Jon was rightfully "terminated" by the Watch

[The Commentator]

On 6/17/2017 at 11:14 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

But what about when Jeor offered to escort Craster (of all god forsaken people) and his wives south of the wall?

Craster served the Watch, without actually serving the Watch.  He was basically a traitor to the Free Folk because he sheltered wounded rangers and fed them.  His Keep was actually an informal outposts for the Watch.  

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Walder had more options to handle the situation than poor Bowen had.

Sure, but Walder was not forced to murder thousands of people nor was he forced to lure Robb into a trap.

Marsh tried to reason with Jon as long as he could. But when Jon openly broke his vow there was nothing else he could do.

[The Commentator]

True.  Walder could have turned his back on any deal offer that Robb made and begged Tywin's forgiveness.  I have a hunch that Tywin made it a condition of Walder to help take out Robb though.  Roose, I'm not sure what his angle was in all this.  But he too came out pretty good for now.  

[Damsel in Distress]

Jon's sins were far more offensive than Robb's although both involved oathbreaking.  Jon's was a betrayal of not only the watch but the whole realm. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On Invalid Date at 11:04 PM, Makk said:

I have to disagree with this strongly. Before Jon became commander, the Nightswatch were basically finished. They certainly were not capable of protecting the realm against any credible threat. And one must presume the Others are more than credible. They will only be able to continue to function with support from the South, which is what they got from Stanis (mainly because it was politically conveniant). The Nightswatch needs the Starks or Stanis to gain control of the North again if they have any hope in actually holding the wall.

I don't think the Nw was finished or close to finished.  The watch adjusted over the years according to the role.  It would have been foolish to maintain fully garrisoned castles for thousands of years when the threat were the wildlings.  It would have been wasteful of resources.  Winters make men walk out in the snow to kill themselves and save his family from starvation.  So you can see why the size of the Nw would be adjusted based on the current threat.  It makes sense for the watch to be as small as it was. 

If there is a fault, it is with the Starks who keep saying "Winter is Coming" and did nothing to prepare for it.  They actually marched south and took manpower away from the north.  Jon compounded that mistake by starting a war with the Boltons instead of trying harder to win them over to his cause.  Stannis could himself take the black and the Boltons would be relieved and would be open to at least listen to what Jon has to say.   Roose Bolton has the manpower and he holds two of the strongest fortresses in the north.  Making an alliance with the Boltons could potentially better prepare the north to defend against the White Walkers instead of both sides using up scarce supplies to decide who gets to stay married and who owns Winterfell.  Jon instead chose to alienate the Boltons to rescue one sister. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On Invalid Date at 10:15 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

That's the Sorrowful Men.

Jon could have done better proving the existence to his own men.

On the second sentence, a definite yes.

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It would have been foolish to maintain fully garrisoned castles for thousands of years when the threat were the wildlings.

Actually, the wildlings managed to get past the wall south numerous times with a whole army because the NW was undermanned. The Umbers and Starks were forced to take care of them several times. One time the NW arrived so late, all that was left for them to do was bury the bodies.

 

26 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

So you can see why the size of the Nw would be adjusted based on the current threat.  It makes sense for the watch to be as small as it was. 

Without Stannis's aid and Jon's warning, the NW would have been fucked, the Wall breached.

[The Fattest Leech]

7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Craster served the Watch, without actually serving the Watch.  He was basically a traitor to the Free Folk because he sheltered wounded rangers and fed them.  His Keep was actually an informal outposts for the Watch.  

Good. I see that we agree that Craster is a wildling who, despite never kneeling, follows his own laws, worships his own "gods", is a known kinslayer, can still serve the Watch. This goes along with what Jeor and Jon talked about back in AGOT, and Jon is following Joer's footsteps (paw prints!) by escorting the wildlings south, as Jeor offered to Craster, because Jon sees the value in them. Jon doesn't require them to kneel, but he does require them to obey (his words, not mine )

Because yeah, winter is coming, and getting people south is the best defense. 

[sweetsunray]

On 16/6/2017 at 4:15 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon could have done better proving the existence to his own men.

They saw two dead rangers attack and murder several of their men inside Castle Black, even after the head was taken off.

About a dozen men who survived the Fist and ran to Craster's chased by an army of wights and Others arrived back at CB and even joined Bowen Marsh at the Bridge of Skulls, so plenty of eyewitness reports.

And Jon did keep dead men in the ice cellars for this purpose.

Aleister has no issue believing the existence of wights. He pleads at KL for forces to help them, talking of wights and Others. The mutineers at Craster's were actual witnesses at the Fist. They know! They all believe! Still Aleister is more eager to get a total corrup disaster as Slynt elected as LC and get Jon killed in aSoS. Why? Because he fears it's the only way the NW will get help from KL. The mutineers for some mind boggling reason still expect they can have a pretty good life at Craster's after killing everybody else there, instead of trying to get south of the wall. And Bowen Marsh is plain racist.  

[Victor Newman]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, the wildlings managed to get past the wall south numerous times with a whole army because the NW was undermanned. The Umbers and Starks were forced to take care of them several times. One time the NW arrived so late, all that was left for them to do was bury the bodies.

 

Without Stannis's aid and Jon's warning, the NW would have been fucked, the Wall breached.

The Wall does not have to completely stop every single wildling to be effective.  It just has to prevent a mass invasion of them and make it inconvenient.  If the wall and the watch were completely ineffective, the north never would have had a moment's peace. 

Part of the blame for that goes to Mormont for taking the main force of the NW on a ranging. 

Even if all this were true, this does not in any manner excuse what Jon did.  He had no right to interfere with the Bolton's activities.  He most certainly had no right to do what he was about to do:  lead a bunch of wildlings to attack the Warden of the North.

[Makk]

4 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't think the Nw was finished or close to finished.  The watch adjusted over the years according to the role.  It would have been foolish to maintain fully garrisoned castles for thousands of years when the threat were the wildlings.  It would have been wasteful of resources.  Winters make men walk out in the snow to kill themselves and save his family from starvation.  So you can see why the size of the Nw would be adjusted based on the current threat.  It makes sense for the watch to be as small as it was. 

If there is a fault, it is with the Starks who keep saying "Winter is Coming" and did nothing to prepare for it.  They actually marched south and took manpower away from the north.  Jon compounded that mistake by starting a war with the Boltons instead of trying harder to win them over to his cause.  Stannis could himself take the black and the Boltons would be relieved and would be open to at least listen to what Jon has to say.   Roose Bolton has the manpower and he holds two of the strongest fortresses in the north.  Making an alliance with the Boltons could potentially better prepare the north to defend against the White Walkers instead of both sides using up scarce supplies to decide who gets to stay married and who owns Winterfell.  Jon instead chose to alienate the Boltons to rescue one sister. 

Before the Wildlings joined them the nightswatch was finished. They may (or not) have been able to stop the wildlings if Mormont didn't lose his troops north of the wall, but there was no way they would have even discovered, let alone be able to stop, the true threat. Through Jon accepting the Wildlings, he now actually has a somewhat sizeable and sustainable force.

Even if Stannis did take the Black, it wouldn't really help. His men follow the King, not many of them would hang around if he wasn't. He does believe and if he can become king he could actually make a difference.

The Boltons will never hold the north and they will not assist the wall. Ramsay sat home at the Dreadfort when the wall was under attack despite receiving summons. The North hates them as well. They have been written to be extreme villains, trying to put your faith in them is bizarre.

[KingMance]

Imo a leader who let's thousands of people die to come back as wights and says LOL my sister is getting raped whatever isn't a guy I'd follow. Sure Jon broke a law but it's a shit one. Besides Mance (who's running from the danger), Stannis, and his red witch their is no one on Planetos actively trying to stop the Others. 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

They saw two dead rangers attack and murder several of their men inside Castle Black, even after the head was taken off.

Some of the black brothers saw that, not all of them. But, yeah, most of them sure as hell believe that zombies exist. But the first Other is only seen after the Fist, when Sam kills him.

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

About a dozen men who survived the Fist and ran to Craster's chased by an army of wights and Others arrived back at CB and even joined Bowen Marsh at the Bridge of Skulls, so plenty of eyewitness reports.

Yeah, those are eyewitnesses about Others and zombies out there beyond the Wall. But that doesn't mean the black brothers all have to understand how dangerous they are to everyone - and the same goes for the people south of the Wall, even if they believe they existed. However, those people who do believe the Others are a major threat to all of Westeros (or humanity in general) don't make a good job at trying to convince others that this is the case. In fact, they make no such attempts whatsoever after Alliser Thorne fails.

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The mutineers at Craster's were actual witnesses at the Fist. They know! They all believe! Still Aleister is more eager to get a total corrup disaster as Slynt elected as LC and get Jon killed in aSoS. Why? Because he fears it's the only way the NW will get help from KL. The mutineers for some mind boggling reason still expect they can have a pretty good life at Craster's after killing everybody else there, instead of trying to get south of the wall. And Bowen Marsh is plain racist.  

Chett planned to set himself up as some sort of lord beyond the Wall (like Craster) because he is a pretty stupid person. He doesn't have a realistic picture of life beyond the Wall or the situation the people there find themselves in now that the Others have returned. One of the others wanted to make for Tyrosh, if I remember correctly, a much better idea.

And while the mutineers were some of Chett's co-conspirators nothing indicates they were smarter than Chett or had a clear plan what to do. The impression I get is that the main reason for their mutiny after they were finally on the way back to the Wall is that they were hungry and cold, expecting that Craster was hiding the food he has stored. Those men were stupid criminal scum who didn't understand that there was no chance that they could set themselves up as the new lords of Craster's. And we don't even know whether that's what they wanted to do in the long run or if they were just intending to satisfy some baser needs and then think what they would do after they had freed themselves of the Night's Watch.

Thorne knows he won't be elected Lord Commander himself. He intends to use Slynt as his pawn. And Slynt is no bad candidate for such a man, especially in light of his connections to court. Or what the people at the Watch think counts for connections. Most of them are strikingly naive. Even Mormont doesn't fully understand that the Realm doesn't give a shit about the Night's Watch.

Bowen Marsh isn't a racist. He just views the wildlings as untrustworthy uncivilized savages. That is, perhaps, cultural chauvinism but race doesn't figure into that. And he is completely right in his assessment that the ways of the Seven Kingdoms and the ways of the wildlings are incompatible. Their culture based on raiding and the stealing of women and the unwillingness to accept the feudal society of the Seven Kingdoms make it impossible for the people and lords of the Seven Kingdoms to not see them as nothing but a danger.

4 hours ago, KingMance said:

Imo a leader who let's thousands of people die to come back as wights and says LOL my sister is getting raped whatever isn't a guy I'd follow. Sure Jon broke a law but it's a shit one. Besides Mance (who's running from the danger), Stannis, and his red witch their is no one on Planetos actively trying to stop the Others. 

Jon Snow took that vow of his own free will. Nobody forced him to do that. He knew the consequences. And it is not that he doesn't understand what his actual duties are. He does. That is made very obvious in his second last chapter. But he just doesn't care anymore when he receives the Pink Letter.

5 hours ago, Makk said:

Before the Wildlings joined them the nightswatch was finished. They may (or not) have been able to stop the wildlings if Mormont didn't lose his troops north of the wall, but there was no way they would have even discovered, let alone be able to stop, the true threat. Through Jon accepting the Wildlings, he now actually has a somewhat sizeable and sustainable force.

The wildlings aren't worth all that much as a fighting force or anything, really. Yarwyck points out that it is rather difficult to use them as builders, reducing the potential to use them as a workforce to make the other castles habitable and strengthen the defenses of the Wall. And one also assumes that they could be used to throw stones on the wights down before the Wall. But that's it.

You kid yourself if you believe Jon (or anyone) is going to be able to lead an army consisting mostly of wildlings against an army of wights in some sort of pitched battle. That would also be very hard with an army consisting of black brothers but they received, more or less, some sort of military training for months or even years. And they know that's their duty. The wildlings don't think in such categories.

If Stannis could cut their host to pieces with as few men as he had then there is no chance that those men stand any chance against the Others. Mance realized that they could not. That's why they tried to hide behind the Wall. And if those ice spiders end up showing up after all everybody is likely to break and run.

There certainly are some good fighters among the wildlings - men like Leathers - but how many of those are in Tormund's group? The majority of them would be women, children, and men who are not really all that good soldierly material.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Take Me 2 Your Leader said:

The Wall does not have to completely stop every single wildling to be effective.  It just has to prevent a mass invasion of them and make it inconvenient.  If the wall and the watch were completely ineffective, the north never would have had a moment's peace. 

Well let's see:

• Gendel and Gorne, joined kings-beyond-the-wall managed to get south of the Wall and slay the Stark King about 3000 years ago
• The Horned Lord used magic a 1000 years later, and thus 2000 years ago
• Bael the Bard legend talks of killing and fathering and flaying Lords of WF, and thus Bael must have been a figure at the most 300 years ago. And yes, Osha proves that the wildlings used to refer to Starks as Kings in Winter. They didn't recognize them as their kings, but they recognized they were kings over the people in the region we call the North.
• In 226 AC Raymund Redbeard got as far as Long Lake where the wildling army battled Umbers and Starks. The LC of the NW Jac Musgood was nicknamed Sleepy Jack, because he didn't even know a massive wildling army had breached the wall and arrived too late for the battle. Lord William Stark was beheaded by Raymund in that battle, but William's brother Artos killed Raymund.
• In 299 AC Mance Rayder tries to breach the wall. The NW was only a 1000 man strong in 298 AC, and half of that in 299 AC.

So, we know of 5 giant wildling armies invading the North, and 6 King's-Beyond-the-Wall (including Joramun at the time of the NK, but Joramun joined the Starks in defeating the NK), over the course of 3000 years ago. BUT 3 out of 5 happened in the course of at the most the last 300 years, while the NW dwindles from 10000 man strong to a 1000 man strong in that same time. And each time a Lord of WF was killed in such an attack. And then I'm nto even mentioning the imprecise references to Jaehaerys and Alysane coming to the "aid" of the NW to fight wildlings. Since Lord Ellard Stark had a brother, it seems unlikely that the wildling army that Jaehaerys and Alysane fought  (allegedly according to songs) were Bael's. So we're looking at 4 threats in 300 years, and half of those ended up killing the Lord Stark, and 2 happened in the past 75 years.

Obvioiusly the NW has become very ineffective.

[cpg2016]

22 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Craster served the Watch, without actually serving the Watch.  He was basically a traitor to the Free Folk because he sheltered wounded rangers and fed them.  His Keep was actually an informal outposts for the Watch.  

It is strongly implied that many wildlings do this and while Craster may have a particularly "close" relationship with the Watch, that many wildlings aid and abet Rangers, and the Rangers in turn are at least cordial to many wildlings.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well let's see:

• Gendel and Gorne, joined kings-beyond-the-wall managed to get south of the Wall and slay the Stark King about 3000 years ago
• The Horned Lord used magic a 1000 years later, and thus 2000 years ago
• Bael the Bard legend talks of killing and fathering and flaying Lords of WF, and thus Bael must have been a figure at the most 300 years ago. And yes, Osha proves that the wildlings used to refer to Starks as Kings in Winter. They didn't recognize them as their kings, but they recognized they were kings over the people in the region we call the North.
• In 226 AC Raymund Redbeard got as far as Long Lake where the wildling army battled Umbers and Starks. The LC of the NW Jac Musgood was nicknamed Sleepy Jack, because he didn't even know a massive wildling army had breached the wall and arrived too late for the battle. Lord William Stark was beheaded by Raymund in that battle, but William's brother Artos killed Raymund.
• In 299 AC Mance Rayder tries to breach the wall. The NW was only a 1000 man strong in 298 AC, and half of that in 299 AC.

So, we know of 5 giant wildling armies invading the North, and 6 King's-Beyond-the-Wall (including Joramun at the time of the NK, but Joramun joined the Starks in defeating the NK), over the course of 3000 years ago. BUT 3 out of 5 happened in the course of at the most the last 300 years, while the NW dwindles from 10000 man strong to a 1000 man strong in that same time. And each time a Lord of WF was killed in such an attack. And then I'm nto even mentioning the imprecise references to Jaehaerys and Alysane coming to the "aid" of the NW to fight wildlings. Since Lord Ellard Stark had a brother, it seems unlikely that the wildling army that Jaehaerys and Alysane fought  (allegedly according to songs) were Bael's. So we're looking at 4 threats in 300 years, and half of those ended up killing the Lord Stark, and 2 happened in the past 75 years.

Obvioiusly the NW has become very ineffective.

Yes. I am extremely dubious of the history as told to the readers and in-world characters. This is clearly part of the problem. Cutting the north off to their indigenous people and culture has lead to a decline is understanding. The author was careful to set this up as a long running issue. And that includes the deeds of Queen Alysanne and Jaehaerys and those two just adding more negative issues to that development.

There is a such thing as a fall of feudalism, and I think where we are in the story is that turning point, and within a short amount of time Westeros is going to be changed and all of these regular practices and ideals are going to be seen with fresh eyes.

There is no way the author is going to start the series one way, take us through seven books of torture and hell on all sides, just to put us right back at the beginning. That is quite honestly the opposite of story telling.

[cpg2016]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, those are eyewitnesses about Others and zombies out there beyond the Wall. But that doesn't mean the black brothers all have to understand how dangerous they are to everyone - and the same goes for the people south of the Wall, even if they believe they existed. However, those people who do believe the Others are a major threat to all of Westeros (or humanity in general) don't make a good job at trying to convince others that this is the case. In fact, they make no such attempts whatsoever after Alliser Thorne fails.

Once you accept that the Others are real, there are a whole bunch of stories about how they are omnicidal ice demons to convince you of the threat.  And what, exactly, is the Watch supposed to do?  Letters are sent to all the major lords asking for help, they try and send proof to Kings Landing (where Tyrion only dismisses them because he doesn't want to look foolish), what more can they do?  There is literally nothing else.  The North, which might be expected to believe/aid them, is in chaos thanks to Theon and the Boltons.  Give me one more idea of what the Watch is supposed to do, and maybe I'll agree.

Quote

Bowen Marsh isn't a racist. He just views the wildlings as untrustworthy uncivilized savages. That is, perhaps, cultural chauvinism but race doesn't figure into that. And he is completely right in his assessment that the ways of the Seven Kingdoms and the ways of the wildlings are incompatible. Their culture based on raiding and the stealing of women and the unwillingness to accept the feudal society of the Seven Kingdoms make it impossible for the people and lords of the Seven Kingdoms to not see them as nothing but a danger.

Well technically his attitude towards the giants makes him a racist, but the gist of your argument is correct.

But he's wrong in that just because the wildlings aren't compatible with Westerosi culture, does not mean they should be allowed to die and become wights.  He KNOWS that is what happens to the dead, and it's pretty obvious that a living human of ANY stripe is more culturally compatible with his cultural norms than an undead zombie.  His bigotry (and yes, that is what it is) makes him unable to see past his own prejudices, even when he admits that those prejudices are wrong.  And he doesn't understand that is mission is not to keep wildlings from raiding the North (which is technically the job of the Warden of the North) but to keep the Others from getting past the wall.

Are his blind spots realistic and understandable?  Yes, of course, which is why he's a great antagonist.  He believes he's doing right by the Watch.  But it doesn't make him any less an idiot or a danger to the world of the living.  IRL there were plenty of people who genuinely believed that Jim Crow laws were for the benefit of black people as well as white, but that doesn't make those people any less stupid or bigoted or unknowingly evil, and Bowen Marsh falls in the same category.

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Jon Snow took that vow of his own free will. Nobody forced him to do that. He knew the consequences. And it is not that he doesn't understand what his actual duties are. He does. That is made very obvious in his second last chapter. But he just doesn't care anymore when he receives the Pink Letter.

Right.  But again, since the mutineers were planning their treason long before the arrival of the Pink Letter, this doesn't exculpate them from either the action of their crime or the intent.  They want Jon gone because of his (perfectly legal, within-his-oaths) attitude towards the wildlings, not his much less ethically-okay response to the Pink Letter.

Quote

The wildlings aren't worth all that much as a fighting force or anything, really. Yarwyck points out that it is rather difficult to use them as builders, reducing the potential to use them as a workforce to make the other castles habitable and strengthen the defenses of the Wall. And one also assumes that they could be used to throw stones on the wights down before the Wall. But that's it.

This is debatable.  But there are two more important things to note.  One, as Jon explicitly says (and none of his advisers can rebut), even a starving woman or child south of the Wall, is one less wight to fight once the Others come.

And second, the Others cannot pass the Wall.  Which means, Jon's priority is to man the Wall and make sure no one climbs or goes around.  All he really needs for that are warm bodies and sharp eyes, which the wildlings CAN provide.  Also, many of the wildlings are competent fighters.  Their lack of discipline makes the collectively not a great army, but individually they seem to be quite brave and competent.

Quote

there is no chance that those men stand any chance against the Others. Mance realized that they could not.

Until Sam realizes that dragonglass kills the Others, no one stands a chance.  Waymar Royce is the son of a lord, and trained in arms, and he had no shot.  Literally one Other could kill the entire Seven Kingdoms, given enough time, if no one had Valyrian steel (we suspect) or obsidian.

[The Commentator]

14 hours ago, Take Me 2 Your Leader said:

Even if all this were true, this does not in any manner excuse what Jon did.  He had no right to interfere with the Bolton's activities.  He most certainly had no right to do what he was about to do:  lead a bunch of wildlings to attack the Warden of the North.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Once you accept that the Others are real, there are a whole bunch of stories about how they are omnicidal ice demons to convince you of the threat.  And what, exactly, is the Watch supposed to do?  Letters are sent to all the major lords asking for help, they try and send proof to Kings Landing (where Tyrion only dismisses them because he doesn't want to look foolish), what more can they do?  There is literally nothing else.  The North, which might be expected to believe/aid them, is in chaos thanks to Theon and the Boltons.  Give me one more idea of what the Watch is supposed to do, and maybe I'll agree.

George himself repeatedly compared the threat of the Others to climate change in the real world. We know it is a thing, but there a people who like to pretend it is not a thing - or that we cannot do anything about it - because it suits their short-term goals (and being human they only live a couple of decades and can afford to literally shit on posterity). But this doesn't mean that the people who know it is a thing should not continue to do anything in their power to convince others that this is really a thing and change the minds of the people who reject it is a thing.

This comparison also shows that the Others are imagined by a George as a threat that pretty much transcends everything. The Others can only be defeated if the people of Westeros (and perhaps even large portions of the population of western Essos) work together. If they don't, they are doomed. The idea that a Watch-wilding-Northmen coalition could defeat the Others is ridiculous.

In that sense everything that Jon and Stannis are doing is nonsensical and counterproductive on pretty much any level. The goal would be to try convince everybody that the Others are a real threat and then work together to stop them, not involve yourself in local politics and conflicts that are weakening yourself and your potential allies. Jon and Stannis are shooting themselves in the foot. They know it. Roose, Ramsay, Cersei, etc. do not. Because neither Jon nor Stannis ever made an attempt to explain things to them.

If letters and one envoy doesn't help you have to sent more letters and more envoys

Writing letters is definitely not enough. We see what can happen to a letter addressed to a king in the case of Stannis. Had Pylos not used the letter from Castle Black to teach Davos read neither Stannis nor Melisandre would have ever learned about the threat the NW faces.

A way to go would be to convince a significant lord of the threat and then have him act as your spokesperson to convince others. Davos could have tried to do that when he talked to Lord Manderly. But the Others never even came up. That is not exactly the way to defeat them. Never mentioning them.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well technically his attitude towards the giants makes him a racist, but the gist of your argument is correct.

Well, it is an established fact that the giants are a different race and a somewhat simpler folk. 

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

But he's wrong in that just because the wildlings aren't compatible with Westerosi culture, does not mean they should be allowed to die and become wights.  He KNOWS that is what happens to the dead, and it's pretty obvious that a living human of ANY stripe is more culturally compatible with his cultural norms than an undead zombie.  His bigotry (and yes, that is what it is) makes him unable to see past his own prejudices, even when he admits that those prejudices are wrong.  And he doesn't understand that is mission is not to keep wildlings from raiding the North (which is technically the job of the Warden of the North) but to keep the Others from getting past the wall.

Again, that depends on the question whether a large wight army of tens of thousands of wildlings can become a real threat to the Wall. They don't know that as of yet. And if the Wall is breached or destroyed or circumvented by the Others somehow (say, by freezing the sea or simply have the wights swim or float across the Bay of Ice) then it should not matter whether tens of thousands or merely a few hundred are coming. They will quickly create more of their kind once they have reached the lands south of the Wall.

Now, not to make a mistake - there certainly would be a moral obligation to take refugees, both for the NW as well as the kings and lords of the Seven Kingdoms if they were running from a mortal enemy.

What complicates things is the following:

1. Mance and his wildlings came as a threat both to the NW and the Seven Kingdoms. They wanted to breach the Wall and kill all the crows and subsequently take lands, food, and resources from the Northmen and the other people of the Seven Kingdoms. That qualifies as an act of war.

2. More importantly, the threat the NW faces is not a mortal enemy. It is a supernatural threat that may threat humanity. The duty of the NW is to fight that supernatural enemy, and they are not supposed care about any individual people while they are fighting against that enemy. That is why they wear no crowns, win no glory, and father no children. If they have to kill or allow hundreds or thousands to die to save humanity or defeat the ancient enemy then that's what they are supposed to do.

If Jon had the resources available - or knew that the North had the resources - to feed and clothe the wildlings he could take them all in. That would then cause not as many problems as it does now. But he hasn't those resources. I'd still say he should try to take the wildlings in who come knocking at the door. But sending an expedition to Hardhome overland is simply suicide. It's going to accomplish nothing and instead even adding more wights to the Others (the men he intended to send).

Jon's main responsibility is the Wall and the NW. If the Others are not stopped at the Wall it should be almost impossible to defeat them.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Are his blind spots realistic and understandable?  Yes, of course, which is why he's a great antagonist.  He believes he's doing right by the Watch.  But it doesn't make him any less an idiot or a danger to the world of the living.  IRL there were plenty of people who genuinely believed that Jim Crow laws were for the benefit of black people as well as white, but that doesn't make those people any less stupid or bigoted or unknowingly evil, and Bowen Marsh falls in the same category.

He has a good point about the nature of the majority of the wildlings and the fact that they simply don't have the resources to feed them. Taking the wildlings in weakens the NW, however you spin it. The Others might profit more from that than from all those wights they might be able to create at Hardhome. 

Marsh also has very good reasons - the same or even better than Jon has for going to war against the Boltons or trying to save his sister - to not trust the wildlings. He fought in battle against them and saw them kill his brothers. They did not ask the NW for help or came as refugees. They came as conquerors and murderers.

This has nothing to to with bigotry, racism, or anything of that sort.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Right.  But again, since the mutineers were planning their treason long before the arrival of the Pink Letter, this doesn't exculpate them from either the action of their crime or the intent.  They want Jon gone because of his (perfectly legal, within-his-oaths) attitude towards the wildlings, not his much less ethically-okay response to the Pink Letter.

You have still not proven that this is the case. It is still quite likely that Marsh and his cabal read the Pink Letter in advance and then made plans to kill Lord Snow should he declare war on Ramsay Bolton.

And quite honestly, even if Marsh was intending to kill Jon for a very long time and they were always finding excuses why not to kill the Lord Commander this night it doesn't really matter. A murder that is just contemplated isn't a crime. When they killed him he was a deserter and therefore they did the right thing. If I contemplated your murder for quite some time only to eventually kill you in self defense or to save another person from being killed by you I'd still not be a murderer despite the fact that I was willing to become one.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

This is debatable.  But there are two more important things to note.  One, as Jon explicitly says (and none of his advisers can rebut), even a starving woman or child south of the Wall, is one less wight to fight once the Others come.

Correct, but you can only make that comparison if you know for a fact that the Hardhome wildlings would have reached the Wall along with the men sent there. If it worked, and if there was enough food to feed the wildlings and the men of the Watch it would have been (possibly) a reasonable plan. But even then it would have been very risky.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

And second, the Others cannot pass the Wall.  Which means, Jon's priority is to man the Wall and make sure no one climbs or goes around.  All he really needs for that are warm bodies and sharp eyes, which the wildlings CAN provide.  Also, many of the wildlings are competent fighters.  Their lack of discipline makes the collectively not a great army, but individually they seem to be quite brave and competent.

The men (and few women) we meet as characters are pretty good fighters, yes. But those are the elite. We know that Mance came with his entire people, old and young, weak and strong, etc. And many of the better fighters should have been the ones Stannis' people actually slew, injured, or crippled on the battlefield. They would have been those who did no run.

If a majority of the wildlings would be willing to properly man the Wall and do their duty there they certainly could be an asset. But then, this is where their mentality and the food problem comes in. Men manning the Wall need more food than people sitting on their asses doing nothing. And the stores of the Watch are laid out for about a thousand Watchmen, give or take. Stannis already took a lot of their provisions, and then Jon began to hand more food to the prisoners Stannis left at the Wall. Tormund's people are than added to those. If the Others were to attack tomorrow this would be a pretty good strategy. But if they bide their time for another year or even more it was the wrong decision.

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Until Sam realizes that dragonglass kills the Others, no one stands a chance.  Waymar Royce is the son of a lord, and trained in arms, and he had no shot.  Literally one Other could kill the entire Seven Kingdoms, given enough time, if no one had Valyrian steel (we suspect) or obsidian.

That is an exaggeration. I'm pretty sure you can kill an Other, too, if you crush him beneath a rock or use comparable force to physically destroy him. Even a conventional fire that burns hot enough might kill an Other, although it should be very difficult to keep it hot enough in an Other's immediate presence. And I'm pretty sure wildfire and dragonfire work even better, but then, the people at the Wall don't have access to either right now.

[Darkstream]

On 2017-6-15 at 8:15 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

Upon making their vow for the Night's Watch they say  I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

Jon had no intent to win a crown, nor to bask in any glory.

On 2017-6-15 at 8:15 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

I shall live and die at my post.

   He would have gone south of the Wall into North of Westeros to remove the Boltons from power in Winterfell. He has to die at his post. He cannot take any side on any Westeros war.

I think you are taking that a little bit too literally. I suppose all of the men who died at the fist of the first men were oath breakers as well. The gull of them, to not die at Castle Black, the damn filthy, dirty oath breakers.

On 2017-6-15 at 8:15 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

Aemon Targaryen was Maester of the Night Watch. When Robert Baratheon defied the Mad King, Aerys II he did not leave the Night's Watch to join his family against him. When Prince Rhaegar was killed by Robert he stayed on the Watch. When Aerys II  and 2 of Rhaegar's sons were murdered and the rest Targaryens were exiled he did not leave the Night's Watch because they seek no glory wear no crowns; defend no crown, even when the King holding the Crown is his family (Aemon's case), they die on their post.

This is not an equivalent comparison. I don't recall Robert threatening the Watch, and giving an ultimatum to the ninety year old, blind maester, in which if he failed to comply, he would have his heart cut out and eaten.

On 2017-6-15 at 8:15 AM, HallowedMarcus said:

Jon Snow broke his vow when he wanted to leave his post as Lord Commander and use the Night's Watch to fight for his family against the Boltons.

Jon had no intentions of using the Nights Watch to fight for his family.