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Shades of Service: The Black, the White, and the Gray


hiemal

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In Westeros we have three orders whose vows of service forswear marriage and children and who wear black, white or gray. Are there other similarities and could there be a common origin? The black Night's Watch was presumably formed during the Long Night for the desperate, the condemned, the grimly dutiful, and the suicidally heroic. The white Kingsguard (the Knight's Watch?) as we know it now came about after Aegon's Conquest, but I think it possible that the stories of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield being a Kingsguard, for example, that the maesters claim to be anachronisms may be another example of them being either smugly wrong or intentionally deceptive. We don't know when the Citadel was founded for sure (An early Hightower, I think- but how long have they been here?), but the gray maesters' (the Nights' Watch) duties measuring the days to watch for the change of seasons make a response to the Long Night plausible.

I also think it is interesting to contrast the gray Silent Sisters with the House of Black and White in Braavos; the tongueless women and the faceless men. I suspect that some of the Silent Sisters' cowls hide mens' faces and their silence prevents their voices from giving them away. Given the androgyny of the Stranger it seems almost a no-brainer but I don't know if the men in question would be castrated or just live as women like the male Jhogos Nhai Moonsingers. I have no idea how the Braavosi Moonsingers do it, but given their proximity to the House of Black and White I am curious. How do the Silent Sisters blur the line between life and death that the Faceless Men keep so distinct? My only tinfoil on this is that someone the world at large presumes dead is haunting the world yet as a Sister.

Have any ideas, information, or tinfoil on any or all of these to share?

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27 minutes ago, hiemal said:

In Westeros we have three orders whose vows of service forswear marriage and children and who wear black, white or gray. Are there other similarities and could there be a common origin? The black Night's Watch was presumably formed during the Long Night for the desperate, the condemned, the grimly dutiful, and the suicidally heroic. The white Kingsguard (the Knight's Watch?) as we know it now came about after Aegon's Conquest, but I think it possible that the stories of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield being a Kingsguard, for example, that the maesters claim to be anachronisms may be another example of them being either smugly wrong or intentionally deceptive. We don't know when the Citadel was founded for sure (An early Hightower, I think- but how long have they been here?), but the gray maesters' (the Nights' Watch) duties measuring the days to watch for the change of seasons make a response to the Long Night plausible.

I also think it is interesting to contrast the gray Silent Sisters with the House of Black and White in Braavos; the tongueless women and the faceless men. I suspect that some of the Silent Sisters' cowls hide mens' faces and their silence prevents their voices from giving them away. Given the androgyny of the Stranger it seems almost a no-brainer but I don't know if the men in question would be castrated or just live as women like the male Jhogos Nhai Moonsingers. I have no idea how the Braavosi Moonsingers do it, but given their proximity to the House of Black and White I am curious. How do the Silent Sisters blur the line between life and death that the Faceless Men keep so distinct? My only tinfoil on this is that someone the world at large presumes dead is haunting the world yet as a Sister.

Have any ideas, information, or tinfoil on any or all of these to share?

Some people think Joanna Lannister is alive as a Silent Sister.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Some people think Joanna Lannister is alive as a Silent Sister.

I haven't heard that one but given the clamor that accompanied Tyrion's birth and the shame it brought to the House combined with the Tysha/Tyrion thing I can actually see that as possible.

Still, that is cold even for Tywin. Maybe he "let" her become a whore and visited her through the Hand's passage that his son later used?

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Sorry, this is a more than a little brainstormy and partially the result of ice cream, sleepiness and whiskey.

I haven’t really come to any conclusion yet, just noticing a pattern which is basically that if you have major magical abilities, are committed to saving lives, healing lives, or the practice blood magic, then you also have some sort of fertility problem.

I’ve been toying with the idea that it’s all a variation of Only Death (or having no children) Can Pay for Life. Not to go too far into physics, but it reminds me of the fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed. If a large amount of energy is generated then it must be that it was taken from something else. So people who have magical abilities, healing abilities, saving lives occupations, etc must in turn by the cosmic order of GRRM’s world, or laws of energy if that would apply here,  or by of GRRM’s own arbitrary law of “’cause I say so”, must give up that energy from something else: their unborn children, living children, or fertility. So eh, maybe magic is sucking the energy/life out of the natural order of the world.

Some of these seem more like costs which GRRM demands from his characters rather than fitting some in-world pattern.

· In the Dothraki hoard, eunuchs and the barren are healers. They save and heal lives, but in turn can give no life. Likewise for the Maesters of Westeros (healers of the living) and the Silent Sisters (healers of the dead).

· Mirri Maz Duur knows blood magic including healing and resurrection and claims she paid a heavy price for that knowledge. She is forty or so with no children. Was that her price? Text implies that she is barren.

· The Stranger is neither male nor female, thus fertility is a non-issue.

· Dany loses her ability to have human children as she gains the ability to have dragon children.

· To be a FM and all powers that come with, one must give up oneself, and by extension, any children.

· Mel recalls no children, but has shadow babies. Her god requires blood sacrifice, so perhaps another form of death paying for life happening? Or is it that Stannis gradually loses his health and therefore life as he keeps fathering shadow babies?

· The Northerners used to give blood sacrifices to the Weirwoods. Did anyone receive this life in turn?

· Roose Bolton leaches himself to the point of severe anemia. Is he giving life to something or someone (Bloodraven symbolism with the white leeches)? Leaches are associated with Maesters and healing. Mel tosses the leaches into the fire and the Kings die.

· Kings have the power over life and death on a large scale. Is this why their blood is so powerful? Is sacrificing a king symbolically sacrificing all of the lives whose fates he controls also?

· One or two of Cersei’s children are dead, but it coincides with her facilitation of the rebirth/healing of Robert Strong via “Maester” Qyburn. Prophesy says she will lose all of her children. Is the prophesy really about Cersei “sacrificing” her children’s lives via her own terrible behavior to allow for the creation of alternate types of life? Cersei’s own sort of blood magic where death will pay for life? In Maggy’s green tent, Cersei notes that her own blood looks black.

· The Night’s Watch and the King’s Guard are both knights (sort of), but their specific duty is to save the lives of the kingdom and the Royal Family respectively. The “death” of their never-born children pay for the lives they save in turn.

· The Unsullied give up their fertility for their exceptional ability.

· Those who are no longer fertile due to age are attributed with the power of wisdom in turn (the Crone, Vaes Dothrak).

· Jaqen says that Arya must sacrifice three lives for the three lives she saved.

· Ice (Others), Fire (Dany), and the CotF all have very exceptional abilities combined with fertility problems

· Bran gains his third eye and begins his path to a becoming a demi-god  as he becomes paralyzed thus losing his fertility.

· Bloodraven has no reported children

· Catelyn loses Robb and she comes back as Stoneheart. She thinks that all of her children are dead or in Sansa’s case, a Lannister. Being a Lannister means Sansa is gone from her forever (dead in a way).

· Lady dies, and Bran regains consciousness

· Euron’s various “hobbies”

· The Whents are connected to Harrenhal which is associated with the dark arts and have had fertility problems

· Tyrion, Jon and Dany are expected by some to play a special role in “healing” or saving the world. Their mothers all died giving birth to them. Maybe it was a payment for the lives their children would later save?

· In Christianity, Jesus had to die so that mankind could receive (after) life thus being saved. Communion is where we symbolically eat the body and drink the blood of Christ in remembrance of Jesus Dying to Pay for (after) Life. Also had exceptional abilities and no children.

· Throughout history, blood sacrifices have been made in real life so that one’s God(s) of choice will bless us with long and healthy life or prosperity.

 

There’s a real world tradition of exceptional abilities accompanying the lack of fertility or the sacrifice of children in a variation of Only Death (or infertility) can Pay for Life. Witches who have power over life and death typically have no children in the stories. Likewise the mysterious loner healers found in stories: they heal (give life) but don’t create life. Vampires (dead) and Werewolves (gained a second life as a wolf) are usually only able to procreate by infection, not by birth and have a compulsive need to kill. In modern mythology, superheroes save lives but don’t have kids. Virgins are prized as sacrifices perhaps because their finite energy has not yet been dispersed by attempts at  procreation. I just saw a TV show where a seer could only use her gift while she was a virgin indicating that she could either have the energy to see, or the energy to procreate, but there was not enough energy for both. Holy figures in various religions are often childless.

As for the neutral colors worn, in nature bright colors are associated with higher fertility or peak fertility. Think flowers, parading peacocks...or other things :P. Spring and Summer are fertile seasons and are rich with color. Winter is infertile and comes in black, white, and gray. My best guess anyhow.

When she opened the door to the garden, it was so lovely that she held her breath, unwilling to disturb such perfect beauty. The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

 

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7 hours ago, hiemal said:

...

I also think it is interesting to contrast the gray Silent Sisters with the House of Black and White in Braavos; the tongueless women and the faceless men. I suspect that some of the Silent Sisters' cowls hide mens' faces and their silence prevents their voices from giving them away. Given the androgyny of the Stranger it seems almost a no-brainer but I don't know if the men in question would be castrated or just live as women like the male Jhogos Nhai Moonsingers. I have no idea how the Braavosi Moonsingers do it, but given their proximity to the House of Black and White I am curious. How do the Silent Sisters blur the line between life and death that the Faceless Men keep so distinct? My only tinfoil on this is that someone the world at large presumes dead is haunting the world yet as a Sister.

Have any ideas, information, or tinfoil on any or all of these to share?

Interesting. The Kindly Man seems to support the idea of men as Silent Sisters:

Quote

"It may be that the Many-Faced God has led you [Arya] here to be His instrument, but when I look at you I see a child ... and worse, a girl child. Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both."

But the Silent Sisters will take a different view of course. They don't personally give the gift of life, or of death - so maybe that's why women are ok, even though they absolutely are in the service of death, and dedicated to the Stranger/Many Faced God just as much as the faceless men.

There could be men among them, but there are practical difficulties - many would be too tall, hands and feet too big, etc.

More generally, you'd expect the Sisters and the faceless men to be very different because of their chosen 'colours'. Both monotone, yes - in the night and the Long Night there are no rainbow colours, but there will be a lot of death, apparently. But grey is essentially different to black and white. Grey is 'normal', I think. Most people never touch the extremes of evil or goodness. Reaching for the extremes of black and whites seems to be always dangerous, false and unstable. The Kingsguard don't deserve their reputation, and the Night's Watch don't deserve theirs.

I say unstable, because black and white defy a neat categorisation. White is the colour of purity and virtue, yes, but also the colour of icy death. Black is the terrible night and dead blood, but also the brave watchmen and fire hero Drogon.

So to conclude, I'd say the Sisters' way of death is the 'normal' one - letting death happen in the natural way. The faceless men are the disrupters, taking life and death into their own hands.

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7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

· The Unsullied give up their fertility for their exceptional ability.

 

· 

A lot of great stuff here! What fascinates me about the Unsullied in this situation is that at first glance they seem like sacrificial victims, calling to mind Varys and the sorcerer who used his junk like a quarter in a pay phone. But:

Grey Worm looked troubled. "The goddess is called by many names. She is the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle, the Mother of Hosts, but her true name belongs only to these poor ones who have burned their manhoods upon her altar. We may not speak of her to others. This one begs your forgiveness." .... ADwD

She is not an androgyne, but the Lady of Spears is a pretty phallic image- could she be the Stranger/Many-Faced God?

7 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There’s a real world tradition of exceptional abilities accompanying the lack of fertility or the sacrifice of children in a variation of Only Death (or infertility) can Pay for Life. Witches who have power over life and death typically have no children in the stories. Likewise the mysterious loner healers found in stories: they heal (give life) but don’t create life. Vampires (dead) and Werewolves (gained a second life as a wolf) are usually only able to procreate by infection, not by birth and have a compulsive need to kill. In modern mythology, superheroes save lives but don’t have kids. Virgins are prized as sacrifices perhaps because their finite energy has not yet been dispersed by attempts at  procreation. I just saw a TV show where a seer could only use her gift while she was a virgin indicating that she could either have the energy to see, or the energy to procreate, but there was not enough energy for both. Holy figures in various religions are often childless.

 

As for the neutral colors worn, in nature bright colors are associated with higher fertility or peak fertility. Think flowers, parading peacocks...or other things :P. Spring and Summer are fertile seasons and are rich with color. Winter is infertile and comes in black, white, and gray. My best guess anyhow.

The Black Goat of Qohor could be the embodiment of unnatural, twisted fertility by way of Lovecraft's Shub-Nigurrath, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young. I'm thinking of the rumors of child-sacrifice and Valyrian Steel- which come to think of it also fits the theme of light, dark, and in-between with their mottled, rippled Damascus-steel appearance. Swords are associated literally with death (obviously) and symbolically with life ("forging" Lightbringer as sexual reproduction, for example).

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So to conclude, I'd say the Sisters' way of death is the 'normal' one - letting death happen in the natural way. The faceless men are the disrupters, taking life and death into their own hands.

That makes sense. The Faceless Men and the Sisters seem to look at death differently. At least, I don't think the Sisters ever refer to death as a gift or a blessing.

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It might be worth examining Ser Ilyn Payne (tongue cut out), Areoh Hotah (married to his axe) and Renly's Rainbow Guard alongside the groups listed in the OP.

I'm also interested in the septas in contrast with septons. Tyrion sees stretch marks on Septa Lemore, so she seems to be fertile and has produced offspring. I suspect Septa Mordane was also a mother.

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20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sorry, this is a more than a little brainstormy and partially the result of ice cream, sleepiness and whiskey.

 

I haven’t really come to any conclusion yet, just noticing a pattern which is basically that if you have major magical abilities, are committed to saving lives, healing lives, or the practice blood magic, then you also have some sort of fertility problem.

 

I’ve been toying with the idea that it’s all a variation of Only Death (or having no children) Can Pay for Life. Not to go too far into physics, but it reminds me of the fact that energy can neither be created or destroyed. If a large amount of energy is generated then it must be that it was taken from something else. So people who have magical abilities, healing abilities, saving lives occupations, etc must in turn by the cosmic order of GRRM’s world, or laws of energy if that would apply here,  or by of GRRM’s own arbitrary law of “’cause I say so”, must give up that energy from something else: their unborn children, living children, or fertility. So eh, maybe magic is sucking the energy/life out of the natural order of the world.

 

Some of these seem more like costs which GRRM demands from his characters rather than fitting some in-world pattern.

 

· In the Dothraki hoard, eunuchs and the barren are healers. They save and heal lives, but in turn can give no life. Likewise for the Maesters of Westeros (healers of the living) and the Silent Sisters (healers of the dead).

 

· Mirri Maz Duur knows blood magic including healing and resurrection and claims she paid a heavy price for that knowledge. She is forty or so with no children. Was that her price? Text implies that she is barren.

 

· The Stranger is neither male nor female, thus fertility is a non-issue.

 

· Dany loses her ability to have human children as she gains the ability to have dragon children.

 

· To be a FM and all powers that come with, one must give up oneself, and by extension, any children.

 

· Mel recalls no children, but has shadow babies. Her god requires blood sacrifice, so perhaps another form of death paying for life happening? Or is it that Stannis gradually loses his health and therefore life as he keeps fathering shadow babies?

 

· The Northerners used to give blood sacrifices to the Weirwoods. Did anyone receive this life in turn?

 

· Roose Bolton leaches himself to the point of severe anemia. Is he giving life to something or someone (Bloodraven symbolism with the white leeches)? Leaches are associated with Maesters and healing. Mel tosses the leaches into the fire and the Kings die.

 

· Kings have the power over life and death on a large scale. Is this why their blood is so powerful? Is sacrificing a king symbolically sacrificing all of the lives whose fates he controls also?

 

· One or two of Cersei’s children are dead, but it coincides with her facilitation of the rebirth/healing of Robert Strong via “Maester” Qyburn. Prophesy says she will lose all of her children. Is the prophesy really about Cersei “sacrificing” her children’s lives via her own terrible behavior to allow for the creation of alternate types of life? Cersei’s own sort of blood magic where death will pay for life? In Maggy’s green tent, Cersei notes that her own blood looks black.

 

· The Night’s Watch and the King’s Guard are both knights (sort of), but their specific duty is to save the lives of the kingdom and the Royal Family respectively. The “death” of their never-born children pay for the lives they save in turn.

 

· The Unsullied give up their fertility for their exceptional ability.

 

· Those who are no longer fertile due to age are attributed with the power of wisdom in turn (the Crone, Vaes Dothrak).

· Jaqen says that Arya must sacrifice three lives for the three lives she saved.

 

· Ice (Others), Fire (Dany), and the CotF all have very exceptional abilities combined with fertility problems

 

· Bran gains his third eye and begins his path to a becoming a demi-god  as he becomes paralyzed thus losing his fertility.

 

· Bloodraven has no reported children

 

· Catelyn loses Robb and she comes back as Stoneheart. She thinks that all of her children are dead or in Sansa’s case, a Lannister. Being a Lannister means Sansa is gone from her forever (dead in a way).

 

· Lady dies, and Bran regains consciousness

· Euron’s various “hobbies”

 

· The Whents are connected to Harrenhal which is associated with the dark arts and have had fertility problems

 

· Tyrion, Jon and Dany are expected by some to play a special role in “healing” or saving the world. Their mothers all died giving birth to them. Maybe it was a payment for the lives their children would later save?

 

· In Christianity, Jesus had to die so that mankind could receive (after) life thus being saved. Communion is where we symbolically eat the body and drink the blood of Christ in remembrance of Jesus Dying to Pay for (after) Life. Also had exceptional abilities and no children.

 

· Throughout history, blood sacrifices have been made in real life so that one’s God(s) of choice will bless us with long and healthy life or prosperity.

 

 

 

There’s a real world tradition of exceptional abilities accompanying the lack of fertility or the sacrifice of children in a variation of Only Death (or infertility) can Pay for Life. Witches who have power over life and death typically have no children in the stories. Likewise the mysterious loner healers found in stories: they heal (give life) but don’t create life. Vampires (dead) and Werewolves (gained a second life as a wolf) are usually only able to procreate by infection, not by birth and have a compulsive need to kill. In modern mythology, superheroes save lives but don’t have kids. Virgins are prized as sacrifices perhaps because their finite energy has not yet been dispersed by attempts at  procreation. I just saw a TV show where a seer could only use her gift while she was a virgin indicating that she could either have the energy to see, or the energy to procreate, but there was not enough energy for both. Holy figures in various religions are often childless.

As for the neutral colors worn, in nature bright colors are associated with higher fertility or peak fertility. Think flowers, parading peacocks...or other things :P. Spring and Summer are fertile seasons and are rich with color. Winter is infertile and comes in black, white, and gray. My best guess anyhow.

 

When she opened the door to the garden, it was so lovely that she held her breath, unwilling to disturb such perfect beauty. The snow drifted down and down, all in ghostly silence, and lay thick and unbroken on the ground. All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and greys. White towers and white snow and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark grey sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.

 

 

 

You've brought forth a very good analysis here and I like it very much.

(I still ship it, though)

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

It might be worth examining Ser Ilyn Payne (tongue cut out), Areoh Hotah (married to his axe) and Renly's Rainbow Guard alongside the groups listed in the OP.

On hierodules:

In Norvos, iirc, the bearded priests are not slaves while the beardless axe-slaves are married to their phallic axes (an inverted sexual dynamic) and the population at large seem to be cast in a feminine, submissive role by this emasculation and by the priests elevation over the general population, who must travel up the Sinners' Steps to meet on equal ground. I wish we knew more about this god of theirs and why he/she enjoys dancing bears so much.

The Red Priests are also temple slaves and with their devotion to shadow as the child of flame I think they should be considered as well. Thoros recalls sneaking girls into his bed, so clearly that kind of fraternization was forbidden at that time in his training but if Melisandre is any indicator, and she may not be, it doesn't seem to hold true at all times. I wonder if the Fiery Hand are married to their weapons?

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