'Watchmen' TV Series From Damon Lindelof on HBO {SPOILERS FROM PAGE 8}

[Knight of Ashes]

10 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

Am I the only one who loved the movie?....lol

 

No, the movie is something I rewatch fairly regularly ;though, I always wished they included the part where Ozymandias says that should nuclear war happen, that not only the world's present and future be canceled but also its past as well, wiping everything that was accomplished save for a plaque on the moon bearing Richard Nixon's name.

I'm not on Ozzy's side but you know...

[Ramsay B.]

I agree with most here. If the movie never came out or sucked then I could get behind this, but it was good and covered mostly everything. Just an odd decision by HBO in my eyes.

[Calibandar]

15 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

Am I the only one who loved the movie?....lol

I think that HBO is feeling the heat of competition... for a long time they were head and shoulders above everyone else with their quality of programming... When they ere making the Sopranos, and the Wire, there was nothing that good anywhere else on TV.... now Netflix, Amazon and Starz are playing in the same league... even basic cable has upped the game... 

So now after a lull --when Game of Thrones was their only really big hit-- after a failed Vinyl, they've gone gone back-to back with Westworld and the Deuce.... I don;t think they'd choose this property without careful consideration...

I agree. Watchmen was a great film and HBO is definitely sensing the competition, and they let go of potential projects like American Gods. I do think the Watchmen tv series can be really excellent, they will have plenty of episodes to expand upon what is an interesting story in principle. By the time it comes out it will be 9-10 years since the movie. I'd like to see new work in the setting.

[Ran]

Go read the abortion that is Before Watchmen. A lot of creators lowered themselves in my esteem because they signed up for, and defended, taking part in something they knew was against Moore’s wishes. 

 

Heaven forfend HBO follow up an adaptation with new stories.

 

 

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Go read the abortion that is Before Watchmen. A lot of creators lowered themselves in my esteem because they signed up for, and defended, taking part in something they knew was against Moore’s wishes.

 

Even if you set aside the fact that these were only his 'original characters' because he couldn't permission to use Charlton Comics characters so he used thinly veiled expys instead, in a work for hire for the company, this is a man who wrote a porn comic about Alice from Wonderland, Lucy from Oz and Wendy from NeverNeverLand so he hasn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to complaints about other people doing questionable things with 'his' characters. Fuck Moore's wishes.

[MisterOJ]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 

Even if you set aside the fact that these were only his 'original characters' because he couldn't permission to use Charlton Comics characters so he used thinly veiled expys instead, in a work for hire for the company, this is a man who wrote a porn comic about Alice from Wonderland, Lucy from Oz and Wendy from NeverNeverLand so he hasn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to complaints about other people doing questionable things with 'his' characters. Fuck Moore's wishes.

Pretty much this. Sure, Before Watchmen was pretty much a flop, but screw that bushy haired wizard. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 

Even if you set aside the fact that these were only his 'original characters' because he couldn't permission to use Charlton Comics characters so he used thinly veiled expys instead, in a work for hire for the company, this is a man who wrote a porn comic about Alice from Wonderland, Lucy from Oz and Wendy from NeverNeverLand so he hasn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to complaints about other people doing questionable things with 'his' characters. Fuck Moore's wishes.

Public domain characters substantially transformed. Great comics, by the by. Also does a fine job satirizing James Bond and Harry Potter in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Everyone knows and understand that the agreement with Moore was NOT a work-for-hire -- the rights were to return to him and Gibbons when the book went out of print, which means this was a transfer of rights for a limited time. Little did he know that DC would abuse his trust.  But everyone in the industry knows what's what.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Public domain characters substantially transformed. Great comics, by the by. Also does a fine job satirizing James Bond and Harry Potter in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Everyone knows and understand that the agreement with Moore was NOT a work-for-hire -- the rights were to return to him and Gibbons when the book went out of print, which means this was a transfer of rights for a limited time. Little did he know that DC would abuse his trust.  But everyone in the industry knows what's what.

The public domain thing really doesn't have much to do with the issue. Point is, he took characters he has a right to use and fucked with them (and while we can't know that the initial creators wouldn't like it, it probably isn't a wild leap to suggest they might not). And DC have taken characters they had a right to use, and in his eyes fucked with them.

The manner by which the rights came to still be theirs is a different issue, and while it's entirely possible that Moore is right to feel screwed, it doesn't seem at all dodgy to me that one of the most popular comics ever created has never gone out of print. It seems like DC would have to go out of their way to put it out of print to give him the rights back. He's bragged on about in the past that he knew he was getting DC loads of extra money and attention, so it feels disingenuous for him (in the same interview!) to be doing that and then going I didn't know it was going to be popular! In any case he has just been the most gigantic arsehole about the issue to absolutely everyone who feels differently to him, including Dave Gibbons, as well as being completely up his own arse about the quality of the work of other writers (those involved in the Before Watchmen! project and not). And again, for all that he blathers on about him 'creating the characters to work as an ensemble' and 'making it on the understanding he'd own it', he initially came up with it as a story featuring old Charlton Comics characters- Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, The Question etc- and reworked it when they didn't give him permission, so that's at least partially a lie too.

 

 

Long and short, though, he's a dickhead and I have little sympathy or respect for him as a person, as much as I admire him enormously as a creator.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Moore is an eccentric dickhead, no doubt, but DC should do the right thing here and pay both him and Gibbons off. This isn't quite to the level of say Schuster and Siegel, as Moore is already quite rich, but it is in the same vein. They deserve a piece of the pie here.

[polishgenius]

18 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Moore is an eccentric dickhead, no doubt, but DC should do the right thing here and pay both him and Gibbons off. This isn't quite to the level of say Schuster and Siegel, as Moore is already quite rich, but it is in the same vein. They deserve a piece of the pie here.

They get paid (and Moore has repeatedly turned down extra money he's been owed or offered for films and such). That isn't the problem.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

They get paid (and Moore has repeatedly turned down extra money he's been owed or offered for films and such). That isn't the problem.

I thought Gibbon's got paid (for the film), but Moore did not. Or maybe Moore refused payment? I don't know, I'm confused now.

[polishgenius]

9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I thought Gibbon's got paid (for the film), but Moore did not. Or maybe Moore refused payment? I don't know, I'm confused now.

Yeah, Moore refused.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Yeah, Moore refused.

Ah okay then. Not sure what he's griping about in that case. As has been mentioned, he more or less stole the templates for all of those characters directly from Charlton Comics. 

[Bronn Stone]

The opening credits montage of the movie is awesome.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Bronn Stone said:

The opening credits montage of the movie is awesome.

Oh yeah. Paired perfectly with that Dylan song. There were so many shot for shot recreations from panels of the comic that were perfect that Gibbons should've been paid as an Art Director. 

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Ah okay then. Not sure what he's griping about in that case. As has been mentioned, he more or less stole the templates for all of those characters directly from Charlton Comics. 

The fact that people out this down to money and that Moore is a crank because he DOESN'T want it anyways shocks me. Creator's rights are a thing that go beyond cash. It's morality. DC had acted abominably towards Moore and his wishes towards the property which he has rights to and which DC assured he'd train rights to.

 

The Charlton thing is a fine case in point -- those characters are absolutely legit in a world of comics where everyone has thinly veiled characters based on one another's works (Squadron Supreme, anyone?) and a gentleman's agreement exists not to chase after one another. Does anyone doubt that the comic would still be as powerful if Moore had taken inspiration from the old Golden Key characters if he had done such instead of the Charlton characters? The characters he had are really just archetypes and you could as easily come up with any other combination of brilliant villain, driven vigilante, gadget guy, god-like superhuman, etc., etc. There's no lie to the idea that once it was his own characters he felt free to engineer a story he considers complete unto itself (and it really is -- there are no genuine questions left that the story itself did not deliberately pose, which is part of why BEFORE WATCHMEN was such BS.)

Bring eccentric doesn't make him any less right about this. WATCHMEN was sui generis, the first superhero graphic novel to have such success in a tune when comics had been far more disposable. That Moore had now washed his hands of it just means that DC's abuse is being rewarded by credulous consumers who care about their own pleasure over the creators who provided that enjoyment in the first place.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

50 minutes ago, Ran said:

The fact that people out this down to money and that Moore is a crank because he DOESN'T want it anyways shocks me. Creator's rights are a thing that go beyond cash. It's morality. DC had acted abominably towards Moore and his wishes towards the property which he has rights to and which DC assured he'd train rights to.

The Charlton thing is a fine case in point -- those characters are absolutely legit in a world of comics where everyone has thinly veiled characters based on one another's works (Squadron Supreme, anyone?) and a gentleman's agreement exists not to chase after one another. Does anyone doubt that the comic would still be as powerful if Moore had taken inspiration from the old Golden Key characters if he had done such instead of the Charlton characters? The characters he had are really just archetypes and you could as easily come up with any other combination of brilliant villain, driven vigilante, gadget guy, god-like superhuman, etc., etc. There's no lie to the idea that once it was his own characters he felt free to engineer a story he considers complete unto itself (and it really is -- there are no genuine questions left that the story itself did not deliberately pose, which is part of why BEFORE WATCHMEN was such BS.)

Bring eccentric doesn't make him any less right about this. WATCHMEN was sui generis, the first superhero graphic novel to have such success in a tune when comics had been far more disposable. That Moore had now washed his hands of it just means that DC's abuse is being rewarded by credulous consumers who care about their own pleasure over the creators who provided that enjoyment in the first place.

Solid points all. I'm not going to defend DC here, as they have proven to be as underhanded as any company of this sort that routinely underpays and exploits artistic talent. That said, I'm not sure I can fully support Moore's position either. If it were up to him, there never would've been a Watchmen movie. Despite its' many faults, I'd say this movie is probably the paen of all comic book movies in terms of honoring the source material. It's practically the filming of a comic book. I think most fans of the property would rather the film have been made than not. 

 You're right in the fact that you have to give Moore points for refuting the big payday based on his personal beliefs. That should be lauded. That said, the man is a crank. A fabulously talented crank, granted, but a crank nonetheless. As good as Watchmen is, I'd say it's not even his best work.

[polishgenius]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

The fact that people out this down to money and that Moore is a crank because he DOESN'T want it anyways shocks me. Creator's rights are a thing that go beyond cash. It's morality. DC had acted abominably towards Moore and his wishes towards the property which he has rights to and which DC assured he'd train rights to.

 

I think Moore's stance on the money and his name on the products is perfectly fair and well-played. It's his behaviour and language in all other aspects that makes me think he's a total arsehole. Not an eccentric, an arsehole. And the more I read around about the subject, the more I think he's a fucker with a superiority complex and a dash of paranoia going on who can't handle the fact that he knowingly signed a deal that in the end proved not to favour him. The fact that his co-creators have never seemed unhappy with the deals (and David Lloyd appears to have called Moore out for the claim that he's shocked about the V for Vendetta situation, claiming they both knew what whas what when they signed the deal) just makes it moreso. And in that instance Moore is even less right to pitch his hissies, given that Lloyd was the driving force behind the comic who brought Moore on to help him do it.

 

4 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

There's no lie to the idea that once it was his own characters he felt free to engineer a story he considers complete unto itself

The reason he wasn't given the old characters was because he'd engineered a story that was complete unto itself and DC felt they wouldn't be able to use the characters again afterwards. He says he did  feel more freedom once DC enforced the decision on him but before he went all bitter he made no bones about what the genesis of the strip was (here is a 2000ish interview about it all. In which he doesn't seem at all bothered by the rights situation. It basically seems as if all the stuff about 'oh we thought it was gonna come back to us' is a post-facto fabrication for Moore to have more ammo to bitch about it when really he's just - rightfully- bothered by the misuse of the characters he percieves).


Like, I'm not in any of their heads, I don't really know what went down, so all I have to go off are interviews and claims from the people involved (of which by far the most information comes from Moore's perspective), but he just comes off as an utter chode even on the points where I think he has a point and I've got no time for his disrespectful self-aggrandising bullshit.

[red snow]

10 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I thought Gibbon's got paid (for the film), but Moore did not. Or maybe Moore refused payment? I don't know, I'm confused now.

I think he went a step further and asked them to give his portion of money to the artist (he's done that with other projects too). It's stuff like that which makes me think it's too simplistic to think he's just a bitter old man. I think he just has a very strong sense of what's right and wrong to him personally.

10 hours ago, Bronn Stone said:

The opening credits montage of the movie is awesome.

Yeah, those credits had me thinking I was about to witness something really special. Oddly it was one of the few scenes where Snyder showed some imagination in actually adapting the comic to film rather than transcribing it. I also think his ending worked better for a film too.

I'm sounding like a broken record but it's a shame they didn't do a deal with Martin to make a wildcards show. The marketing just seems so much easier "from the creator of GOT" etc. Plus they'd have a load of material to adapt.

If they drag the TV show out long enough they may even wind up having DC superheroes in the show   as DC comics now feature said characters in some huge meta story. There's a possibility the comedian may be running around as a version of the Joker (there's apparently 3 jokers now). Ozymandias manipulating Superman and Dr Manhattan as the God of the DC universe.

I think the use of the characters in comics is more insulting to Moore - mainly due to the lack of respect shown by other comic creators using those characters.

Ultimately though I think he should just let it go. He has the option of being paid and these projects always increase sales of his comics. That and his "the watchmen" still exists and is still regarded as the best version. None of the spin-offs and adaptations destroy that - it's not like DC and Warner Brothers will ever replace it.

[Werthead]

Wild Cards is with SyFy though, so the options were not available. I am surprised that GRRM agreed to re-license the rights to SyFy after they'd sat on them for four or five years and not done anything with them. I get that SyFy made a cool new pitch as a TV show rather than a movie and they agreed to hire Melinda Snodgrass, so that all sounded good, but another two years (IIRC) down the line here we are with nothing to show for it. He really should have pushed the project at HBO, as you'd imagine a uniquely HBO take on superheroes would be interesting for them (as we now see).

The only other explanation is that HBO decided to do Watchmen years ago and made that clear to GRRM so he'd be able to shop Wild Cards elsewhere.