Why Aerys killed Brandon?

[Agent 326]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Which is a duel challenge.

It's not something you ask nicely or politely. It traditionally comes with challenges and insults, so that the challenged party cannot refuse without coming off as a coward and without honor.

That still is telling the crown prince to die.

 

3 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

  Bullshit.

You can pin that accusation on Brandon, it's very difficult to pin it on the people who just kept him company, and simply mad to try to pin it on their fathers.

They still where part of the treason.

 

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. By law Brandon should have had a trial. And the same goes to Rickard. And don't even think to say that Rickard had one.

And I find it lucky that the Mad King didn't have Brandon killed on the spot.

[sweetsunray]

14 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Still you said it was a lord's right.

No, I didn't. You're confusing me with another poster. But that they made that mistake, doesn't make your counter argument that "Brandon has no right to demand trial by combat because he isn't a lord" still

 

15 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Yes but well keep in mind that the person who broke the King's Peace is the crown prince. It is treason to threaten a member of the royal family last time I checked

There is no threat, as the effing crown prince isn't even there.

Nor is there any plot to kill him, because Brandon demands his challenge openly and publically. He's demanding a one-on-one combat and using language so that if Rhaegar was actually there he would have been compelled by honor to take Brandon Stark on.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Just now, Agent 326 said:

They still where part of the treason.

There are two options.

One, you honestly believe in your argument. Which is, frankly, repulsive.

Two, you don't, you're just trolling.

Both, however, lead to the exact same conclusion: I'm not going to waste my time and read anything you'll ever write again. Have a nice day.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

That still is telling the crown prince to die.

In a specific legal challenge aimed to fight to the death. Brandon was willing to die on Rhaegar's sword too, just like LF was willing to die on Brandon's sword. He was deliberately goading for a trial by combat and duel against Rhaegar to the death. And yes in that situation, with that goal, it's perfectly normal to shout "come out and die!".

The Dunk & Egg Hedge Knight makes perfectly clear it's legal to demand a duel against a prince, and for a crown prince to engage in a duel. And that if in fact a crown prince does die in such a duel, no treason takes place. If anyone shouts "and now you die" in such a situation, it's total rubbish to stop the trial by combat and then accuse the combatter of "treason against the crown prince".

[Agent 326]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There is no threat, as the effing crown prince isn't even there.

Nor is there any plot to kill him, because Brandon demands his challenge openly and publically. He's demanding a one-on-one combat and using language so that if Rhaegar was actually there he would have been compelled by honor to take Brandon Stark on.

He demands that Rhaegar die there or not that is still a threat. Also Brandon could've then used better wording, also no matter what Brandon started a war.

 

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

There are two options.

One, you honestly believe in your argument. Which is, frankly, repulsive.

Two, you don't, you're just trolling.

Both, however, lead to the exact same conclusion: I'm not going to waste my time and read anything you'll ever write again. Have a nice day.

I am seeing this from an observer's perspective. Brandon committed treason. This is like when Cersei had all of Ned's household killed in the Throne Room. They aided a traitor in attempting to usurp the throne. They too are guilty of treason.

[sweetsunray]

12 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

He demands that Rhaegar die there or not that is still a threat. Also Brandon could've then used better wording, also no matter what Brandon started a war.

A deliberate challenge for a trial by combat, which nobody can legally refuse him, and in fact exactly because it targeted and accused the crown prince and not the king, it would be up to the crown prince to choose a champion for his side.

If Brandon's aim was to get a one-on-one combat situation to the death between himself and Rhaegar, then he used the perfect wording for it.

Even if Brandon had spoken in his cups in a bar that he would see Rhaegar dead; even if he shouts it to the whole world he has a right to combat. And he worded it so that Rhaegar would be honor bound to take the challenge up, if he had been there, or look a dishonorful coward for the rest of his life.

No, Brandon did not start a war. Aerys started it when he executed powerful lords and heirs without any trial and then demanded the heads of two young men in another region who hadn't done anything. It was the last illegal demand that started the war.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

This is like when Cersei had all of Ned's household killed in the Throne Room. They aided a traitor in attempting to usurp the throne. They too are guilty of treason.

While she was the one who committed treason by tearing up her husband's will, and puts a non-Baratheon on the throne.

[Agent 326]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

While she was the one who committed treason by tearing up her husband's will, and puts a non-Baratheon on the throne.

Yes that may be true but even if, to most people Stannis and Renly where both pretenders to the throne. Also it wasn't Roberts will. A will is a document stating who gets the person's possessions upon their death. The document was to give Ned regency.

 

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A deliberate threat for a trial by combat, which nobody can legally refuse him, and in fact exactly because it targeted and accused the crown prince and not the king, it would be up to the crown prince to choose a champion for his side.

If Brandon's aim was to get a one-on-one combat situation to the death between himself and Rhaegar, then he used the perfect wording for it.

No, Brandon did not start a war. Aerys started it when he executed powerful lords and heirs without any trial and then demanded the heads of two young men in another region who hadn't done anything. It was the last illegal demand that started the war.

How about we agree to disagree. Does that seem like a good idea to you? It sounds like a good idea to me.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Agent 326 said:

Yes that may be true but even if, to most people Stannis and Renly where both pretenders to the throne. Also it wasn't Roberts will. A will is a document stating who gets the person's possessions upon their death. The document was to give Ned regency.

Of course it's a will. Wills are used to declare who's regent until the legal heir comes into the throne.

Legally, it doesn't matter what most other people think of Stannis and Renly, because legally it isn't a democracy, but a dynasty based on blood. Cersei, Jaime, Varys, Pycelle, Ned and LIttlefinger know that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon. Minus Selmy and Renly that's the whole of the small council, and that matters more than what Joe Shmuck in the street thinks. And the moment that there are allegations made by a legal regent regarding the legitimacy of Joffrey, then Selmy was actually duty bound as LC of the KG to at least take custody of both Joffrey and Ned, and protect the both of them until the matter was cleared out. Same goes for Slynt. Cersei was not regent and not part of the small council and she had no right to tear up a legal document, let alone a king's will, just because it inconvenienced her.

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

How about we agree to disagree. Does that seem like a good idea to you? It sounds like a good idea to me.

Disagree all you want, you're still spouting and mistake Aerys's mad and mistaken beliefs that he can legally flout the legal rights of his vassals and heirs with Aerys having the legal right to do that. He doesn't. Just because someone is mad that doesn't make him right, quite the opposite usually. In fact that he actually believed he would get away with it in a feudal society where the army power is in the hands of the vassals is one of the signs how mad he is.

Aerys tried, and Aerys died.

[Agent 326]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course it's a will. Wills are used to declare who's regent until the legal heir comes into the throne.

Legally, it doesn't matter what most other people think of Stannis and Renly, because legally it isn't a democracy, but a dynasty based on blood. Cersei, Jaime, Varys, Pycelle, Ned and LIttlefinger know that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon. Minus Selmy and Renly that's the whole of the small council, and that matters more than what Joe Shmuck in the street thinks. And the moment that there are allegations made by a legal regent regarding the legitimacy of Joffrey, then Selmy was actually duty bound as LC of the KG to at least take custody of both Joffrey and Ned, and protect the both of them until the matter was cleared out. Same goes for Slynt. Cersei was not regent and not part of the small council and she had no right to tear up a legal document, let alone a king's will, just because it inconvenienced her.

Renly likely knows that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon, after all Loras almost certainly know that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon and Loras and Renly are best of friends and likely would've have talked about this. Also I had used the throne room as an example, if Joffrey where trueborn he Ned's men would also have been traitors. You also forgot about Stannis.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Renly likely knows that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon, after all Loras almost certainly know that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon and Loras and Renly are best of friends and likely would've have talked about this. Also I had used the throne room as an example, if Joffrey where trueborn he Ned's men would also have been traitors. You also forgot about Stannis.

Renly had no idea and knew Stannis couldn't prove it. He just didn't care. How the hell would Loras know?

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Loras almost certainly know that Joffrey isn't a Baratheon and Loras and Renly are best of friends and likely would've have talked about this.

How would Loras know that?

10 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

if Joffrey where trueborn he Ned's men would also have been traitors.

If Joffrey was trueborn, then Ned wouldn't have accused him of not being the legal heir. He'd have taken up the regency over Joffrey and tried to be his Hand as best as he could. Cersei fully admitted to Ned Stark that all her children are Jaime's.

Still legally speaking, Cersei committed an unlawful coup, even when Ned actually had committed treason. She was no regent, she was not Hand, not small council, not a warden, not an LP. She's the mother of a child king with no legal power whatsoever to command anyone. Not even Joffrey has any legal powers because he's a minor. I'd say that in that moment the one person with the most legal authority to decide anything, while all is in doubt was Selmy. He is the sole other person, other than the Hand, sworn to the throne and the legal heir.

10 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

You also forgot about Stannis.

Stannis wasn't in the throne room or even in KL for over half a year to do anything. 

Stannis knows though and he chose his life and did nothing, leaving it to Ned to do it for him.

[Agent 326]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Renly had no idea and knew Stannis couldn't prove it. He just didn't care. How the hell would Loras know?

Loras would know because remember what he was doing back in AGOT. He was trying to get Robert to set aside Cersei and make Margery the new queen. Also Renly almost certainly listens to gossip and the rumors of Cersei's children being illegitimate is almost certainly being spread by someone (how else do you explain so many characters coming to this conclusion and at the same time it isn't public knowledge). The signs point to Littlefinger because he doesn't claim to be aware of them but at the same time appears to be aware of them. But that is something for a different thread.

 

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

If Joffrey was trueborn, then Ned wouldn't have accused him of not being the legal heir. He'd have taken up the regency over Joffrey and tried to be his Hand as best as he could. Cersei fully admitted to Ned Stark that all her children are Jaime's.

Ugh, it was just a fucking example okay. I know that Ned wouldn't be there if they were trueborn but that's not the point.

 

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Stannis wasn't in the throne room or even in KL for over half a year to do anything. 

Stannis knows though and he chose his life and did nothing, leaving it to Ned to do it for him.

Yes but Stannis was still a member of the small council.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Agent 326 said:

Loras would know because remember what he was doing back in AGOT. He was trying to get Robert to set aside Cersei and make Margery the new queen. Also Renly almost certainly listens to gossip and the rumors of Cersei's children being illegitimate is almost certainly being spread by someone (how else do you explain so many characters coming to this conclusion and at the same time it isn't public knowledge). The signs point to Littlefinger because he doesn't claim to be aware of them but at the same time appears to be aware of them. But that is something for a different thread.

Yeah that's a load of bull. Please name all the people who come to the conclusion that Cersei's children are Jaime's, not Robert's , before Stannis sent his letter. I think there are 3 definite names on it. LF or Varys might know. Once again, if Renly does think it, he knows he can't prove it and neither can Stannis.

Renly was trying to get Marg to marry Robert because he thought Cersei would try to kill him and the Lannisters weren't merciful. Nothing in there about believing the illegitimacy to either Ned or Catelyn (despite knowing about Stannis' letter). Loras and his family just wanted a Tyrell on the throne.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Agent 326 said:

Loras would know because remember what he was doing back in AGOT. He was trying to get Robert to set aside Cersei and make Margery the new queen.

Actually that doesn't prove that Loras knows. That Robert and Cersei despise each other, that Robert is leacherous for other far younger women could be motivation enough.

 

2 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Also Renly almost certainly listens to gossip and the rumors of Cersei's children being illegitimate is almost certainly being spread by someone (how else do you explain so many characters coming to this conclusion and at the same time it isn't public knowledge)

It are Varys and LF who know it and who inform those they wish to know it. It's not certain either would tell Renly. Varys always knew because of his little birds. LF knew, because he has brothels where Robert's bastards are born, and follows Jon Arryn's and Stannis's investigations.

 

5 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

The signs point to Littlefinger because he doesn't claim to be aware of them but at the same time appears to be aware of them.

Huh? LF leads Ned to the evidence, and when Ned tells him that he cannot back Joffrey because he's not the legal heir the night that Robert dies, LF says "who the hell cares".

6 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Yes but Stannis was still a member of the small council.

You brought up the throne room situation. Yes, Stannis is one more of the small council who knows, but Stannis isn't there, nor was he the night before. Now you're just arguing to argue.

[Agent 326]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah that's a load of bull. Please name all the people who come to the conclusion that Cersei's children are Jaime's, not Robert's , before Stannis sent his letter. I think there are 3 definite names on it. LF or Varys might know. Once again, if Renly does think it, he knows he can't prove it and neither can Stannis.

Renly was trying to get Marg to marry Robert because he thought Cersei would try to kill him and the Lannisters weren't merciful. Nothing in there about believing the illegitimacy to either Ned or Catelyn (despite knowing about Stannis' letter). Loras and his family just wanted a Tyrell on the throne.

Challenge accepted

Stannis

Varys

Ned

Does Jon Arryn count?

Pycelle (maybe, or he maybe let Jon Arryn die because he knew Cersei needed him to die, and not from him knowing Cersei and Jaime's little secret)

Loras and Renly

Littlefinger

Illyrio? (Saying this because he was told by Varys and it seems as though they are familiar with this topic so who knows, maybe they visited each other more often then we think)

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually that doesn't prove that Loras knows. That Robert and Cersei despise each other, that Robert is leacherous for other far younger women could be motivation enough.

Yet Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen would all be big problems though. What good is that, Cersei still lives, Margery's children won't inherit the throne. Why not have Margery marry Renly or Joffrey? Yes Joffrey is to marry Sansa at this point but it seems like they where plotting a lot earlier Jon Arryn's death.

 

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It are Varys and LF who know it and who inform those they wish to know it. It's not certain either would tell Renly. Varys always knew because of his little birds. LF knew, because he has brothels where Robert's bastards are born, and follows Jon Arryn's and Stannis's investigations.

Yes but aren't a few of the brothels (that Littlefinger takes Ned to) not owned by Littlefinger? Can't remember.

And Littlefinger has a spy network second only to Varys's. And he is known for being sneaky, so he may have caught Cersei and Jaime in the act at one point. It wouldn't surprise me. And Littlefinger is known for spreading rumors.

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Well, Brandon had committed treason, so the execution in and of itself would not be all that unjustified. However, considering the political fuck-up his own son had just caused with Lyanna, a sane, smart Aerys would probably have used Brandon as leverage to calm the situation down. Certainly, the Stark family would have to be punished but Brandon might have been given his life and freedom in exchange for, say, Ned and Benjen as royal 'guests' or the like. Rickard and Aerys could certainly have worked out something cordial; indeed, considering the severity of Brandon's crime Aerys might actually have been able to make Rickard more loyal with a calm head and a strong but fair deal.

Jaime makes no mention of torture, or of Brandon appearing tortured, despite the detail he gives us regarding his execution and the execution of Rickard. Care to supply some evidence that Rickard was plotting something treasonous that justified a lack of a trial? Also, were the fathers of all of Brandon's companions part of the plot as well? Arryn, Royce, Mallister and Glover were all traitors too? You can't just state that this was the case with a total lack of textual evidence. All we know about Rickard is that he had 'Southron Ambitions' - and that comes from a source whose reliability is unknown. And Southron Ambitions could be anything from plans to replace the Targaryens to making the Starks slightly more important in court politics.

"Brandon.  Yes, Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  Winterfell, you, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

p. 60, AGOT.

It sems to me that Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were plotting their treason for years.  The pregnant lady that Bran saw, that could have been the mother of Rickard seeking revenge against the Targaryens. 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

And Littlefinger is known for spreading rumors.

LF is known for choosing which lie and which truth to say to whom. You have no evidence that LF told Renly anything in that regard.

 

9 minutes ago, Agent 326 said:

Yet Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen would all be big problems though. What good is that, Cersei still lives, Margery's children won't inherit the throne. Why not have Margery marry Renly or Joffrey? Yes Joffrey is to marry Sansa at this point but it seems like they where plotting a lot earlier Jon Arryn's death.

Lysa Arryn and LF plotted to murder Jon Arryn, both because Jon was getting too buddy-buddy with Stannis. Once Jon realized the whole truth he would do what Ned tried to do - side with Stannis and make him legal heir, and after learning of such a betrayal, Robert would clean up his council and house and KL big time. LF's career would be over. Meanwhile Lysa didn't want her son to be taken from her and sent to Dragonstone. Nor does LF want this, because then Stannis has Jon Arryn's heir as potential hostage. If anything happend to Jon Arryn once Stannis has Sweetrobin on Dragonstone, then Stannis would have the Vale as a military force at hand. LF could even forget about his meager tower and sheep pellets then.

As for Joffrey ,Myrcella and Tommen. Robert disliked Joffrey as much as Cersei. Joffrey can be manouvered away for madness or something. Tommen can have an accident. And once Margaery births a son to Robert, then Myrcella comes after that son.

[Agent 326]

11 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

"Brandon.  Yes, Brandon would know what to do.  He always did.  It was all meant for Brandon.  Winterfell, you, everything.  He was born to be a king's hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

p. 60, AGOT.

It sems to me that Rickard Stark and Robert Baratheon were plotting their treason for years.  The pregnant lady that Bran saw, that could have been the mother of Rickard seeking revenge against the Targaryens. 

Ummmmmm, ahhhhhhh, nope, First off Rickard at that point was about the same age as Ned was at the start of AGOT if not older, which means that his mother would not be able to have another child she would be too old. Also Robert and Rickard? No if you're going to speculate on things, do it right. Southern Ambitions are something we associate with maesters.