Was Daenerys impregnated by Daario?

[zandru]

Lots of misconceptions about female reproductive biology by you guys! Maybe you ought to meet some women! (I'm sorry; that was unworthy.)

18 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Also a weird fact but women having her period once a month actually didn't start until the early twentieth century when a few people decided that women would be more fertile this way so they put something in the milk to cause that (No I don't know what it is) so when they drank milk from the farms.

Total nonsense, as has been noted by Ygrain and others.

12 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

As long as she's gallivanting about Essos, any babies she might carry will fail to quicken. It's nigh impossible to carry a baby to term with that much rough physical activity.

Ditto. Dany's physical activity is not "rough" (she's the khaleesi, after all, and has servants who do everything for her but chew her food). Plenty of women undergo much, much more physical activity without any problems carrying babies to term.

I agree with the premise, however, that Dany miscarried. But this speculation here seems unnecessarily conspiratorial/magical:

19 hours ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

Wild speculation: Could Quaithe use the glass candles to cause some sort of abortion?

There are plenty of other reasons Daenerys could have miscarried. Damage due to Mirri Maz Duur's ministrations - after all, Mirri made that "prediction" and maybe it was something she had engineered herself. Lysa-like frequent miscarriages after a terminated pregnancy. Malnutrition after flying off on Drogon and having zero-to-irregular meals for a long, long time. This may be the most likely, in fact. Et cetera.

The amount of blood, the clots, the severe cramping all make it more likely this was a miscarriage ("spontaneous abortion"), and not just a heavy menstrual period. Dany was familiar with her own menstrual periods - they're generally pretty consistent. She even marked the phase of the moon when she was "due", so she's pretty much in touch with her body.

And what motive would Quaithe even have?

[HaeSuse]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Ditto. Dany's physical activity is not "rough" (she's the khaleesi, after all, and has servants who do everything for her but chew her food). Plenty of women undergo much, much more physical activity without any problems carrying babies to term.

I agree with the premise, however, that Dany miscarried. But this speculation here seems unnecessarily conspiratorial/magical:

 

It explicitly sets a tone of her having been rough and physical. Her feet blistered and sore. Sick and weary. She'd been on a horse, and knowing Dany, she didn't plod along at an easy trot. Sure her people do things for her, but not ride for her. Not walk for her. 

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have pretty much always thought this as well. She was pregnant and then aborted because of the berries, or the shitty water, or even because the plague has touched her in some way when she touched the plague victims back in Meereen. 

I had a look at the timelines - it is unclear how much time Dany spent on Dragonstone, but it must have been several days. Two days before she made her descent, she spied the stream, and she definitely spent more than two days riding Drogon trying to direct him to Meereen, which led to the realisation that no matter what, he would always return to his lair for the night. Infections of the gastrointestinal tract seem to have a relatively short incubation period, from hours to several days at most, and the conditions at Dragonstone (cold and little nutrition) would most likely facilitate the onset. I also think she wouldn't recover so fast.

Dany vomited an hour after she ate the berries, which was a really stupid idea - even if she got it right that it was the kind the Dothraki used for seasoning, things used for seasoning are not to be eaten by handfuls, and doing so on a starved stomach was doubly reckless. E.g., juniper berries are commonly used for seasoning venison, but they were also used as a contraceptive/abortificant, IIRC, so this may be what GRRM might have had in mind when he had her eat those berries.

The stream water is definitely not off the hook, though - shallow, muddy, exposed to the sun, that's practically a festering ground for various organisms that would cause one hell of a problem when digested.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I had a look at the timelines - it is unclear how much time Dany spent on Dragonstone, but it must have been several days. Two days before she made her descent, she spied the stream, and she definitely spent more than two days riding Drogon trying to direct him to Meereen, which led to the realisation that no matter what, he would always return to his lair for the night. Infections of the gastrointestinal tract seem to have a relatively short incubation period, from hours to several days at most, and the conditions at Dragonstone (cold and little nutrition) would most likely facilitate the onset. I also think she wouldn't recover so fast.

Dany vomited an hour after she ate the berries, which was a really stupid idea - even if she got it right that it was the kind the Dothraki used for seasoning, things used for seasoning are not to be eaten by handfuls, and doing so on a starved stomach was doubly reckless. E.g., juniper berries are commonly used for seasoning venison, but they were also used as a contraceptive/abortificant, IIRC, so this may be what GRRM might have had in mind when he had her eat those berries.

The stream water is definitely not off the hook, though - shallow, muddy, exposed to the sun, that's practically a festering ground for various organisms that would cause one hell of a problem when digested.

Hey, good research. Thanks. That answers a lot. 

[Rhae_Valarie]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

That is basically correct. Dany asks when he would be as he was, but then Mirri sort of gives her a weird answer of "then he will be returned to you". Considering that death in childbirth is a reoccurring theme in the story, I'm betting Dany will bear a living child and die in the process.

It is an interesting idea! What do you think would be the significance of Dany's child? Would it be Azor Ahai? Or just a baby?

[zandru]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

It explicitly sets a tone of her having been rough and physical. Her feet blistered and sore. Sick and weary. She'd been on a horse, and knowing Dany, she didn't plod along at an easy trot.

No, that's not enough. Miscarriages are caused more by something wrong with the embryo than by physical activity of the host; this has been known for some time. (But it's always served as a good enough excuse to deny women the right to participate in -- oh, almost any activity that men wanted reserved for themselves.)

Besides, when did Dany last ride a horse? She's been sitting on her --er, bench -- in Meereen for months; the ride(s) on Drogon were the most recent major "activity." I'm inclined to the "starvation" hypothesis for her miscarriage, but a deformed fetus (due to her or to Daario; all that beard dye probably caused long term sperm damage), or even the "juniper berry abortifacient" theory seem reasonable, too. Physical activity, no.

 

[HaeSuse]

3 minutes ago, zandru said:

No, that's not enough. Miscarriages are caused more by something wrong with the embryo than by physical activity of the host; this has been known for some time. (But it's always served as a good enough excuse to deny women the right to participate in -- oh, almost any activity that men wanted reserved for themselves.)

Besides, when did Dany last ride a horse? She's been sitting on her --er, bench -- in Meereen for months; the ride(s) on Drogon were the most recent major "activity." I'm inclined to the "starvation" hypothesis for her miscarriage, but a deformed fetus (due to her or to Daario; all that beard dye probably caused long term sperm damage), or even the "juniper berry abortifacient" theory seem reasonable, too. Physical activity, no.

 

Then why were her feet blistered and sore?

[velo-knight]

17 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes this has been discussed many times and yes she was pregnant. Dany only thinks she is barren because she has a bad habit of misinterpreting prophecies. The prophecy seems to imply that she will die in child birth and be reunited with Drogo in death.

Dany ironically went to great lengths to avoid having her womanly parts inspected, when really there was nothing wrong with her.

See, I also think that, but I pray I'm wrong, because I would hate that so much. As if the Dead Ladies Club needed more members.

[zandru]

46 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

Then why were her feet blistered and sore?

Because she walked some distance without shoes? Walking isn't horribly strenuous physical activity, the type of massive straining that's presumed to cause miscarriage. The many days of near starvation, as I said, are more likely the cause. Walking for days is an added stress, but largely as a driver of further starvation. Then there's the "something wrong with the embryo" reason.

44 minutes ago, velo-knight said:

As if the Dead Ladies Club needed more members.

Bless you, ser!

[Guilherme Rubira]

18 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes this has been discussed many times and yes she was pregnant. Dany only thinks she is barren because she has a bad habit of misinterpreting prophecies. The prophecy seems to imply that she will die in child birth and be reunited with Drogo in death.

It's a possibility, but Dany's question was:

 

“When will he be as he was?” Dany demanded."

 

She never asked when she would be reunited with Drogo.

 

[HaeSuse]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

Because she walked some distance without shoes? Walking isn't horribly strenuous physical activity, the type of massive straining that's presumed to cause miscarriage. The many days of near starvation, as I said, are more likely the cause. Walking for days is an added stress, but largely as a driver of further starvation. Then there's the "something wrong with the embryo" reason.

 

I did a bunch of googling. The interwebs seem to agree with you. The doctors who have delivered all 4 of my children disagree heavily, but what the hell do they know. I'll side with a scientific journal over a random OBGYN any day.

 

However, there is one point to note. Does GRRM know this? In my life, it has been "common knowledge" that strenuous activity DOES increase chance of miscarriage. This common knowledge is, clearly, wrong. However, if GRRM was under the same auspices of "common knowledge" that I, my wife, my parents, my in-laws, my coworkers, my siblings, my siblings-in-law, and our OBGYN's were under, then he could've caused the miscarriage based on the same misinformation.
 

[zandru]

10 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

The doctors who have delivered all 4 of my children disagree heavily, but what the hell do they know.

Well, it was doctrinaire for a long time that pregnant women didn't dare exert themselves in any way, lest they miscarry. Way back in the day, pregnancy was also known as "confinement" because the woman was under what amounted to house arrest and bed rest. I've always thought it was a combination of men wanting to exclude women from lucrative occupations, and women being grateful to have men fawning over them and carrying things for them that caused this philosophy to persist so long.

As you've found - good work, by the way! - current practice is otherwise. You make a good point about GRRM. But he wrote that book in the 21st century AND has a close circle of friends who include younger, more up to date women (including MDs). So maybe not.

[Castellan]

On 21 June 2017 at 5:55 AM, snow is the man said:

Well if she is not gonna have children then maybe it is because she can't carry them to full term. I mean according to that witch's prophecy.

I still don't understand why she wasn't drinking moon tea just to make sure. Also a weird fact but women having her period once a month actually didn't start until the early twentieth century when a few people decided that women would be more fertile this way so they put something in the milk to cause that (No I don't know what it is) so when they drank milk from the farms. Weird fact I know

False fact I know. Along with the idea that girls periods started much later until the 20th century good nutrition.This idea was based on 19th English parliamentary inquiries into child labour where girls working in mines and factories asserted they hadn't got their periods. Because there was an idea once they became women they needed protection from hard labour.

[HaeSuse]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

As you've found - good work, by the way! - current practice is otherwise. You make a good point about GRRM. But he wrote that book in the 21st century AND has a close circle of friends who include younger, more up to date women (including MDs). So maybe not.

Mine are all under 9 years old. I wouldn't say current practice. Current science yes. And maybe current practice some places. And some doctors. But I'm a millennial.

[Castellan]

On 21 June 2017 at 5:23 AM, Guilherme Rubira said:

 

Wild speculation: Could Quaithe use the glass candles to cause some sort of abortion?
I mean, if her endgame is to help Daenerys invade Westeros (Shiera Seastar or not), it's in her best interest to prevent a stronger bond with Daario Naharis.
Dany just had a very odd dream about Viserys (probably sent by Quaithe), which reminded her of the iron throne...

 

Apologies for the bad english!

does seem pretty wild....

I have had the equally weird idea that Dany is the one character who somehow influences events so prophecies don't turn out the way events were foreseen. Or at least she defeats other people's magic. I mean she mucked up Mirri's sorcery by fainting and being taken into the tent. That is, if Mirri's intention was that Rhaego be sacrificed to keep Drogo alive. No doubt Mirri liked the idea of doing of stopping the Stallion mounting the world. But I presume Mirri didn't know that Dany had her own magic - she was already on her way to hatching those eggs and it was the eggs that took the life force of Rhaego and left reptilian remains in her womb. Then, many people see the situation in Mereen as fitting the prophecy of when she would bear a living child. - the sea running dry is the dry Dothraki sea, the mountains blowing in the wind seems to be a permanent condition in Mereen because the nearby mountain range has been made a desert and so red dust blows everywhere, but some people take it as dust from the pyramid, the sun rising in in the East was Quentyn etc .. but she is not bearing a living child, she is in fact miscarrying. I think the idea is the stress and the berries she ate has brought it on. So she has perhaps confounded that possible future too..

I tend to think she will never bear a child though because i think GRRM's world is pretty horrible and no-one is going to have a clear cut happy ending.... 

 

 

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

It is an interesting idea! What do you think would be the significance of Dany's child? Would it be Azor Ahai? Or just a baby?

LOL I think no one is Azor Ahai because it is a bullshit prophecy and R'hllor doesn't exist. But Dany certainly has special genes. I don't doubt her child would have the potential to ride a dragon if dragons are still around in the end. But there may be no significance to Dany's child at all.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, Castellan said:

does seem pretty wild....

I have had the equally weird idea that Dany is the one character who somehow influences events so prophecies don't turn out the way events were foreseen. Or at least she defeats other people's magic. I mean she mucked up Mirri's sorcery by fainting and being taken into the tent. That is, if Mirri's intention was that Rhaego be sacrificed to keep Drogo alive. No doubt Mirri liked the idea of doing of stopping the Stallion mounting the world. But I presume Mirri didn't know that Dany had her own magic - she was already on her way to hatching those eggs and it was the eggs that took the life force of Rhaego and left reptilian remains in her womb. Then, many people see the situation in Mereen as fitting the prophecy of when she would bear a living child. - the sea running dry is the dry Dothraki sea, the mountains blowing in the wind seems to be a permanent condition in Mereen because the nearby mountain range has been made a desert and so red dust blows everywhere, but some people take it as dust from the pyramid, the sun rising in in the East was Quentyn etc .. but she is not bearing a living child, she is in fact miscarrying. I think the idea is the stress and the berries she ate has brought it on. So she has perhaps confounded that possible future too..

I tend to think she will never bear a child though because i think GRRM's world is pretty horrible and no-one is going to have a clear cut happy ending.... 

That is one reason why it would make perfect sense for her to die in childbirth

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 hours ago, velo-knight said:

See, I also think that, but I pray I'm wrong, because I would hate that so much. As if the Dead Ladies Club needed more members.

LOL you should try reading some other GRRM stories and get a sense of his endings. He does not write "happy" endings.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, Guilherme Rubira said:

It's a possibility, but Dany's question was:

 

“When will he be as he was?” Dany demanded."

 

She never asked when she would be reunited with Drogo.

I know that's not exactly what Dany asked, but that is the answer that MMD gave her. I think the basic reason for this oddly worded answer is that MMD knows Drogo's "soul" is already gone because Drogo probably died and was resurrected. His body is an empty vessel of sorts, possibly containing the soul of his horse. So when Dany asked When will he be as he was? MMD answers the question in a way that refers to Drogo's soul (which is already in the afterlife) and not his body.

Quote

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Maybe MMD simply meant: Drogo will be as he was when you are dead, because he is already dead and waiting for you in the afterlife.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, it was doctrinaire for a long time that pregnant women didn't dare exert themselves in any way, lest they miscarry. Way back in the day, pregnancy was also known as "confinement" because the woman was under what amounted to house arrest and bed rest. I've always thought it was a combination of men wanting to exclude women from lucrative occupations, and women being grateful to have men fawning over them and carrying things for them that caused this philosophy to persist so long.

As you've found - good work, by the way! - current practice is otherwise. You make a good point about GRRM. But he wrote that book in the 21st century AND has a close circle of friends who include younger, more up to date women (including MDs). So maybe not.

I would only point out that while my doctor basically told me to do as I pleased, within reason, this changed considerably when my pregnancy turned somewhat problematic. Since my "embryo" is almost ten now, I don't think there was anything wrong with him. My ex sister-in-law was indeed confined to bed rest for almost two months when about half-through the pregnancy. So, perhaps it is not just the problem of embryo but some bodily mechanisms not kicking up as they should, which then might lead to miscarriage.

1 hour ago, Castellan said:

False fact I know. Along with the idea that girls periods started much later until the 20th century good nutrition.This idea was based on 19th English parliamentary inquiries into child labour where girls working in mines and factories asserted they hadn't got their periods. Because there was an idea once they became women they needed protection from hard labour.

I certainly cannot claim experty but the text I read stated this difference in rural girls, and not England.