Sandor and Tyrion

[The Bard of Banefort]

19 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yep, simple plot device.

Also the Elder Brother said Sandor wouldn't do that... dogs are nobler. Even Jaime said he wouldn't do that. Sansa knows he wouldn't do that. Seems like GRRM is making it pretty clear, Sandor wouldn't do that.

@The Bard of Banefort and @Lifestream nice points, too!

One of the few things I dislike about the series is the way GRRM knocks the same characters down over and over again. For instance, Tyrion definitely has a lot of flaws, but it's weird how George keeps finding ways to make things get progressively worse for him. We're told ad nauseum that he's unattractive, and then he loses his nose and becomes even more unattractive. He feels like nobody loves him, so then his father and sister charge him with regicide and his lover testifies against him and he finds out the truth about Tysha. It felt a bit cartoonish after a while. And now we're seeing that with the Hound: tormented soul, wounded leg, taken to the Quiet Isle, and now some asshole is using his identity to rape and plunder. And like you said, it's a plot device.

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the few things I dislike about the series is the way GRRM knocks the same characters down over and over again. For instance, Tyrion definitely has a lot of flaws, but it's weird how George keeps finding ways to make things get progressively worse for him. We're told ad nauseum that he's unattractive, and then he loses his nose and becomes even more unattractive. He feels like nobody loves him, so then his father and sister charge him with regicide and his lover testifies against him and he finds out the truth about Tysha. It felt a bit cartoonish after a while. And now we're seeing that with the Hound: tormented soul, wounded leg, taken to the Quiet Isle, and now some asshole is using his identity to rape and plunder. And like you said, it's a plot device.

It's really tragic, isn't it. The characters have to overcome the prejudice somehow, and he weaves stories around how they do that (or how they fail). And I agree, it's overdone at times.

The interesting thing about Sandor is he has several people saying no, he would never do that. Jaime, the Elder Brother, and of course, Sansa knows he never would.

There's also the story of Sandor helping the villagers build the palisade. He works hard, and earns his pay, and wants to stay, but he can't escape what his brother did to him.

They know him because of the scars on his face. So his story will be interesting, he can never lose that, I think it will take a village to speak on his behalf, and Sansa may be the one to lead that.

[LongRider]

I don't see at all that GRRM put Rorge on the page to be a compare/contrast with the Hound.  

If there was any character for that (and I'm not convinced one is even needed) that would be dear brother Gregor.  

Rorge is monster because monsters roamed the RL.  Wearing the dog helm will convince some that the Hound has gone bad and others won't believe it.

I just see trouble ahead because the EB shouldn't have left the helm on the grave to be found by the plot device. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

51 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

I disagree with your point. At the beginning of the story, AGOT, Sandor is what...27? 28? And he has been fighting probably since 12-14 as far as I can tell. I don't think he'd get worse. If anything, at this point in his life (after Eddard is caught), Sandor enjoys more privileges than ever before. he's Kingsguard, hasn't taken any vows, he has more status.

What do his privileges have to do with his moral choices?  If anything that potentially empowers him to do even worse things with impunity.  Knighthood and Lannister privilege protected and protects Gregor.  27/28 is still young.  He still has a good many years of choices ahead of him to make his legacy, good or bad.  Yes he is self-destructive.  That's a bad sign.  It's not a big step to turning your self-loathing outward on other people from there.

56 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

But Mycah is a nobody. he's there for a lot of things. he's there to establish Arya's and Sandor's relationship. But he's also there to show us how bad people like Mycah have it. I don't understand why people focus only on Sandor. Sandor did the deed, but behind Mycah's death are many people and they're all of noble birth. From Cersei to Joffrey and even Sansa.

As Sandor later tells Sansa, he's had to kill children too. So why should Mycah have significance for him? He doesn't, but Mycah is the reason for the hostile relationship between Arya and the Hound. Sure, later on Mycah acquires a more symbolic meaning in regards to the Hound, but he represents the rest of his atrocities and how he might feel about them.

Mycah is somebody.  Even though we only get to see him briefly and he is there for a plot purpose, Arya is reminding everyone that Mycah's life was important too.  He had a family.  He had a life ahead of him.  He died because of the whims of the privileged and he was poor and disposable.  I doubt Sandor would have gone after Mycah on his own.  He was ordered to do it, that much is certain.  That is a mitigating circumstance which should be taken into account, but even Sandor knows that "just following orders" is a very flimsy excuse for anyone.  Arys Oakheart protested a little bit at having to beat Sansa but he did it anyway.  He chose knighthood and enjoys it's privileges, but when it came down to following orders or standing up for the knightly vow of protecting the innocent, he chose the former.  Would there be a consequence for defying orders?  Sure.  But look at Brienne who tells us in no uncertain terms that knights always have a choice of trying to do the right thing even if they may die.  Sandor did the right thing in the bread riot.  He did the true knight thing.  He does have those ideals buried inside him, so if he knows what the right thing is, he doesn't get to also make the excuse of "just following orders" in other situations.  It's hard to do the right thing.  It involves sacrifice at times, but that is what a true knight may be called to do.  Deep down Sandor knows this and he will acknowledge that he murdered an innocent person in the service of awful people.  He could have chosen to conveniently "not be able to find" the butcher's boy.  The royal train was still on it's way to KL, they wouldn't be lingering in the Darry area long.    

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

As for laughing, I don't think the Sandor is laughing out of evilness. It's pretty obvious that it's a defense mechanism for him, but I think given the choice he'd never have killed Mycah.

 I agree with you that if it were his decision alone, he wouldn't have gone after Mycah.  The laughter is most likely a defense mechanism, but that's only a reason that I believe he is redeemable, not a reason to minimize his actions.  Laughing a child's death (his choice, Cersei didn't make him mock a murdered child) is still a shitty thing to do, no matter why you are doing it.  He is an grown man of 27-28.  He doesn't get to ride on his past injustice or blaming the system for everything he forever.  When does he get to be an adult responsible for his words and actions? 

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

As for laughing, I don't think the Sandor is laughing out of evilness. It's pretty obvious that it's a defense mechanism for him, but I think given the choice he'd never have killed Mycah. Heck, even when fighting the Mountain not once does he point any lethal blows at him as Ned points out. Why? Well one could say that his encounter with Sansa last night touched and made him more heroic. While that may not be a factor, i think the biggest reason is Sandor's own moral code or what you want to call it. When they were fighting Gregor wasn't wearing his helmet. And that's consistent with Sandor it seems, cause in ASOS Thoros of Myr tells us that Sandor would never never attack them in their sleep.

Thoros seems to be familiar with Sandor from their times at melees, that was before Sandor ever met Sansa. So it seems even before he met Sansa, Sandor had his own set of boundaries.

You do bring up some excellent points.  I don't believe it's all Sansa, thought the timing of their first talk does matter here.  He has to make the choice on his own of what he will or won't do.  His actions do seem to suggest he does have a moral code of some kind.  Maybe he really doesn't want to kill his brother as much as he claims.  The tourney was the perfect opportunity to do so.  No one could accuse him of kinslaying if he was defending Loras.  But he chooses not to exploit the situation.  He does have a sense of fairness against attacking an unarmed, vulnerable opponent.  So why didn't that code apply to a defenseless butcher's boy?  Loras doesn't mean anything to Sandor any more than Mycah did.  I'm not saying it would be easy to defy the Queen, he may lose privileges over it, but Mycah's life is worth more than Sandor's privileges.  He does have choices, just not ones he's willing to make at that moment.          

1 hour ago, Lifestream said:

And his instance of losing it is when he goes to Sansa's room on the night of the BotB where he's lost everything and he really has nowhere to go.

While I defend Sandor to the end that he was never intending to rape Sansa or actually hurt her, his actions were so wildly inappropriate and he was so drunk and mentally compromised he could have hurt her without meaning to.  That's the last thing on earth he would want.  I think he would kill himself if he did.  While I understand where that whole meltdown came from and Sansa does too, it still frightened and endangered someone he cared for.  If he doesn't get a handle on this rage inside him he could end up doing something beyond redemption in the heat of the moment.  Then it doesn't matter why he did something, the damage is done. There is a point of no return that he came close to crossing but didn't.  I mean cutting her or taking her against her will, not raping her.  Again, the wildfire and Tyrion humiliating him make me understand why things happened as they did and why I think it makes him redeemable.  It doesn't absolve his responsibility for his actions.              

[Le Cygne]

Sansa seems pretty clear about how she feels here. I'm going to listen to her. Putting things in perspective, compassion, understanding. Nice things.

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

I do listen to Sansa's feelings about her own preferences and desires.  I got a Sansan tumblr blog, I don't need a lecture on who I want this girl to wind up with.  I'm already confident it's endgame.  But FFS she's 12.  Let her be 12 and have her normal preteen crushes.  They don't mean anything for her future.  They don't threaten anything.  This is so bizarre to expect that Sansa should NEVER EVER THINK ABOUT another male EVER other than Sandor.  Because that's not what the text says.  She thinks about them both even at the same time! 

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His last match of the day was against the younger Royce. Ser Robar's ancestral runes proved small protection as Ser Loras split his shield and drove him from his saddle to crash with an awful clangor in the dirt. Robar lay moaning as the victor made his circuit of the field. Finally they called for a litter and carried him off to his tent, dazed and unmoving. Sansa never saw it. Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst.

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you." Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. She inhaled the sweet fragrance of the rose and sat clutching it long after Ser Loras had ridden off.

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Instead Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs, and said, "Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady."
"He was too kind," she demurred, trying to remain modest and calm, though her heart was singing. "Ser Loras is a true knight. Do you think he will win tomorrow, my lord?"

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"I suppose," Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better.

22 is old to her!    Sandor is positively ancient then.

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When the appointed night arrived, another of the Kingsguard came for her, a man as different from Sandor Clegane as . . . well, as a flower from a dog. The sight of Ser Loras Tyrell standing on her threshold made Sansa's heart beat a little faster. This was the first time she had been so close to him since he had returned to King's Landing, leading the vanguard of his father's host. For a moment she did not know what to say. "Ser Loras," she finally managed, "you . . . you look so lovely."
He gave her a puzzled smile. "My lady is too kind. And beautiful besides. My sister awaits you eagerly."

"Oh," said Sansa. I am talking to him, and he's touching me, he's holding my arm and touching me. 

But then she gets a dose of reality about Loras:

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"At the Hand's tourney, don't you remember? You rode a white courser, and your armor was a hundred different kinds of flowers. You gave me a rose. A red rose. You threw white roses to the other girls that day." It made her flush to speak of it. "You said no victory was half as beautiful as me."
Ser Loras gave her a modest smile. "I spoke only a simple truth, that any man with eyes could see."
He doesn't remember, Sansa realized, startled. He is only being kind to me, he doesn't remember me or the rose or any of it. She had been so certain that it meant something, that it meant everything. A red rose, not a white. "It was after you unhorsed Ser Robar Royce," she said, desperately.

Still, knowing the reality that the rose was just for show and meant nothing:

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"To see you safely wed, child," the old woman said, as Butterbumps bellowed out the old, old song, "to my grandson."
Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

She still wants to touch him and kiss him.  She thought about the unkiss in this same scene too!  All while the Bear and Maiden Fair is played LOUDLY in the background, indicating her subconscious thoughts of the "bear" Sandor.  And even after wrapping her brain around marrying Willas:

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She could never hold a picture of Willas long in her head, though; her imaginings kept turning him back into Ser Loras, young and graceful and beautiful. You must not think of him like that, she told herself. Or else he may see the disappointment in your eyes when you meet, and how could he marry you then, knowing it was his brother you loved?

Of course, this isn't love.  It's the intense feelings of a first erotic crush that sometimes seem like love.  She's still a very immature young girl who doesn't yet know what makes for a real lasting love yet.  But she's learning.  

I'm sorry you don't like this.  I'm sorry she isn't ONLY thinking of Sandor.  I assure you it doesn't threaten anything for Sansan.  Why do you want a 12 year old immature preteen to be dead set on a grown man right now?  Why isn't she supposed to be a normal girl?  Sandor even knows she's too immature and naive.  That's why he refrains from acting on his attraction.       

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

So if Rorge is just meant to be a random bad dude, then all his twisted parallels to Sandor are just pure coincidence and it's just pure coincidence that he's the one George chose to pick up the Hound's helm.  Damn Sandor, that's such shitty luck this random bad dude that just happens to be built and black-haired with a disfigured face that has absolutely no metaphoric meaning whatsoever and has his own mean dog sidekick is the one random bad dude that decides to impersonate you of all people.  That is some really shitty bad luck, Sandor.  And damn, Sandor, the lady knight that was hunting you down actually ends up killing the dude that impersonated you of all people.  Wow!    

And that's how writing works people.  Authors write random shit for purely sensationalist plot points.  

  

[Le Cygne]

On 7/3/2017 at 7:07 PM, Nasty LongRider said:

I don't see at all that GRRM put Rorge on the page to be a compare/contrast with the Hound.  

If there was any character for that (and I'm not convinced one is even needed) that would be dear brother Gregor.  

Rorge is monster because monsters roamed the RL.  Wearing the dog helm will convince some that the Hound has gone bad and others won't believe it.

I just see trouble ahead because the EB shouldn't have left the helm on the grave to be found by the plot device. 

Agreed.

On 7/3/2017 at 10:54 AM, Karmarni said:

My statement about overplay - really, it's meant to address the tendency to bring psychoanalysis, affective and behavioral science to literature. And GRRM is not James Joyce, he's a fantasy novel writer. Simple, close reading is all that's required to understand the story. So Loras is the Knight of Flowers, the pretty knight who cheats in the tourney. He's duplicitous; he's hiding his relationship with Renley. Sansa likes him in AGOT, and yet he's not who he seems to be. She's learns that he's "not into her."

Agreed.

The helm theft is a case of mistaken identity, an injustice toward Sandor, just like with Gregor. In the story, Sandor and Rorge are very different. Just like Sandor and Gregor are very different.

The author is saying Sandor is not Gregor, not Rorge. The author has several main characters say that very thing. DOGS ARE NOBLER, the Elder Brother says. Not Sandor, he wouldn't do that.

Sansa knows he wouldn't do that. Sandor is the one who rescues Sansa from men like that, he's her knight.

Gotta play fair when playing the parallel game, and include everyone.

Two people having scars is a parallel, so Brienne is a parallel to Rorge, half her cheek was bitten off while she was dueling with Rorge!

Two people wearing a helm is a parallel, so Lem is a parallel to Rorge, they both wear the stolen helm!

Two people who don't have a nose is a parallel, so Tyrion is a parallel to Rorge, both are missing noses! IDENTICAL SCAR MATCH!

Anyway, the Loras stuff... no one cares about that because Sansa doesn't care about that. A sentence later, she says he means nothing, over and over again.

There's a series long pattern where over and over again, Sansa replaces Joffrey, Loras, Tyrion, and others with Sandor in her thoughts and dreams.

The Bear and the Maiden Fair is about a Beast, not a rose. Right before the song, Sansa wishes the Hound (Beast) was there, then says the rose (Loras) meant nothing.

She gives the Beast (the Hound) the "real" kisses and places him in her bed, that's eroticism. It's a sexual awakening story, via Beauty and the Beast.

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

Lots more Beauty and the Beast here...

(updated the link, BatB stuff is on another thread)

[Karmarni]

The stories are all progressive. Built on who the characters are at the outset and the circumstances they face as they continue. To say that a character could have been this, or could have been that is like saying those circumstances never happened. To turn back the clock. And that won't and can't happen.

Personally, I don't try to read into the story and try to assign how I think they should feel or think based on more than what I see written in the story. To do so leads to conjecture that GRRM plans all these things down to the very last detail. And I don't think he does. The story gets lost in the analysis. 

Sansa's thoughts on Loras are part of the hallmark of her naivete. They take up very, very little in the novel and expanding upon them is at the expense of the character who has been with her, in body or thought, from AGOT. Certainly the emphasis is on Sandor, not Loras.

As for the ages, all that's water under the bridge. That's been done to death on these boards. And all I can say is, I don't use that for or against. GRRM shouldn't have made them so low if he was going to have them do the things they do/did. So the ages are no account to me. But he sure did marry her off to Tyrion to potentially be raped.

[LongRider]

Random plot devices picking up things from other characters, that's just how writing works folks!   If Rorge was like another character, it would Gregor, he was the bad one!  Rorge and Gregor were more alike than Rorge and Sandor ever were.  Rorge put on the helmet and didn't become Sandor's alter ego, he just became Rorge the raper in a stolen helm.

Bri killed Rorge thinking it was Sandor, but it's not.  This how a plot device works, lol, you know, a plot device doesn't mean that this device is what a specific character could be.  

If one wants a parallel to Sandor, why not look at Tyrion himself?  Their stories start out together, riding into WF, they are associated with the same family, the Lannisters, Tyrion by birth and Sandor by fealty.  They interact with the same girl who has huge a place in both their arcs, and their downfall starts in the same battle. 

Then their paths diverge.  Sandor leaves and is without a compass until he picks ups Arya, Tyrion is still trying to drink himself to death while looking for where whore's go.  

One might  argue that after Sandor steals Arya his redemption arc begins. (another might argue that it begins in Sansa's bedroom the night of the BW)  Where is Rorge's  redemption arc?  Oh yeah, it was at the end of Bri's  weapon. 

Sandor imagines himself becoming a loyal bannerman to Rob Stark and WF.  Then he regresses after  the RW but in the little village he finds he can work together with the villagers until they kick him in fear of his reputation and of being a deserter.   Then he tries to think up some other way to get Arya with her people and him a coin or two.  None of that has any parallel with Rorge.  

After the trauma, drama, and PSTD of the BW night, Sandor carried on but did not take his feelings out those weaker than himself, something  Rorge always did, in spades. 

 

[Lifestream]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:09 AM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

What do his privileges have to do with his moral choices?  If anything that potentially empowers him to do even worse things with impunity.  Knighthood and Lannister privilege protected and protects Gregor.  27/28 is still young.  He still has a good many years of choices ahead of him to make his legacy, good or bad.  Yes he is self-destructive.  That's a bad sign.  It's not a big step to turning your self-loathing outward on other people from there.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood, but when I mentioned his privileges and how his career had being on a good path, i meant that for Sandor his promotion must have had some positive impact on him. So in my mind, at that point he had less of an external reason to act in a sef-destructive manner, which he has the tendency to. letting power get to you is a valid concern, but it was not what I was talking about. The way you put it in the last post (or the way I understood) was that Sandor was deteriorating and his morals as well, that is what I disagreed with, because he shows no signs that he does, he has no biter or Gregor tendencies and his hard work has finally being acknowledge publicly and everyone can know through the position he has attained. (by joining the Kingsguard). Of course this prove to be more difficult to enjoy with Sansa being unjustly beaten. But again, I'm not talking about this part. Only that Sandor has for the first time in years to feel some sort of satisfaction in his life, because the position and status he gained is a result of his hard work (and as he tells us he really has nothing more to lose.)

 

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Mycah is somebody.  Even though we only get to see him briefly and he is there for a plot purpose, Arya is reminding everyone that Mycah's life was important too.  He had a family.  He had a life ahead of him.  He died because of the whims of the privileged and he was poor and disposable.  I doubt Sandor would have gone after Mycah on his own.  He was ordered to do it, that much is certain.  That is a mitigating circumstance which should be taken into account, but even Sandor knows that "just following orders" is a very flimsy excuse for anyone.  Arys Oakheart protested a little bit at having to beat Sansa but he did it anyway.  He chose knighthood and enjoys it's privileges, but when it came down to following orders or standing up for the knightly vow of protecting the innocent, he chose the former.  Would there be a consequence for defying orders?  Sure.  But look at Brienne who tells us in no uncertain terms that knights always have a choice of trying to do the right thing even if they may die.  Sandor did the right thing in the bread riot.  He did the true knight thing.  He does have those ideals buried inside him, so if he knows what the right thing is, he doesn't get to also make the excuse of "just following orders" in other situations.  It's hard to do the right thing.  It involves sacrifice at times, but that is what a true knight may be called to do.  Deep down Sandor knows this and he will acknowledge that he murdered an innocent person in the service of awful people.  He could have chosen to conveniently "not be able to find" the butcher's boy.  The royal train was still on it's way to KL, they wouldn't be lingering in the Darry area long.    

 

When I proposed some posts ago, that Sandor might have been an agent of LF, you told me that his loyalty would have no meaning and it's a big part of his character (paraphrasing), can't the same be said in this case if Sandor could choose to disobey orders anytime he didn't want to something? That's pretty idealistic, i'd assume Sandor knows the kind of job he's doing and that his own morals and ideals have no place when he's working. And of course till that point, he really has not being conflicted for a very long time I assume, until Sansa comes along. I think Brienne, believed in the same tales as well, of knighthood and heroism, but at the moment she's dealing with the conflicts and hardships that such a way of life bring. is it really fair? To use Brienne and her story as an example of true knighthood doesn't do anyone justice I think, especially if you look at where she is right now. (either being killed off by Ladystoneheart or having to betray Jaime. Can she really find a way to not betray either of them? It sounds pretty idealistic imo, so she'll probably have to choose one or the other. And again Brienne would die if she was by herself, but she isn't. She's with Pod who is also unjustly sentenced because he is travellng with Brienne. So now she has to bring Jaime to Ladystoneheart). Sandor already recognizes that he's killed innocent people while in service. He tells so Sansa and he calls himself a butcher when he's taken captive by the BwB and talks about the hypocrisy of knights.

Every knight(or most) has committed atrocities(except maybe Brienne who has inexperienced and has a different mission atm), that's the way of war, that's what Sandor keeps trying to explain Sansa about the knights. So no, he's not running away or excusing himself. The thing is though that he has good points, beyond being good at killing people and being loyal, and those are the points Sansa notices and so does Arya later on. Arya's relationship with the Hound isn't only a hostile one. It starts off that way, but while Arya is traveling she sees Sandor as a person, forgets to include him in her list and when he's suffering she doesn't kill him. She says it's cause he doesn't deserve mercy but that doesn't exclude the possibility that she just can't do it.

Sansa's rescue though isn't really defying any orders. If anything, he did the Lannisters a favor by saving her. They couldn't afford to lose Sansa. And again Sandor is very brave in general, unlike the other Kingsguard who were very scared and would not listen to Tyrion, Sandor isn't afraid of death (at least that's what he says). Just saying that in this case, Sandor's loyalties don't really conflict with his sense of right and wrong. (unlike say when he's ordered by Joffrey to hit Sansa too)

 

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 I agree with you that if it were his decision alone, he wouldn't have gone after Mycah.  The laughter is most likely a defense mechanism, but that's only a reason that I believe he is redeemable, not a reason to minimize his actions.  Laughing a child's death (his choice, Cersei didn't make him mock a murdered child) is still a shitty thing to do, no matter why you are doing it.  He is an grown man of 27-28.  He doesn't get to ride on his past injustice or blaming the system for everything he forever.  When does he get to be an adult responsible for his words and actions? 

 

To be honest I'm personally not that bothered with it. It's inappropriate yeah, but as I understand where it's coming from it doesn't upset me much. He was pretty brutal to Sansa about her father's death and he mocked them both, I mind that a bit more, but I still understand the reason behind it. He has issues to be honest, it's kinda difficult for people with issues (that they don't deal with) to be decent people and I believe for Sandor though conflicting feelings are more intense during the book series. (with Sansa and Arya around to challenge his way of life). But again you have to remember the state that Sandor is in. I don't know how present his father was before the burning incident, but that alone should tell you how unsupportive he was when Sandor probably needed him most. (Sandor may not be blaming him, cause let's be honest, Gregor is scary and I wouldn't be surprised if his father was scared of him as well) And then he left "home" when he was 12 to become a soldier. That's all Sandor has, he has no home or family to speak off and from what we know, he had no childhood either. I think it's a bit unfair to be offended at his lack of politeness and brash nature. (not saying it's nice, but I personally can tolerate it)

 

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You do bring up some excellent points.  I don't believe it's all Sansa, thought the timing of their first talk does matter here.  He has to make the choice on his own of what he will or won't do.  His actions do seem to suggest he does have a moral code of some kind.  Maybe he really doesn't want to kill his brother as much as he claims.  The tourney was the perfect opportunity to do so.  No one could accuse him of kinslaying if he was defending Loras.  But he chooses not to exploit the situation.  He does have a sense of fairness against attacking an unarmed, vulnerable opponent.  So why didn't that code apply to a defenseless butcher's boy?  Loras doesn't mean anything to Sandor any more than Mycah did.  I'm not saying it would be easy to defy the Queen, he may lose privileges over it, but Mycah's life is worth more than Sandor's privileges.  He does have choices, just not ones he's willing to make at that moment.          

 

Yeah, I've been thinking about his willingness to kill his brother as well. I wonder if he really wants it or not. Though I think at that moment, when he jumped in to defend Loras, he didn't want to allow Gregor to hurt anymore people.

Because Sandor didn't witness the incident. All he got was, go out and kill (perhaps) the butcher's boy because he assaulted the prince. He admits to not knowing about his innocence when Arya is accusing him. Whilst in the Hand's tourney, he can see what is happening and I'm sure Gregor arouses all sorts of emotions in him (understandably so because he has suffered in Gregor's hands).

Other than that I'm very curious about his real feelings towards Gregor. When he was talking with Sansa he did say "I might have to kill my brother tomorrow", so it does seem like he was preparing mentally for it or something.

 

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While I defend Sandor to the end that he was never intending to rape Sansa or actually hurt her, his actions were so wildly inappropriate and he was so drunk and mentally compromised he could have hurt her without meaning to.  That's the last thing on earth he would want.  I think he would kill himself if he did.  While I understand where that whole meltdown came from and Sansa does too, it still frightened and endangered someone he cared for.  If he doesn't get a handle on this rage inside him he could end up doing something beyond redemption in the heat of the moment.  Then it doesn't matter why he did something, the damage is done. There is a point of no return that he came close to crossing but didn't.  I mean cutting her or taking her against her will, not raping her.  Again, the wildfire and Tyrion humiliating him make me understand why things happened as they did and why I think it makes him redeemable.  It doesn't absolve his responsibility for his actions.              

Well , Sandor hurt himself the most that night. He seems to brood over it, but Sansa got over it and in the end she didn't even attain so much as a scratch which is weird considering Jon did the same thing to Ygritte but he drew blood. Oh that's another thing. Really interesting how similar those incidents are and how both of the girls consider them romantic (though in Ygritte's case it's her culture) And it's funny how Sansa later on seems to be bitter over Sandor not "stealing" her.

 

You said you have a SanSan tumblr? Can you share it? (PM me). I wanna take a look. (I wonder if I've ever come across yours )

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I'm not really convinced that Sandor's dislike of Tyrion is based on Tisha's story and that Tyrion could hurt Sansa. Quite the opposite, Tyrion showed compassion to Sansa in front of Sandor. Moreover they teamed up though unknowingly twice to save Sansa. First, during the bread riots. Tyrion was the only person who noticed that Sansa was missing and had the authority to send someone to rescue her. Obviously he couldn't go himself but he sent help backed by Cersei. Sandor would probably notice that Sansa wasn't there but he didn't have authority to go by himself. Secondly, when Jeffrey ordered to beat Sansa. Sandor's "Enough!" wasn't enough to stop the beating, but Tyrion was there to save the day (again because he had authority). 

That's why I think that Sandor's dislike is partly based on general dispise of Lannisters but mosy on BoBW episode.

[Batbob45]

Sandor and Tyrion are somewhat alike. Both are disfigured and both get along  with Tommen(Sandor said that Tommen was brave for getting back on his horse) and Myrcella.(Tyrion seem to care about them) (Sandor laugh in agreement about kids supposed to be childish). being kind to Tommen and Myrcella is not Sandor's job and yet he was nice to them. Sandor might not like Tyrion because of what he heard about what happened to Tysha(Sandor might of not been at Casterly Rock when Tywin had Tysha's brutalized(best way to describe it) by the guards and Tyrion(who was force to participate)) .    .

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I'm not really convinced that Sandor's dislike of Tyrion is based on Tisha's story and that Tyrion could hurt Sansa. Quite the opposite, Tyrion showed compassion to Sansa in front of Sandor. Moreover they teamed up though unknowingly twice to save Sansa. First, during the bread riots. Tyrion was the only person who noticed that Sansa was missing and had the authority to send someone to rescue her. Obviously he couldn't go himself but he sent help backed by Cersei. Sandor would probably notice that Sansa wasn't there but he didn't have authority to go by himself. Secondly, when Jeffrey ordered to beat Sansa. Sandor's "Enough!" wasn't enough to stop the beating, but Tyrion was there to save the day (again because he had authority). 

Sandor should feel grateful when Tyrion saves Sansa from harm, but human nature being what it is, it's probably more jealousy and frustration.

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

That's why I think that Sandor's dislike is partly based on general dispise of Lannisters but mosy on BoBW episode.

Agree - the Lannisters have been driving him slowly crazy: all that twitching he does, and the way he flares up when people try to treat him respectfully - it's not exactly the sign of a well-balanced mind.

And why did he wear a tourney helm on a hunt across country for a small boy? Either he's got a weird fantasy villain complex, or he was ashamed and hiding his face and his tears. Laughter can be hysterical too.

He couldn't have saved Mycah. No way would Cersei have let Mycah roam round Westeros telling the tale of how Joffrey was thrashed by a little girl. How much gold was she offering for a wolf's skin? She'd want Mycah much more. She'd want him alive to punish first.

Mycah got the gift of mercy. Sandor believed in the gift of mercy so much he wanted it for himself.

It's still the issue Sandor has to come to terms with and repent of - the butcher's boy will haunt the 'butcher' - but basically it's a sin of dispair. He let himself believe the whole world - even Ned Stark - was as bloodthirsty and evil as the Lannisters. So he didn't leave. Deep down he knew better - hence the semi-breakdown.

Tyrion seem to function perfectly normally in the Lannister culture of violence - either his conscience is buried even deeper, or he hasn't got one. (Jaime hasn't - he's trying to learn it by thinking of what would please Brienne.)

[Ashes Of Westeros]

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

And why did he wear a tourney helm on a hunt across country for a small boy? Either he's got a weird fantasy villain complex, or he was ashamed and hiding his face and his tears. Laughter can be hysterical too.

This is a good question. He doesn't wear a full armour during the bread riots, but put on his helmet to hunt a boy...

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/3/2017 at 8:07 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So if Rorge is just meant to be a random bad dude, then all his twisted parallels to Sandor are just pure coincidence and it's just pure coincidence that he's the one George chose to pick up the Hound's helm.  Damn Sandor, that's such shitty luck this random bad dude that just happens to be built and black-haired with a disfigured face that has absolutely no metaphoric meaning whatsoever and has his own mean dog sidekick is the one random bad dude that decides to impersonate you of all people.  That is some really shitty bad luck, Sandor.  And damn, Sandor, the lady knight that was hunting you down actually ends up killing the dude that impersonated you of all people.  Wow!    

And that's how writing works people.  Authors write random shit for purely sensationalist plot points.  

  

I agree. There is no such thing as random with the way GRRM writes.  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I agree. There is no such thing as random with the way GRRM writes.  

The most deliberate little , isn't he? 

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I always thought that the reason why Sandor Clegane hated Tyrion was because of the Tysha, but now I am not so sure. That he despises all of the Lannisters, with perhaps Tommen and Myrcella as exception, seems more like it.

On 16-7-2017 at 8:46 PM, Springwatch said:

And why did he wear a tourney helm on a hunt across country for a small boy? Either he's got a weird fantasy villain complex, or he was ashamed and hiding his face and his tears. Laughter can be hysterical too.

Maybe he put it on to mentally arm himself. I always knew that Sandor Clegane was quite sensitive person, but this thread makes me realize just how much sensitive he is. Very enlightening thread, truly.