretending to launch a full-on assault from the south by having the Greatjon attack ferociously up the causeway while his other forces ambush the ironmen from the rear.

Robb's first choice for heir was always Jon (as revealed by Grey Wind, from whom we may infer the expression of Robb's truest deepest heart)-- but based on people's prejudices against bastards, he knew that a direct approach simply stating his choice upfront would not work.  So instead of attacking directly, he pretends to attack from another direction, emphasizing his misgivings over his trueborn siblings and how 'difficult' the choice has been for him, leaving him only the choice 'between the lesser of the remaining evils', which is a feint.  The choice was neither 'long nor hard' for him; he just had to fool other people into thinking it was, taking them step-by-step through the 'complicated' algorithm, so that they would ultimately go along with his choice of a bastard which he knew would be difficult to swallow.  But in the hierarchy of prejudices, bastard trumps death and Lannisters every time! 

Think of the analogy -- What is the purpose of attacking from the south?  It's a distraction from the 'real attack', right?  The real thrust of Robb's argument is not that the others are unsuitable or unworthy heirs, but that Jon is the most suitable and indeed worthy-- which is however something he can never voice outright without risking censure.  Despite their rivalry, Jon is his dearest best friend, arguably his closest brother, and the one he's secretly looked up to his whole life, despite his mother's poisonous attitude and his father's passive collusion with her agenda.  He has to keep the force of his true feelings a secret and cater to the prejudices of others, a sneaky way of manoeuvring which he probably learnt the way of by long acquaintance with negotiating the quagmire of the fraught dynamics in his own family (not unlike finding a way through the treacherous bogs of the Neck).  

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Like I said to other people making this argument, that just isn't much of a trap. Robb "trapped" Cat into not objecting out loud in the meeting? That seems quite unnecessary. Everyone should already assume Cat would never support the choice of Jon as heir. Why should Robb care if she objects in the meeting? She objected about being sent to Seagard, and it wasn't a problem. And again, if preventing vocal objections was Robb's goal here, why wouldn't he also talk to her about being sent to Seagard beforehand? The logic there is inconsistent.

Robb's goal is to get his way, which is Jon as his heir.  He trapped Cat by outwitting her, presenting a process of elimination which never was.  Robb got what he wanted; Cat didn't.  Once the signatures are affixed to the document, Cat has essentially lost Winterfell to her archnemesis Jon and by extension to his secret mother, whom she has detested with a passion and tried to thwart all her life.  

If that explanation of 'trap' still fails to satisfy you (which I surmise it won't ), perhaps you could look into Robb's remark that a person should never keep all his treasures in one purse making it easier for someone to rob him ('Robb' him..?!).  That sounds a bit like having a trick up ones sleeve (Robb's strategy here) instead of wearing ones heart on ones sleeve (Cat)!

Quote

"I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command." Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. "One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I've thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision."

A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he'd planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he'd just caught her.

 

[snow is the man]

She doesn't have stark blood. And he legitamized jon snow so he could be the heir

[kissdbyfire]

@40 Thousand Skeletons, there's something else I keep forgetting to bring up in my replies to you about Robb's decision to send Cat to Seagard... You said it was odd that Robb never discussed his decision with Cat when they have their private convo. But I think Robb may not have made that decision yet when they're talking. It's possible he only decides to send her to Seagard after they talk about who will be his heir and he realises Cat won't be talked into supporting Jon. 

“He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”
“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”
“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . . ”
“ . . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”
“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.”

So, it seems to me Robb's purpose here is to try and reason with Cat. And failing that, to have her vent her displeasure in private, so as to not undermine his authority in front of his bannermen.

He knows she doesn't like Jon but hopes he can convince her that Jon is not only the best choice but the only viable choice. Once he realises he won't be able to win Cat's support, he ends the conversation saying he doesn't need her support etc. It's entirely possible that Robb only made the decision to send her to Seagard afterwards. 

Another argument against Robb having named Cat is that, by the end of the chapter, the document is not in view of the characters yet. There's not enough time between Robb grabbing the parchment and the end of the chapter - and Cat's thoughts about having fallen into a trap - for those in the tent, including Cat, to have read it. But because Robb was so adamant about naming Jon [and her own general sense of dread], plus the whole thing w/ being sent to Seagard and "I'm the king I can do what I want", Cat simply assumes (correctly) that Robb named Jon. 

“I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command.” Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment.”One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”
A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he’d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he’d just caught her.

[Traverys]

On 6/8/2017 at 0:24 AM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Hilarious! 

This adds to the story how? Rather than taking away? 

How dare you suggest GRRM focuses on thematic throughlines instead of a predisposition towards sensationalism at all possible moments. The latter is why his series is popular, certainly not because of the former.

[The Mother of The Others]

Sounds like you guys have got it figured out.    It's a waste of time to award winterfell to a useful character though.   Broken stones albatross that it is.    Cat is a much better match for 'Fell as it currently "stands" (or doesn't).    And she's a better match for the Others.   But realistically Robb was being human political and named Jon, .....who probably won't spend any time at his new seat?  Use it as a stepping stone to skip over for something better, ala Baelish.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

17 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Along the way, he concludes that he must make sure Winterfell has an heir should anything happen to him, and over Catelyn's objections legitimizes Jon Snow and names him his heir ... He signs the decree naming Jon his heir, then sends Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont on longships to seek out the crannogmen and prepare them for the coming battle.

(A World of Ice and Fire app, Robb Stark)

The app is not canon. It was written mostly by Elio and Linda, the same people who think the idea of Tywin being poisoned by Oberyn is absurd, and the app has information they have only assumed to be true, such as the quote you referenced. There have been mistakes corrected before.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, snow is the man said:

She doesn't have stark blood. And he legitamized jon snow so he could be the heir

oh damn, I didn't think of that. case closed, I retract my OP!!

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Traverys said:

How dare you suggest GRRM focuses on thematic throughlines instead of a predisposition towards sensationalism at all possible moments. The latter is why his series is popular, certainly not because of the former.

as always, a perfect characterization of my OP, Traverys . I obviously think the story is about sensationalism at all possible moments, and that's exactly how I came up with this theory! In fact, I've never even read ASOIAF, I just go on the forum, and watch youtube theories, and come up with tinfoil, because I like to be a giant troll in my spare time

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@40 Thousand Skeletons, there's something else I keep forgetting to bring up in my replies to you about Robb's decision to send Cat to Seagard... You said it was odd that Robb never discussed his decision with Cat when they have their private convo. But I think Robb may not have made that decision yet when they're talking. It's possible he only decides to send her to Seagard after they talk about who will be his heir and he realises Cat won't be talked into supporting Jon. 

“He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”
“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”
“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”
“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”
“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”
Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”
“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . . ”
“ . . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”
“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this . . . this folly. Do not ask it.”
“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.”

So, it seems to me Robb's purpose here is to try and reason with Cat. And failing that, to have her vent her displeasure in private, so as to not undermine his authority in front of his bannermen.

He knows she doesn't like Jon but hopes he can convince her that Jon is not only the best choice but the only viable choice. Once he realises he won't be able to win Cat's support, he ends the conversation saying he doesn't need her support etc. It's entirely possible that Robb only made the decision to send her to Seagard afterwards. 

Another argument against Robb having named Cat is that, by the end of the chapter, the document is not in view of the characters yet. There's not enough time between Robb grabbing the parchment and the end of the chapter - and Cat's thoughts about having fallen into a trap - for those in the tent, including Cat, to have read it. But because Robb was so adamant about naming Jon [and her own general sense of dread], plus the whole thing w/ being sent to Seagard and "I'm the king I can do what I want", Cat simply assumes (correctly) that Robb named Jon. 

“I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command.” Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment.”One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”
A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he’d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he’d just caught her.

I don't think Robb's purpose was to try to reason with Cat. As I outlined in the OP, I think he correctly anticipated 100% of the things Cat would say and that their conversation went exactly as planned, because it was all part of the trap. But that aspect is irrelevant to the point about keeping Seagard a secret from Cat. Because regardless of whether or not Robb had yet decided she was going to Seagard, at some point he did make that decision and shared it with everyone except for Cat. So I wonder, why did he keep it a secret from her? Unless it is connected to her also being named heir, I don't see any good reason not to tell her whenever he told everyone else. Just to clarify, I actually agree that Robb may not have decided about Seagard at the time of their heir convo, but it's irrelevant. He had plenty of time to tell her before the meeting, since obviously he had enough time to tell everyone else.

I think it is implied from the way it is written that Cat read the name of the person named as heir before thinking that last line. Remember, George is not afraid to jump ahead through time between sentences. For all we know, an hour could have passed in between the words "my decision" and "A king indeed". I'm sure it didn't actually take an hour, but it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that enough time passed (literally like 5 seconds) for Robb to place the parchment on the table and Cat to read the name of his heir, and that GRRM didn't feel the need to explicitly describe that action. I definitely don't count it as a piece of evidence against my own theory.  

Well, she didn't raise hell about being sent to Seagard, and to be honest she didn't really complain. Upon hearing the news, she asks to be sent to Riverrun instead. And when Robb explains why he doesn't want her there, she remains quiet and accepts his decision. That's very different from voicing misgivings about something as crucial as the line of succession and therefore questioning Robb's ability to lead and make decisions on his own. 

I would argue that the words "You would make me a prisoner" qualifies as complaining. It is definitely not full acceptance of Robb's decision and the other Lords even try to help convince her, because she is visibly angered by the decision. But yes, I agree that would be different from questioning the line of succession, which is much more important.

But I don't think it would reflect poorly on Robb in the sense you are implying if Cat did complain about naming Jon as heir. Cat obviously has a huge bias in the matter. If she complained loudly or vehemently, the other Lords would probably say to themselves, yeah that makes sense that she would be pissed off about another woman's child getting WF. I don't see how it would detract from Robb's leadership or undermine his decision in any meaningful way.

The bottom line is that the best thing Robb could do to make this meeting go smoothly would be to decide who his heir is and inform all the other Lords individually before the meeting. That way by the time they are signing the document, no one will voice any objections. And it appears that Robb did precisely this, informing everyone that Cat would be his heir and sent to Seagard for protection. With all the other Lords on his side already, and their previous conversation in which Cat declared she would support Robb in any decision other than naming Jon as his heir, she was trapped into supporting herself as heir. She can't argue that the other Lords won't support it, because they are all simultaneously declaring their support right in front of her.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes.  But I would go further: he specifically wanted Jon as his heir!  In order to effect his wishes, he had to disqualify Sansa.

Cat did not agree that the North should never pass to Sansa; she agreed that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp!  There is a subtle but important difference.  Robb believes Arya is dead -- making her his heir would be far too risky a prospect.  I agree, however, that it's odd that she's not mentioned explicitly in his argument to the lords. 

 

@40 Thousand Skeletons Perhaps the rhetorical 'trap' employed by Robb against Cat involved the selfsame one employed by Littlefinger against her twice over; firstly, when he sent the letter via Lysa to Cat, designed to play upon her prejudices towards the Lannisters (later we find out the Starks unfairly accused the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn), and secondly, when he fingered Tyrion as the owner of the dagger used in Bran's assassination attempt (again, we later find out this is untrue), which resulted in the most disastrous decision of all, her emotional unilateral impulse to take Tyrion prisoner and haul him off to Lysa of all people, which really got the war between Starks and Lannisters going in earnest.  

Robb, realizing that there were only really two available choices as his heir -- Sansa or Jon (as they were the only two of the siblings still reasonably believed by Robb and his mother to be alive at this point) -- immediately set out at the top of the argument to disqualify Sansa (whom he'd anticipated would be his mother's choice) on the basis of her marriage to Tyrion, knowing that Cat would not be able to resist automatically acting out her vehement hatred of the Lannisters (which is stronger even than her hatred of Jon, or love of Sansa for that matter)! Once Sansa had been eliminated as a viable prospect, that only left Jon.  

The 'trap' Cat keeps falling for is her own prejudice.  She believes Petyr over Tyrion and Jaime, on the basis that Petyr is 'more than a brother' to her (therefore 'family') whereas the others are hated Lannisters and therefore couldn't possibly be telling the truth.  This is a logical fallacy.

Let's look at the passage in question again:

So, there's the trap.  Robb rules out all the possible heirs (although curiously not mentioning Arya among the presumed dead), concluding with the elimination of the eldest trueborn heir on the basis of her marriage to a Lannister.  What is Cat supposed to say to that?  She can hardly argue the case in front of the northern lords for her Lannister daughter inheriting the north after she's just caused a scandal in the ranks by releasing Jaime Lannister (not to mention her botched kidnapping of Tyrion Lannister)!  She would come across as a Lannister sympathizer and traitor.  After highlighting that the only choice for his heir is between a woman married to a Lannister and a man who happens to be a bastard, he knew the northern Lords like Cat would act on their prejudices, going with Jon as the lesser of the two evils!

Robb's first choice for heir was always Jon (as revealed by Grey Wind, from whom we may infer the expression of Robb's truest deepest heart)-- but based on people's prejudices against bastards, he knew that a direct approach simply stating his choice upfront would not work.  So instead of attacking directly, he pretends to attack from another direction, emphasizing his misgivings over his trueborn siblings and how 'difficult' the choice has been for him, leaving him only the choice 'between the lesser of the remaining evils', which is a feint.  The choice was neither 'long nor hard' for him; he just had to fool other people into thinking it was, taking them step-by-step through the 'complicated' algorithm, so that they would ultimately go along with his choice of a bastard which he knew would be difficult to swallow.  But in the hierarchy of prejudices, bastard trumps death and Lannisters every time! 

Think of the analogy -- What is the purpose of attacking from the south?  It's a distraction from the 'real attack', right?  The real thrust of Robb's argument is not that the others are unsuitable or unworthy heirs, but that Jon is the most suitable and indeed worthy-- which is however something he can never voice outright without risking censure.  Despite their rivalry, Jon is his dearest best friend, arguably his closest brother, and the one he's secretly looked up to his whole life, despite his mother's poisonous attitude and his father's passive collusion with her agenda.  He has to keep the force of his true feelings a secret and cater to the prejudices of others, a sneaky way of manoeuvring which he probably learnt the way of by long acquaintance with negotiating the quagmire of the fraught dynamics in his own family (not unlike finding a way through the treacherous bogs of the Neck).  

Robb's goal is to get his way, which is Jon as his heir.  He trapped Cat by outwitting her, presenting a process of elimination which never was.  Robb got what he wanted; Cat didn't.  Once the signatures are affixed to the document, Cat has essentially lost Winterfell to her archnemesis Jon and by extension to his secret mother, whom she has detested with a passion and tried to thwart all her life.  

If that explanation of 'trap' still fails to satisfy you (which I surmise it won't ), perhaps you could look into Robb's remark that a person should never keep all his treasures in one purse making it easier for someone to rob him ('Robb' him..?!).  That sounds a bit like having a trick up ones sleeve (Robb's strategy here) instead of wearing ones heart on ones sleeve (Cat)!

Mmmmmm... I'm not buying your core argument at all here. You are saying that without their earlier conversation, Robb ran the risk of having Cat voice support for Tyrion inheriting Winterfell via Sansa in the meeting? Cat was never going to do that. Why would Robb assume that Sansa/Tyrion would be Cat's choice? She didn't argue in favor of Sansa for even one second in their private conversation.

And again, I'll just make the point that any action taken by Robb to "trap" Cat into supporting any decision other than naming her as heir seems utterly unnecessary. Robb is the king and can do what he wants. He doesn't need Cat's support, which he explicitly stated himself. But he does need Cat's support to name Cat as his heir, and thus he needed to cleverly trap her into it.

I don't think I can be satisfied by a theory with any other person being named heir, because if Robb names anyone else than there is no need to trap Cat into supporting him, and the entire chapter seems like mostly a waste of time.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

14 hours ago, DutchArya said:

That's not what happened.  

Cat agreed with Robb and that the North should never pass to Sansa.

Catelyn was against Jon being named heir Bd legitimised.

Robb also said Arya was as dead as Rickon and Bran... yet he never included her among his dead siblings at the Sealing. George never mentions Jon or Arya in that scene in front of his witnesses.

Did you read this section of my OP?

Quote

As for the whole "missing Arya" thing (everyone in the other thread was discussing how Arya is "conspicuously left out" of Robb's line regarding his heir). Have you guys considered that Robb may have simply been reiterating the recent events that changed the line of succession and thus lead to him needing to name an heir? Arya went missing and Jon went to the Wall like 10+ months earlier and neither of those changed who the heir was because Bran was the heir the whole time. But the deaths of Bran and Rickon were only about 3 months earlier, and the marriage of Sansa to Tyrion only happened days earlier, and those events actually directly change who the heir is. And until those recent events transpired, Robb would not have "left chaos in his wake" like Balon, because Bran was obviously still the heir. So you could simply interpret Robb's words to mean: Hey guys, now that my heir Bran is dead, and the 2 people directly in line after him are dead/married to Tyrion, I am naming a new heir. I didn't bother to mention Jon or Arya just now, because we had already written them off as candidates a while ago.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 6/10/2017 at 9:27 AM, Ygrain said:

Duty or not, she was going to totally hate the decision that Robb had made, and she was bound to be very bitter about it. He talked to her about it in privacy so that she voiced her objections solely to him, and not before the Lords, in case she was unable to control her emotions at the shock, and then she appeared as supporting Robb's decision, without showing any resentment. It's a pretty clever psychological maneuver on Robb's part - he gets her to voice an agreement, and only then he reveals what her agreement actually entails. That's your trap - being tricked into giving an agreement without realizing what you are agreeing to. It's a pretty common motive, for example in fairy tales ("you will give me that which you don't expect at home"); don't you think that the persons were here tricked into agreeing to something else than they had expected?

I'll concede this is 100% rational, but like I said to other people, "trapping" Cat into doing anything seems totally unnecessary, because Robb is king. She has to obey him. Robb could have easily had a much shorter conversation with Cat and told her outright: I am naming Jon as my heir. Complain about it here and now if you want, but I require your full support at the signing of my will. Obviously GRRM would have written something a bit more eloquent than that, but the point is that tricking Cat into admitting that Robb must name a new heir and then saying the only viable option is Jon is not clever at all, and there is no need for Robb to do it. He can simply command Cat and she has to obey. The only scenario that would necessitate Robb trapping Cat is if Cat is being named heir, because Robb actually needs Cat's support to do that.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The app is not canon. It was written mostly by Elio and Linda, the same people who think the idea of Tywin being poisoned by Oberyn is absurd, and the app has information they have only assumed to be true, such as the quote you referenced. There have been mistakes corrected before.

The app is GRRM-approved, though.

BTW, has it ever occured to you that, being closer to GRRM than any of us, they might be privy to something that indeed makes the theory absurd? Personally, I don't believe it, either - Tywin would have been a fool if he had given Oberyn an opportunity to mess with his food or drink. If anyone poisoned him, it would have been Varys, to remove him from fAegon's way, and then oh-so-conveniently mentioned before Tyrion where his chambers were, so that any potential suspicion was diverted at the "known murderer".

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'll concede this is 100% rational, but like I said to other people, "trapping" Cat into doing anything seems totally unnecessary, because Robb is king. She has to obey him. Robb could have easily had a much shorter conversation with Cat and told her outright: I am naming Jon as my heir. Complain about it here and now if you want, but I require your full support at the signing of my will. Obviously GRRM would have written something a bit more eloquent than that, but the point is that tricking Cat into admitting that Robb must name a new heir and then saying the only viable option is Jon is not clever at all, and there is no need for Robb to do it. He can simply command Cat and she has to obey. The only scenario that would necessitate Robb trapping Cat is if Cat is being named heir, because Robb actually needs Cat's support to do that.

And here you have actually trapped yourself: if Cat must obey no matter what, then Robb doesn't need her support for naming her the heir, either, because she simply must obey.

It is always better, though, to make the person accept your decision than just make them obey, and this is what Robb was trying to do in that dialogue: make her overcome her ingrained dislike of Jon and see that he was the only viable option, because, boy, she would have wanted as heir anyone but.

[Livesundersink]

On 2017-6-9 at 4:37 PM, Luddagain said:

As I have pointed out before Catelyn's folly in suggesting a Royce heir is essentially nominating Black Walder Frey as heir since I doubt that it is by accident that we are told that Walder Frey's first wife was Perrerra Royce

Not likely, the Stark girl who married the Royce only had 3 daughters who married into different houses from the Vale, of course it is still possible that daughters from those three marriages married back into the Royce family so it could be anyone's guess 

[ravenous reader]

13 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And again, I'll just make the point that any action taken by Robb to "trap" Cat into supporting any decision other than naming her as heir seems utterly unnecessary. Robb is the king and can do what he wants. He doesn't need Cat's support, which he explicitly stated himself. But he does need Cat's support to name Cat as his heir, and thus he needed to cleverly trap her into it.

I don't think I can be satisfied by a theory with any other person being named heir, because if Robb names anyone else than there is no need to trap Cat into supporting him, and the entire chapter seems like mostly a waste of time.

He doesn't trap Cat into supporting his decision; he traps her into having no other options than to go along with his will, however reluctantly.  Your argument doesn't make sense in at least one important respect -- if he were so keen on Cat as his heir (which Grey Wind's behavior emphatically refutes, but let's just say you're right about Robb's intention, for argument's sake...), why not just ask Cat to consider being his heir when they were discussing matters at Tristifer's tomb, or at least in private before the meeting?  What's unnecessary is springing it on her.  Why would she refuse?  It's perfect from her point of view.  Once she's the heir and Robb's dead, she can nominate as the next heir whomever the hell she wants, even those ridiculously far-removed relatives she had been suggesting.  And most of all, she can ensure Jon comes nowhere near Winterfell henceforth, which has always been her primary objective.  Why would she hesitate in acceding to his request? Why would she reject that power? There's no need for any trap in that case.

The identity of the heir notwithstanding, I don't think the chapter is a 'waste of time'.  It's an elegiac meditation on death and replete with dramatic irony, as those about to be slaughtered at the Red Wedding make elaborate plans for their future, proving one should never count ones chickens before they've hatched.  Cat and Robb are both so concerned with imaginary traps -- she with the one he's supposedly caught her in, and he with the one he's planning for New Year's day (the Moat Cailin offensive) -- they both fail to see the very real trap they are walking into.  The chapter also reiterates firstly how important Jon is to his siblings, and secondly how bitter and petty Cat is regarding Jon and nursing old grievances -- even as she approaches her own death...at least Robb, showing greater maturity than his own mother, considers his own death as a possibility and is taking steps to prepare for it (ironically, they can see the Twins from their vantage point as they contemplate the grave of the dead king; however this perspective does nothing to alter her shortsightedness) -- and since these preoccupations will be accentuated in the 'fire wight' Lady Stoneheart she's to become, that's likely to play an important role in the plot going forward.  In the whole conflict surrounding the will, GRRM is probably setting up the conditions for a future dispute over the inheritance of Winterfell -- bastard vs. trueborn.  If it's any consolation, I'm sure the will will resurface to dramatic effect at some point in the future, so you'll get to find out if you're right about Cat -- or wrong!

[The Fattest Leech]

This chapter and discussion is a parallel to the chapter and discussion Robb and Cat have with each other back in Game/Cat 8, only now the roles and power are reversed. There are a ton of carry over details and dialogue in that Game chapter that also play out to a full circle in this ASOS chapter. 

Ok, I just want to add this as well. There is even some shared dialogue between this early scene and the ToJ scene and discussion of (hidden) royal bastards:

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

"I like it." Catelyn stroked the wolf's head, gently. "It makes you look like my brother Edmure." Grey Wind nipped at her fingers, playful, and trotted back to his place by the fire.

Ser Helman Tallhart was the first to follow the direwolf across the room to pay his respects, kneeling before her and pressing his brow to her hand. "Lady Catelyn," he said, "you are fair as ever, a welcome sight in troubled times." The Glovers followed, Galbart and Robett, and Greatjon Umber, and the rest, one by one. Theon Greyjoy was the last. "I had not looked to see you here, my lady," he said as he knelt.

"I had not thought to be here," Catelyn said, "until I came ashore at White Harbor, and Lord Wyman told me that Robb had called the banners. You know his son, Ser Wendel," Wendel Manderly stepped forward and bowed as low as his girth would allow. "And my uncle, Ser Brynden Tully, who has left my sister's service for mine."

[Traverys]

20 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

as always, a perfect characterization of my OP, Traverys . I obviously think the story is about sensationalism at all possible moments, and that's exactly how I came up with this theory! In fact, I've never even read ASOIAF, I just go on the forum, and watch youtube theories, and come up with tinfoil, because I like to be a giant troll in my spare time

 

I aim to please.

[Elaena Targaryen]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:36 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Intriguing, by the way, that Robb would do such daring, shocking, unprecedented move as naming his mother (no relation to House Stark) as heir to Winterfell, essentially disowning a 8000-years-old dynasty (his own dynasty), and Cat... never comments.

/end thread      ....really though would Robb cause the extinction of his House - an 8000-years-old royal dynasty?

Laws of inheritance, murky as they can be, just don't work like that. The named heir should have a claim by being somewhere in the line of succession and should be entitled to the rank and property.

Hell probably even Jeyne would be the heir or have the right to name the heir over running backwards to Cat.

Quote

But, by all means, let's focus on the really important part, which is, what could constitute a "trap" - which is all the proof you need.

Yes it all hinges on a trap....

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 hours ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

/end thread      ....really though would Robb cause the extinction of his House - an 8000-years-old royal dynasty?

Laws of inheritance, murky as they can be, just don't work like that. The named heir should have a claim by being somewhere in the line of succession and should be entitled to the rank and property.

Hell probably even Jeyne would be the heir or have the right to name the heir over running backwards to Cat.

Yes it all hinges on a trap....

Yes, I think he would. His only other choice is Jon, and many people would view House Stark via Jon as illegitimate for the rest of time because Jon would be a bastard, oathbreaking, NW deserter. Robb might as well pass his dynasty on to his mother, probably the person he respects most in the world, and then let the dynasty pass on to her future children.

And as you said, laws of inheritance are murky. Cat has been the lady of WF for almost 2 decades. It makes perfect sense for her to take control of House Stark and then marry a northerner, or some distant Stark relation (like the Vale cousins). This certainly makes more sense politically than giving Jeyne Westerling a teenage girl from the Westerlands, authority to choose the new ruler of the north.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

23 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The app is GRRM-approved, though.

BTW, has it ever occured to you that, being closer to GRRM than any of us, they might be privy to something that indeed makes the theory absurd? Personally, I don't believe it, either - Tywin would have been a fool if he had given Oberyn an opportunity to mess with his food or drink. If anyone poisoned him, it would have been Varys, to remove him from fAegon's way, and then oh-so-conveniently mentioned before Tyrion where his chambers were, so that any potential suspicion was diverted at the "known murderer".

And here you have actually trapped yourself: if Cat must obey no matter what, then Robb doesn't need her support for naming her the heir, either, because she simply must obey.

It is always better, though, to make the person accept your decision than just make them obey, and this is what Robb was trying to do in that dialogue: make her overcome her ingrained dislike of Jon and see that he was the only viable option, because, boy, she would have wanted as heir anyone but.

Just because the app is GRRM-approved does not mean he has proofread the whole thing and approved every individual entry. It is not canon. It is semi-canon. It is ideally supposed to be canon, but Elio and Linda are capable of making mistakes.

No, as I explained earlier, the one thing that Robb would need Cat's support in is naming her the heir. Because, on a practical level, as soon as Robb is dead his heir gets all his authority, so Cat could immediately abdicate if she wanted to. And I think Cat at this stage, emotionally speaking, would have refused to act as his heir if he had simply asked or commanded her. That's why Robb needed to trap her by threatening to name Jon.

Yes, it is preferable to have someone accept your decision instead of merely obeying it. I admit it. I just think it is a much weaker explanation for the "trap".