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When did bastards happen?


Sea Dragon

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Does Tormund practice incest with his daughter/s, like Craster?

Because Maege and Alysane are both single mothers.

Also: the North has vows before heart trees, and take vows seriously. But an unmarried man or woman, or a widow/er, having children breaks no vows. Andal Faith of Seven has rules against sin even if the sinner is otherwise free and unattached.

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you know, that whole situation with the mormont girls actaully helps to clear some of the views that first men of the north have on bastards. technically, all those mormont girls seem to be bastards. we see no mention of fathers that i can recall, no mentions of husbands. they just declare the daughters to be mormonts, and it seems no one cares.

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1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Does Tormund practice incest with his daughter/s, like Craster?

 

No. Wildlings practise strict exogamy and they view Craster as an exception and an abomination.This is what Ygritte tells Jon:

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear is not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed fathers or brothers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. <snip> Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse."

Unlike Craster, Tormund is a respected member of wildling society. Besides, he loves all his children very much, and no loving fathers would want their daughters to offend the gods or to be cursed. He himself does not want to be cursed like Craster. Tormund will not practise incest with anyone, not even with Maege's daughters, if they are his. 

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On 24.7.2017 at 3:16 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I suppose that, if it echoes real history in this aspect, it must have happened along with the practice of private property on land, patriarchy and inheritance. Progression to feudal system would enforce it even more.

Mohammedan world has patriarchy, and polygyny. So does Confucian world.

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5 hours ago, Jaak said:

Mohammedan world has patriarchy, and polygyny. So does Confucian world.

I was thinking of the European world, I should have clarified that. I have only superficial knowledge about those two exambles, what was actually the idea about bastards and the laws of inheritance there? In the classical chinese world, is it not that the first son from the first wife inherits all?

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On 26.7.2017 at 5:10 PM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I was thinking of the European world, I should have clarified that. I have only superficial knowledge about those two exambles, what was actually the idea about bastards and the laws of inheritance there? In the classical chinese world, is it not that the first son from the first wife inherits all?

Well, there were a lot of sons of concubines who inherited.

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  • 5 months later...
On 7/20/2017 at 7:29 AM, Julia H. said:

Just to add some more data to the discussion: Tormund actually tells Jon Snow that there would be nothing wrong with fathering a bastard on Ygritte and that bastards can be just as fine kids as others. This statement makes me wonder whether bastardy is an existing concept in wildling society at all or if Tormund is simply using the expression as an essentially foreign concept because he knows what Jon is talking about but does not consider it relevant in their society. In any case, wildling society, where the idea of inheritance is very limited in comparison with the Seven Kingdoms, does not seem to stigmatize bastards. 

I am bumping this to come back to later because this mini subject recently came up in another thread. 

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On 6/16/2017 at 10:19 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If your a bastard I'd think you'd want to be born and or have a parent from the Stormlands. Storm is a cool last name for both male and females. 

i literally think about this like all of the time hahahahaha

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I agree with those who have pointed out that it is an aspect of the Faith of the Seven that bastards, being conceived in lust, they are naturally supposed to be untrustworthy. The prejudice and paranoid that surrounds them, particularly Catelyn's utter contempt for Jon, is partially due to the Blackfyres. If Jon married and had his own children, they would not be bastards but legitimizing him would make him automatically more preferable to Sansa or Arya in the minds of many (especially as it is all laid out in Robb's will), which Catelyn hates for cheating her own potential grandchildren out of Winterfell.

Acknowledged bastards with famous fathers can found their own families, too, like the Longwaters and even the Baratheons. These people can have children, these children can make political alliances and stake claims to the original father's lands in the event of a succession crisis,  a very real concern at times of war.

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 Dorne which has a strong matriarchal influence of the Rhoynar has the least stigma against illegitimacy, perhaps this is rather similar to the lack of stigma against illegitimacy in matrilineal societies such as the Trobridian islands. 

Beyond the Wall has limited property and inheritance, so there is less stigma against illegitimacy and a strong emphasis on exogamy. Worth noting that illegitimacy stigma  varies on Earth-amongst the Yolngu the word for bastard is a hge slur (they pratctice polygyny) but it the stereotype of Native Americans is that they stigmatized illegitimacy less (but I don't know much about them, not being American, I do however know that some were matrilineal, which again brings them closer to the Trobridian islanders).  

It seems that wildlings do not stigmatise premarital sex at all, but seem to think it is important that a man cares for his children. 

The North still has a strong influence of First Men culture, but having sufficiently salubrious climate to engage in agriculture, there is property and therefore a need to have property be inherited by ones own children (not from Jon down the road). The remnants of First Men culture, and relatively independent women seems to result in  bastards (such as Bael the Bards son with the Stark girl, Torrhen Stark's brother Brandon Snow) achieving prominence.

 

Andal cultures-strong sexual morality, however women have sufficient status in society that they are monogamous, so even if sexual morality is important, it is atleast important for both sexes, even if women are punished more severely for sexual transgression than men- men are still stigmatised for father bastards and the products of such unions are stigmatised. So even though women have a loss of freedom (they don't have it as good as Dornish women or even Northern women) atleast they don't have to watch their husbands' sons with the kitchen girl inherit the property (property that was probably enriched by the wealth that she brought with her dowry) instead their daughters can inherit, and they have a status that say women in polygnous societies do not.

The Iron Islands:

a rape culture: a man's concubines with his saltwives can inherit, however a Pyke (the product of an affair between a Iron Islander nobleman and an Iron Islander woman) is stigmatized (Cotter Pyke is on the wall). Basically the Iron Islands have the worst kind of  polygny (the child of a saltwife inherits before a man's legitimate daughters). Few protections for married women (as there is in a monogamous society atleast) and almost no stigma for men (they are outright encouraged to rape).

However there is still some sort of first men influence-which is why Asha is able to be a warrior (like a real life Viking shield maiden). 

Which brings us to the Dothraki who  are even worse: polygnous, rape their slaves and captives, and widows are forbidden to remarry. Not dissimilar to Confucian prohibitions on widow remarriage whilst allowing concubinage.  Also from watching Korean serials it seems that the sons of concubines had fewer property rights than legitimate sons, but still had more freedom and independence than yangban daughters. Years ago I read this essay that argued that the Chinese began to heroise women who killed themselves rather than remarry in the Yuan dynasty (aka the Mongol dynasty), however Neo-confucianism began in the Song dynasty, so I am not sure how seriously I take the theory that the Yuan stigmatising of widow remarriage was based on the idea that a woman who remarried was loyal to her first family (which symbolised the song dynasty) and a woman who remained loyal to her husband was like someone loyal to the Yuan dynasty.

Not sure if it was this book or this book, or this book, it's not this book since I haven't read it. 

Mongol women were quite independent (even if adultery was probably severely punished) at least according to Jack Waterford's books on Genghis Khan. Perhaps  their nomadic pastoralism is similar enough to hunter gathering that you cannot afford women to be caged in their homes and dressed in clothes that reduce their ability to see/have their feet bound so they cannot walk/neck rings, perhaps this is why Dothraki women aren't cloistered and segregated.

My conclusion: matriarchal societies are the best (since both men and women are happy in them, indeed because Trobridian Islander men can't pass on property to their sons, they try and teach them dances and other skills so it presumably makes them better fathers).

At least in patriarchal monogamous societies both sexes are held to a certain standard-with a man's bastards unable to inherit property-(albeit women are held to a higher standard) and women still have some status (Medieval Queens, courtly love, a role in public life)

Which is better than polygnous societies: women tend to be cloistered, held to ridiculously high standards of sexual morality, whilst men are able to take concubines and  multiple wives whose children can encroach on property that the  first wife brought into the marriage. Also young men are unable to find mates (since rich old dudes horde all the beautiful girls) and are as a result very miserable (patriarchy hurts men to, as they say), often warlike (as a way of acquiring new women for low status men by rape and slavery) but not always (Confucian societies and Hindu societies when they are not on the defensive*)

 

*Some Hindus,  such as the Nayars and Bunts are matrilineal, some practice polyandry-multiple husbands-Hinduism has a broad range. However I am talking about the patriarchal end:  Suttee, high female infanticide, and widows being forced into ashrams in Vrindivan,

 

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On 1/7/2018 at 8:28 AM, Faera said:

I agree with those who have pointed out that it is an aspect of the Faith of the Seven that bastards, being conceived in lust, they are naturally supposed to be untrustworthy. The prejudice and paranoid that surrounds them, particularly Catelyn's utter contempt for Jon, is partially due to the Blackfyres. If Jon married and had his own children, they would not be bastards but legitimizing him would make him automatically more preferable to Sansa or Arya in the minds of many (especially as it is all laid out in Robb's will), which Catelyn hates for cheating her own potential grandchildren out of Winterfell.

Acknowledged bastards with famous fathers can found their own families, too, like the Longwaters and even the Baratheons. These people can have children, these children can make political alliances and stake claims to the original father's lands in the event of a succession crisis,  a very real concern at times of war.

I always look oddly at Cat's hate for Jon, especially the idea that Jon's children (if legitimized) would threaten Robb's.  These would be cousins to the Crown Prince, not brothers or sisters, no different than any of the other four children.  Cat is nuttier than squirrel shit.  We know Eddard was planning on reclaiming part of the New Gift and installing his other children (Bran, Rickon, Jon) as lords/petty lords of small castles or holdfasts. 

Cat's own husband was intent on creating a House Snow, or whatever name Jon took for his new home (similar to the Karstarks and Greystarks).  How little did Cat know about the politics of the North?  She was obsessed with Robb's claim to Winterfell, and when Robb became King she remained obsessed with her children's rights to Winterfell and the crown.  But she seemed to have no knowledge of Eddard's plans with Jeor or Benjen (should Benjen become LC).  She also seemed to be unfamiliar with Mormont succession as well.  She knew extended Stark lineage as far as the Vale. 

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6 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I always look oddly at Cat's hate for Jon, especially the idea that Jon's children (if legitimized) would threaten Robb's.  These would be cousins to the Crown Prince, not brothers or sisters, no different than any of the other four children.  Cat is nuttier than squirrel shit.  We know Eddard was planning on reclaiming part of the New Gift and installing his other children (Bran, Rickon, Jon) as lords/petty lords of small castles or holdfasts. 

Cat's own husband was intent on creating a House Snow, or whatever name Jon took for his new home (similar to the Karstarks and Greystarks).  How little did Cat know about the politics of the North?  She was obsessed with Robb's claim to Winterfell, and when Robb became King she remained obsessed with her children's rights to Winterfell and the crown.  But she seemed to have no knowledge of Eddard's plans with Jeor or Benjen (should Benjen become LC).  She also seemed to be unfamiliar with Mormont succession as well.  She knew extended Stark lineage as far as the Vale. 

I agree with more or less all of this.

Cat just can't get passed her utter contempt for him because, essentially, he's not her blood while Robb wants to name his brother whom he loves and trusts. She assumes the worst of Jon for no reason and even seems to have attempted to seed the idea in Robb's mind, going out of her way to remind Robb how Jon is a bastard who can't inherit:

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.”

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

I can understand her wanting to protect her children's rights and even her difficulty in feeling affection for Jon but she is so unreasonable and mean-spirited about it. Yes, the betrayal must hurt and Ned's silence on the subject must be hard -- but, y'know, Jon's a nice kid and would be as loyal a bannerman to Robb as her own sons would be.

Cat and Robb's discussion about the Stark line is interesting not only because it sets up the Vale Houses trying to stake a claim on Winterfell but demonstrates that Cat has gone out of her way to map out claimants to Winterfell, which is weird. As you said, she's blissfully ignorant of other Northern houses or, as your say, the "Gift Masterplan" that Jon and seemingly Robb did know about. Maybe he was waiting until It was a done deal and then quickly bring it up over dinner one night? :blink:

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