Is House Tully the weakest Liege Lords in the entire kingdom?

[Frey Kings]

Every little event, they either have Houses that are neutral(Frey), go against their interests, or fight among themselves (Blackwoods/Brackens), or go off and do they own thing (Darry, Whoever rules Harrenhal). 

 

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

 

Every other Leige Lord seems to have a solid gripe on their kingdom.... Yes yes yes I know swear fealty to the King first.... 

[Wolf of The Wall]

 

I think it's due to their history. Before conquest Tullys was just another house from Riverlands. They were no nobler than the rest of the noble houses of the region. They became Lord Paramounts because they were first house to declare for Aegon I Targaryen (in Riverlands) and Aegon rewarded them with the title for it. Same with Tyrells. They weren't even a real house they were just stewards of Gardeners. Because of this their vassals don't recognize their authority in war times that much. But Tyrells have much more control than Tullys at least in The War of The 5 Kings.

[The Hoare]

Because the Riverlands wasn't a real entity until the Conquest, and they haven't been ruled by a local since the the extinction of House Teague. 

About the Reach I disagree. The Stormlands had at least three houses siding with the Targaryens in RR, and their lords switched sides three times in the Wo5K. The Vale had some loyalist lords disobeying Jon Arryn in the begining of the rebellion. The Reynes and Tarbecks openly ignored orders from the lannisters. The North had a rebellion of the skagosi some time ago and now the boltons, Lord Umber didn't seemed happy to support a green boy as lord too.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

The Riverlands aren't even considered a kingdom in their own right, so they don't have the power or prestige of the other realms, even the poorer ones like the North and the Iron Islands. And the Tullys themselves are a newly minted Great House, so they don't have the benefit of millennia of history on their side.

Are they the weakest Great House? In terms of prestige within their own realm, probably, although I'd argue that the Greyjoys probably are more poorly regarded by outsiders.

[The Mountain That Flies]

I would say the Martells are up there as well. While they've done a better job than the Tulleys in recent wars, they couldn't even coordinate all the houses in Dorne during the anti-Dornish Blackfyre Rebellion. Part of this is due to there being greater cultural divides between sandy and salty Dornishmen than anything the Tulleys or Tyrells have to deal with, but it's still notable for a region that should have a sense of identity rivaling the North's.

[Lion of the West]

My view is that the Tullys and Tyrells play in the bottom division when it comes to leadership as in every single war that I know about, baring the Reach in Robert's Rebellion, these two regions have been divided between the sides and some going counter to their Lord Paramount. And as mentioned both would seem to have less prestige than the formerly kingly Houses which would explain this.

So I think that the OP is pretty on the spot that the Tullys have a very weak grasp on their region, same with the Tyrells.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Every little event, they either have Houses that are neutral(Frey), go against their interests, or fight among themselves (Blackwoods/Brackens), or go off and do they own thing (Darry, Whoever rules Harrenhal). 

 

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

 

Every other Leige Lord seems to have a solid gripe on their kingdom.... Yes yes yes I know swear fealty to the King first.... 

That tends to happen when you have no natural defenses.

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Every little event, they either have Houses that are neutral(Frey), go against their interests, or fight among themselves (Blackwoods/Brackens), or go off and do they own thing (Darry, Whoever rules Harrenhal). 

 

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

 

Every other Leige Lord seems to have a solid gripe on their kingdom.... Yes yes yes I know swear fealty to the King first.... 

With the exception of the Freys, the Tullys seem to do pretty well in terms of retaining support among their vassals.  And the freys are big enough and rich enough that they can get away with being somewhat independent.  The Brackens ande Blackwoods have been fighting each other forever, and will likely continue to do so., but it doesn't seem to spread to their neighbors.  Harrenhal had the Lothstgons years ago, but, hey, the Starks have the Boltons to deal with, and they have a firm grip on their territory.

The River Lords were quick to support Tully's grandson, Robb when he rebelled, and, for the most part, still support him.  I would say that the Tullys have at least as much support from their own vassals as most of the other great houses do.  Everybody has their vassals that exert their independence.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

The riverlands border like 5 other kingdoms, the tullys are very new to leadership and they have several houses who are not entirely loyal to tully like frey and darry. They are not the most powerful and have a hard time defending themselves in war.

If comparing kingdom vs kingdom i wouldnt say they are especially weaker than any other though.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The Tullys are definitely in the weakest position vis-a-vis their vassals, when compared to the other Lords paramount. It's a combination of (1) the fact that the riverlands don't have a long standing tradition of independence or being a unified entity, (2) the Tullys themselves are upstarts, (3) the riverlands are impossible to defend, meaning that threats from the outside are more likely to motivate vassal houses to submit to invaders, feeling pressured to preserve their own positions. Even houses that might not have a history of disloyalty or strong motivation to undermine the Tullys would be likely to seek a separate peace if the Westerlands attack, for example.

This isn't all that strange - feudal relationships are based on the liege lord's ability to protect their vassals, in exchange for the vassal's loyalty. The Tullys are in an unfortunate position  (because of the factors above) that means the level of protection they can provide their vassals is limited, and it's logical that the vassals' loyalty would also be limited as well.

The Tyrells are upstarts too, but the Reach is much more easily defended and has a long history of its own, and so attacks from the outside are more likely to unify them around their liege lords. Unless the Tyrells weaken themselves (through a devastating alliance with the Lannister for example) to the point where replacing them becomes a much more likely and enticing proposition.

That aside, I think the Hightowers are the real power in the Reach. Behind the scenes, because they're so subtle and sophisticated. Their wealth, status, position in Oldtown, and links to both the Citadel and the Faith all combine to give them an unprecedented network of influence. I would bet that when their daughters marry into other houses (Targaryen or Tyrell), it's really the case that they're inflitrating and extending this network of influence. The children of those marriages may be Tyrells by name, but it's all about who has the most influence in how they're raised and how they'll end up forming their policies as rulers. Why rebel and go to war to win the title of a lord paramount, if you can take that influence and power without bloodshed and without anyone even noticing where the real power lies?

[The Bard of Banefort]

7 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

I would say the Martells are up there as well. While they've done a better job than the Tulleys in recent wars, they couldn't even coordinate all the houses in Dorne during the anti-Dornish Blackfyre Rebellion. Part of this is due to there being greater cultural divides between sandy and salty Dornishmen than anything the Tulleys or Tyrells have to deal with, but it's still notable for a region that should have a sense of identity rivaling the North's.

This is why I find Dorne a bit strange. We're led to believe they're this near-impervious region--unconquerable dragon-slayers and all that--and yet there's no indication of any sort of real unity among them. Hell, the Yronwoods fought for the black dragon in three different rebellions, and yet they somehow are still a noble and influential house. The worldbook claims Dorne and the North have the most in common, but it seems that the North has a lot more in common with the Iron Islands: fiercely loyal (the fact that they didn't throw Balon down a well after his failed rebellion says a lot), harsh living conditions resulting in hardened people, a unique religion, strong sense of regional identity, disinterest in royal politics, etc.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I agree with you, OP. I know they're a popular house among fans, but I never really felt like there was anything particularly special about the Tullys. Despite being made out to be this impressive and powerful house, they always came across as somewhat incompetent to me. Cat is incredibly proud, and therefore thinks of her house very highly, and a lot is made out of how "badass" the Blackfish is (I've never been a fan of his, but I know I'm in the minority), but like you said, we never really see them successfully take on conflict, whether that be in the main series or beforehand.

I think you're right about the Tyrells, as well. The Reach is clearly highly competitive, and the fact that it was the region most divided during the Blackfyre Rebellions goes to show just how tenuous House Tyrell's hold on their kingdom is. What Olenna and Luthor did that was a wise move was to marry their heir to the second most powerful house in the region. Only Quellon Greyjoy did the same for his heir, which seems to have worked out in his house's favor. I guess this can all be explained away by Southron Ambitions, but as we saw with the Boltons and Freys, rival houses can be hazardous. 

[Wolf's Bane]

10 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Every little event, they either have Houses that are neutral(Frey), go against their interests, or fight among themselves (Blackwoods/Brackens), or go off and do they own thing (Darry, Whoever rules Harrenhal). 

 

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

 

Every other Leige Lord seems to have a solid gripe on their kingdom.... Yes yes yes I know swear fealty to the King first.... 

I don't think the Tullys are weak.  House Frey is just very rich and have a hold on the river crossing.  The only way to permanently end the feud between Blackwood and Bracken is to kill off one or both of them.  Darry is actually right for remaining loyal to the king.  It was Tully who was in the wrong.  I don't like Petyr Baelish but I thank him for taking down the Tullys.  It's their comeuppance for participating in the rebellion.

 

[Minsc]

To be fair, the weakness of House Tully in the main series likely comes in part that their experienced lord, Hoster, is bedridden with sickness for most of the series.  While, Blackfish has been away living in the Vale for most of the time between Robert's Rebellion to the War of the Five Kings.  Edmure might be enduring, noble, and honorable lord however he isn't a hard enough lord as needed to protect the Riverlands the same as his father and uncle might have been if they had been able to take command of the Riverlords from the start.

[LordScattergood10]

The martells in my opinion are the weakest great house. Dorne has too much diversity in it. As for the riverlands their history grants each house the need for autonomy. The lack of natural defences and the fact that there is a war every generation is what drives that. In my opinion the riverlords didnt follow robb stark because of his tully blood they followed him because it was the sexiest option for them at the time. They stayed so loyal to robb stark because he turned out to be a good king. He won every battle and he was brave, good, and just. 

[Graydon Hicks]

i think that the tullys might be among the weakest houses due to several things. one is the lack of a true regional cultural identity. the riverlands has been consistently conquered and ruled by exterior forces, since it lack any natural boundaries around which to build a strong defense against invasion and happens to border five of the other realms, which do control the natural boundaries. this has lead to the riverlands being the primary battleground for almost every major cross realm conflict in westeros. 

the people  of the riverlands are likely a much more mixed group than most of the other realms. likely have a healthy population of first men blood lines and old god worshippers, even if its subdued. outside of the region's rivers, there not that much that truly unifies its people and lords. and most of its truly old families, that familes that trail all the way back to the either the first men lines or the early andals, are dead, killed by either the stormkings or the ironborn, or by each other. so many of its current families are relatively young for a continent that has houses that are 8000 years old.

another thing i notice is the location of its regional seat, riverrun. the other seats, casterly rock, Eyre, storms end, winterfell, and highgarden, are all centrally located in their respective realms. but riverrun is located in the western end of the riverlands, which makes it a easily accessible target for both the westerlands and the reach.    

if the riverlands could avoid being fought over every couple of generations, then the tully might have the chance to actually build up that sense of loyalty that tends to accumulate around old, persevering houses.

[Prof. Cecily]

1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i think that the tullys might be among the weakest houses due to several things. one is the lack of a true regional cultural identity. the riverlands has been consistently conquered and ruled by exterior forces, since it lack any natural boundaries around which to build a strong defense against invasion and happens to border five of the other realms, which do control the natural boundaries. this has lead to the riverlands being the primary battleground for almost every major cross realm conflict in westeros. 

the people  of the riverlands are likely a much more mixed group than most of the other realms. likely have a healthy population of first men blood lines and old god worshippers, even if its subdued. outside of the region's rivers, there not that much that truly unifies its people and lords. and most of its truly old families, that familes that trail all the way back to the either the first men lines or the early andals, are dead, killed by either the stormkings or the ironborn, or by each other. so many of its current families are relatively young for a continent that has houses that are 8000 years old.

another thing i notice is the location of its regional seat, riverrun. the other seats, casterly rock, Eyre, storms end, winterfell, and highgarden, are all centrally located in their respective realms. but riverrun is located in the western end of the riverlands, which makes it a easily accessible target for both the westerlands and the reach.    

if the riverlands could avoid being fought over every couple of generations, then the tully might have the chance to actually build up that sense of loyalty that tends to accumulate around old, persevering houses.

I like your analysis.

Still, I haven't learned my Tully house history (yet) nor Riverlands history nor have I mastered Westeros geography.

[Graydon Hicks]

its in the world book. the tullys were not that high a house until the conquest, when aegon kicked harren of the ironborn out of harrenhal, and freed the riverlands from the ironborn. the tullys were the first of the lordly house to bow to the dragons, and aegon raised them to be lords paramount for the loyalty.

[Adam Yozza]

21 hours ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Every little event, they either have Houses that are neutral(Frey), go against their interests, or fight among themselves (Blackwoods/Brackens), or go off and do they own thing (Darry, Whoever rules Harrenhal). 

 

Next would be the Tyrells, (weak leadership during the Dance of Dragons), when one of their vassals' offspring (Greens) had a very good chance of becoming King. Intermarriage of  powerhouses like Hightowers and Redwynes seems to keep them afloat. 

 

Every other Leige Lord seems to have a solid gripe on their kingdom.... Yes yes yes I know swear fealty to the King first.... 

On the whole, you are correct however there are a few issues with what you've said.

If you look back over Westerosi history, there are almost no wars in which the entire region fought on only a single side. In the WO5K, you obviously have the Bolton's and Frey's who betrayed their lieges, while the Stormlords switched allegiance's twice and the Crownlands are split. In RR, the Vale and Stormlands also had house's that fought against their lieges. In both the Dance and the First Blackfyre Rebellion, every region had people fighting on both sides of the war (Yronwood's fought for the Anti-Dornish Black Dragon, for example). The Reyne's and the Tarbeck's rose up against the Lannister's, the Stark's had to deal with Bolton and Skagosi rebellion's many times throughout their history. So the Tully's aren't the only Great House that has trouble controlling their vassal's.

But yes, overall I'd say they are the weakest and there is a reason for it. Like all of the Kingdoms, the Riverlands was originally divided between a dozen petty kings like the Bracken's, the Blackwoods and the Mooton's. However, in the other Kingdoms, one King conquered the others and formed united realms that were then ruled by a single dynasty for thousands of years. In the Riverlands, this didn't really happen. Every so often, you'd get a local house that would unite the Riverlands (the Mudd's, the Teague's and the Justman's all did it) but these united Kingdom's usually fell apart before long (the Mudd's lasted the longest I think) and the realm would shatter again.

The fact that the Riverlands border five other Kingdoms didn't help either. Prior to Aegon's Conquest, the Riverlands had also been conquered and ruled by the Arryn's, the Stormking's and the Ironborn on different occasions in addition to their own local Kings. So the fact that they didn't really have any sense of unity prior to the Conquest is a factor.

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree with you, OP. I know they're a popular house among fans, but I never really felt like there was anything particularly special about the Tullys. Despite being made out to be this impressive and powerful house, they always came across as somewhat incompetent to me. Cat is incredibly proud, and therefore thinks of her house very highly, and a lot is made out of how "badass" the Blackfish is (I've never been a fan of his, but I know I'm in the minority), but like you said, we never really see them successfully take on conflict, whether that be in the main series or beforehand.

That's wrong. In the Dance, the Riverlords were among the most vital and significant ground forces in the entire war (for the Blacks at least). They had major roles in the Riverlands against the Lannisters at the Red Fork (a loss, but one which cost the Lannister's their Lord and best commanders) and the Fishfeed (a massive victory) and then again at both battle's of Tumbleton, the Butcher's Ball and; most significantly; the Battle of the Kingsroad, in which the Tully's and Blackwoods completely annihilated the Stormlands army.

[John Doe]

11 hours ago, Steelshanks Walton said:

I don't think the Tullys are weak.  House Frey is just very rich and have a hold on the river crossing.  The only way to permanently end the feud between Blackwood and Bracken is to kill off one or both of them.  Darry is actually right for remaining loyal to the king.  It was Tully who was in the wrong.  I don't like Petyr Baelish but I thank him for taking down the Tullys.  It's their comeuppance for participating in the rebellion.

 

You support a king who burns his own subjects alive during a court session for shits and giggles?