what would have happened?

[Graydon Hicks]

i just read a fanfic that posed an interesting scenario, and i wanted to get others' opinions on what might have happened if both rhaegar and robert had died at the trident, ned managed to execute gregor and armory loch for the deaths of elai and the children, and managed to reach lyanna and get her to a maester in time. if you can think of other variations, have at it.

[Tyg Doggett]

Did Varys send Aegon to Essos?

[Graydon Hicks]

well, from the fic i read, doesnt look like it, though dany and viserys do escape from dragonstone. but vissy boy still thinks he should be king, calls jon the bastard king, and still arranges for dany to marry drogo. jon has made several attempts to bring them home tho. and here the real kicker in the story, take it how you want. lyanna, the queen mother? ends up remarrying, oberyn, and shares his bed with ellaria. now jon has three martell half siblings. they also arranged for cersie to marry stannis. which looks to be a better marriage than to robert. and mycella, black haired and green eyed, is their first born, and betrothed to jon to placate tywin. its a fascinating read so far.

[Graydon Hicks]

now, i dont mean you have to use this exact scenario, but just the base: the both robert and rhaegar die at the ruby ford. extrapolate how you want from there.

[The Dew]

Nice one; I guess Tywin and Aerys are still alive, since it appears to be a tie at Ruby Ford or we don't know who actually prevailed or if it had been a pyrrhic victory for either side.

Input: Tywin sides with Aerys - Output: 50-50 chances of losing or prevailing over the other Houses

Input: Tywin sides with Baratheons, Starks, etc. - Output: Probable loss for Aerys & Co.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Tywin decides who he wants to be King between Stannis or Viserys and marries Cersei to whoever that is.

I don't see Oberyn and Lyanna ever being friends if she had survived.

[The Commentator]

9 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i just read a fanfic that posed an interesting scenario, and i wanted to get others' opinions on what might have happened if both rhaegar and robert had died at the trident, ned managed to execute gregor and armory loch for the deaths of elai and the children, and managed to reach lyanna and get her to a maester in time. if you can think of other variations, have at it.

King Aerys would still be in power if Robert and Rhaegar had died at the Trident.  Ned would not be in a position to hunt down Gregor and Amory.  He would have lost his head when the royal forces found him.  Viserys was already the heir, the Prince of Dragonstone.  Lyanna's child would be a bastard and its life would be in danger from the wrath of the loyalists.  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Tywin decides who he wants to be King between Stannis or Viserys and marries Cersei to whoever that is.

I don't see Oberyn and Lyanna ever being friends if she had survived.

I could see Tywin coming to the side of the rebellion but rather than Stannis he may take kingship for himself or install Jon Arryn (or Hoster Tully)... I don't know how his relationships with the other high lords was at the time.

[Renly's Banana]

Tywin would still side with the rebels and would fight to be Hand immediately after Aerys dies. Ned might dispute this, but not badly enough to cause trouble, like in canon. King most likely becomes Viserys, actually. Robert was the glue holding that union, if he dies, none of the big parties would settle on one heir. Stannis would have very little rights or claims, since Robert never actually sat the throne, and -- again, like in canon -- nobody would want Stannis as king. I don't think even Stannis would want this (Storm's End would be his now). Both Tywin and Jon Arryn would want a young and pliable new Targaryen, and Tywin would marry his daughter to him, with Jon (and possibly Stannis) taking some role in the council. 

Ned goes back north, Viserys and Daenerys return to the capital, Dorne remains pissed. Same as it ever was. 

[Graydon Hicks]

of course, there is the chance that viserys begins to show his own madness, like in cannon, and the lords may think "Hey, at least we got that boy jon waiting in the wings." bastards have risen to rule their house before, when all the males heirs have died, it happend to the starks at least once. they could legitimize him acclimation once they pull the second generation crazy down. i doubt the lords would be willing to put up with two aerys's in a row. or viserys may be a good ruler, i dont know how much of his crazy came because of having to live on the run in poverty in the free cities, with only his pride as a targaryen left to him.

and i almost think it dornes own fault why they are always so pissed. almost. there just isnt that much  that they have to offer to the rest of the realm, outside of making sure the whole land mass of westeros in under a single reign. and they hold to their pride almost as bad as the lannisters and targs. and their base culture is so different from everyone elses that they seem to be very much unliked outside their own borders.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 6/14/2017 at 11:41 PM, Graydon Hicks said:

i just read a fanfic that posed an interesting scenario, and i wanted to get others' opinions on what might have happened if both rhaegar and robert had died at the trident, ned managed to execute gregor and armory loch for the deaths of elai and the children, and managed to reach lyanna and get her to a maester in time. if you can think of other variations, have at it.

Something would have to be written so the story could continue. How would you rewrite a celebrated authors seminal work?

[Graydon Hicks]

man, you are just a downer on these topics. whats the harm in thinking outside of what was done? let us explore the possibilities of time and thought, and see where it leads us. what would happen of this changed or that? if the man turned left at the crossroads, instead of right? if a life was spared instead of taken, if a man slipped in the hall and broke his neck, instead of going on to assassinate the lord in his hall. let your imaginations run wild. we who love fanfictions, and hypothesis, we love our authors' works and characters, but we cant help but to wonder at the "what ifs". 

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

man, you are just a downer on these topics. whats the harm in thinking outside of what was done? let us explore the possibilities of time and thought, and see where it leads us. what would happen of this changed or that? if the man turned left at the crossroads, instead of right? if a life was spared instead of taken, if a man slipped in the hall and broke his neck, instead of going on to assassinate the lord in his hall. let your imaginations run wild. we who love fanfictions, and hypothesis, we love our authors' works and characters, but we cant help but to wonder at the "what ifs". 

So, how would write the story differently?

[Graydon Hicks]

for one, i would avoid the shere amount of favorite character death we see. a few is fine, keeps things interesting, but when you consistently kill of the favored heroes, just because the fans like them, that tends to earn a few bad letters. kill ned, ok, but lets avoid killing robb, or at least until after he has a child. lets avoid the issue of the freys entirely, (the man looks like a vulture, rather than a weasel, IMO), but have robb die in battle, tragically, but heroically, like on gregors sword or something.

or farther back, to the rebellion. sure, rhaegar die at the crossing, jaime kill aerys, but let elia and her children escape to dragonstone, be in exile in essos like viserys and dany, or in hiding, always hunted, with subtle help from the martells, as they scheme to retake the throne for aegon.

or have rhaegar, elia, aegon, and rheanys live, and rhaegar has ned turn jon over to live them, but he looked down from elia, her daguther, and the martells, not because jon is a bastard, if he is that, but because his mother is the reason for the war, in their eyes, that lyanne is why rhaegar shamed elia., and they resent him much like how cat resented him in the canon. or not, let them love him as one of their own, seein ghim as the sole innocent of the sordid affair.

let jon grow up with aegon, as brothers, or let him be exiled, so to speak, to stay with his stark relatives.

or even, instead of jon going to the wall, he leaves for essos, to live as a sell sword, and eventually meets daenerys and viserys, swearing to their service.

or instead of robert wanting sansa to marry joffrey (that little evil golden shit) he promises myrcella to robb, or brandon, or takes jon back as a squire.

the paths to take are endless, if you just look for them.

i admit, i love fanfiction, it delights my soul, but you cant enjoy fanfiction without first enjoying the original material, without understanding where the fan diverges from the canon.

and with this series, i have sound several, some finished, some not, fan fictions that are truly well written, with a good appreciation for the source material. i long to be such a writer, i just lack the innate writing instincts. those i have good stories bouncing around my head.

[ravenous reader]

7 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

whats the harm in thinking outside of what was done? let us explore the possibilities of time and thought, and see where it leads us. what would happen of this changed or that? if the man turned left at the crossroads, instead of right? if a life was spared instead of taken...

 

The Road Not Taken

 

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,

And sorry I could not travel both

And be one traveler, long I stood

And looked down one as far as I could

To where it bent in the undergrowth;

 

Then took the other, as just as fair,

And having perhaps the better claim,

Because it was grassy and wanted wear;

Though as for that the passing there

Had worn them really about the same,

 

And both that morning equally lay

In leaves no step had trodden black.

Oh, I kept the first for another day!

Yet knowing how way leads on to way,

I doubted if I should ever come back.

 

I shall be telling this with a sigh

Somewhere ages and ages hence:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

 

ROBERT FROST

 

'If a life was spared not taken' -- the road not taken!  This is the important one...

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn IV

Ser Rodrik cleared his throat. "Lord Baelish once, ah …" His thought trailed off uncertainly in search of the polite word.

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place."

Ser Rodrik's fingers fumbled once again for nonexistent whiskers. "Littlefinger sits on the small council now."

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VII

She had seen men practice at their swordplay near every day of her life, had viewed half a hundred tourneys in her time, but this [Bronn vs. Ser Vardis] was something different and deadlier: a dance where the smallest misstep meant death. And as she watched, the memory of another duel in another time came back to Catelyn Stark, as vivid as if it had been yesterday.

They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her.

That fight was over almost as soon as it began. Brandon was a man grown, and he drove Littlefinger all the way across the bailey and down the water stair, raining steel on him with every step, until the boy was staggering and bleeding from a dozen wounds. "Yield!" he called, more than once, but Petyr would only shake his head and fight on, grimly. When the river was lapping at their ankles, Brandon finally ended it, with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr's rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured "Cat" as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that.

That was the last time she had seen his face … until the day she was brought before him in King's Landing.

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI

"Lord Hoster is bedridden, my lady," her father's steward explained. When had that good man grown so old and grey? "He instructed me to bring you to him at once."

"I'll take her." Edmure escorted her up the water stair and across the lower bailey, where Petyr Baelish and Brandon Stark had once crossed swords for her favor. The massive sandstone walls of the keep loomed above them. As they pushed through a door between two guardsmen in fish-crest helms, she asked, "How bad is he?" dreading the answer even as she said the words.

Edmure's look was somber. "He will not be with us long, the maesters say. The pain is … constant, and grievous."

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI

"Our duty." Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. Then her mother had died and her father had told her that she must be the lady of Riverrun now, and she had done that too. And when Lord Hoster promised her to Brandon Stark, she had thanked him for making her such a splendid match.

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

If Littlefinger hadn't been spared, or if Cat had married Littlefinger instead, would there have been a war?

[BalerionTheCat]

If both Rhaegar and Robert had died at the trident, I'm not sure Tywin would have joined the rebels. I suppose he would have finally supported Aerys. Maybe expecting to marry Cersei to Viserys. But anyway, I don't see how it would have helped Lyanna. Both Rhaella and Joanna certainly had maesters, and it didn't help them. Jon would have been safe from Robert. But a bastard anyway.