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Graydon Hicks

what robb could have done better?

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

You are mistaking the course of events.  Ser Rodrik rallies all those men to retake the castles in the west that have been taking by Victarion and Asha.  Theon takes Winterfell because Ser Rodrik took the whole garrison, plus many other men presumably, since a few hundred men can't execute a siege, and so he walks into an essentially defenseless castle.  Before Theon does anything there are no men present (or very, very few) inside Winterfell.

 

We know for a fact this isn't true, because when Theon arrives in Pyke as Robb's envoy, he sees and comments that Balon has already called his banners and that many of his vassals are at anchor in the harbor.  He had given Theon up for dead (as he barely even acknowledges him as a son when he does return) long before.

You aren't understanding me.....I'm not mistaking any course of events.  When Theon took Winterfell, Sir Rodrik was forced to come back and try to retake it from him.  Ramsay was only ever able to take Winterfell because of this....he treacherously killed Rodrik and some other Northmen, acted like he was Theon's ally, then put the whole castle to the sword.  Ramsay would've stayed in that dungeon if it wasn't for Theon taking Winterfell in the first place.

None of that would've happened if Theon hadn't taken Winterfell in the first place.  So ultimately, had Robb kept Theon with him then Winterfell wouldn't have fallen to Ramsay in the manner that it did.  Ramsay would've continued to rot in the Winterfell dungeons because Theon would've never arrived to free him.

It's not that hard of a conclusion to come to.  

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44 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

You aren't understanding me.....I'm not mistaking any course of events.  When Theon took Winterfell, Sir Rodrik was forced to come back and try to retake it from him.  Ramsay was only ever able to take Winterfell because of this....he treacherously killed Rodrik and some other Northmen, acted like he was Theon's ally, then put the whole castle to the sword.  Ramsay would've stayed in that dungeon if it wasn't for Theon taking Winterfell in the first place.

 

Ser Rodrik left Winterfell in the first place in order to retake Torrhen's Square from Dagmer Cleftjaw.

When he sees you raising siege towers, his old woman’s blood will run cold, and he will bleat for help. Stay your archers, Uncle, and let the raven fly. The castellan at Winterfell is a brave man, but age has stiffened his wits as well as his limbs. When he learns that one of his king’s bannermen is under attack by the fearsome Dagmer Cleftjaw, he will summon his strength and ride to Tallhart’s aid.

Ser Rodrik was coming back anyway.  He belongs in Winterfell in the first place.

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10 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Ser Rodrik left Winterfell in the first place in order to retake Torrhen's Square from Dagmer Cleftjaw.

When he sees you raising siege towers, his old woman’s blood will run cold, and he will bleat for help. Stay your archers, Uncle, and let the raven fly. The castellan at Winterfell is a brave man, but age has stiffened his wits as well as his limbs. When he learns that one of his king’s bannermen is under attack by the fearsome Dagmer Cleftjaw, he will summon his strength and ride to Tallhart’s aid.

Ser Rodrik was coming back anyway.  He belongs in Winterfell in the first place.

You are focusing on all the wrong details.  I know all of the above.....that's not the point.  The point is, that if Robb wouldn't have let Theon go back to Pyke, then Rodrik wouldn't have had to return to Winterfell to free it from Ironborn occupation.  It would've still been held by Maester Luwin with Ramsay in the dungeons.

Hence, Robb wouldn't have lost Winterfell had he kept Theon by his side.  I'm not sure what's so hard about this for you to understand, but you are having a difficult time for sure.

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Honestly the one i most damn him for is just be clearer to edmure so many way in war to interpret to hold something. I mean even when he attacked Tywin he was still holding riverrun. Just let your general know he must let tywin pass since he will not want to engage another army with you having a trap in mind. Simple Twyin is in the west he doesn't meet with LF (don't think robb would have killed him), but Stannis takes KL and you can start treating with him. 

Ye he was a loser for putting the honour of one girl over the North but hey Hormones and grief does that. 

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On 7/5/2017 at 11:47 PM, Aegon1FanBoy said:

Honestly the one i most damn him for is just be clearer to edmure so many way in war to interpret to hold something. I mean even when he attacked Tywin he was still holding riverrun. Just let your general know he must let tywin pass since he will not want to engage another army with you having a trap in mind. Simple Twyin is in the west he doesn't meet with LF (don't think robb would have killed him), but Stannis takes KL and you can start treating with him. 

Ye he was a loser for putting the honour of one girl over the North but hey Hormones and grief does that. 

i think some of that blame lies on edmure. he has spent most of his life living in the shadows of his father and uncle, accomplished and reputable military commanders, and i think he may have gotten fed up with being told how to play at war, even by his much younger nephew, and might have thought he had an opportunity to step out from behind his father's and uncle's reputations to gain glory for himself, instead of doing what his king told him to do.

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  • Focus on the goal. Robb’s aim is to get as many Starks safely back as possible. He cant care about  who sits on the IT
  • Understand one’s strengths. The North cannot be tamed. It’s cold, its vast and winter is soon coming, sealing the region from the rest
  • Understand one’s limits. 20k army might look enormous in the North but its tiny when compared to what the Tyrells and the Lannisters can throw against. Also the Starks have no fleet so the path to the North must be secured. Always!
  • He’s warden of the North not of the Riverlands. By all means rescue the Tullys but don’t take responsibility over their lands and their Lords. Edmure can either move North to safety or die in the South among his people. It’s his choice to make
  • Never lose Theon out of sight. He’s not a brother or a friend. He’s a ward. If the Greyjoys dares to pull a hair out of a Northman then Theon will be sent in pieces. Remind Balon of that.
  • Negotiate with everybody. If the Lannisters want Jamie then ask for Sansa and Arya back. If the Baratheons want the Starks at their side then they better start proving their worth by marching their army to war against the Lannisters. The North will bend the knee to anyone willing to pay a fair deal. That include a pardon to the Riverlands and the Starks daughters back
  • Keep your promises. That’s the only way people can trust you. Use your links to the fullest. The Freys have marriage ties with the Lannisters. Use them.
  • If and once the Starks girls are back, make sure to marry them as quickly as possible. Convince Edmure, Brynden and even Cat to do the same. Sansa will be perfect for Willas Tyrell while a marriage between Edmure and Myrcella will secure the Riverlands safety. The former shares blood with half Westeros nobility. The latter is the king’s sister and a Lannister. Both houses must see sense in such marriage. Arya will marry Robin when she’s of age while Cat can be convinced in marrying LF if the man manages to pull all the right strings.
  • Once everyone is secured go back North and put a bad ass army at Moat Cailin. Let the lions and stags fight for the crown. Its ain't your problem anymore

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1 hour ago, devilish said:
  • Never lose Theon out of sight. He’s not a brother or a friend. He’s a ward. If the Greyjoys dares to pull a hair out of a Northman then Theon will be sent in pieces. Remind Balon of that.

Uh yes,Theon is Robbs friend in every definition of the word. Wards are quite often friends, it's a side effect of living together. Friends can come in pretty handy especially if they should ever happen to be Lords of one of the 7 kingdoms. Also, having Theon as a hostage is pretty useless as Balon didn't give a shit and was going to attack the North anyway. Unless of course you have fun cutting innocent people to pieces. Your argument makes no sense.

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21 minutes ago, ftheking said:

1- Uh yes,Theon is Robbs friend in every definition of the word. Wards are quite often friends, it's a side effect of living together.

2 - Also, having Theon as a hostage is pretty useless as Balon didn't give a shit

1 -  IMO true. Young people becoming friends while fosterlings and then keeping up friendships throughout their life was part of medieval networking, of which we see a lot in Westeros. Think Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. What Eddard did not impose on Robb was that Theon was a HOSTAGE. Otherwise the boys growing up as friends was almost a given.

2 - IMO true again. And again a failure of Eddard Stark to know that Theon was worthless as a hostage as Asha was groomed for succession. Bad intelligence gathering.

So - as others have said - the only thing Robb could had done better than OTL was to keep Theon with him.

No Ironborn in Winterfell = no Ramsay on the loose, Bran not "MIA assumed KIA" and Ser Roderik alive = the North is in Stark hands.

The three Ironborn forces at Deepwood Motte, Barrowton and Moat Cailin are of minor consequence.

Moat Cailin can be by-passed (and it's a quicker route) by going from e.g White Harbour by ship to the coast just to the east of the Neck. The Kingsroad across the Neck is needed only when moving a large force. Think thousands of people and animals. The Victorian at Moat Cailin is a nuisance, not a threat.

 

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44 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

1 -  IMO true. Young people becoming friends while fosterlings and then keeping up friendships throughout their life was part of medieval networking, of which we see a lot in Westeros. Think Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. What Eddard did not impose on Robb was that Theon was a HOSTAGE. Otherwise the boys growing up as friends was almost a given.

2 - IMO true again. And again a failure of Eddard Stark to know that Theon was worthless as a hostage as Asha was groomed for succession. Bad intelligence gathering.

So - as others have said - the only thing Robb could had done better than OTL was to keep Theon with him.

1) Robb didn't care and wouldn't care even if Ned chose to be a nagging asshole about it. Theon being a hosage does in no way devalue him as a person and with that a potential friend or whatever. Point is it's still good politics to be firends with Theon. The ward /hostage situation is very fluid, Cat says so "A ward can become a hostage quickly if neccessary". You prove your trust by giving your son somewhere as a ward because they are kinda autimatically a hostage - you can't then attack the Lord who has your son, duh. Theon was a hostage first, a ward second, but that doesn't change the whole concept completely. Robb and Theon being best friends for life would have still been great news for the North ... if Balon hadn't fucked it up.

2) Yeah, not really Robb's fault.

Judged by hindsight it would have been better to keep Theon with him somehow of course, but Robb wasn't being stupid not to. He couldn't see the future. He made the best decision he could in the circumstances. Fate and Balon were not kind to him. What chance did he have to win the war otherwise? This alligiance would have been crucial to be honest.

Sometimes Robb made a mistake (marrying Jeyne, probably not informing Edmure of his plan) and sometimes he was a victim of circumstances outside of his control.

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8 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Sometimes Robb made a mistake (marrying Jeyne, probably not informing Edmure of his plan) and sometimes he was a victim of circumstances outside of his control.

Sometimes things can only be explained by "it seemed a good idea at that time ... "

But not knowing that Theon no longer had any worth as hostage - that is a failing by somebody SOMEWHERE.

Using the Westerosi equivalent of "the wizard did it" or "Deus ex machina", we can bet our money on "Varys NOT passing such info on to Winterfell", thus stoking the fires of chaos and cackling like hell!

:D

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well, people keep going on how its all of a sudden that robb acted honorably by marrying jeyne, when he could have had it annulled, or taken her as a mistress, or left her a one night stand, when he obviously visited the brothels at winterfell with theon. but robb was what, 15? when this war started. i know brothel visits start young in medieval cultures, but he didnt have nearly that amount o time to visit them that theon, who was older by a couple years at least, had. and did he visit them after his father went south. it seems to me that once the mantle of responsibility was placed on his shoulders, he seem to been trying very hard to hold to it and the ideal his father had established to him. when he was simply the heir of winterfell, a one nighter with jeyne westerling might have been easy to wave off afterwards, but as the lords, then king, the implications of what he did probably hit him a little harder. as the king, he would have felt responsible for what he did, and unlike theon or robert, not likely to simply shrug and go on about his day. 

folks keep going on about the political nature or logic of his choices, but everyone seems to forget that this is a series about people, human being with human emotions and reasoning. how can we judge cersie by her personility in regards to her actions, yet not do the same for robb or jon?

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9 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well, people keep going on how its all of a sudden that robb acted honorably by marrying jeyne, when he could have had it annulled, or taken her as a mistress, or left her a one night stand, when he obviously visited the brothels at winterfell with theon. but robb was what, 15? when this war started. i know brothel visits start young in medieval cultures, but he didnt have nearly that amount o time to visit them that theon, who was older by a couple years at least, had. and did he visit them after his father went south. it seems to me that once the mantle of responsibility was placed on his shoulders, he seem to been trying very hard to hold to it and the ideal his father had established to him. when he was simply the heir of winterfell, a one nighter with jeyne westerling might have been easy to wave off afterwards, but as the lords, then king, the implications of what he did probably hit him a little harder. as the king, he would have felt responsible for what he did, and unlike theon or robert, not likely to simply shrug and go on about his day. 

folks keep going on about the political nature or logic of his choices, but everyone seems to forget that this is a series about people, human being with human emotions and reasoning. how can we judge cersie by her personility in regards to her actions, yet not do the same for robb or jon?

Where do we get any inkling that Robb had gone with Theon to the brothels?

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Nope, pretty sure Robb was a virgin, paniked about the very idea of making a bastard, as we know.

What is more Theon didn't visit brothels either. Kyra was no prostitute, just an apparently adventurous commoner girl. Winterfell and the Winter Village were apparently full of women - how did he put it - longing for Theon's touch, Only in the show does Theon visit brothels, Robb never. Have you been reading fanfic @Graydon Hicks?

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On 7/13/2017 at 10:07 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Where do we get any inkling that Robb had gone with Theon to the brothels?

i was going off the idea from several posters that he had gone. i never pictured him to be that kind of guy, too much ned in him to keep to that kind of behavior, same with jon, though jon seems to take it to far deeper level, due to his circumstances. but it still fits with my statement about the differences in his behavior between him being only the heir, and him being lord, then king.

 

On 7/13/2017 at 11:55 AM, ftheking said:

Nope, pretty sure Robb was a virgin, paniked about the very idea of making a bastard, as we know.

What is more Theon didn't visit brothels either. Kyra was no prostitute, just an apparently adventurous commoner girl. Winterfell and the Winter Village were apparently full of women - how did he put it - longing for Theon's touch, Only in the show does Theon visit brothels, Robb never. Have you been reading fanfic @Graydon Hicks?

and yes, i do read a lot of fanfiction. i actually like some of them better than the books. my favorite people seem to survive in fanficiton when they seem to die off in canon. and i like reading the various what ifs people come up with.

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5 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

same with jon, though jon seems to take it to far deeper level, due to his circumstances. but it still fits with my statement about the differences in his behavior between him being only the heir, and him being lord, then king.

Well, it doesn't fit if it's not true. Am I missing something here?

There is no indication that Jon takes it to a deeper level either. Robb takes all the way to breaking his word and losing a war as soon as he slips up and does have sex. Jon pretty much risks creating a wildling, whose people he BETRAYS with much less issue. I  would say Robb takes the topic more serious. He was seemingly that sorry for Jon.

Ned doesn't even compare. He traumatized the boys with the stuation he created/was forced into. He himself was not influenced the same way. I could imagine him being a virgn in his wedding night, but we really don't know.

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to quote jon, "I will never father a bastard." he took the whole situation very seriously, though, to be fair, he had never been in love before he met ygritte. and i am talking about their whole shared sense of honor. robb would ahve felt that honor demanded that he marry jeyne westerling after he slept with her, especially given that she was a young woman of high birth, and amongst the nobility a woman's maidenhead is her most valuable commodity, without it her prospects for marriage are far lower, especially if she was unmarried. his honor demanded he marry her to spare that shame. for jon, its more personal. he is a bastard, and a bastard of a bastard is twice damned. he is too good a man, and his own honor is too demanding, for him to inflict that on someone. thats one of the reasons that he goes to the wall, because they arent allowed to sire children, so he wont be put in a position were he takes that kind of risk. granted the risk still came by, but not because he was roaming some street and came across a comely wench in a tavern.

robb doing as he did is because of his honor, and because he isnt very experience politically. he is too young and carried away with his successes in war to pay attention to kind of thing, nor the full consequences of breaking his promise to the freys. of course, personally, i think walder would have betrayed him anyway, if for different reasons, but thats me. robb wsnt thinking ahead, just in the now, and his honor in the now demanded he wed the girl he just deflowered, to spare her shame and appease her family. should he thought that through, yes. could some alternative action be taken, have her drink moon tea, yes. but i wont fault robb for being a young trying to own up to his actions.

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No one knows whether a girl still has her maidenhead unless she falls pregnant or is very public about her sex life. Basically Robb was afraid of havng created a bastard with Jeyne.and probably way too naive to in any way consider moon tea. (Plus other facts like he probably didn't want to lose the solace of Jeyne's arms because he was just that needy/vulnerable at the moment) Jon on the other hand was able to forget about the issue. Whatever he claims he'd never do, he could have easily fathered a bastard, and he seemed to care more for his duties regarding the Night's Watch than that, So according to canon Robb is the one who is more hung up about it. You are turning this around with no evidence.

And yes it's obviously sympathetic that Robb only wanted to do the right thing, as well as that he is so sensitive about bastards although it didn't really concern him personally. .

As for Walder, he would have done what seemed best for himself, but to get two Starks to marry is a very powerful promise. You'll notice how popular a marriage canditate Sansa is and how Ramsay pretends to marry Arya EVEN AFTER the Starks are beaten. t's still a great ticket to Winterfell and the whole North. Having Robb's baby would even beat having one of the sisters. I can't see Wlader letting go of that outlook very easily. That marriage might have well actually doomed Robb.

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walder wouldnt have had to keep robb alive tho. all he would need would be to be sure robb had knocked up one of his daughters, then handed robb over to the lannisters. that child would give him all the control he would need of the north, especially if he worked to eliminate the rest of the family. thats what tywin was working towards when he married tyrion to sansa.

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On 7/12/2017 at 5:05 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

i think some of that blame lies on edmure. he has spent most of his life living in the shadows of his father and uncle, accomplished and reputable military commanders, and i think he may have gotten fed up with being told how to play at war, even by his much younger nephew, and might have thought he had an opportunity to step out from behind his father's and uncle's reputations to gain glory for himself, instead of doing what his king told him to do.

But he did do as he was told he held riverrun but i do agree the fool wanted glory in combat much like every westerosi lord

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