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'Watchmen' TV Series From Damon Lindelof on HBO {SPOILERS FROM PAGE 8}


AncalagonTheBlack

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Reviewers / Recappers / Previewers have me confused, because evidently they are.  They variously spell this organization of white supremacists "Seventh Kalvary", "Seventh Kavalry" and "Seventh Cavalry".  Which is correct, because, you know Kavalry and Kalvary (cavalry and Calvary) have two very different definitions and significances.

I am deeply disturbed by making what looks like an era in which black / white is still The Issue, whether alternate history or not, in the USA, where the cops are supposed to be the good guys?  This is so not historical in any nation or empire, etc., ever.  The seeming bonhomie between white and black in the cops not so much maybe, because, as has been dileneated in various studies and interviews, blue trumps all other colors for cops hanging together -- the blue wall of silence and all.  Depending how this is handled in the subsequent episode, this could derail the entire series.  For now I'm waiting to see, but I am asking questions.

Also, as DMC asked, "Where are the latinos? hmmmmm?" and where are the Asians -- because despite living in Vietnam for 2 years as a child, Angela Abraham is African American.    Also, um, Oklahoma -- Native Americans? where are they? But this is only the first episode.

I am wondering who was the baby girl picked up by the little boy who was given the note, "Watch Over Him".

Gotta say though, so far I'm not seeing any good guys here.

I was impressed at their staging of the Tulsa massacre - riot for tv -- it was tv and staged -- so much cleaner than the real thing and much smaller, but it was pretty good.

ETA:  O yah -- IMDB has Judd Crawford in nine episodes, so ... ?  Saw also on IMDB that the title of next week's episode is "Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship." I suppose ... nevermind that Oklahoma isn't Comanche territory.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I am deeply disturbed by making what looks like an era in which black / white is still The Issue, whether alternate history or not, in the USA, where the cops are supposed to be the good guys?  This is so not historical in any nation or empire, etc., ever.  The seeming bonhomie between white and black in the cops not so much maybe, because, as has been dileneated in various studies and interviews, blue trumps all other colors for cops hanging together -- the blue wall of silence and all.  Depending how this is handled in the subsequent episode, this could derail the entire series.  For now I'm waiting to see, but I am asking questions.

Yeah a lot of reviewers brought this up, but apparently they somehow address it:

Quote

Here’s where things get tricky, and why the pilot, which screened at New York Comic Con, has drawn some criticism for setting up what looks like a false dichotomy between the Tulsa police and white nationalists. But Lindelof and his co-executive producers Kassell, Tom Spezialy, and Stephen Williams quickly earn back trust with the second hour, then in subsequent episodes that are full of graceful world-building, deft characterization, nuanced writing, but little thin-blue-line boosterism. 

 

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

ETA:  O yah -- IMDB has Judd Crawford in nine episodes, so ... ?

Last I heard anyone could make an account and edit the IMDB pages, so it's not generally considered trustworthy until something has aired. 

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I am assuming the old guy in the wheelchair is the young boy from the opening. How old did he say he was, 103 or 106? It's 2019, so he would have been 5 or 8 in the opening scene, was that a 5 year old or an 8 year old?

Could he be an outlawed superhero? One of the premises of Watchmen, from what I've read, is that superheroes were banned. How else did he lift a 200 pound man?

I would not assume the cops are the good guys. I think that everything might not, to use the phrase, be black and white when it comes to good guys and bad guys. The person who looks to be the hero beat the shit out of the white supremacist, blood came running under the door of the locked room. Whatever you think of white supremacists, a country where police feel they can beat someone very badly, or perhaps, to death, is not a good place.

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11 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I am assuming the old guy in the wheelchair is the young boy from the opening. How old did he say he was, 103 or 106? It's 2019, so he would have been 5 or 8 in the opening scene, was that a 5 year old or an 8 year old?

Could he be an outlawed superhero? One of the premises of Watchmen, from what I've read, is that superheroes were banned. How else did he lift a 200 pound man?

I would not assume the cops are the good guys. I think that everything might not, to use the phrase, be black and white when it comes to good guys and bad guys. The person who looks to be the hero beat the shit out of the white supremacist, blood came running under the door of the locked room. Whatever you think of white supremacists, a country where police feel they can beat someone very badly, or perhaps, to death, is not a good place.

In the comics there is only one actual superhero, and that's Dr. Manhattan.  All the other costumed heroes are like Batman.  No actual powers.  

It's possible that has changed, but I'd say the more likely scenario is that the wheelchair guy didn't actually lift the guy himself.

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13 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Could he be an outlawed superhero? One of the premises of Watchmen, from what I've read, is that superheroes were banned. How else did he lift a 200 pound man?

I doubt he was the one who strung up Judd Crawford. I think he just somehow knew it was happening. Again I didn't read the comic either, but in the movie the only character with actual super powers was Dr. Manhattan. Everyone else was just well trained at fighting. 

Edit: keep in mind they don't have cell phones or the internet in this world. So the old guy called Angela from somewhere else, and then went there to wait for her. He also seemed to know her bakery was not what it seemed.

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51 minutes ago, briantw said:

In the comics there is only one actual superhero, and that's Dr. Manhattan.  All the other costumed heroes are like Batman.  No actual powers.  

It's possible that has changed, but I'd say the more likely scenario is that the wheelchair guy didn't actually lift the guy himself.

He asked her if she thought he could lift 200 lbs. That's what it was about. 

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14 hours ago, Nictarion said:

People act like all he’s done is Lost. The Leftovers is one of the best shows in recent years, if not ever. 

Was going to say the same thing.  The Leftovers was an excellent show, and Lindelof has definitely earned my trust.

Also - thought the first episode of Watchmen was great.  Super excited for the rest of the season.

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There's a theory going around already that I will spoiler tag in case it's correct:

That Jeremy Irons is actually Dr. Manhattan living on Mars or elsewhere. The casual nudity, the title of his play, his servants seeming to be created by him. The castle Manhattan is shown making on mars apparently looks like Iron's character's estate.

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HBO has release some supplemental material at https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia

Some tidbits:

 

 

-After the events of the comic, Silk Specter took on a new vigilante identity as The Comedienne. She and Night Owl II kept fighting crime until they were arrested in 1995. She's now an FBI agent (played by Jean Smart.) and Dan is apparently still in federal custody. 

-Rorschach's journal was not widely believed, but people like the Seventh Kavalry believe it. Veidt retreated from public life sometime before 2012 when he was declared missing. his company was bought by a conglomerate. When they went to Antarctica to inform him of the sale he was just gone. He's recently been declared legally dead. He had no family. 

-The Seventh Kavalry seems to be just a local thing in Tulsa, but there are similar groups elsewhere. 

-Roger Ailes exists in this universe. Gross. He owns the New Frontiersman's parent company.

-After the squid incident basically all technology that Dr. Manhattan had contributed too was trashed out of (unfounded) fear it would cause cancer or open an inter-dimensional rift.  This is presumably what lead to the lack of internet and cell phones. Those old type lithium batteries the Kavalry were stockpiling are an example of this technology. Only now are police departments starting to use computers again. 

-Robert Redford has announced he will not seek an eighth term.

Also I didn't recognize the name Robert Deschaines so I googled it and now I'm guessing the old wheelchair guy could have some kinda similar powers of clairvoyance? 

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3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Reviewers / Recappers / Previewers have me confused, because evidently they are.  They variously spell this organization of white supremacists "Seventh Kalvary", "Seventh Kavalry" and "Seventh Cavalry".  Which is correct, because, you know Kavalry and Kalvary (cavalry and Calvary) have two very different definitions and significances.

I am deeply disturbed by making what looks like an era in which black / white is still The Issue, whether alternate history or not, in the USA, where the cops are supposed to be the good guys?  This is so not historical in any nation or empire, etc., ever.  The seeming bonhomie between white and black in the cops not so much maybe, because, as has been dileneated in various studies and interviews, blue trumps all other colors for cops hanging together -- the blue wall of silence and all.  Depending how this is handled in the subsequent episode, this could derail the entire series.  For now I'm waiting to see, but I am asking questions.

Also, as DMC asked, "Where are the latinos? hmmmmm?" and where are the Asians -- because despite living in Vietnam for 2 years as a child, Angela Abraham is African American.    Also, um, Oklahoma -- Native Americans? where are they? But this is only the first episode.

I am wondering who was the baby girl picked up by the little boy who was given the note, "Watch Over Him".

Gotta say though, so far I'm not seeing any good guys here.

I was impressed at their staging of the Tulsa massacre - riot for tv -- it was tv and staged -- so much cleaner than the real thing and much smaller, but it was pretty good.

ETA:  O yah -- IMDB has Judd Crawford in nine episodes, so ... ?  Saw also on IMDB that the title of next week's episode is "Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship." I suppose ... nevermind that Oklahoma isn't Comanche territory.

 

 

I think parts of Oklahoma were, as well as Texas, New Mexico and Kansas.

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I still haven't learned -- figuring you guys would know -- which spelling, which definition is correct among Seventh Kalvary, Seventh Kavalry and Seventh Cavalry.

And like the Bird, yah, I thougt a country in which a police force that did what Angela did to that suspect is not a good place to live, and cops cannot be the force for good, no matter what color of hat.  

 

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4 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I still haven't learned -- figuring you guys would know -- which spelling, which definition is correct among Seventh Kalvary, Seventh Kavalry and Seventh Cavalry.

And like the Bird, yah, I thougt a country in which a police force that did what Angela did to that suspect is not a good place to live, and cops cannot be the force for good, no matter what color of hat.  

 

It seems to be Seventh Kavalry according to these supplemental materials:

Quote

At the root of my concern is the enduring appeal of Walter Joseph Kovacs, aka Rorschach (Objectivist/Sociopath on the Werthem Spectrum), who shares more than a few things in common with Veidt, himself a former masked vigilante (Ozymandias; Savior/Narcissist). He, too, vanished off the face of the earth, and the lingering mystery of his absence continues to nag at the worrisome lot who revere him. Specifically: the Seventh Kavalry of Tulsa, Oklahoma, white supremacists who have appropriated Kovacs’ mask and see their own warped ideology reflected in the mad swirl of his ink blot face. We have reason to fear how the proverbial cult of Rorschach might respond if the Bureau quits the search for Veidt. These fogged, volatile personalities believe that Veidt is responsible for Kovacs’ disappearance. They want justice for their martyr-messiah; if we appear disinterested in that, we tempt their wrath. And we know exactly what that looks like.

 

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25 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It seems to be Seventh Kavalry

Thank you!  This is what I'd have thought due to them being white supremacists -- but the KKK just lurved putting up fiery crosses for all sorts of reasons, so kalvary it could have been.  What this means mostly is that most of these professional tv reviewers etc., including the NY Times recapper, don't know the difference, you know like so many don't know the difference between gantlet and guantlet.

Another worrisome aspect is that the cops wear masks within the context of what is going on right this minute in Hong Kong, where it has been made illegal to wear a mask.

 

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Another worrisome aspect is that the cops wear masks within the context of what is going on right this minute in Hong Kong, where it has been made illegal to wear a mask.

Pretty sure that's intentional worrisome. There's a reason that the cops have to buzz out their weapons, and it's not because they're good guys. There's a reason that people want to kill cops, and it's not because they're good guys. 

Seventh Kavalry is a reference to Custer's regiment, hence the 'little big horn' page Sister gets.

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Pretty sure that's intentional worrisome. There's a reason that the cops have to buzz out their weapons, and it's not because they're good guys. There's a reason that people want to kill cops, and it's not because they're good guys. 

Seventh Kavalry is a reference to Custer's regiment, hence the 'little big horn' page Sister gets.

I figured it was that, among some other reasons.  If it was 'cavalry' and not 'Calgary.'  Which, as all the reviewers mixed it up when came to writing about the Seventh, including some of them employing the words with a 'c' -- and not having read the comix and do not intend to (because I want my reactions to be entirely free of any preconception, just what the series itself does; plus I don't like comix generally -- though I did when a kid -- and reading them even if I wanted to is more than problematic due to my vision).

However, surely you understand the writing and shooting of the series took place quite some time prior to this recent rule that the Hong Kong protestors are not allowed to wear masks?

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6 hours ago, Nictarion said:

All of you who keep saying “again, I haven’t read the comics” should really just go ahead and read the comics...

Not that you need to for this series, but because it really is that good. 

I'm sure it is, my problem is I just never make time to sit down and read. It's unfortunate. But it's soooo much easier to watch something than to read something. Plus I can do things that don't require much brainpower while I watch stuff. I have a small pile of books I mean to get to but the only time I read is on the train or when the power goes out.  Frankly my nintendo switch has pretty much usurped both of those roles lately. 

Anyway at this point I'd rather finish this season/series and then read it. 

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Oddly  -- having recently watched Epix's pilot and first episode of Pennyworth, it has resemblances to HBO's Watchmen --when it's supposed to be pre-pre-prequel Batman!  I guess because, comic book?  It's got a clandestine racist anti-government society. It's got blimps. It's got figures in cages hanging over London Bridge as in much earlier centuries of our world, but it plays the Beatles, and the women wear those awful hair spray 1960's hair styles.  And it has people in stocks.  Pennyworth, of course, becomes Alfred of Bruce Wayne fame, but in this alternate (I guess?) 1960's Britain, where the Queen present herself in the official hall in bare shoulders and deep decollage, and pats our Alfred lingeringly after presenting some cross of honor -- Alfred is really James Bond? 

In some ways too it is reminiscent of amazon's Man in the High Castle, at least in surface appearance -- which, I confess I only watched the first season of MITHC. By the second season I lost all interest early on. But Pennyworth didn't begin as a comic book -- other than Batman -- yeeks, Bruce Wayne isn't even born yet.

OTOH, all three of these are so clearly blue / green screen productions, so there is that look (which generally, gotta say, I am more than tired of -- the smoke, the static clouds, and again, the blimps.  TV is really liking blimps this year.

The pilot and first and maybe second? episode of Pennyworth are up without fee on Amazon Prime.

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22 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm sure it is, my problem is I just never make time to sit down and read. It's unfortunate. But it's soooo much easier to watch something than to read something. Plus I can do things that don't require much brainpower while I watch stuff. I have a small pile of books I mean to get to but the only time I read is on the train or when the power goes out.  Frankly my nintendo switch has pretty much usurped both of those roles lately. 

Anyway at this point I'd rather finish this season/series and then read it. 

If you don't have the time to read the comic, I'd recommend just watching Snyder's film.  It being a Zack Snyder film, it has slightly less subtlety than your average porno, but it is pretty much a 1:1 retelling of the comic, just with hyper-stylized action scenes that feel wildly out of place.  The ending is a little different (same idea/outcome, just a different threat), but you can pretty easily read what happened in the comics via that HBO page someone posted on the previous page.

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5 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Yet another "haven't read the comics" person here.  

I've always found Snyder's film enjoyable and totally re-watchable.  I pretty much agree with this review mostly defending it (including the list of the glaring flaws).  

It definitely makes me feel like I'm a bit more equipped going into this show.  

I think it's enjoyable enough.  There are things I hate about it, like that fight scene where Night Owl and Silk Spectre just straight up murder a gang of thugs, snapping limbs, snapping necks, and outright stabbing a dude in the throat.  It's just wildly out of character for both of them, as they were never murderers like Rorschach or Comedian.  But at the end of the day it's a pretty faithful adaptation and has some stuff I really like, such as the opening credits.  

If you've seen the movie recently, I'd say you are largely equipped to follow the series because it was so straight an adaptation.  I just tend to think Snyder was the wrong guy to do it.  He was perfect for 300, because that comic was also hyper-stylized and over-the-top.  He brings that same style to Watchmen and it can be a little jarring.  I've said it in the past, but I'd love to see a David Fincher adaptation of Watchmen that's filmed more like Seven than a comic book movie.  

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