Jon, Wylla, and Meera: A Comprehensive Theory of the Secret Babies of Starfall

[Rhae_Valarie]

9 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Interesting. Have you considered that the reason why the Daynes like Ned is that he was honorable to a fault? That after he killed the man who held the single most famed blade in the known world, rather than taking it as a prize of war or selling it to some wealthy house, like the Lannisters, he returned it to House Dayne

If the Lannisters had returned Ice to Cat after killing Ned, would she have named her next son after Tywin?If the Daynes believed that a Stark had impregnated their daughter as well as one of their serving girls, rose up against the dynasty they supported leading to the death of their prince, and then killed their son and pride of their house Arthur Dayne, do you really think they would consider Ned honorable? I don't buy it.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

If the Lannisters had returned Ice to Cat after killing Ned, would she have named her next son after Tywin?If the Daynes believed that a Stark had impregnated their daughter as well as one of their serving girls, rose up against the dynasty they supported leading to the death of their prince, and then killed their son and pride of their house Arthur Dayne, do you really think they would consider Ned honorable? I don't buy it.

Again, assumptions based on nothing. We do not know if Ned knocked up Ashara, or a serving girl. It is entirely possible that as one of the oldest houses on the continent, a display of honor and respect from the head of another ancient house would go a long way to mending any hurt between them. The Daynes, upon understanding Arthur's role in the rebellion and the birth of Jon Snow, they very well may hold Ned as a hero, thus naming their son and heir after him. Also, it is pretty obvious that the Daynes know what is up with Jon. They would have to be in on keeping the secret 

[Rhae_Valarie]

Sorry, I don't think I was super clear. What I mean is that in universe the "explanation" is that Ned impregnated Wylla, who seems to be a member of the serving class, due to her eventual status as a Wet Nurse. We know that this is the "official" story because that is what Ned himself tells Robert, and what Erdric Dayne, who has been raised at Starfall, has been told. In addition to the "official" story, there are rumours that Ned impregnated Ashara, but Ser Barristan heavily implies it was actually Brandon Stark. So in universe everyone thinks that the Starks impregnated  either Wylla (who I was referring to as a serving girl) or Ashara, or both. Then Ned kills Arthur and Ashara kills herself, supposedly because of Arthur's death and her pregnancy. So according to the way that everyone in Westeros believes these events to have unfolded, you would think the Daynes would hate the Starks as much as the Starks hate the Lannisters. And I'm afraid I must disagree that returning Dawn would be enough to mend wounds this deep. Which, in my mind, means that these events didn't actually unfold the way everyone in universe thinks that they did. My theory is simply a speculative attempt to follow one train of thought through all the way of how things could have really happened. I am by no means claiming that it is fact! Basically I just want to get a rough ideas of some of things that could have happened so that when Winds finally comes out, I can be looking for certain things that might rule out certain theories and narrow down the possibilities.

it is a very interesting thought that the Daynes could have respected Ned for protecting Rhaegar's son! Nice catch!! However, I think they would have seen that Ned was more interested in protecting his nephew than one of the last members of the Targ dynasty. I think that if the Daynes were interested in supporting a Targ return to power, they would have put their time and energy into recovering Dany and Viserys, who were both ahead of Jon in the succession and true born to boot. And I think anyone who knows Ned would understand that, as you rightfully pointed out, he was very honorable. Much too honorable to betray the King he just put on the throne in order to seize power for his own kin. So if the Daynes were interested in putting a Targ on the throne again, I think they would have seen Ned as a bit of a dead end.

thanks for the feedback! You've given me some interesting things to think about!

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Again, assumptions based on nothing. We do not know if Ned knocked up Ashara, or a serving girl. It is entirely possible that as one of the oldest houses on the continent, a display of honor and respect from the head of another ancient house would go a long way to mending any hurt between them. The Daynes, upon understanding Arthur's role in the rebellion and the birth of Jon Snow, they very well may hold Ned as a hero, thus naming their son and heir after him. Also, it is pretty obvious that the Daynes know what is up with Jon. They would have to be in on keeping the secret 

 

[Blackfish09]

I agree that something seems off about Jon and Meera being born the same year, when Ned and Howland had supposedly been fighting a war and trying to save Lyanna. No evidence to back it up or anything of the sort, just a feeling.

[Nevets]

Wylla Manderly is described as being 15 at the meeting with Davos.  Also, in the Appendix of AFFC she is specifically stated as being 15 years old.  This would put her birth too late to be Ashara Dayne's child.

Also, when I think of green flame, my first thought is wildfire.  I think that the Patchface prophecy is more likely about the Battle of the Blackwater, where green flames featured prominently.  I'm not sure about the other colors, but blue and black are more associated with fire.

Also, Edric is not the same name as Eddard.  While Edric Dayne could potentially be named after Ned Stark, it seems pretty thin.  Ned is more of a nickname, not a given name.

[Rhae_Valarie]

1 hour ago, Blackfish09 said:

I agree that something seems off about Jon and Meera being born the same year, when Ned and Howland had supposedly been fighting a war and trying to save Lyanna. No evidence to back it up or anything of the sort, just a feeling.

Exactly! And I'm torn between "red herring" and "something's up here". I think we won't know for sure until the next book is out and maybe not even until the last book. But I wanted to play out the possibility in my theory!

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Sorry, I don't think I was super clear. What I mean is that in universe the "explanation" is that Ned impregnated Wylla, who seems to be a member of the serving class, due to her eventual status as a Wet Nurse. We know that this is the "official" story because that is what Ned himself tells Robert, and what Erdric Dayne, who has been raised at Starfall, has been told. In addition to the "official" story, there are rumours that Ned impregnated Ashara, but Ser Barristan heavily implies it was actually Brandon Stark. So in universe everyone thinks that the Starks impregnated  either Wylla (who I was referring to as a serving girl) or Ashara, or both. Then Ned kills Arthur and Ashara kills herself, supposedly because of Arthur's death and her pregnancy. So according to the way that everyone in Westeros believes these events to have unfolded, you would think the Daynes would hate the Starks as much as the Starks hate the Lannisters. And I'm afraid I must disagree that returning Dawn would be enough to mend wounds this deep. Which, in my mind, means that these events didn't actually unfold the way everyone in universe thinks that they did. My theory is simply a speculative attempt to follow one train of thought through all the way of how things could have really happened. I am by no means claiming that it is fact! Basically I just want to get a rough ideas of some of things that could have happened so that when Winds finally comes out, I can be looking for certain things that might rule out certain theories and narrow down the possibilities.

I see, sorry about the confusion. Yes the in universe explanations are what Bob and Cat think. Bob is a womanizer so he has little curiosity. Cat is curious but Ned shoots her down 

2 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

it is a very interesting thought that the Daynes could have respected Ned for protecting Rhaegar's son! Nice catch!!

Thanks. The respect would also be for Ned treating the legacy of Douse Dayne with the utmost respect. The way he tells the story of the TOJ fight exemplifies the honor and knightly core of Arthur. I do believe Ned would have explicitly stated that he would raise Jon in the north and not present him as a claimant to the Iron throne. 

2 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

it is a very interesting thought that the Daynes could have respected Ned for protecting Rhaegar's son! Nice catch!! However, I think they would have seen that Ned was more interested in protecting his nephew than one of the last members of the Targ dynasty. I think that if the Daynes were interested in supporting a Targ return to power, they would have put their time and energy into recovering Dany and Viserys, who were both ahead of Jon in the succession and true born to boot. And I think anyone who knows Ned would understand that, as you rightfully pointed out, he was very honorable. Much too honorable to betray the King he just put on the throne in order to seize power for his own kin. So if the Daynes were interested in putting a Targ on the throne again, I think they would have seen Ned as a bit of a dead end.

 I think that the Daynes would understand that Arthur was doing his duty, that he performed said duty with honor and that even though he was killed by Ned, he wasn't ever put down, disrespected or dishonored, and being the house with an office that exemplifies all things knightly, to the point where the office remains empty until a worthy individual arises, the Elder Daynes would understand how important Ned's decisions were 

[Rhae_Valarie]

49 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Wylla Manderly is described as being 15 at the meeting with Davos.  Also, in the Appendix of AFFC she is specifically stated as being 15 years old.  This would put her birth too late to be Ashara Dayne's child.

Also, when I think of green flame, my first thought is wildfire.  I think that the Patchface prophecy is more likely about the Battle of the Blackwater, where green flames featured prominently.  I'm not sure about the other colors, but blue and black are more associated with fire.

Also, Edric is not the same name as Eddard.  While Edric Dayne could potentially be named after Ned Stark, it seems pretty thin.  Ned is more of a nickname, not a given name.

Maybe you can help me out here. I was kind of thinking that the appendixes were a reflection of what the characters think. For example, Tommen and Joffrey were listed as Baratheons, even though we know they are Lannister all the way through. Jon is listed as Ned's son, though we know he isn't. I thought that since Davos had thought Wylla was 15, it listed her as 15 because that was the information available to us in universe at this point... but if you clarify the status of statements in the appendixes for me, I would really appreciate it!

[Nevets]

13 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Maybe you can help me out here. I was kind of thinking that the appendixes were a reflection of what the characters think. For example, Tommen and Joffrey were listed as Baratheons, even though we know they are Lannister all the way through. Jon is listed as Ned's son, though we know he isn't. I thought that since Davos had thought Wylla was 15, it listed her as 15 because that was the information available to us in universe at this point... but if you clarify the status of statements in the appendixes for me, I would really appreciate it!

I don't know exactly how it works, but she is, I believe, mentioned as being 15 in the appendix of AFFC, which is before her first appearance in ADWD, which suggests that the 15 age is accurate.  Given that green is a color associated with the Manderlys, her dying her hair that color is likely her assertion of her identity to the Freys and the rest of the audience.

[Rhae_Valarie]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

I don't know exactly how it works, but she is, I believe, mentioned as being 15 in the appendix of AFFC, which is before her first appearance in ADWD, which suggests that the 15 age is accurate.  Given that green is a color associated with the Manderlys, her dying her hair that color is likely her assertion of her identity to the Freys and the rest of the audience.

And that's the other thing. Parts of AFFC are set at the same time as parts of ADWD. I was under the impression that the 15 in the appendix was referencing Davos' initial meeting with her in ADWD, since even though they are different books the timelines are happening concurrently, until the end of ADWD, which surpasses AFFC. So I don't know. The timeline of Robert's Rebellion is all ver confusing as well. With the confusing timelines in mind, I figured Wylla was close enough in age to go with it. This theory is really just me following through with one possibility and I put it on the forums so people could point out inconsistencies or weak parts. I'm anxiously awaiting TWOW so that I can look for more direct evidence that either supports or disproves this possibility. Thank you for the feedback! 

[Blackfish09]

18 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Exactly! And I'm torn between "red herring" and "something's up here". I think we won't know for sure until the next book is out and maybe not even until the last book. But I wanted to play out the possibility in my theory!

I personally love the theory. I like that it is a good narrative theory, as in it would add to the story in an awesome way while adding layers to two of my favorite characters.

[Rhae_Valarie]

On 6/22/2017 at 11:24 AM, Blackfish09 said:

I personally love the theory. I like that it is a good narrative theory, as in it would add to the story in an awesome way while adding layers to two of my favorite characters.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! I definitely had fun coming up with it and I'm glad I could share it with others!! I think my favorite part of this theory (if true) is the way in which it would juxtapose Jaime and Arthur Dayne. The entire time through the series, people in Westeros have held Arthur up as the perfect knight, while Jaime is considered the worst. And yet Jaime never failed to protect his family and those he cared about, while (according to this theory) Arthur failed Ashara in a big way. It just makes Arthur seem like a more real, flawed character, to me.

[Weirwood Ghost]

A precedent to this theory is that of Gilly, who readers know she is made by Lord Commander Jon Snow (ironically) to swap her baby boy with that of Mance Rayder's baby boy. So contextually in this story it's possible.

Gilly is absolutely distraught. That is made abundantly clear and Maester Aemon's dialogue to Sam is really Martin's guide to the reader to take notice. Baby swapping is no small thing for a mother.

Ashara having to swap her baby whether or not it was Aerys, Brandons, Neds...was such a traumatic experience she took her life (or maybe not..we'll see). Whether Ashara is still alive in the story, she would've been devastated at having a baby swap.

As a mother, I would not be able to live with this, however I wouldn't throw myself to death, I'd go looking for my child

[Rhae_Valarie]

5 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

A precedent to this theory is that of Gilly, who readers know she is made by Lord Commander Jon Snow (ironically) to swap her baby boy with that of Mance Rayder's baby boy. So contextually in this story it's possible.

Gilly is absolutely distraught. That is made abundantly clear and Maester Aemon's dialogue to Sam is really Martin's guide to the reader to take notice. Baby swapping is no small thing for a mother.

Ashara having to swap her baby whether or not it was Aerys, Brandons, Neds...was such a traumatic experience she took her life (or maybe not..we'll see). Whether Ashara is still alive in the story, she would've been devastated at having a baby swap.

As a mother, I would not be able to live with this, however I wouldn't throw myself to death, I'd go looking for my child

Exactly! I feel that baby switching is quite common in the series and that this is an excellent comparison. I feel that this may have been how Wylla felt when Ned asked her to send her child away to protect Jon just as Jon asked Gilly to leave her baby to protect Aemon Steelsong. And there are so many parallels between Jon and Aemon anyway, it really fits together!

[Lady Maester]

Wow! I've been formulating a similar hypothesis, which presumes the father of Asharas baby to be either Rhaegar or Aerys. Concerning Aerys being the father, the only thing I couldn't find an answer for was why Aerys would rape Ashara, after he had vowed to be faithful to Rhaella. But you figured it out, and it makes perfect sense. Bravo! I also wonder if Rhaegar and Elia mutually agreed upon Ashara as the mother of the third dragon, and maybe he was the father of her stillborn. 

However, I'm not so sure that the Daynes wanted Arthur dead. I think it's more likely that Ned either kept a secret for them (I think the entire family has records of their history, and their involvement in the long night, I think they were involved in the prophecy, and the "taking" of Lyanna.) perhaps they made an agreement to keep each others secrets, the Daynes would keep quiet about Jon, maybe even spread a rumor or two, and Ned wouldn't tell Robert about their involvement with the death of Lyanna. I'm inclined to believe Ashara had a still birth, and that along with the news that Rhaegar was dead, that Arthur was dead, and that Lyanna had instead fulfilled the prophecy, she couldn't take it anymore. But that's only if Rhaegar was the father, not Aerys. if it was Aerys, she still has plenty of reasons to jump. 

 

Also, I read some of your replies and I agree, Aegon fits much better, if there was indeed a crazy baby swap. 

[Ser_Jon_General]

Ned's trip to Starfall has always seemed a lot more straightforward to me.  He needed a backup plan for Jon.

Assuming that Jon wasn't born with a full head of hair, Ned is left with a problem about what Jon might look like when he's grown.  Ned is going to have a problem if Jon grows silver hair as he will struggle to pass the child off as his with a random clearly-Valyrian woman.  It would simply raise too many questions.

So Ned goes to the only family in Westeros that have similar hair who are not only friendly towards him but are also not about to come under siege.  He can't go to the Celtigar or Velaryon seats, whilst both families have the right looks they're both about to receive a lot of attention from Robert and Ned has no reason to visit Claw Isle or Driftmark without raising a lot of questions.  The trip to Starfall gives enough time for hair to start growing, allowing Ned enough time to make a decision.  If Jon had grown the silver hair of his father then Ned could have left Jon with the Dayne family.

As it happens, Jon grows dark hair allowing him to pass as Ned's child and Ned uses the cover of returning Dawn as the reason for visiting Starfall (also bolstering Ned's reputation for honour) where he also requests a wet-nurse (Wylla) for Jon.

Another question arises though - do we even know for sure that Ashara was pregnant?  Her pregnancy may have simply been a cover story for Ned and Jon that was never required.  Add to the loss of her brother, the loss of her lover (whether Brandon through his death of Ned through his obligation to Catelyn), the final loss of the child she was going to raise may have tipped the balance and led to her suicide.

[foxberlin]

I'd never complain about too many hidden Targaryens in that story. Ancestry isn't something to be proud of. It doesn't come along as insurance for special skill or as reassuring love story. Babys are born from rape als well as from random sexual encounters or from the ambition of arranged marriages. I think that's what we'll find mirrored in the offspring of the last Targaryen king.

I buy into the theory that Aerys II had dearly loved Joanna Lannister, so the most notorious Lannisters, the twins, would be his children. As well as glorious Rhaegar and Daenerys, who were born from rape. For Jon nothing changes really, if he'd come from a sexual encounter with Ashara. Since he only despised the arranged marriage with his sister, Aerys would've probably been a whole lot nicer towards women of his own choice.

So, yes, I prefer A+A=J over R+L=J, even if there is a lack of evidence at this point.

[SummerSphinx]

I like to explore baby swapping stories. They cannot all be true, but as there has to be some swapping going on, it makes sense to consider an array of possibilities. I will need to go reread about Wylla Manderly. Interesting. I think Aerys rape theories are possible, though I flip- flop on them in my own mind. I like the Patchface quote.  I want to mull your ideas over, but I do think there is a tangle of babies and some swapping. Not sure Ned would trust Manderly, though.

It is entirely reasonable to consider Meera might be significant and possibly a swap for the following reasons:

1. I believe House Reed is a contact for the Children of the Forest. There are no maesters at Greywater Watch. This is significant if you believe some maesters are trying to rid the world of magic, Jojen dreamed Bran was a chained wolf, and Maester Luwin who wears a chain (without cruel intentions but based on his training) was continually dismissing Bran's dreams and questions. Howland Reed had enormous faith in Jojen's dreams. Why? Howland himself ventured out in his youth to the Isle of Faces. Howland seems like the sort of person who would care for a baby that wasn't his if he felt it was his mission or destiny...even beyond feelings of friendship for Starks. Look at how far Jojen and Meera are willing to go for Bran. Perhaps the CotF know they have to have enough of the right bloodlines available when Winter (the long night) arrives and they tap in to families like House Reed when they can. It is possible the CotF sent Jenny of Oldstones on purpose as well (that is a whole other thread, A Dragonfly among the Reeds, etc).

2. At the Tourney at Harrenhall, Howland had just left the Isle of Faces after a whole year  (with no mention of a wife.) To have a child the age of Meera, Jon and Robb, he would have had to have married between the Tourney and some point early in Robert's Rebellion (or impregnated the mother and married her later.) Ned married quickly to take Brandon's place and cement the alliance with the Tullys. Jon Arryn married Lysa. Of course, Howland could have married quickly for a variety of reasons, but I just want to mention the timing would have had to have been fast and the conception, too.

3. Many of Meera's crannog features strike me as learned behaviors - nurture over biological hardwiring.  She has learned to use crannogman techniques. She would need to be slight and athletic, but her coloring is fairly neutral (she isn't an obvious Targ, Baratheon, Lannister, etc, but brown hair and green eyes could mask a lot of things). Who knows, if crannogmen can breathe mud and are masters of camouflage, it may be a cover.

I haven't had time to think it all through, but I sometimes wonder if Howland married Ashara and raised one of the swapped babies.  Jojen is really Howland's by his wife (hidden Ashara).  If Meera and Jojen knew the KotLT story from both their mother and their father, it explains all of the attention to detail regarding who danced with Ashara.

If Howland believed it was foreseen he would raise a child that wasn't his own, I think he'd do it. Plus, he'd get a beautiful wife (possible). Plus, he'd be doing a great favor to House Stark. Plus, the child was a girl, so if he had any sons, his own heir would inherit. Plus, Meera may actually be the real child of Ashara, who wouldn't go along with the scheme if Howland rejected her babe. (Think of Sam's feelings for Gilly, and Tilly's feelings for her babe(s)). Another possibility is that Ashara agrees to go with Howland and a child not her own (like Gilly goes with Sam and a child that isn't hers).

Wylla (commoner/wetnurse to Jon) still mystifies me a bit.  

 

[Frey family reunion]

On Invalid Date at 9:58 PM, The Twinslayer said:

Interesting theory.

A few small things that don't preclude your theory being correct.

First, Ashara was never a lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing.  There is an old SSM from 1999 that says that but it is superceded by the world book which says Elia lived in Dragonstone at that time.  

 

I don't think this is correct.  We have this from Barristan Selmy:

Quote

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell.  Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice.  Not the queen, who was not present.  Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe would have been avoided.  His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions... though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

This certainly seems that Ashara was one of Elia's ladies in waiting at King's Landing even if it was only for a brief time. 

[Julia H.]

On 2017. 06. 15. at 11:13 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

So here’s my theory:

While living at King’s Landing as a companion to Princess Elia, Ashara Dayne was raped by the Mad King Aerys. Why? I believe for several reasons:

 1. The first is simply that Ashara was very beautiful, with the traditionally Targaryen feature of purple eyes. I think it would be within what we know about Aerys’ character to covet such a woman. We’ve also seen hints through details about his interactions with Joanna Lannister as well as Ser Barristan’s memories of his treatment of Rhaella that Aerys was violent and already a rapist.

2. It was a deliberate act to provoke Arthur Dayne. Arthur was a legendary knight and Rhaegar’s greatest supporter. We’ve been told that the conflict between Rhaegar and Aerys was reaching civil war proportions. Depriving Rhaegar of his greatest ally would be a smart move on Aerys’ part, but Arthur was a Kingsguard, who serve for life. Dismissing him out of turn would alienate Aerys’ supporters and weaken his own hand. The only way for Aerys to get rid of Arthur would be to provoke him to an act of treason and then execute him. I think that, in Aerys evil, twisted mind, raping Ashara would incite Arthur to seek vengeance, thus opening the door for Aerys to legally kill him.

Clearly, however, Arthur Dayne was never executed for treason. I believe that, in order to foil Aerys’ plan and remain as a valuable ally to Rhaegar, Arthur chose not to defend or avenge his sister, essentially choosing loyalty to Rhaegar over loyalty to his family. I believe that once Ashara became pregnant, she was sent back to Starfall to her parents. Upon discovering that Arthur betrayed his sister, his parents disowned him. Why? There isn’t much textual evidence at this point but it explains one inexplicable aspect of the series so far, which is: Why would the Daynes name their heir after Ned Stark? 

One the surface, they should hate him. Most of the people in universe seem think that either he or Brandon impregnated Ashara. Then the Starks rose up on the opposite side of a Rebellion than the Daynes, Ned’s buddy kills the Prince that they support, Ned kills their pride and joy, Ser Arthur Dayne, which supposedly causes Ashara to kill herself. They should hate him and the other Starks. But instead they seem to respect him enough to name Edric “Ned” Dayne after him. Clearly, these events haven’t quite gone down the way we’ve been told. There is something more to the story.

 

If what I have stated about Aerys, Ashara, and Arthur is true, then the Daynes might respect Ned because he killed Arthur. If they blamed him for failing his sister and disowned him, they probably wanted Dawn back, to save for a worthier Dayne. Ned killed Arthur, avenged Ashara, and brought Dawn back to Starfall. But beyond that, if Ashara had just given birth to Aerys’ bastard, I believe Ned offered to protect the baby, keeping its identity secret from Robert. We know that Robert and Ned differed greatly on the subject of dead Targ kids, after all. In this scenario, Ned would have protected Ashara and her baby, doing everything that Arthur failed to do, thus earning the admiration of the Daynes. It also helps explain why Ashara killed herself. She probably had PTSD, postpartum depression, and maybe even blamed herself for Arthur’s death. 

But if Ashara had Aerys’ baby, why does everyone think she was knocked up by a Stark? Why does everyone believe that Jon Snow was born to a woman at Starfall, either Wylla or Ashara? And what happened to Ashara’s baby? To answer those questions, we have to examine the three women that were pregnant and gave birth at the same time, in roughly the same geographic location, and whose babies were all at Starfall at the same time, when they were only a few days old. Let’s take a look:

Lyanna Stark:

Most people are on board with R+L=J at this point, so I’m not going to rehash. For the purposes of this theory, let’s just stipulate that Lyanna was impregnated by Rhaegar and gave birth to Jon Snow, who Ned brought back to Starfall from the Tower of Joy.

 

Wylla the Wet Nurse:

So we don’t know much about Wylla the Wet Nurse's baby except that she must have been pregnant at this time in order for Ned to pass Jon off as Wylla’s. So what happened to her child and who was the father? 

 

Ashara Dayne:

Impregnated by Aerys, gave birth at Starfall, baby protected and concealed by Ned Stark. But how?

 

So here it goes: Some people think that Ned knocked up Ashara, others think Wylla. Barristan Selmy strongly implies that Brandon got Ashara pregnant, but I believe that Brandon got Wylla pregnant. Then, with all these secret pregnancies happening at the same time and place, rumors started getting tangled up and the babies/ baby daddies got attributed to the wrong people.  

(Of course, there is little textual evidence to support this. It’s largely circumstantial. But it fits very well and, with two books still to go, there is plenty of time for the textual evidence to still be unveiled.)

So let’s take a look at Wylla the Wet Nurse. We don’t know much about her, except that, like Ashara and Lyanna, she must have been pregnant in 283 AC, or no one would believe that she was Jon’s mother, which many people do believe. Because of her pregnancy in 283 AC, I think it’s highly unlikely that she was already a wet nurse at this time, because lactation suppresses pregnancy. The most likely course of events is that her pregnancy in 283 AC was her first, after which she began working as a wet nurse and continued to do so at least until Ned Dayne was born, in 287.

So then, what was her role at Starfall, prior to becoming a wet nurse in 283? Add this to the list of stuff that we’ll hopefully find out in Winds, but I’m going to suggest that she was a low born lady, raised as a companion/ladies’ maid to Ashara and Allyria Dayne, much like Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel’s relationship to Sansa Stark. Wylla’s name appears to be a Manderly family name, so I believe she has a connection to the Manderlys. Could she be a bastard of that family, sent to serve the ladies of Starfall and lead a comfortable life there? Could she be the legitimate younger daughter of a less important branch of the Manderly tree? We can’t yet know, but I would say that the connection is there. 

The real question, however, is whether Wylla was around Brandon in order to begin a relationship with him. The evidence is inconclusive. If she was a serving lady at Starfall, I think it is likely that she was at the Tourney of Harrenhal. It is possible that she accompanied Ashara to King’s Landing, just as Jeyne and Beth accompanied Sansa. So when Ashara went to the tourney, Wylla followed. However, it is also possible that Wylla remained at Starfall with Allyria who went to the Tourney with the other Daynes in order to visit her sister and watch her brother compete. After all, the entire Stark family was present, so it seems like the Tourney was supposed to be a family friendly affair.

If we can assume that Wylla was at Harrenhal, we can also assume that she began her relationship with Brandon there. However, the relationship would have had to continue over 282 in order for her to give birth in 283. There isn’t really any information regarding this except that Brandon was in Riverrun during part of 282, before his death. So how this timeline works I’m not quite sure, but I will say this: In order for Ned to convince people that Wylla was Jon’s mother, he would have had to convince them that he and Wylla were in the same geographic location 9 months before, in order to have had conceived Jon. So if Wylla was near Ned at that time, it is likely she was near Brandon as well. We’ll simply have to wait for the next book to know for sure how it went down.

 

So that brings us back to Starfall, in the year 283 AC. Wylla has just given birth to Brandon Stark’s child, Ashara to Aerys Targaryen’s. Ashara names the baby girl Wylla, after her best friend. Think about it. The two women grew up together, they were both pregnant at the same time, in the same castle, during a war (of which they were kinda on the losing side). They were both scared and alone. Also Aerys not only raped Ashara, but murdered the father of Wylla’s child, so they both really hated him. Considering Ashara’s fate, I think it’s fair to assume that she would have been very distressed during this time and the support of her friend, the only person who could understand what she was going through, meant the the world to her. So much so that she named her child after her.

 

But then Ned returns from the Tower of Joy and everything just sort of implodes. Ashara, already struggling from all she has been through, kills herself out of guilt for her brother’s death. Ned, already struggling to conceal Jon’s identity, now has to relocate all three of Starfall’s newborns, so that their identities won’t be discovered.

 

1. Jon Snow - Jon is clearly the priority. He’s the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, which is enough for Robert to want him dead. But he is also a boy, and Daemon Blackfyre and his entire line proves that even Targ bastards are dangerous. Jon is in the most danger, so Ned takes him to Winterfell, where he can be safe under Ned’s watchful eye. But he has to pretend that Wylla is the mother, which means that Wylla’s real child has to be hidden to conceal that Jon is not really her’s. So Wylla’s baby is…

 

2. Meera Reed - Look, I understand the urge to scream that “NOT EVERYONE IS SOMEONE ELSE!”, I really do. But in this case, no matter how you attribute the babies of Starfall and their parentage, Howland always takes the second baby. He’s already knee deep in the whole thing and you want to keep a secret as small as possible. Ned would never have brought another person into it. He didn’t even tell his wife. Also at this point, we have to understand that the secret is already too big. Ned knows, Howland knows, the Daynes probably knew the second they saw Ned return without Lyanna but with a baby. And Wylla knows because she’s doing her best to convince everyone that Jon is actually her baby, which we know he is not. So rather than bring another person into it, Ned sends Wylla’s child (his niece) with his most trusted friend. Greywater Watch is already isolated from the rest of the world. There is no better place to send his niece so that his nephew can live in safety. And it lines up. Meera was born in 283 AC.

 

3. Wylla Manderly - so this just leaves Ashara’s baby, the girl that she named after her best friend, Wylla, before she died. This baby is definitely in danger, being a Targ. But less so than Jon, since she’s a girl. Unfortunately for her, however, she was born with Targ features, purple eyes and white blonde hair. Wylla the Wet Nurse suggests that Ned take Baby Wylla to White Harbor (remember how I said she probably had Manderly connections?). This seems like a good idea to Ned. The Manderlys are North Men and fiercely loyal to House Stark. Wyman may not be conventionally brave, but he has a way with secrets and conspiracies. Knowing what we now know about Wyman, I’d say Ned couldn’t have picked a better place to send Ashara’s baby. Once there, the baby even gets to keep the name her mother chose for her because it fits right in with the other Manderlys, being a Manderly name originally. Many babies have pale blonde hair, so I imagine that it wasn’t until Wylla “Manderly” got a little older and it refused to fade to a more common blonde that they began dyeing it Manderly green.

 

So I’ve already copped to the fact that most of this is circumstantial, but there is some textual evidence that strongly supports the case that I’ve laid. I’ll start with my favorite:

 

Patchface’s Prophecy:

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Most of Patchface’s prophecies have been explained very conclusively, but this is one of the exceptions and which prompted my theory in the first place. Basically, I believe that the “flame” is a metaphor for a Targaryen. Just as flames usually burn red and orange, Targs usually have particular characteristics, the most iconic of which is the silver-gold hair. However, Patchface has had a vision of a flame that burns, not red, but green, black and blue. Translation: The prophecy refers to three Targs who have black, blue, and green hair respectively, rather than the typical silver, which allows their heritage to be concealed.

Black Flame - Jon Snow, whose true parentage was concealed by his black hair and Stark look. Think about it. If he had looked like Rhaegar, instead of Lyanna, his situation would have been much different.

Blue Flame - (f)Aegon. Whether he’s a true Targ, a Blackfyre, or some variation, he still has Targ heritage that manifests itself in silver-gold hair. He conceals this by dyeing his hair blue.

Green Flame - Wylla Manderly. The only character we’ve met in the entire series with green hair, about the same age as Jon and Meera. You’ve heard my case for the her green dye concealing Targ silver.

And the smoke rising in bubbles bit? I believe it’s a play on the saying,”Where there’s smoke there’s fire.” Basically, people were able to contain (represented by bubbles) the rumors (represented by smoke) of these children, causing the fire (Targ kids) to go undiscovered.

 

Similarities between Wylla Manderly and Dany:

If my theory is correct, Wylla and Dany are half siblings and, personally, I think it shows. When Wylla is introduced she shows great spirit, bravery, and a certain righteousness, all of which are shared by Dany. She shows natural leadership abilities. Given a few more moments to speak, this young girl would have whipped the White Harbor men into a frenzy and defied the Freys. Wyman greatly admires her fire, despite it working against his secret plans. Perhaps Ned informed him of her Targ heritage, so Wyman simply expects a little fire from his baby dragon, now and again?

 

The Name Itself: 

Before I had even thought much about the random green hair, Wylla Manderly stood out to me because of her name. The in universe explanation for Jon’s birth points to Wylla the Wet Nurse and, just one Davos POV chapter after hearing rumors about Jon’s mother, we meet a character with the same name as Jon’s “official” mother, a woman with links to Starfall to boot. Plus green hair and a certain fiery disposition? Seems suspicious to me.

 

Similarities Between Meera Reed and Arya and Lyanna:

According to my theory, Meera is Lyanna’s niece and Arya’s cousin. She seems to share these Stark ladies’ fierceness, athleticism and loyalty. She has a boyish build, like Arya. Not conclusive, but I believe it contributes to my theory.

 

 

Anyway, if you read the whole thing, thanks! I’d love to hear feedback and discuss points. I do think that there are parts of this theory that could be changed without debunking the entire thing. I argue that Meera is Wylla and Brandon’s, but she doesn’t necessarily have to be for the theory to work. I’ve also seen it suggested that Wylla Manderly is the daughter of Aerys and Wylla, but I personally don’t think it’s likely. Why would you name a child, whose parentage you are trying to hide, after one of their parents? It would be like Cersei naming her son Jaime, you know? So I presented the case I thought most likely, but I’d love to hear other variations and suggestions. Thanks again!

I think the theory is interesting and has some definite merits. As others have mentioned, a baby swap connected with Jon's birth could indeed be mirrored by the swap of Gilly's baby and Mance's son, which is made to seem more probable due to other parallels:

Jon (the son of a royal prince) was born during a war. Mance's son (the son of the King-beyond-the-Wall) was born during a battle. Both mothers died as a result. Jon's father died in the war. Mance was captured in the battle and later "executed". In both cases a king was overthrown in the war / battle. Both fathers were  defeated by a Baratheon. Jon's birthplace was guarded by three armed white knights. The tent where Mance's son was born was guarded by an armed "black knight", Jon Snow. (Notice the numerous parallels between the Kingsguard and the Night's Watch.) Eventually, baby Jon was rescued by an enemy of his father (his uncle, Ned Stark). Mance's son was rescued by an enemy of his father, Jon Snow. Both babies were given false identities. The baby swap would be an additional similarity here.

However, I have to say I find the story in this form a bit convoluted at times, especially with regard to baby Wylla. If I understand you correctly, it would involve Ned taking (or sending) a baby to White Harbor and asking Lord Manderly to bring up the child as a Manderly without anyone suspecting anything of her true birth. This Wylla is a Targaryen bastard, a fact that Ned wouldn't like to reveal to anyone, yet he has to share the secret with Wyman because the child may develop Targaryen features, so they must be prepared. As Ned himself keeps a similar piece of information secret from even Cat, he will probably ask Wyman to be similarly secretive. However, Jon is presented as Ned's bastard, while there is no indication that Wylla would be regarded as a bastard in the Manderly family. Consequently, Wyman either has to give some very strange and suspicious instructions to his son and daughter-in-law or he has to tell them everything he knows (with special focus on the possible Targaryen features). Also, pretending that Wylla was born a legitimate Manderly requires some prior knowledge of her "mother" being pregnant, otherwise no one will believe it. That would involve another (very unlikely) baby swap or a (real) stillbirth, which could hardly be foreseen by Ned. 

In my opinion, in this situation a  much simpler solution would be to send both babies with Howland Reed, who could just as easily hide two babies as one baby (and he does not necessarily have to introduce them as his own children, he could take them home as war orphans, for example). In this case, Ned wouldn't have to reveal the secret(s) to any additional people. What is more, Ashara could go also with her baby (with the family announcing the suicide). That would leave only one devastated mother, Wylla, and perhaps even she could leave Starfall and go to Greywater Watch some years later.  

Another problem is, if there is a bastard daughter of Brandon somewhere and Ned knows about her, he will feel some responsibility for her. It is entirely possible that he makes regular (secret) visits to Greywater Watch, but it is very strange that in his POV he never seems to think of that child at all.  

Anyway, I definitely agree that the circumstances of Jon's birth probably involve some secrets beyond R+L=J (which may well be the easiest part to figure out). The Daynes are mentioned too often to be overlooked, and it is a good question if Ashara's story is just there for world building purposes or it will have some relevance eventually, and I tend to suspect the latter. I also find it rather suspicious (based on what we know) that the Daynes remember Ned Stark so fondly. Taking the sword back to them was an honorable (and probably exceptional) deed, but it would make Ned only a respected enemy, who nevertheless killed the most prominent son of the family. I doubt that anyone in that family would call their son (much less the heir to Starfall) Ned, even if only as a nickname. Yet, that is not all.. Edric Dayne seems happy to discuss Ned (and the fact that he and Ned's bastard are milk brothers) even though what he apparently knows about the man is basically that Ned fell in love with a Dayne girl he didn't marry, fathered a child on a Dayne servant, killed the best son of the Dayne family, and yes, brought back the legendary sword. This whole thing just doesn't seem to add up in this way. However, if, for example, Ned also saved Ashara somehow, that would make it understandable that the Daynes do not remember him as an enemy. 

Finally, I would also like to say that the polite and civilized tone in which you discuss both your arguments and others' counter-arguments is absolutely commendable and very refreshing.