Heresy 200 The bicentennial edition

[Melifeather]

If Sansa survives, and GRRM's original plot line did not include her as surviving, I wasn't thinking she'd be associated with winter at all. I am theorizing that after Jon swoops down leading his army of the dead that there needs to be a way for winter to end and seasons to return to normal. If Jon is the King of Winter will he have to be killed? Is this where Bran the dragon comes in? So if Sansa survives past this point she could take up the mantel at Winterfell and declare herself Queen, not just in the north but of all of Westeros. Her separation from her wolf would make her neutral with no ties to either ice nor fire.

[Black Crow]

While Sansa's role has changed since 1993 and her fate at that time was uncertain, I would rule nothing out. I think that as part of the writing process GRRM probably had certain outcomes in mind, but was less clear about who should ultimately play those roles and how.

For example there was the business of Jon getting inside Arya's knickers. That in turn revolves around the discovery that Jon is not her half brother. This particular plot device is still to be resolved, but Sansa may now be a better candidate. GRRM is constantly stressing how organic the story is in its writing and as it develops certain characters may be slotted into different roles because they fit better. As the saying goes many roads may lead to the same castle.

[wolfmaid7]

9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the two prime candidates right now are Jon as King of Winter (as we've discussed before, the morning freeze at Craster's Keep, and as Snowfyre brought up, the play on Jon Snow and Jack Frost).  If Jon's parents are in fact Brandon and Lyanna, it also gives him a "legitimate" claim to Winterfell that was usurped by Eddard.

While the Snow Queen is most likely Sansa, if her (as BC put it) snowflake communion was any indication. 

I would also put Tormund and Val as strong contenders as well.  They have at least a passing resemblance to the Russian Ded Moroz, "Father Frost",  and his granddaughter Snegurochka, the "Snow Maiden". 

I think Arya is more in line as a "servant of death". 

I am coming at Arya from a different angle.I agree Arya is "a servant" of death.Therefore,her as a winter queen isn't at odds with that.

I can see Sansa as the type and even Val.If any of them goes Snow Queen I wouldn't be surprise.

[Black Crow]

On 6/29/2017 at 4:10 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I think the two prime candidates right now are Jon as King of Winter (as we've discussed before, the morning freeze at Craster's Keep, and as Snowfyre brought up, the play on Jon Snow and Jack Frost).  If Jon's parents are in fact Brandon and Lyanna, it also gives him a "legitimate" claim to Winterfell that was usurped by Eddard.

While the Snow Queen is most likely Sansa, if her (as BC put it) snowflake communion was any indication. 

I would also put Tormund and Val as strong contenders as well.  They have at least a passing resemblance to the Russian Ded Moroz, "Father Frost",  and his granddaughter Snegurochka, the "Snow Maiden". 

I think Arya is more in line as a "servant of death". 

I'm really not convinced about either Tormund or Val, because while I can see the various allusions that might be attached to them, they simply aren't central enough to the story.

Jon and Sansa on the other hand, whether individually or together are both children of Winterfell and touched by snow to provide all the Ice we need.

Arya and Bran could be harder to pin down; whether still in thrall to the Many-Faced God or not, Arya does indeed seem to be a servant of death, but perhaps as such is needed when we're faced with so much defiance of death. Bran, as I've said may go over to the dark side - and its worth remembering what a cute little kid Annakin Skywalker was when he started out and how revenge twisted him

[Black Crow]

On 6/30/2017 at 1:21 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

I am coming at Arya from a different angle.I agree Arya is "a servant" of death.Therefore,her as a winter queen isn't at odds with that.

I can see Sansa as the type and even Val.If any of them goes Snow Queen I wouldn't be surprise.

As I've just said, I don't think Val is central enough to the story, but that's not to rule out her playing the white lady to Melisandre's red one.

[Melifeather]

I think the focus about Bran learning to skinchange into a raven could be viewed as flight training for dragons. I know Bloodraven uses ravens and crows as well as weirwoods, but I wonder if Bran may have been brought there to train...not to replace Bloodraven? 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the focus about Bran learning to skinchange into a raven could be viewed as flight training for dragons. I know Bloodraven uses ravens and crows as well as weirwoods, but I wonder if Bran may have been brought there to train...not to replace Bloodraven? 

I'm more inclined to stick with the "winged wolf" and see Bran, for good or evil on the other side.

[MaesterSam]

Ah, it's great to be back. And just in time for Heresy 200!!! Don't mind if I jump right in, as I've been thinking about crows quite a bit myself lately. 

On 2017-6-18 at 4:30 PM, Black Crow said:

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

Just in case we missed it, Bran kindly points it out for us: a three-eyed crow should have three eyes. Three. BR is not even close- he has one real eye, and even if we add the "third" eye, that still only makes two. There is even a saying about his number of eyes, with the response always being  "A thousand and one" - which also doesn't add up to three. It seems to me that GRRM is really going out of his way to emphasize that this guy doesn't have three eyes.

On a related note... does BR even refer to using the greensight as opening the third eye? (This is a real question, I can't remember for sure). If he doesn't (in person), then that would also speak against him being the 3EC. Along with his flat-out denial of being a crow, regardless of eye number.

I do think it's interesting how his eye situation parallels Euron somewhat. Here, BR's eye is described as a pool of blood, while Euron's eye is called his blood eye by Aeron. BR only has the one eye, whereas Euron has two but only uses one at a time, keeping the other beneath an eye patch. So they both are "missing" one real eye, but have the third eye open. Euron even calls himself the Crow's Eye. 

And this is where I like to ease myself into the rabbit hole, and wonder which crow's eye Euron thinks he is. Just any random crow? A crow of the Night's Watch? Or the three-eyed crow? (with the last two not necessarily being mutually exclusive)

He is the eye of the crow. The crow. Who are we talking about here? And why would Euron be its eye? He seems to be ok with this, proud of it even, as if it is an honor or an accomplishment to be the Crow's Eye. Presumably, this is a position which helps "the crow" see in some way, quite possibly via the third eye. So "Crow's Eye" could be a title for someone who works for "the crow", using greensight to allow the crow, via the Crow's Eye's third eye, to see virtually everything.  I am tempted to go out on a limb here and suggest that potential Crow's Eyes are marked with red eyes (sometimes just one red eye), and that real greenseers have green eyes (as the name very much implies!! Think about it, why greensight? What is green about it? ). Leaf was rather nonchalant in explaining that those with the gift are marked with green or red eyes, as if the two are interchangeable. But they are not; green marks greenseers, and red is for crow's eyes. 

Now for the real crackpot. If a person can be the crow's eye, then would he likely be the only eye of a one-eyed crow? Probably not, right? So probably an eye of a two-eyed crow. Which begs the question: who is the second eye? BR seems like a great candidate. But now, of course, we have created a "crow" character who is immensely powerful and who would encourage potential Eyes to open their third eye so he could see through them. Which we have of course already witnessed in Bran's dream. But that crow had three eyes...

So presumably there is a third Crow's Eye out there somewhere. The fun question then becomes: Is there an actual Crow character who sees via these three almost-greenseers, or, my preferred option - are the three Eyes together the 3EC? You know, the way the dragon has three heads, the crow has three Eyes..

Ok, that's enough tinfoil for my first post back.... time to keep reading!

 

 

 

[JNR]

^^^ thought-provoking stuff from Maester Sam, there.

A bit more text that may be relevant to such analysis:

Quote

 

The Crow's Eye had taken Lord Hewett's bedchamber along with his bastard daughter. When he entered, the girl was sprawled naked on the bed, snoring softly. Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?"

 

This bit about dreaming he could fly, when he was a boy... in conjunction with "leaping from some tall tower"... and crow's eyes... certainly seems notably in parallel with another character.

[MaesterSam]

On 2017-6-18 at 4:44 PM, Black Crow said:

• Rats in general have a negative connotation in the story. They always seem to go against the main protagonists of the series. The Freys come to mind first. But also the rats of King's Landing during the Great Spring sickness. There is speculation that it was Bloodraven that drove the rats from the city. That was, after all, the place where BR's family lived and he had already lost some to the sickness.
  • TSS: "You would not know the city since the spring. The fires changed it. A quarter of the houses gone, and another quarter empty. The rats are gone as well. That is the queerest thing. I never thought to see a city without rats."

Dunk had heard that, too. "Were you there during the Great Spring Sickness?"

If BR was able to control the rats, and the rats were spreading the disease...  this would have given him the power to at least partly control who got sick, no? Perhaps he engaged in a little strategic family tree thinning in order to choose who would rule next? 

 

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

 

I do think it's interesting how his eye situation parallels Euron somewhat. Here, BR's eye is described as a pool of blood, while Euron's eye is called his blood eye by Aeron. BR only has the one eye, whereas Euron has two but only uses one at a time, keeping the other beneath an eye patch. So they both are "missing" one real eye, but have the third eye open. Euron even calls himself the Crow's Eye. 

And this is where I like to ease myself into the rabbit hole, and wonder which crow's eye Euron thinks he is. Just any random crow? A crow of the Night's Watch? Or the three-eyed crow? (with the last two not necessarily being mutually exclusive)

He is the eye of the crow. The crow. Who are we talking about here? And why would Euron be its eye? He seems to be ok with this, proud of it even, as if it is an honor or an accomplishment to be the Crow's Eye. Presumably, this is a position which helps "the crow" see in some way, quite possibly via the third eye. So "Crow's Eye" could be a title for someone who works for "the crow", using greensight to allow the crow, via the Crow's Eye's third eye, to see virtually everything.  I am tempted to go out on a limb here and suggest that potential Crow's Eyes are marked with red eyes (sometimes just one red eye), and that real greenseers have green eyes (as the name very much implies!! Think about it, why greensight? What is green about it? ). Leaf was rather nonchalant in explaining that those with the gift are marked with green or red eyes, as if the two are interchangeable. But they are not; green marks greenseers, and red is for crow's eyes. 

As JNR says there's some interesting ideas there, and I might be tempted to add Mors Umber to the eyes.

In the past there has of course been some comparison between Bloodraven and Odin, but its worth recalling that Odin was fed his information by his two crows, so I can easily see those crows eyes as Odin's messengers, with the caveat that we might ask whether Bloodraven is indeed Odin or merely another crow's eye?

[MaesterSam]

On 2017-6-22 at 1:15 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

I was having an interesting conversation with Master Sam about who the original FM was.Its possible he was a Skinchanger whose 3rd eye was opened in the darkness of those mines.

Yes, that was a good one! 

On 2017-6-22 at 1:15 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

As for R'hollor there is evidence that the power used by the Red priests are the powers of the greenseers.

I am torn on this one, b/c on the one hand, Mel's powers increase at the Wall, suggesting that this Ice structure amplifies Fire magic - thereby supporting the idea that all magics take power from the same source. However, the Ghost of High Heart tells Thoros that his fire magic will not work around the weirwood stumps, b/c the place still belongs to the old gods. Which, if nothing else, seems to suggest that the Wall is not an "Old Gods" structure (in other words, it probably was not built by, or with the help of, the COTF). Not sure where to take it from there...

On 2017-6-22 at 1:15 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

E.g.And I will add a bonus.

1.Arya seeing the kindly man as first a skeletal figure one eyed figure with a worm out one socket.

2.One eyed Beric in the hill on the weirwood throne.

3.Bloodraven on the weirwood throne 

We also have a skeletal figure in Stannis, whose skull bones are said to be visible beneath his skin now. He still has two eyes, but that could change at any time. It almost seems as if over-use of magic drains a person, leaving them a hollow shell with a scarecrow-like appearance.

 

[LynnS]

21 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

We also have a skeletal figure in Stannis, whose skull bones are said to be visible beneath his skin now. He still has two eyes, but that could change at any time. It almost seems as if over-use of magic drains a person, leaving them a hollow shell with a scarecrow-like appearance.

 

Yes, the life force is used and drained away.  In the case of Beric; Thoros implies that another resurrection will kill them both.  Melisandre glows with light when she births shadow-Stannis... there can be no shadow without light and she nearly comes to ruin when she over-extends her powers at the burning of Rattleshirt.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

She made it sound a simple thing, and easy. They need never know how difficult it had been, or how much it had cost her. That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken. Thankfully Lord Snow had delivered her from that agony with his arrows. Whilst Stannis had seethed at the defiance, she had shuddered with relief.

 

 

[MaesterSam]

On 2017-6-23 at 2:46 AM, Black Crow said:

As to Jon's beserk rages, the best we've come up with over the years is that Ghost is warging him at the time - which is why he's oblivious to what's happening.

Ooooh, interesting! I hadn't heard that one before, but it fits a suspicion I have had lately that maybe Ghost was not so much a gift from the Old Gods (like the other direwolves), but that this pup was planted with the others to infiltrate Winterfell (or possibly the Wall), and/or help keep an eye on (or spy on) Jon, who is clearly going to be important in some way. He was clearly intended for Jon (not Bran, the supposed greenseer), as he looks different and the other 5 are perfect matches for the 5 trueborn Starks. If someone was planning this, it wouldn't be hard to predict that the bastard would end up with the weird albino puppy. He was also older than the other pups, having open eyes and having already crawled away from their dead mother. [Note that when the pups are found, someone in the group suggests they may have been born after the mother was already dead. I won't speculate on whether that's the case, but the mere suggestion implies that the pups looked like they were born around the time the mother died - either just before or just after. Seeing as they are still alive, and wouldn't have survived more than a day or two nursing off a dead mother, they are only 1-3 days old. That is much too young for Ghost to have open eyes, let alone crawl around. He most likely is not from the same litter at all.]

Jon doesn't naturally bond with his wolf the way his siblings do; he resists it actively and we only hear of ONE (IIRC?) wolf dream he has, and that one is strongly influenced by Bran. Ghost also seems to like Mel, even though Jon doesn't. The other direwolves mirror their warg's feelings, such as Shaggydog expressing Rickon's fear and frustration, and Summer threatening Jojen when he pressures Bran during a conversation. But even though Mel makes Jon very uncomfortable, Ghost goes up to her and licks her hand. 

Ghost has red eyes, representing weirwoods and the Old Gods - not the Starks of Winterfell. If my 3EC theory is correct, there may be someone else - "the crow" or maybe one of the crow's Eyes - who wargs into Ghost, or at least sees through his eyes. This is probably who sent him in the first place. (If I had to guess, I'd say it's someone who prefers silence to the howling of wolves, but that may be a bit of a stretch). He has certainly displayed some questionable behavior. Some was useful, such as finding the dragonglass + horn at the Fist (though we don't know what the horn ultimately does), but then he was also the one who led Jon & co to undead Othor and Jaffer, who were Trojan horses intended to kill LC Mormont. He often disappears, and Jon doesn't sense him at all for a long time (weeks?) after climbing the Wall - which could be due to the Wall blocking the gift, but it's also possible that Ghost was otherwise occupied (no pun intended, lol)  during this time. 

[The Fattest Leech]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As JNR says there's some interesting ideas there, and I might be tempted to add Mors Umber to the eyes.

In the past there has of course been some comparison between Bloodraven and Odin, but its worth recalling that Odin was fed his information by his two crows, so I can easily see those crows eyes as Odin's messengers, with the caveat that we might ask whether Bloodraven is indeed Odin or merely another crow's eye?

Jon fits with the Odin type figure in more ways than Bloodraven does. Some certain posters here may remember when we had this converstion several months back. Copied and pasted below from this thread:

That said, Brynden Rivers in life was very Odinesque, but I don't think he is the Odin figure anymore. His arc changed, just as Jon's probably will when he comes back. BR lost his eye and gained some sort of (terrible) knowledge. It appears that when Bloodraven went 'under the sea' (into the far north), his archetype changed, and it seems to have changed into a Hypnos/Thanatos god instead, keeping in mind that the gods flip a coin when a Targ is born, and they are often two sides of the same coin. Twins in a way.

(by the way, Thanatos is the Greek name, and the Roman name is Mors!)

Much of the comparison is fairly self explanatory, but you can see the general inspiration George uses:

• Hypnos (/ˈhɪpnɒs/; Greek: Ὕπνος, "sleep") lived next to his twin brother, Thanatos (Θάνατος, "death personified") in the underworld.

  • As we know, the underworld in ASOIAF is mostly the north, and far north 'under the sea'.

  • We see that Bran has a throne made for him, and there are other children in the other cave room that are hooked up the weirnet as well.

  • We first meet Bloodraven in a dream.

  • Hypnos is pictured as having a winged headpiece. Here, and here. This could translate to a few different things in ASOIAF.

• Hypnos' mother was Nyx (Νύξ, "Night"), the deity of Night, and his father was Erebus, the deity of Darkness. Nyx was a dreadful and powerful goddess, and even Zeus feared entering her realm.

  • Brynden is the son of Aegon IV, or, Aegon the Unworthy

  • Melissa Blackwood is his mother, and that house has a dead weirwood on their estate.

• Hypnos' three brothers (according to Hesiod and Hyginus) or sons/children (according to Ovid) were known as the Oneiroi, which is Greek for "dreams." Morpheus is the Winged God of Dreams and can take human form in dreams. Phobetor is the personification of nightmares and created frightening dreams, he could take the shape of any animal including bears and tigers. Phantasos was known for creating fake dreams full of illusions. Morpheus, Phobetor, and Phantasos appeared in the dreams of kings.

• The Oneiroi, his children, lived in a cave at the shores of the Ocean in the West. The cave had two gates with which to send people dreams; one made from ivory and the other from buckhorn. However, before they could do their work and send out the dreams, first Hypnos had to put the recipient to sleep.

  • So we have children of the forest living in the caves that 'work' for their god. Sounds familiar.

  • We have the river that runs through the cave to where???

  • They have to put recipients to sleep. Alaso familiar, and could be the inspiration to the weirwood paste Bran has to eat. Just an idea.

  • THE ONEIROI were the dark-winged spirits (daimones) of dreams which emerged each night like a flock of bats from their cavernous home in Erebos--the land of eternal darkness beyond the rising sun. The Oneiroi passed through one of two gates (pylai). The first of these, made of horn, was the source of the prophetic god-sent dreams, while the other, constructed of ivory, was the source of dreams which were false and without meaning. The term for nightmare was melas oneiros (black dream).

    • In addition to the flocks of ravens, and the CotF, Bran also finds a huge dragon skeleton at the back of the cave that calls "gigantic bats"! (this also parallels Viserion over in Essos at this same time)

  • According to some the leader of the Oneiroi was Morpheus, a god who appeared in the dreams of kings in the guise of a man bearing messages from the gods.

    • Could Brynden Rivers abandoned the Watch because of a message he received? Many here theorize yes.

  Hypnos/Thanatos live in a big cave, which the river Lethe ("Forgetfulness") comes from and where night and day meet. His bed is made of ebony, on the entrance of the cave grow a number of poppies and other hypnotic plants.

  • Weirwood thrones. We see weirwood and ebony dualistically several times in the story. George could have just used the weirwood property in place of the ebony in this case to be consistent with the rest of ASOIAF.

  • Weirwood (Jojen?) paste. Remember how Bran felt after he started to eat the paste. Trippy would describe it best, I think.

  • Poppies were associated with both Hypnos and Thanatos because of their hypnogogic traits and the eventual death engendered by overexposure to them.
    • This also sounds a little like Sweetrobin, but I don't know that George is going to use this on SR literally. He may change that ending for SR, too.

• No light and no sound would ever enter his grotto.

  • We read about this time and again in Bran's chapters when he explains how dark it is in the cave, and how flames don't last long, and daylight cannot reach inside, etc.

  • In both stories, darkness is a key element to the characters within. I won't list them all out, but we know how dark the cave is, and also how darkness seems to "waken" the warg powers within the little Starklings all over Planetos.

• He is said to be a calm and gentle god, as he helps humans in need and, due to their sleep, owns half of their lives. However, if we go back to the Targ two sided coin, we know that Thanatos was thus regarded as merciless and indiscriminate, hated by - and hateful towards — mortals and gods alike.

  • Brynden Rivers was always morally ambiguous in life. He was full of duty, but at the expense of some questionable practices.

    • Battle of Redgrass field, and the Aeny Blackfyre/Great Council debacle that got him sent to the wall.

  • Also, those pesky "sinister sorcerer" rumors that spread like the Spring Sickness throughout Westeros.

• Thanatos could occasionally be outwitted, a feat that the sly King Sisyphus of Korinth twice accomplished. When it came time for Sisyphus to die, Zeus ordered Thanatos to chain Sisyphus up in Tartarus. Sisyphus cheated death by tricking Thanatos into his own shackles, thereby prohibiting the demise of any mortal while Thanatos was so enchained. Eventually Ares, the bloodthirsty god of war, grew frustrated with the battles he incited since neither side suffered any casualties. He released Thanatos and handed his captor over to the god.

  • King Sisyphus seems to be a comparison the the Blackfyres that Bloodraven was always battling down. Three times, actually.

  • The "He released" in the Thanatos story compares to Aegon IV releasing Bloodraven to take up the black for life, where after a time, Bloodraven left the watch and became a "god".

• And we have this:

  • "And there the children of dark Night have their dwellings, Sleep and Death, awful gods. The glowing Sun never looks upon them with his beams, neither as he goes up into heaven, nor as he comes down from heaven. And the former of them roams peacefully over the earth and the sea's broad back and is kindly to men; but the other has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods."

-Hesiod, Theogony 758 ff, trans. Evelyn-White, Greek epic 8th or 7th century BC

Or not Just ideas.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

9 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Seeing as they are still alive, and wouldn't have survived more than a day or two nursing off a dead mother, they are only 1-3 days old. That is much too young for Ghost to have open eyes, let alone crawl around. He most likely is not from the same litter at all.]

This is a sign that Jon is more advanced than his Starkling litter mates. Jon hears the trees first and does become bonded with Ghost and starts to share the same sensations with Ghost such as taste and smell. Jon does wonder what is happening to him, but he was never trained by a proper warg or skinchanger. Nope. He was always told by a maester that things like magic do not exist.

9 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Jon doesn't naturally bond with his wolf the way his siblings do; he resists it actively and we only hear of ONE (IIRC?) wolf dream he has, and that one is strongly influenced by Bran. Ghost also seems to like Mel, even though Jon doesn't. The other direwolves mirror their warg's feelings, such as Shaggydog expressing Rickon's fear and frustration, and Summer threatening Jojen when he pressures Bran during a conversation. But even though Mel makes Jon very uncomfortable, Ghost goes up to her and licks her hand. 

I see this idea come up every once in a while, that Ghost actually likes Melisandre. I do not think that is what happens at all. Melisandre has been trying desperately to get Jon to like her and trust her, but Jon refuses to get close to her. Jon says he trusts Mance little, and he trusts Mel even less.

Melisandre is using her magics to get Ghost to "like" her. It is artificial. It is a false liking. Here is a brief synopisis of what I mean that I posted before:

I would say she is lying about her bond with Ghost. Mel is like sword without a hilt, dangerous, yet no control.

• ADWD/ Jon VI- Ch 28: In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

...Surprise made him recoil from her. "Lady Melisandre." He took a step backwards. "I mistook you for someone else." At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how he could have taken her for Ygritte.

..."Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song. (song, as in spell like MMD says)

...The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too

... At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

• ADWD/ AryaII: "Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes,
• ADWD/Mel- Ch31: The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.
  • ASOS/ Davos III: "With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after."

 

[Black Crow]

 

Its also worth recalling Melisandre's thoughts about the wildlings and pretty well everybody else as a doomed people. When she thinks of Azor Ahai as the saviour she and Benero are thinking in terms of an apocalypse in which only the elect will be purified and saved. Her agenda is quite different from Jon's and he is ultimately a disposable tool - and so by extension is Ghost.

She may be underestimating Ghost 

[MaesterSam]

On 2017-6-23 at 4:36 PM, LynnS said:

And this dream where Dany is transformed into the dragon or wargs a dragon, specifically the last dragon.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

 

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

 

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

 

 

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

 

 

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

 

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

 

 

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

 

 

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

 

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

 

"… want to wake the dragon …"

 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

"… wake the dragon …"

 

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

 

 

"… the dragon …"

 

Ooooh yes! One of the most under-analyzed passages of the series, IMO. While it disguises itself as Dany turning into a dragon, in effect this is a flying dream similar to that experienced by Bran (and probably Euron as well). Both Bran and Dany are near death when they have this dream, and are essentially given the "fly or die" choice by a guiding voice within the dream. They know a terrible fate awaits them if they do not fly - Bran would end up on icy spires in the LOAW, while Dany would be caught by the dark/cold and howl forever alone in the darkness. But both succeed (Euron too, presumably, as he is still alive), and fly. They can now see the whole world from above, and when they finally wake, they awake to a strong bond with their spirit animal (Bran starts having wolf dreams, while Dany proceeds to hatch her eggs). Both dreams occur around the same time - late in AGOT- and both dreamers will continue having prophetic dreams in which they are visited by various guides (the 3EC, the weirwood, and Quaithe). All three dreamers (Euron included) will at a later time use a magical tree-derived substance to further expand their mind and learn about the world.

Then there are also some parallels between Dany and Jon's dreams. Both walk down a stone hallway with their ancestors sitting to both sides. In both cases, there are clear prophetic elements to the dream; Jon sees a dead Grey Wind around the time of the Red Wedding while Dany sees her son go up in flames and "wakes the dragon". And then there is the darkness that both Jon and Dany fear, but here we have a clear difference: Dany runs from it and escapes by flying away, while Jon knows he must descend further and face whatever is down there. 

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

Ooooh yes! One of the most under-analyzed passages of the series, IMO. While it disguises itself as Dany turning into a dragon, in effect this is a flying dream similar to that experienced by Bran (and probably Euron as well). Both Bran and Dany are near death when they have this dream, and are essentially given the "fly or die" choice by a guiding voice within the dream. They know a terrible fate awaits them if they do not fly - Bran would end up on icy spires in the LOAW, while Dany would be caught by the dark/cold and howl forever alone in the darkness. But both succeed (Euron too, presumably, as he is still alive), and fly. They can now see the whole world from above, and when they finally wake, they awake to a strong bond with their spirit animal (Bran starts having wolf dreams, while Dany proceeds to hatch her eggs). Both dreams occur around the same time - late in AGOT- and both dreamers will continue having prophetic dreams in which they are visited by various guides (the 3EC, the weirwood, and Quaithe). All three dreamers (Euron included) will at a later time use a magical tree-derived substance to further expand their mind and learn about the world.

Then there are also some parallels between Dany and Jon's dreams. Both walk down a stone hallway with their ancestors sitting to both sides. In both cases, there are clear prophetic elements to the dream; Jon sees a dead Grey Wind around the time of the Red Wedding while Dany sees her son go up in flames and "wakes the dragon". And then there is the darkness that both Jon and Dany fear, but here we have a clear difference: Dany runs from it and escapes by flying away, while Jon knows he must descend further and face whatever is down there. 

Yes, I'm skeptical that the dragon of this dream is Drogon but rather R'hllor, the last dragon god and whether or not Dany is seeing through the eyes of the dragon in her visions as the Starks do with their wolves.  The great stone arches and stone houses, perhaps mountains and the caverns beneath them; the natural home or abode of dragons, the red door reflecting the volcanic pits beneath.

Dany line of ancestors shows us a very old lineage, one with gemstone eyes, all holding a pale sword.  That's suggests the Dawn Sword and the Daynes.   The Targs may be an offshoot of that lineage rather than the older of the two bloodlines.  Gerold Dayne in particular with his silver hair and purple eyes so dark they look black could be a Targ with those markers.  His eyes are the color of old amethyst glass.

I think Dany did die and was resurrected by fire amidst salt tears and smoke during MMD's ritual.  Her salt tears steam off her cheeks; she has immunity to fire for a short time.  Before this she has an unusual resistance to heat.  We don't hear of the Targs showing this resistance.  But we do hear of Targ insanity around transforming into an actual dragon. 

Dany does transform into a dragon in her dreams after she is cleansed, her physical body melted away.  She has the capability of bonding with fire where others would go mad. 

[MaesterSam]

20 hours ago, JNR said:

ore text that may be relevant to such analysis:

Quote

 

The Crow's Eye had taken Lord Hewett's bedchamber along with his bastard daughter. When he entered, the girl was sprawled naked on the bed, snoring softly. Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?"

 

This bit about dreaming he could fly, when he was a boy... in conjunction with "leaping from some tall tower"... and crow's eyes... certainly seems notably in parallel with another character.

Exactly! As you will see in my previous post, Dany also had such a dream, except in hers she turned into a dragon in order to fly. She doesn't share this dream with anyone, but if she did, I imagine she would say "I dreamt that my child burned, and then I turned into a dragon and flew. But when I woke, I was still human ... or so the maegi said. But what if she lied? What if I make a large pyre and walk into it?"

We have another character who thought he could survive an inferno, and that the sacrifice of burning a city would turn him into a dragon. The reader is led to assume this character is mad, but was he? Or did King Aerys have the same dream as Dany, and Jaime prevented him from "waking the dragon" by killing him before he could burn his offerings?

 

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In the past there has of course been some comparison between Bloodraven and Odin, but its worth recalling that Odin was fed his information by his two crows, so I can easily see those crows eyes as Odin's messengers, with the caveat that we might ask whether Bloodraven is indeed Odin or merely another crow's eye?

I really need to read more Norse mythology, but after a brief wikipedia research session, I can definitely see the parallel between Odin and what I have been calling "the crow" for lack of a better term. They are the person/entity receiving the information gathered by the Crow's Eyes.

IMO, it shouldn't be BR, because he shouldn't have need of Eyes to gather information for him. Presumably, like Bran, he can see almost everything from his weirwood throne already. And again, he seems surprised/confused when Bran asks him if he is the 3EC, and someone so powerful shouldn't be unaware of how he appears in other people's dreams. IIRC, at one point the 3EC even asks Bran for corn.... so in my mind, BR is just a crow's eye, like Euron. But the crow has three eyes, so there must be one more. 

In trying to identify the third eye of the crow, the question becomes what we should be looking for. I am leaning toward a red eye (or red eyes), as we are told the gods mark their chosen ones by eye color, but this leaves us with extremely few options. Melisandre comes to mind, and she does have visions in the flames. It would kind of fit if the Eyes were distributed between different faiths/magical talents, with a kraken, a "greenseer", and a fire priestess. And it would be oh-so-ironic if the Great Other is watching the world through Mel's eyes... 

The only other red-eyed being with a significant role in the story is Ghost, and you can read my post above for speculation on his role. There are of course characters like Quaithe, the Kindly Man or Varys who may be glamored, so we wouldn't know their eye color (the same argument could of course be used to disqualify Melisandre). 

We could look for one-eyed characters instead, which would include Crowfood Umber (Mors?), Beric Dondarrion (but he's dead), and the Kindly Man wearing his dead face. Or for characters with an apparent open third eye or unusual dreams, which then would expand the list to Bran, possibly Dany, maybe even Jon, Missandei, Sweetrobin, and Arya. None seem like a perfect fit, but given the strong parallels between the Cave of Skulls and the House of Black and White, I do expect the Faceless Men to be involved in some way. Arya is being trained to be a spy, to be an Eye of the FM out in the world. The Many-Faced God is another version of the Great Other, or Odin, so that parallel works as well.

OH and speaking of parallels, look what I stumbled upon when researching who Odin actually is (this is all from wikipedia):

Quote

In Old Norse texts, Odin is depicted as one-eyed and long-bearded, frequently wielding a spear named Gungnir, and wearing a cloak and a broad hat. He is often accompanied by his animal companions—the wolves Geri and Freki and the ravens Huginn and Muninn, who bring him information from all over Midgard—and rides the flying, eight-legged steed Sleipnir across the sky and into the underworld. Odin is attested as having many sons, most famously the gods Thor (with Jörð) and Baldr (with Frigg), and is known by hundreds of names. In these texts, he frequently seeks greater knowledge, at times in disguise (...)

Odin receives information from wolves and ravens, which in my mind immediately makes me think of the winged wolf. He rides an eight-legged steed .... which would probably resemble a spider at least superficially. And he has hundreds of names and likes to disguise himself, which makes me think of the faceless men but also possibly the Old Gods. But there is more:

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In Old Norse texts, Odin is given primacy over female beings associated with the battlefield—the valkyries—and oversees Valhalla, where he receives half of those who die in battle, the einherjar. The other half are chosen by the goddess Freyja for her afterlife location, Fólkvangr. Odin consults the disembodied, herb-embalmed head of the wise being Mímir for advice, and during the foretold events of Ragnarök, Odin is told to lead the einherjar into battle before being consumed by the monstrous wolf Fenrir. In later folklore, Odin appears as a leader of the Wild Hunt, a ghostly procession of the dead through the winter sky.

Odin rules one of the two underworlds, and is foretold to lead the dead into the final battle in winter. Now he sounds like an Other, leading hosts of the slain into battle... (although it could also be Bran or Jon leading the dead Kings of Winter)

Quote

In the prose introduction to the poem Sigrdrífumál, the hero Sigurd rides up to Hindarfell and heads south towards "the land of the Franks". On the mountain Sigurd sees a great light, "as if fire were burning, which blazed up to the sky". Sigurd approaches it, and there he sees a skjaldborg with a banner flying overhead. Sigurd enters the skjaldborg, and sees a warrior lying there—asleep and fully armed. Sigurd removes the helmet of the warrior, and sees the face of a woman. The woman's corslet is so tight that it seems to have grown into the woman's body. Sigurd uses his sword Gram to cut the corslet, starting from the neck of the corslet downwards, he continues cutting down her sleeves, and takes the corslet off of her. 

The woman wakes, sits up, looks at Sigurd, and the two converse in two stanzas of verse. In the second stanza, the woman explains that Odin placed a sleeping spell on her she could not break, and due to that spell she has been asleep a long time. Sigurd asks for her name, and the woman gives Sigurd a horn of mead to help him retain her words in his memory. The woman recites a heathen prayer in two stanzas. A prose narrative explains that the woman is named Sigrdrífa and that she is a valkyrie.

A narrative relates that Sigrdrífa explains to Sigurd that there were two kings fighting one another. Odin had promised one of these—Hjalmgunnar—victory in battle, yet she had "brought down" Hjalmgunnar in battle. Odin pricked her with a sleeping-thorn in consequence, told her she would never again "fight victoriously in battle", and condemned her to marriage. In response, Sigrdrífa told Odin she had sworn a great oath that she would never wed a man who knew fear. Sigurd asks Sigrdrífa to share with him her wisdom of all worlds. The poem continues in verse, where Sigrdrífa provides Sigurd with knowledge in inscribing runes, mystic wisdom, and prophecy.

So aside from the suspicious Hindarfell... (Hindarfell, it rhymes with....)

I think we can safely say GRRM has read this tale, and it left an impression. I don't know how far the parallels go, but it almost sounds like Odin vanquished the Night's Queen after she helped the wrong side in a battle. But she's not dead, only sleeping, waiting for a hero with a special sword to wake her...