Sandor and Tyrion

[Lifestream]

Just now, Annara Snow said:

You thought I needed to post that quote to prove he was there when Ned was executed?! We know that anyway. It's pretty clear he does regret that and consider that one of his "sins" that he was guilty of in front of Arya. Killing Mycah, letting Sansa be beaten, letting Ned be executed. Why else was he saying that in such a highly emotional and traumatic moment (it was miles away from the show scene where they made him laugh!)?

Because he was in agony? Dude just got burned once more and he's on the ground crying. rya grabs a knife intending to kill him. If anything it looks like once again he is trying to provoke her to kill him, that's why he's referring to the people she knows and cares about.

Quote

She didn't care what Thoros had taught them. She yanked Greenbeard's dagger from its sheath and spun away before he could catch her. Gendry made a grab for her as well, but she had always been too fast for Gendry.

 

Tom Sevenstrings and some woman were helping the Hound to his feet. The sight of his arm shocked her speechless. There was a strip of pink where the leather strap had clung, but above and below the flesh was cracked and red and bleeding from elbow to wrist. When his eyes met hers, his mouth twitched. "You want me dead that bad? Then do it, wolf girl. Shove it in. It's cleaner than fire." Clegane tried to stand, but as he moved a piece of burned flesh sloughed right off his arm, and his knees went out from under him. Tom caught him by his good arm and held him up.

Sandor is in a lot of pain here, is it hard to believe that he wouldn't mind been put out of his misery after what he went through? We know how he feels about mercy and suffering.

Quote

"I did." His whole face twisted. "I rode him down and cut him in half, and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your father's head off."

I could read this as a provocation. He's in a really sorry state. She's still holding the knife at this point.

 

And as for Ned, i really don't know how he feels and it makes no sense to feel regret over his death. He wasn't the one to execute him, he didn't make the decision and he couldn't possibly do anything to save him. Also he was charged with treason. Unless Sandor knew more things and didn't find his execution justifiable, but even if that is true it is never mentioned explicitly from him and there aren't many hints either.

His regret over Sansa's beating isn't explicitly stated either and I don't think Arya catches on to it, for her he's egging her on so she'll put him out of his misery. It's us who can conclude that he feels guilty and immense regret that he allowed (though he couldn't really do much truth be told) Sansa to be beaten by the Kinsguard and we can understand that because of context. first of all their relationship (that Arya has no idea of and misses hints of during her travels with Sandor) and then when he mentions the white cloak which is associated with knighthood, protection etc.

 

So I'm not sure his regrets over Ned's execution(if he's haunted by that) are as intense as his regrets over Sansa;s beating.

[Le Cygne]

More dog stuff, I love how in that scene before the battle, Sansa thinks of petting him! And she's like, I'm afraid (she says that when she really means excited, it takes her a while to own up to that), but I want to pet him, and I wish the other guy had his ferocity!

She doesn't realize he's her dog already. Done deal. He belongs to her. All she has to do is claim him. (Which she is doing in absentia.) He's barking so much all the time, she gets distracted. Then when he's gone she misses "hounds to bark and growl."

(more below)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

8 hours ago, Lifestream said:

I understand it's a big point of debate whether Sandor had other intentions that night or not and I am confused myself. And then there's GRRM who says it may be different for each of them (I think when a fan had asked if the relationship between the two was platonic or romantic) so that really puts me into thought. I can definitely see the romantic context from Sansa and I think that's the point, but it also makes perfect sense to me that Sandor might not be viewing her romantically yet. He does notice that she's becoming a woman, but if he wanted something sexual during that night wouldn't he have touched her inappropriately? I think most characters make those sorts of intentions known in usually that way. Just for me it doesn't play as very sexual in nature.

 

And then there's his confession, which part is regret which part is real and which part is egging on Arya. Are we supposed to not doubt any part of it at all? Are some parts more provocative than others?

Actually, I think it's reversed.  He, being older, his feelings are more advanced from chemistry to attraction; however, he gets that from the serpentine steps scene the comment about the song (as a metaphor) goes right over her head.  He stops and reminds himself that she's "stupid" (as in she's too young and naive) and meant for the king, so he back tracks out of that subject really fast and takes her back to her room.  I think the serpentine marks the first moment of it advancing to physical attraction for him.  I don't subscribe to people being "too damaged to love," but I don't think Sandor would even know what that looks like at that point.  I don't think the depth of his caring for her becomes apparent to him until after he leaves and certainly after he hears the news of her marriage.  As far as his intentions go that night, I do judge by what he didn't do as much as what he actually did.  He entered that scene asking / demanding only a literal song.  Even at knife point.  That's really bad enough, but he's not speaking metaphorically at all.  Not arguing his demand wasn't inappropriate, but it needs to be stressed he was never demanding the metaphoric song / sex.  There is nothing stopping him from doing her physical harm, so why doesn't he?  Rapists aren't put off because the victim closes their eyes.  He doesn't do anything sexual to her at all.  Not even on the serpentine steps and there was nothing stopping him there either.  He doesn't even force her to go with him against her will.  Despite the bad thing he actually did, her consent ultimately does matter to him.  

So how does that square with what he said to Arya?  Well, he definitely is half-goading her to mercy kill him and she's hesitating.  I also keep in mind he's conflating standing there in his white cloak to be on the same level as Mycah's murder.  Objectively, no, they aren't the same level of morally wrong.  One is definitely more bad than the other.  The point is Sandor believes they are and he's the worst piece of shit ever.  THis is a very different take on himself.  Before in his trial by the BwB and against Arya's accusations, he was arguing mitigating circumstances for Mycah's murder:  that he was ordered to do it, which is true and the BwB trial certainly wasn't a fair one.  However, even Sandor knows that just following orders is a weak excuse.  He argues to Arya that he may have done bad things, but he also did good ones like save Sansa during the riot.  True, but the two don't cancel each other out.  Saving Sansa is good, but it doesn't equal justice for Mycah.  At the end, he's not arguing mitigating circumstances anymore.  He's not just fully taking responsibility, but conflating his level of responsibility.  The standard of right and wrong for himself has just raised considerably.  I mean, he calls himself a gutless fraud for misrepresenting when the song occurred, but is that really the worst lie ever?  Seriously no.  Arya doesn't even give a shit about the song.  And was taking a literal song (yes how it happened was bad) truly equivalent to raping her?  Objectively, no.  Sansa certainly doesn't feel that way in her reflection on it.  The point is, Sandor believes he's that bad.  So when he gets to the point of saying he should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf, there's reason enough to take this heavily salted.  The subtext is that he's admitting he wanted her physically and well as wanting her heart.  He wanted her to feel the same way in return, but that couldn't happen for many reasons.  Big shocker after all his brooding through the Riverlands about it.  He does understand that he could not act upon those feelings without doing her harm and he never actually does.  But he's equating the mere existence of his conflicted feelings to being the same as actually doing something terrible to her.  This is a complete 180 turn in his thinking and actually needs to be recalibrated a bit more realistically, but basically he's evolved a lot:

From  nihilistic < jaded idealist < not only saves Sansa but tries to save Lollys Stokeworth too < breaks with serving terrible people < argues that he's done good things as well as bad / mitigating circumstances < sobbing and loathing himself for both things he actually did and didn't do.  His sense of moral culpability is kinda off the charts, but the fact that he is not making any excuses for himself makes it the best example of a redemption arc in the series imo.     

Besides, interpreting what he's saying as "my biggest regret in life Tyrion raping the girl I wanted to rape" makes zero sense.

On Sansa's end, none of this is really on her radar until later.  She's still very much focused on Loras as her fantasy, which is very normal for her age.  She doesn't even get what the song was (from the serpentine steps) until the incident with Marillion.  Her evolution of her feelings is taking it's own pace, which is good.  It's notable that they both realize more is coming to the surface in each other's absence.

I'll respond to more later, when I get home from work.     

[Le Cygne]

This got kind of long, I will shorten it up. Some thoughts...

Sandor never gave up his dreams, he just hid them well under a mask in order to cope with a world that turned his dreams upside down. (And I bet he returns the favor to Sansa one day, reminds her of her dreams.)

Beauty and the Beast is a story of sexual awakening. And so it goes with Sansa and the Hound, all these feelings between them simmering beneath the surface. Sansa is responding to Sandor on a deep level.

And from the start, the rose yields to the Beast. "The day is yours," Loras tells Sandor. Sansa constantly brushes aside Loras for her deeper feelings for Sandor. She bypasses his flowery butt all the time.

Sandor was there when Sansa was flowering, catching her before she falls. Ditto for the rescue, he rescues her with a blur of steel, and in her dream it's a glimmer of steel that brings on her flowering.

And she keeps remembering that night Sandor came to her. Since then, she's thought of him so often, awake at night in bed, she doesn't even have to name him when she dreams of him in bed, or kissing her.

As for Tyrion, I think he was setting up the scene where Sandor finds out what happened to Sansa at the Inn. Tyrion wasted Sandor the night of Blackwater, sending him out in the fire, and it's because of that he had to leave.

I put lots more Beauty and the Beast here by the way...

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

On 7/1/2017 at 10:02 AM, Le Cygne said:

Sandor never gave up his dreams, he just hid them well under a mask in order to cope with a world that turned his dreams upside down. (And I bet he returns the favor to Sansa one day, reminds her of her dreams.)

Well honestly, if he wasn't full 100% nihilist, he was nearing that prior to the relationship between himself and Sansa.  He fully admits he killed Mycah and laughed about it.  Sandor was heading down a path of fully becoming as bad as Rorge, who wears the Hound's helm and is definitely a warning of how bad Sandor could have become.  It was not a matter of if but when he became that bad, giving himself over to not just outright murder and even rape as well.  That's the point.  He was in danger of becoming like Rorge and the Mountain if he continued down that line of thinking for much longer.  Sansa made her impact on him at a critical moment in his life where he truly could have become a butcher that values nothing or no one.  That's actually a good thing that we get to see this because it makes her influence as potent as it could possibly be.  She pulled the last remains of that hidden little idealistic boy out of him before the Hound persona crushed him for good.  So I stand by that he was in practice a nihilist heading toward embracing it fully before Sansa's intervention.

You know me already where I stand with your BatB analysis   I just feel that Sansa's feelings are definitely less advanced than his for a while longer.  That's very normal and to be expected.  Her infatuation with Loras is a very normal part of a girl growing up and figuring out what she wants.  It's good for a young girl to have a non-threatening, unavailable male to fantasize over.  It's safe and under her control, where as her subconscious desires are a little more womanly and she's not ready to deal with that yet.  But slowly that comes to the surface and she reshapes how things went down as she prefers it.  So I do agree, at the tourney between Loras and the Hound:  Loras gives it up to the Hound, there's no contest between them.

 

[Le Cygne]

Nope, that's not what the helm is about, that was a further injustice to him. And that's not trusting Sansa very much, because he's the anti-rapist in her story. She never once thinks that about him, and indeed thinks of him for comfort. And the Saint Sansa Saves Sandor thing, that's not the story, either. She's got her issues, boy, does she have her issues. They help each other, that's the story.

Sandor is the one she's thinking about awake in bed at night, the one she dreams of naked in her bed, the one who gets the "real" kiss. She thinks about that night they were together over and over. And the ONLY thing she changed is that he kissed her. Sure seems like she's more than ready and the only thing she changes is she wants those cruel lips pressing to her own when he yanks her to him.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

(added the quote)

[Karmarni]

Sandor is not a nihilist. I see him as a cynic. Nihilism goes too far for what I perceive as his ideology. Though I think he'd never think that way, as having an "ideology.' Cynic is a better fit. He was 'burned' by life, and his initial idealism is now tinged by that experience. His view of knights and so-called honorable men fits with that. He's not all out saying life is meaningless, and he acts in complete opposite of that, in fact.

As for becoming Rorge, no. That's not an accurate reading of the text, in my opinion. Rorge is and was bad from the beginning of the story. It was only a matter of time before we saw what he was capable of. But applying a one-dimensional character's personality/events to another character, one who has more of a role in the story, is looking at it through a narrow lens. Sandor was not a rapist. He did not in any part of the story show that he intended to rape anyone, especially Sansa. I see posts that say this and I think they apply too much emphasis to what Sandor says to Arya. As if what he says there is the gods-honest truth and he is not full of regret, woe, and attempting to piss Arya off. That's what's important to me. Sandor's regret in regards to Sansa. What he says, and how he says it, has always be shaded with a dangerous element. Sandor lives a dangerous life, amidst Lannisters who have great regard for his brother, while he has none. He has learned to say the right thing, obviously. 

So to apply Sandor's words to his previous actions is a mistake. The actions themselves should be parsed by the words that are used at the time. And Sansa would know, she's the one who's telling us. And she believes he meant to kiss her. That he is dangerous is a given. But he has not shown himself by his actions to be dangerous to her. He has shown himself to be protective, to adore her. So when she says "please don't kill me", it's because this is a dangerous man that she has tried to understand, and failed, at some points in the story, to fully comprehend. It is later, lying awake in bed, thinking of him, that she understands. She understands his intent to take her with him, she understands his fear of fire and what he must have faced on the battlefield that night. She understands his well-disguised fear of his brother too. 

Of course, the outcome of all this is that Sansa has decided that Sandor did, indeed, kiss her that night. It is how she chooses to summarize the events in her head. That she wished she had gone with him, that she had kissed him, is what is being insinuated.

I agree with @Le Cygne, overplaying Loras in Sansa's story is again looking at it with a narrow lens from the narrow end. That's out of proportion. Loras is the 'knightly' knight, the pretty boy (who isn't knightly or pretty anymore, or so says the story), but Sandor is the one she gives the 'kiss' to. He's the one she wishes for. Overplaying Loras results in failing to see the glamour, yes, glamour, that is Sandor Clegane's love for Sansa Stark. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

56 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Nope, that's not what the helm is about, that was a further injustice to him. And that's not trusting Sansa very much, because he's the anti-rapist in her story. She never once thinks that about him, and indeed thinks of him for comfort. And the Saint Sansa Saves Sandor thing, that's not the story, either. She's got her issues, boy, does she have her issues. They help each other, that's the story.

 

No need to get fired up.  You know how much I love Sandor as a character.  Yes, I agree that ELder Brother really messed up and Rorge getting the helm caused a huge injustice.  Both Sandor and Sansa are paralleling each other as people accused of crimes they didn't commit.  Maybe I wasn't explaining it well enough.  The Hound's helm does represent the worst aspects of the Hound.  The "mad dog" that bites the hand that tries to pet him -- lashing out and hurting people that are not his enemy.  Rorge is symbolically what the Hound could have been had he continued down a violent path and fully embracing the butcher.  Rorge is very strong, brutish, and black-haired.  He has a missing nose, which is like Sandor being cut off from his inner voice.  So they both have disfigured faces.  According to George, Rorge staged dog and bear fighting pits in his backstory.  This is obviously not the first time George has written a character to have an "evil twin" that exaggerates the character's worst traits (Ramsay Snow to Jon Snow for example) to show what could have been, an alternate path. That's why the Hound dying and Sandor being at rest is so powerful. While he did do shitting things, he didn't go fully Rorge.  That's what the broken man speech is about.  Traumatized men losing their humanity and turning violent.  Once you start stealing food, it's only a matter of time before you're fully living like an animal just taking whatever you want, that can lead to murder and rape.  That's exactly what Rorge is doing wearing the HOund's helm.  He's the alternate path that could have happened had Sandor not chose to change his course.  And Sansa is just a catalyst that gets him really thinking about how he wants to see himself and how he wants to live his life.  He is also influenced by Arya as well and ultimately I think the Elder Brother is the tailor-made character to really help him reclaim Sandor Clegane divorced from the Hound.    

I will defend to my dying breath that I don't believe Sandor was ever going to rape Sansa and I do agree, he's the one who saves her from that threat.  Sansa was just thinking before entering her room the night of the Blackwater that the Hound wouldn't let harm come to her.  She finds him in her room and he says he won't let anyone hurt her again.  Then what does he do?  He starts acting really scary and holds a knife to her throat.  Even though he didn't physically harm her, scaring her and threatening her is still a very bad thing that would destroy her faith that he wouldn't ever hurt her.  Once he snapped out of it and saw what he was doing, he felt utterly ashamed.  He's drinking himself to death practically when we see him next in Arya's POV, so I think yes, he must have been thinking that he could have hurt someone he didn't want to hurt.  His anger and PTSD issues could lead him to doing something he'd regret.  He promised to protect her from other people, but he was hit with the realization that in that moment she needed protection from him.  Again, I think this is actually a good thing that he is facing things about himself.  It makes me confident that he will be very successful in his redemption arc because he's doing the hard work himself to change, even if he's influenced by other people.         

Please don't think that just because I am discussing Sandor's issues bluntly that I am ignoring Sansa's.  I am very aware of her negative traits as well, but that wasn't the discussion at that moment.  I'm not attacking him.  I'm appreciating where he's been and how far he's come.  For a non-POV he displays an enormous amount of character growth.  I do agree with you that Sansa is becoming more cynical and I do think a renewed Sandor is one that will actually help pull her back toward a renewed idealism.  Both of them start with extreme points of view and they pull each other back toward center.                

[Le Cygne]

1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

Sandor is not a nihilist. I see him as a cynic. Nihilism goes too far for what I perceive as his ideology. Though I think he'd never think that way, as having an "ideology.' Cynic is a better fit. He was 'burned' by life, and his initial idealism is now tinged by that experience. His view of knights and so-called honorable men fits with that. He's not all out saying life is meaningless, and he acts in complete opposite of that, in fact.

As for becoming Rorge, no. That's not an accurate reading of the text, in my opinion. Rorge is and was bad from the beginning of the story. It was only a matter of time before we saw what he was capable of. But applying a one-dimensional character's personality/events to another character, one who has more of a role in the story, is looking at it through a narrow lens. Sandor was not a rapist. He did not in any part of the story show that he intended to rape anyone, especially Sansa. I see posts that say this and I think they apply too much emphasis to what Sandor says to Arya. As if what he says there is the gods-honest truth and he is not full of regret, woe, and attempting to piss Arya off. That's what's important to me. Sandor's regret in regards to Sansa. What he says, and how he says it, has always be shaded with a dangerous element. Sandor lives a dangerous life, amidst Lannisters who have great regard for his brother, while he has none. He has learned to say the right thing, obviously. 

So to apply Sandor's words to his previous actions is a mistake. The actions themselves should be parsed by the words that are used at the time. And Sansa would know, she's the one who's telling us. And she believes he meant to kiss her. That he is dangerous is a given. But he has not shown himself by his actions to be dangerous to her. He has shown himself to be protective, to adore her. So when she says "please don't kill me", it's because this is a dangerous man that she has tried to understand, and failed, at some points in the story, to fully comprehend. It is later, lying awake in bed, thinking of him, that she understands. She understands his intent to take her with him, she understands his fear of fire and what he must have faced on the battlefield that night. She understands his well-disguised fear of his brother too. 

Of course, the outcome of all this is that Sansa has decided that Sandor did, indeed, kiss her that night. It is how she chooses to summarize the events in her head. That she wished she had gone with him, that she had kissed him, is what is being insinuated.

I agree with @Le Cygne, overplaying Loras in Sansa's story is again looking at it with a narrow lens from the narrow end. That's out of proportion. Loras is the 'knightly' knight, the pretty boy (who isn't knightly or pretty anymore, or so says the story), but Sandor is the one she gives the 'kiss' to. He's the one she wishes for. Overplaying Loras results in failing to see the glamour, yes, glamour, that is Sandor Clegane's love for Sansa Stark. 

Amen to all of this.

The Saint Sansa Saves Sinner Sandor thing is so droll, and Sansa would be the first to totally disagree with that take. And nope to the Rorge and Loras thing, that's the opposite, as you say.

She tells you exactly how she sees it below, and he spells out what he regrets. It's that he let them beat her, and that he left her, and that she didn't give the song. He wishes she cared for him.

LITTLE DOES HE KNOW... she does. And she remembers that he protected her over and over again. And she regrets that he left her, too. They are on the same page, but he needs to know about that kiss.

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

25 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

Sandor is not a nihilist. I see him as a cynic. Nihilism goes too far for what I perceive as his ideology. Though I think he'd never think that way, as having an "ideology.' Cynic is a better fit. He was 'burned' by life, and his initial idealism is now tinged by that experience. His view of knights and so-called honorable men fits with that. He's not all out saying life is meaningless, and he acts in complete opposite of that, in fact.

Quote

"Aren't you afraid? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you've done."
"What evil?" He laughed. "What gods?"

"The gods who made us all."

"All?" he mocked. "Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda's daughter? If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with."

I 100% agree that the Hound's actions don't match up with what he says.  We, the readers, can see that most of this is posturing.  If he truly believed what he said deep down he would not have saved Sansa or even tried to save Lollys Stokeworth.  But what does Sandor believe about himself?  His statements seem to indicate he believes he is the butcher he talks about, there are no gods, and that human life doesn't matter because the world is shit anyway.  There's a whole lot of defense mechanism going on underneath, but in his conscious mind he wants to believe that he is this monster because it's safer than being a victim.  He doesn't ever want to feel vulnerable again.  He confesses himself he laughed about killing Mycah, a defenseless little kid.  In Ned's POV when he brings back Mycah's body, he makes a pretty callous remark that the boy didn't run very fast.   At that moment his life didn't mean anything to him, so that supports the idea that before Sansa he was on a dark path toward totally embracing nihilism, not just being cynical.  I think be starts to move more toward cynicism in his discussions with Sansa, as he's trying to pull her back from extreme naivete.  Both points of view need adjusting.

50 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

I agree with @Le Cygne, overplaying Loras in Sansa's story is again looking at it with a narrow lens from the narrow end. That's out of proportion. Loras is the 'knightly' knight, the pretty boy (who isn't knightly or pretty anymore, or so says the story), but Sandor is the one she gives the 'kiss' to. He's the one she wishes for. Overplaying Loras results in failing to see the glamour, yes, glamour, that is Sandor Clegane's

Guys, seriously. I am rooting for Sansan endgame and I do believe that there's plenty of evidence to support it. She's 11 fucking years old when the story starts.  It's totally normal for a girl her age to have chaste daydreams about Joffrey then progress to a crush on a non-threatening unavailable young guy like Loras.  He's Justin Beiber.  She consciously fantasizes about kissing Loras.  It's experimentally dipping her toe into erotic fantasy in a safe way she can control.  She even tried conversing with Loras to get closer to him, but that obviously failed.  Do I think Sandor is lurking in her subconscious and that's revealing itself throughout her story? YES!  OMG YES!  But she's still very, very young and is just starting to become a woman.  Sandor is a grown man.  Remember in AGOT she thinks of people older than their teens as "old."  A grown man as an erotic subject is just too much for her at this point.  She needs to come to it at her own pace.  Loras is the bridge between childhood chaste ideas and adult woman fantasies.  This is all so normal and a realistic depiction of a young woman maturing. Sandor is not just a grown man, but he's a very intense guy.  She needs time to grow up, mature, and figure out what she wants out of this.  I think she is slowly overtime accepting that it isn't the Loras ideal that she wants.  She's letting go of that, but it was a necessary part of the process.  She has to come to accept this part of herself too.  I think it scares Miss Priss what desiring Sandor says about her more than anything.  He upends everything she thought she wanted.  The fairytale wasn't like this.  None of this takes anything away from what I believe her feelings will be toward Sandor.  It would be weirder if she went from zero to being in love with him.  It's so much more interesting to see the process unfold in baby steps and that it wasn't easy.

For the record, I love love love problematic fucked up characters with issues.  I'm so happy these two people are so flawed because that makes a story!  I want to see how they work through this.  That's a more realistic depiction of a solid relationship than an idealized love story.  It's got elements of romanticism, but the meat of the story is grounded in a realistic push and pull between two people.  They continue to influence each other throughout their separation over two books.  That gives me confidence George is making them endgame and he intends a mature relationship between them.  

    

 

  

[Le Cygne]

Reading is about the journey of the characters.

It's not up to the reader to decide all of this. The reader just goes along for the ride.

No, a nihilist doesn't say sing me a song little bird. No, there's nothing there with Rorge, that's a plot device. No, there's nothing there with Loras, that's a plot device, too.

Sansa has grown up and this is Westeros. She was nearly 13 the night of Blackwater and she's older now, and according to author/character she is a woman.

The ONLY thing she changed about that night is that he kissed her. She likes this, this is what appeals to her. The superficial stuff with a pretty boy never got this response.

This is George R.R. Martin writing the story, and he is not writing some family sitcom.

Sansa is not running through an exaggerated list of Sandor's flaws, Sansa is seeing the good in him. She shows compassion and understanding for his suffering.

He was horribly burned as a child. And that will never go away. No one is going to wave a magic wand and make him into a perfect person. The only thing to help is LOVE.

Sandor comes to Sansa from a ship called Prayer after she prays to keep him safe, and he wants to keep her safe. This is deep stuff here. They have formed a bond.

Sandor was falsely accused of things he would never do. That's injustice. And multiple characters say Sandor would never do these things, from Sansa to the Elder Brother.

All of this matters, a lot.

(Sansa and Sandor, now those are meaningful parallels. Love dogs, songs, and each other. And stolen kisses. Defend each other. Miss each other. And lots more. A story.)

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

How can I overplay Loras?

1. He's gay.
2. Nothing is going to come of any of her childish fantasizing because he's gay and a kingsguard.
3. He's also gay.

Why is acknowledging Sansa has a preteen crush on a pretty boy so bad?   It's not like Loras is a terrible person like Joffrey, so who cares if he's conventionally good looking?  Lots of girls her age have this type of crush on that type of guy.  They grow up and have very different desires when they are ready.  Why would that take away from her more mature feelings about Sandor as she grows up? Girls are allowed to have more than one infatuation or experiment in their fantasies -- even about two different guys at the same time!     It's not that Loras is actual competition with Sandor, he isn't.  This is all in her head and aside from the fact that he's gay.  But she does learn a valuable lesson in her interaction with Loras.  She tries to use intimacy to make a personal connection with Loras and ends up shutting him down.  She brings up Renly and ends up putting Loras off and he gives her the detached courtesy treatment she gave Sandor.  From this she learns:

1. You can't manufacture chemistry or intimacy.  Either you have it or you don't.  
2.  He's just not into her.  She experiences rejection.  Later in Alayne II, AFFC she will initially try to think of kissing Loras, but she has an epiphany that no Tyrell would ever consider kissing a bastard girl.  Accepting this fact kills the fantasy for her.  She abandons it.  THEN thinks of the other kiss from someone who did care about her for herself.  
3. The cool, detached mask of courtesy sucks when you are on the receiving end.  It's not just being polite.  It's the antithesis of real human connection.    

Good lessons learned as part of her character development.  She's learning more realistic ideas about what it means to love and be loved in a genuine way.  True chemistry and intimacy with someone is rare.  She can't "make" someone love her.  All her life she's been training to be the perfect lady to be please her betrothed -- that she must earn love and approval through performing traditional femininity perfectly.  Singing and needlework are a performance, not a personality.  You can't be loved for yourself that way.  Even when she thinks she might be marrying Willas, she thinks she must look pretty for him to even consider she's worth loving or at least getting to know better.  That's ass backward thinking right there.  Does this girl even know who she is beyond the superficial?   That's the other side of the coin to seeing other people superficially, she sees her own value that way too.  And bottom line, high born marriages in Westeros will always be based on political and economic alliances.  That her parents ended up genuinely loving each other was a rarity and probably why she had such naive sheltered beliefs about finding love within the system.  Sandor doesn't give a crap about her claim. In fact her higher social status is the biggest obstacle between them.  But he cares anyway even though he has nothing to gain from this and probably everything to lose.  He pushes her so much (even going a bit too far at times) is because he's trying to break through that wall and get at the real Sansa.  He doesn't want the perfect lady performance, he wants the caring person who reacted with compassion to his secret.  That moment was genuine and made her worth caring about.  So I don't understand why there is a need to invalidate the crush on Loras as this terrible thing that somehow threatens her feelings for Sandor.  If anything the failure of pursuing that crush makes her appreciate Sandor more by comparison.

If you wanna bring up the first incarnation of the unkiss when she's with the Tyrell ladies, she does have an erotic fantasy about Loras there too.  She thinks of kissing him and she is the sole actor in that fantasy.  This is important.  She views herself as being an active and equal participant in love.  She doesn't want to just lie there and take it.  In fact, with the unkiss she says initially that she kissed the Hound first before pivoting to him kissing her.  So the unkiss, according to her mis-memory, would be her first real adult erotic kiss.  It was then done impulsively before she was really prepared for it in an unfortunate situation.  If we take what we can glean from her Loras fantasy, part of Sansa's frustration with the unkiss is that she didn't have an opportunity to be an equal participant.  He kissed her and left.  She's clearly not opposed to the kiss because it's her invention, but she does want to be able to have a say in when, how and where.  George put those two fantasies up side by side in the same chapter for a reason.  It's not just about who Sansa wants but also how she sees herself in all this, independent of what men want from her including the man she desires.  IMO, if/when Sandor and Sansa re-unite she will put the moves on him.

And seriously, you know I did not say anything to the effect of "Saint Sansa Saves the Sinner Sandor."  That really wasn't fair.  I certainly do not consider her a saint.  I consider her very flawed.  She can be very class-conscious, superficial, prejudiced, frustratingly naive, willfully blind, unkind and unsupportive to her sister when it really mattered, rigid, aloof, and unappreciative.  But she's learning.

And Rorge:

• Heavily built and black-haired
• Disfigured face / missing nose vs missing ear.  Sandor uses smell as a metaphor for intuition or listening to your inner voice to find truth.  Rorge is missing his nose, he has no conscience, no moral compass.  What is Sandor missing?  His ear. Sandor does have a conscience but he didn't always listen to it.
• Has his own violent mad "dog" Biter.  George in an interview said Rorge raised Biter in to fight dogs and bears in pits.  Sansa likens Sandor to a mean dog that bites the hand that tries to pet him.
• Claims the Hound's helm for himself and commits terrible crimes
• Sandor gets blamed for his actions and people believe it because of the Hound's reputation.  Remember Sandor bragged about his reputation of being a butcher of men, women, and children, whether it was exaggerated or not. That reputation was perpetuated by Sandor himself long before Rorge came along.  It is an injustice to be falsely accused, but it is partly karmic.  Sandor cannot show his face off the QI lest he be executed on the spot.  He must do his penance for his actual bad deeds in order to be renewed.
• We don't know for a fact that Rorge was "always bad."  We have a very limited backstory of his adult life.  We only know him when we meet him in Arya's arc.   I'm sure a lot of people in Westeros assume Sandor was "always bad" for being a Clegane.  We only know differently because we know more about his backstory.
• Thoros of Myr's thoughts when Lem Lemoncloak takes up the Hound's helm:

  Quote

  The big man scowled at him. "It's good steel."
  "There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it," said the red priest. "Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin."
  "I'm not them."

  "Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted . . . is that who you would be, Lem?"

  Oh no, clearly George doesn't want us to make any comparisons.  Nothing to see here.  Move along.   Honestly,  I wasn't saying the Hound is the same as Rorge.  George is simply presenting us with a character that is the most exaggerated form the Hound could take if he made different choices.  It's a warning of an alternate life he could have had.  He chose differently (thank the Seven).  In order for Sandor's redemption to be as powerful as it is, we have to see how bad it could have gotten.  Sansa is only a catalyst, but it isn't for a 12 year old girl to fix him.  That would be grossly unconscionable of George to write it that way.  Arya is the one who makes him face honestly his bad acts.  Elder Brother, a war veteran who has done terrible things, is the one George wrote to give him therapy and heal his wounds.              

 

[Karmarni]

I DO think Rorge was "always bad". By that I mean from the beginning of the story. Backstory only counts for me when given within the actual story, the author's words as written. So Rorge is 'bad' from the get-go.

My statement about overplay - really, it's meant to address the tendency to bring psychoanalysis, affective and behavioral science to literature. And GRRM is not James Joyce, he's a fantasy novel writer. Simple, close reading is all that's required to understand the story. So Loras is the Knight of Flowers, the pretty knight who cheats in the tourney. He's duplicitous; he's hiding his relationship with Renley. Sansa likes him in AGOT, and yet he's not who he seems to be. She's learns that he's "not into her." 

And as for the topic, I think the relationship between Tyrion and Sandor has changed from one of mutual sarcastic ribbing, based on their respective positions in society in general and in their place within the Lannister's circle in particular, to one of pure hatred on Sandor's side, based on Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.

[Karmarni]

10 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

And Rorge:

• Heavily built and black-haired
• Disfigured face / missing nose vs missing ear.  Sandor uses smell as a metaphor for intuition or listening to your inner voice to find truth.  Rorge is missing his nose, he has no conscience, no moral compass.  What is Sandor missing?  His ear. Sandor does have a conscience but he didn't always listen to it.
• Has his own violent mad "dog" Biter.  George in an interview said Rorge raised Biter in to fight dogs and bears in pits.  Sansa likens Sandor to a mean dog that bites the hand that tries to pet him.
• Claims the Hound's helm for himself and commits terrible crimes
• Sandor gets blamed for his actions and people believe it because of the Hound's reputation.  Remember Sandor bragged about his reputation of being a butcher of men, women, and children, whether it was exaggerated or not. That reputation was perpetuated by Sandor himself long before Rorge came along.  It is an injustice to be falsely accused, but it is partly karmic.  Sandor cannot show his face off the QI lest he be executed on the spot.  He must do his penance for his actual bad deeds in order to be renewed.
• We don't know for a fact that Rorge was "always bad."  We have a very limited backstory of his adult life.  We only know him when we meet him in Arya's arc.   I'm sure a lot of people in Westeros assume Sandor was "always bad" for being a Clegane.  We only know differently because we know more about his backstory.
• Thoros of Myr's thoughts when Lem Lemoncloak takes up the Hound's helm:

That's a pretty extreme 'parallel' that you're drawing there, don't you think? Sandor would be Rorge if not for the Elder Brother 's therapy? Basing this on Sandor's own helm being stolen and hair color and disfigured face and reference to dogs? Does that have anything at all to do with Sandor's character that we've learned of throughout the story? 

I don't buy it. Sandor Clegane was never going to be the mass rapist that Rorge was. The stolen helm, Rorge's raping at Saltpans, this is all a plot mechanism for GRRM. It's not meant to say that since Sandor Clegane called himself a butcher, Septon Maribald said broken men turn bad, add Thoros' thoughts on the helm, stir, bake for an hour and Sandor is on his way to going full mad dog --- no, that's his brother. 

For saying that Sandor Clegane is a favorite character, well, that's a pretty harsh way of showing it.

[LongRider]

Rorge is mostly a generic bad guy of the nasty type that GRRM put in the RL's.   His wearing of the helmet isn't to show us what the Hound could have been, but what type of trouble he may find for himself when he leaves the QI.  

Many in the RL are convinced that the Hound lead the rape and burning of the Saltpans thanks to Rorge wearing the dog helmet.  

So Sandor will have quite a dilemma to face when he starts his comeback. That's how I read it anyway. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Rorge is mostly a generic bad guy of the nasty type that GRRM put in the RL's.   His wearing of the helmet isn't to show us what the Hound could have been, but what type of trouble he may find for himself when he leaves the QI.  

Many in the RL are convinced that the Hound lead the rape and burning of the Saltpans thanks to Rorge wearing the dog helmet.  

So Sandor will have quite a dilemma to face when he starts his comeback. That's how I read it anyway. 

This is how I saw it too. We've seen how reputations can be easily shattered in this universe, often unjustly, and what Rorge is doing now is going to affect Sandor when he (presumably) leaves the Quiet Isle. 

[Lifestream]

On 2/7/2017 at 9:26 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Well honestly, if he wasn't full 100% nihilist, he was nearing that prior to the relationship between himself and Sansa.  He fully admits he killed Mycah and laughed about it.  Sandor was heading down a path of fully becoming as bad as Rorge, who wears the Hound's helm and is definitely a warning of how bad Sandor could have become.  It was not a matter of if but when he became that bad, giving himself over to not just outright murder and even rape as well.  That's the point.  He was in danger of becoming like Rorge and the Mountain if he continued down that line of thinking for much longer.  Sansa made her impact on him at a critical moment in his life where he truly could have become a butcher that values nothing or no one.  That's actually a good thing that we get to see this because it makes her influence as potent as it could possibly be.  She pulled the last remains of that hidden little idealistic boy out of him before the Hound persona crushed him for good.  So I stand by that he was in practice a nihilist heading toward embracing it fully before Sansa's intervention.

You know me already where I stand with your BatB analysis   I just feel that Sansa's feelings are definitely less advanced than his for a while longer.  That's very normal and to be expected.  Her infatuation with Loras is a very normal part of a girl growing up and figuring out what she wants.  It's good for a young girl to have a non-threatening, unavailable male to fantasize over.  It's safe and under her control, where as her subconscious desires are a little more womanly and she's not ready to deal with that yet.  But slowly that comes to the surface and she reshapes how things went down as she prefers it.  So I do agree, at the tourney between Loras and the Hound:  Loras gives it up to the Hound, there's no contest between them.

 

I disagree with your point. At the beginning of the story, AGOT, Sandor is what...27? 28? And he has been fighting probably since 12-14 as far as I can tell. I don't think he'd get worse. If anything, at this point in his life (after Eddard is caught), Sandor enjoys more privileges than ever before. he's Kingsguard, hasn't taken any vows, he has more status. That's fairly good for someone like Sandor who has nothing else. Does that mean he's genuinely happy? Of course not but I don't think Sandor was on the verge of turning into his brother. No fucking way. At worst he'll be self destructive, the way he is when traveling with Arya after the Red Wedding and drinking all the time.

But Mycah is a nobody. he's there for a lot of things. he's there to establish Arya's and Sandor's relationship. But he's also there to show us how bad people like Mycah have it. I don't understand why people focus only on Sandor. Sandor did the deed, but behind Mycah's death are many people and they're all of noble birth. From Cersei to Joffrey and even Sansa.

As Sandor later tells Sansa, he's had to kill children too. So why should Mycah have significance for him? He doesn't, but Mycah is the reason for the hostile relationship between Arya and the Hound. Sure, later on Mycah acquires a more symbolic meaning in regards to the Hound, but he represents the rest of his atrocities and how he might feel about them.

As for laughing, I don't think the Sandor is laughing out of evilness. It's pretty obvious that it's a defense mechanism for him, but I think given the choice he'd never have killed Mycah. Heck, even when fighting the Mountain not once does he point any lethal blows at him as Ned points out. Why? Well one could say that his encounter with Sansa last night touched and made him more heroic. While that may not be a factor, i think the biggest reason is Sandor's own moral code or what you want to call it. When they were fighting Gregor wasn't wearing his helmet. And that's consistent with Sandor it seems, cause in ASOS Thoros of Myr tells us that Sandor would never never attack them in their sleep.

Thoros seems to be familiar with Sandor from their times at melees, that was before Sandor ever met Sansa. So it seems even before he met Sansa, Sandor had his own set of boundaries. He does have obvious issues of course, but I don't think Sandor was on the verge of becoming someone like Gregor(or Rorge, who let's be honest is on par with gregor). And his instance of losing it is when he goes to Sansa's room on the night of the BotB where he's lost everything and he really has nowhere to go.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

41 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

I DO think Rorge was "always bad". By that I mean from the beginning of the story. Backstory only counts for me when given within the actual story, the author's words as written. So Rorge is 'bad' from the get-go.

Okay, whatever.  If there's an absence of information, I feel it's more accurate to say we just can't state anything as a fact because we just don't know.  What we do know is the current Rorge on page is a really bad guy and has no remorse.  

5 minutes ago, Karmarni said:

That's a pretty extreme 'parallel' that you're drawing there, don't you think? Sandor would be Rorge if not for the Elder Brother 's therapy? Basing this on Sandor's own helm being stolen and hair color and disfigured face and reference to dogs? Does that have anything at all to do with Sandor's character that we've learned of throughout the story? 

No I think it's exactly what George wants us to see because he wrote it that way.  If he didn't want us to make any comparisons he could have written Rorge completely different and had no references to Sandor whatsoever.  You don't write so many deliberate similarities between two character solely for the purpose of creating a random bad guy.  That's not how writing works.  These are deliberate choices the author made for a reason.  I really really don't know how to make this any clearer because I've already said this a few times in various ways:

Sandor is capable of being redeemed because, UNLIKE RORGE, he still has a conscience.  He IS capable of self-reflection and remorse.  He IS capable of making a morally good choice.  Did he always make good choices and listen to his conscience? No, he did not.  By his own admission he did bad things against defenseless people in the past, which HE KNOWS goes against the knightly virtue of protecting the weak.  Do I think he sometimes exaggerates how terrible he is? YES.  Do I think he's lying about most of the bad things he's done?  NO.   At the beginning of the story, George wrote him callously and remorselessly killing the butcher's boy on page.  That is a fact.  In AGOT, Sandor expresses no remorse at killing Mycah; HOWEVER, when he begins to reflect upon himself, the person he wants to be, questioning his service to awful people, he starts making morally good choices.  He starts to protect the weak and defenseless.  He is still posturing about being a terrible guy, but his actions are showing he is making choices to be a better person and truer knight.  That's what it's all about:  CHOICES.  This self-reflection didn't start out of nowhere.  He started self-reflecting and moving back toward his childhood idealism when Sansa challenges him on his worldview (and him with her's).  So when we get to his arc with Arya, he is also showing he is capable of taking responsibility for his past actions and by his dying confession he makes no excuses for himself anymore.  That's Arya's influence in holding him accountable.  He's fully taken ownership of his life and his CHOICES, good and bad, like a mature adult.  Now he can move forward to the next phase of being counselled by the Elder Brother who like Sandor:  is a war veteran, who did bad things (including rape), and drowned his pain in alcohol.  The QI and EB did not exist in the story before.  They were written in just for Sandor to make his recovery and renewal.  It should not be lost on us the significance of an OLDER BROTHER / FORMER KNIGHT as part of Sandor's recovery since the source of Sandor's pain is his actual older brother who is a knight.  It should also no be lost on us that Sandor's penance involves:  digging graves for the innocent people slaughtered at the Saltpans.  He must look upon those dead faces of "weak" people that he once mocked.  He must also keep silent and humbly serve food to the brothers, men of faith,  He previously mocked the gods and faith.  So no, Sandor wasn't just making this redemption process work all by himself.  He wasn't "just" a jaded idealist who just decided one day on his own to start being a decent guy.  He had people along the way helping him, but he did the HARD WORK and made the CHOICE himself to change.  

How does this bring us back to Rorge?  And I swear I don't know how I can state this more clearly:  Rorge is what COULD HAVE BEEN had Sandor CHOSEN A DIFFERENT PATH.  He's an alternate path "Sandor" where Sandor continued not to listen to his conscience and continues to make bad moral choices.  George is NOT saying with Rorge that Sandor is a rapist (nor am I), but he is a child killer.  That is a fact.  We saw it on page.  Sandor has admitted to killing women in the past.  How can I say then for a fact at some point in the future IF HE CHOSE TO CONTINUE ON A VIOLENT PATH that he wouldn't turn his violence against women to rape?  Rape is not sexual, it's about dominance and power.  In Sandor's effort to distance himself from vulnerability, he distances himself from empathy to defenseless, vulnerable people.  As more time goes by, the less and less he sees women as being human beings and more like lambs to the slaughter, rape becomes not such a big stretch anymore.  Being the Hound makes him feel powerful and brave.  Elder Brother admits he raped women in his very troubled previous life to his shame and it was born out of his broken man state.  Sandor is NOT at that point... yet.  Sansa's consent clearly does matter to him or he would have taken her against her will.  Thank the gods for that.  But he is in danger of become a broken man fully.  At a certain point if you do enough bad things, no one cares about why you're doing it.  It doesn't matter then if Rorge was always bad or not, he's gone off the deep end.  Sandor is given the choice between two paths:  the easier road to just embracing being bad and not giving a shit about anything anymore OR doing the hard work path to changing his life for the better.  He chooses the latter.     Good decision, Sandor!  

George is saying if you keep going down this pre-AGOT path Sandor, treating the human life like a joke YOU WILL SOMEDAY BECOME just like your brother and you don't want that.  You don't get to ride on "just following orders" or blaming the system for your issues FOREVER.  You are an adult man that must and will be accountable for your own CHOICES.  People believe Rorge is the Hound not just because of the helm, but because of the reputation for violence (even if he exaggerated the truth) that Sandor perpetuated himself.  He made this contribution to his own false accusation, which makes his penance for burying the dead of the Saltpans all the more potent.  I'm so sorry you don't see this comparison.  I'm sorry you don't like it.  Your issue is with the author then because he wrote Rorge as the purely bad version of Sandor, not Gregor who needs no such parallel.

Let's not forget it was Brienne, the true knight / non-knight, who also shares positive traits with Sandor, is the one who killed Rorge.  What was Brienne doing when she killed Rorge? Defending the orphans, the weak and defenseless.  She was  was outnumbered, probably going to die, but she fights anyway and upholds a true knight's vow to protect the weak.  Metaphorically, Sandor can and will embrace the true knight and that slays the possibility of becoming Rorge.  

1 hour ago, Karmarni said:

For saying that Sandor Clegane is a favorite character, well, that's a pretty harsh way of showing it.

Why do I have to be an apologist or ignore / downplay the bad stuff in order to root for and love the guy?  Honestly I think of all characters seeking redemption, Sandor is doing it the right way.  He's self-reflecting, holding himself responsible for his words and deeds, not making any more excuses, and moving forward making better choices.  No other character is making such a profound 180 degree turn.  Sandor isn't bullshitting himself or anyone anymore, why shouldn't I hold him to the same standard?  Actually I think I might be easier on him because at the end he's holding himself responsible for things he didn't even really do, but he conflates his guilt to being the worst piece of shit ever, which he is not.  I  think in TWOW we'll see him fully embrace the true knight he can be.  The QI shares a lot of parallels with Avalon, where King Arthur goes to heal his wounds and from where he is expected to return renewed.   

3 hours ago, Karmarni said:

My statement about overplay - really, it's meant to address the tendency to bring psychoanalysis, affective and behavioral science to literature. And GRRM is not James Joyce, he's a fantasy novel writer. Simple, close reading is all that's required to understand the story. So Loras is the Knight of Flowers, the pretty knight who cheats in the tourney. He's duplicitous; he's hiding his relationship with Renley. Sansa likes him in AGOT, and yet he's not who he seems to be. She's learns that he's "not into her." 

 I doubt that pointing out a preteen girl having a crush on a pretty boy is some kind of deep psychoanalysis.  Speaking as someone who has been a preteen girl, nothing shocks me about her Loras crush at 12 years old.  That she would have a conscious fantasy about  kissing him is nothing groundbreaking.  Where is the problem?  Sansa doesn't know he cheated at the tounrey and that's irrelevant here anyway, because this is just about her fantasy life.  As a prisoner, the only thing she does have control over is what goes on  in her own mind. BTW, Loras and Renly are not free in this society to be openly gay so I'm not sure how that counts against him.  He's not a great guy, but he's not the worst guy ever -- he's not Joffrey.  Is it just because he's conventionally attractive and that makes her shallow?  So what?  This isn't about a real possible suitor situation where his character matters so much more.  He's sixteen years old, soft-featured, and non-threatening.  The adult world of men and women is intimidating.  Sandor is a grown man and he's got a very intense personality.  She's 12 and no one should be expecting her to be ready for that serious type of adult relationship.  Loras is only a a little older. He's manly enough, but still a youth  like she is.  None of this is that deep.  It 's a pretty accurate representation of how young girls cope with getting ready for adult life.  Ask any female about that time period in her life. 

Is there some rule that fantasy writers are not allowed to utilize real world things like psychology and real life experience to make their characters more believable or relateable? Is that only the domain of "serious" literature?  Because George seems .like a pretty traditional writer that uses things like symbolism, metaphor, parallels, plot driven by character's choices, and he borrows heavily from other genres and works.  He's stated it many times that he believes in the Faulkner quote "the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself."  But if you only see just a fantasy novel, well okay but I'm sure 99% of the regulars on this board would beg to differ. 

  

[Le Cygne]

On 7/3/2017 at 2:27 PM, Nasty LongRider said:

Rorge is mostly a generic bad guy of the nasty type that GRRM put in the RL's.   His wearing of the helmet isn't to show us what the Hound could have been, but what type of trouble he may find for himself when he leaves the QI.  

Many in the RL are convinced that the Hound lead the rape and burning of the Saltpans thanks to Rorge wearing the dog helmet.  

So Sandor will have quite a dilemma to face when he starts his comeback. That's how I read it anyway. 

Yep, simple plot device.

Also the Elder Brother said Sandor wouldn't do that... dogs are nobler. Even Jaime said he wouldn't do that. Sansa knows he wouldn't do that. GRRM is making it really clear, Sandor wouldn't do that.

@The Bard of Banefort and @Lifestream nice points, too!

Someone's bark is worse than his bite: Sansa: Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. Arya: Arya didn’t think he’d really cut her tongue out; he was just saying that...

(added quotes)

[Le Cygne]

On 7/3/2017 at 11:35 AM, Karmarni said:

That's a pretty extreme 'parallel' that you're drawing there, don't you think? Sandor would be Rorge if not for the Elder Brother 's therapy? Basing this on Sandor's own helm being stolen and hair color and disfigured face and reference to dogs? Does that have anything at all to do with Sandor's character that we've learned of throughout the story? 

I don't buy it. Sandor Clegane was never going to be the mass rapist that Rorge was. The stolen helm, Rorge's raping at Saltpans, this is all a plot mechanism for GRRM. It's not meant to say that since Sandor Clegane called himself a butcher, Septon Maribald said broken men turn bad, add Thoros' thoughts on the helm, stir, bake for an hour and Sandor is on his way to going full mad dog --- no, that's his brother. 

For saying that Sandor Clegane is a favorite character, well, that's a pretty harsh way of showing it.

Agreed. Extreme and off book. That's his brother, NOT him. That's a very key point in the story.