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Disliking Tyrion Lannister


Sigella

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20 minutes ago, zandru said:

Good observation! However, note that Tyrion's arc has him at the top of his game in the first two books, his high point being just before the Battle of the Blackwater. There he is, Hand of the King, keeping Joffrey under control, doing what he can to feed the smallfolk of King's Landing, setting up a defense, dispensing justice. This was as good as it gets. Then he shames the Hound in front of his own men, rides into battle, and wakes maimed, even uglier, his powers all stripped from him, and having been kept unconscious by his sister in the hopes he'd eventually just fade away.

So Tyrion crawls into a flagon and stays there as long as possible. It severely impacts his character. His remarks are less astute but more cutting. He doesn't plan as well. Things get worse. He's forcibly married to a child who hates him. He's framed for regicide. His dear big brother confesses that Tyrion's one great love was not, in fact, a hired whore but the real thing. He commits patricide. Then he's shipped overseas and becomes a valued gift that nobody really wants to transport, kidnapped, beaten, enslaved, turned into a performing dwarf, and by the end of Dances with Dragons, is starting to regain some autonomy again. He still hasn't gotten to the Dragon Queen yet, however, and is still haunted by his memories of Tysha and just "where DO whores go, anyway?" (My guess is Braavos.)

Tyrion has actually managed pretty well under stress, but it's made him more acerbic, less amusing. He'll probably never be his old carefree self.

That is what i said, but way more elaborate :-)

What would you expect from someone going through this.....he was a good hand. HE WAS! He cared about the smallfolk and he did his best to stay true to his office. What did he get.....Demon Monkey......

edit:

Also....the Blackwater.....i pardon the Hound because of his fear of fire but anyone who tells me that Tyrion didn't save the city has to explain this to me.....the hound also was not in charge of anything more than a bunch of men. Tyrion really shined there.....

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

 

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Prefer the show Tyrion who at least has some redeeming features, and doesn't dress quite as flamboyant..

Beyond aesthetic regrets, why oh why does he have to say such awful things to people like always? 

That's a reaction to his environment. Mocked by everyone, being hated by his father and sister.

He's like Tywin, but instead of becoming a ruthless cold guy like his father, he grew to become a sarcastic, cynic dwarf.

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He's my favorite character, so take it all with a grain of salt, I guess...

 

1) He is a product of his environment. I know, for one, that if I had been raised by a father who loathed me, blamed me for everything, and openly let the entire world know that he loathed me, I would've turned out much worse than Tyrion. I also believe that, for instance, Ned, Dany, and Jon, would have turned out worse than Tyrion, if put through the same ringer. Not to even mention, having a sister who hates you, living in a world that considers you a monster, etc

2) He's less of a misogynist than 99% of male Westeros. Even the most high minded, noble, honorable men in the books, consider women to belong at home, married, taking orders, keeping quiet.

3) I'd have shot Tywin, too. (though I'd like to think I'd have let Shae live.

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Who knows how Dany will turn out.....maybe she will be way more destructive than Tyrion, or be even worse under his "guidance" (if the Books turn out the same as the show), but yes...Tyrion has at least a reason to be like he is.

Concerning Misogyny...true....think he at least takes a liking in women....dont know what good it does them but at least he does not see them as birth-machines like the rest of Westeros...

Would have shot him too.....but i think your Shae-Picture is tainted bcause of Sibel :-)

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

2) He's less of a misogynist than 99% of male Westeros. Even the most high minded, noble, honorable men in the books, consider women to belong at home, married, taking orders, keeping quiet.

So what makes him 'less' misogynistic than them?

I mean sure, he'd shine if compared to Randyll Tarly, but what else?

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2 hours ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@Sigella you are brave starting this post lol.  I find Tyrion amusing in ACOK and ASOS and mostly annoying in the other books.  I would not like him as a person in real life, and consider him as morally reprehensible as Cersei.  I can empathize with how he is a product of his environment and may have turned out differently in a loving family, and I hope he finds some form of redemption like Jaime.

Jaime tried to kill a little boy.  It was only Bran but still that was attempted murder of a boy in his own home.  Jamie fans excuse this by saying Jaime had a right to protect his own children and Bran could have put them all in danger.  Tyrion killed his father in cold blood.  So I say they're both guilty of some pretty awful stuff.  I will still claim that Tyrion is a much better man than Jaime.  Jaime is the man who was sworn to defend his king and he killed him rather than take him to safety.  Jaime was sworn to guard his king and he was plugging the man's wife in the background.  Tyrion gets the high ground in my book.

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24 minutes ago, Dela81 said:

hmmm......misunderstanding maybe? im german ...maybe i chose the wrong words? or you totally disagree with my comparison?

I'm sorry - what I meant was, I have a real problem going on and on, and saying things in several hundred words that most people could do in ten. I was criticizing me, not you!

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

Good observation! However, note that Tyrion's arc has him at the top of his game in the first two books, his high point being just before the Battle of the Blackwater. There he is, Hand of the King, keeping Joffrey under control, doing what he can to feed the smallfolk of King's Landing, setting up a defense, dispensing justice. This was as good as it gets. Then he shames the Hound in front of his own men, rides into battle, and wakes maimed, even uglier, his powers all stripped from him, and having been kept unconscious by his sister in the hopes he'd eventually just fade away.

So Tyrion crawls into a flagon and stays there as long as possible. It severely impacts his character. His remarks are less astute but more cutting. He doesn't plan as well. Things get worse. He's forcibly married to a child who hates him. He's framed for regicide. His dear big brother confesses that Tyrion's one great love was not, in fact, a hired whore but the real thing. He commits patricide. Then he's shipped overseas and becomes a valued gift that nobody really wants to transport, kidnapped, beaten, enslaved, turned into a performing dwarf, and by the end of Dances with Dragons, is starting to regain some autonomy again. He still hasn't gotten to the Dragon Queen yet, however, and is still haunted by his memories of Tysha and just "where DO whores go, anyway?" (My guess is Braavos.)

Tyrion has actually managed pretty well under stress, but it's made him more acerbic, less amusing. He'll probably never be his old carefree self.

I hadn't considered that, but yes, when Tyrion is most secure and empowered is when I most enjoyed reading him.  I did not enjoy him in AGOT and really didn't enjoy him in ADWD.  You've found the common denominator - Tyrion is at his best when he is in power.

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2 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I hadn't considered that, but yes, when Tyrion is most secure and empowered is when I most enjoyed reading him.  I did not enjoy him in AGOT and really didn't enjoy him in ADWD.  You've found the common denominator - Tyrion is at his best when he is in power.

You can say that about most people.  Lack of agency makes one less interesting.

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Tyrion killed his Father.....yes.....anyone here really think Tywin would let him of the hook?

He knew he was not responsible, yet he refused to listen to anything.....yes...he didnt listen to Cersei either (show only? not sure) but anyone really think he would have pardoned Tyrion??

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17 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Jaime tried to kill a little boy.  It was only Bran but still that was attempted murder of a boy in his own home.  Jamie fans excuse this by saying Jaime had a right to protect his own children and Bran could have put them all in danger.  Tyrion killed his father in cold blood.  So I say they're both guilty of some pretty awful stuff.  I will still claim that Tyrion is a much better man than Jaime.  Jaime is the man who was sworn to defend his king and he killed him rather than take him to safety.  Jaime was sworn to guard his king and he was plugging the man's wife in the background.  Tyrion gets the high ground in my book.

Fair points - Jaime is among my favorite characters but I did not intend to pass judgment on Tyrion compared to Jaime.  They both have done some awful stuff.  What I meant was that similar to how Jaime is going through a crisis of conscience and is beginning to change his ways, I hope Tyrion has a similar experience.

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37 minutes ago, zandru said:

I'm sorry - what I meant was, I have a real problem going on and on, and saying things in several hundred words that most people could do in ten. I was criticizing me, not you!

Well im sorry then.....didnt really get it :)

really thought you felt offended by my post.....sorry if we misunderstood each other

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1 minute ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You can say that about most people.  Lack of agency makes one less interesting.

I found Stannis more interesting when things were bleak for him, same with Dany.  It all depends on the character.  I do agree with your assessment about lack of agency - even when things weren't going well for Stannis and Dany they still were motivated.

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I prefer morally ambiguous book-Tyrion to Saint Tyrion the Good of the show, but I do agree that he's much darker than most fans are willing to admit. I'm actually not sure if he'll end up helping Dany in the books; Dany puts a lot of faith in Quaithe's prophecies, and Quaithe told her not to trust the lion. Tyrion's filled with a great deal of anger and resentment right now. He wants to watch Westeros burn, and punish all the people that he thinks should have been more grateful to him.

I agree that George goes overboard with describing how ugly Tyrion is. By ASOS, it's become cartoonish.

One interesting thing about Tyrion is also how similar he is to both his father and his sister. Politically ambitious, cutthroat, proud, vengeful, and like Cersei, an alcoholic. One of the things that was so surprising about Jaime's POVs was how much he didn't have in common with the rest of his family: no political ambition, buries his feelings, finds no solace in wine or prostitutes. I think this may actually be one of the less-acknowledged reasons for why Jaime is so popular among readers--he's the least "Lannister-like." I love the headcanon that Jaime takes after his mother instead of his father, but until we learn more about Joanna, we can't know for sure. 

I don't think Tyrion is devoid of good qualities, and I don't think he ever will be, but I do think we're going to see a side to Tyrion that puts him on par with Varys and Littlefinger. I've seen people in the past theorize that Tyrion and Dany exist as POVs in GOT to show the audience how the villain became a villain in the first place. Only time will tell if that's true, but either way, I suspect we haven't seen the last of Tyrion's dark side. 

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Jaime.......i think he is really one of the most interesting AND complicated Persons in the whole Series and his Arc in ADwD is, in my opinion, one of the most believable. Just his solution of the Raventree/Bracken Situation shows that he is not the Person the Realm thinks he is.

Stannis.....i too liked the Stannis chapters the most when he was in dire need (blackwater etc)......my favourite chapter being "the sacrifice" its such a hard read and i cant really imagine being in such a situation, not refering to stannis but the followers...think Stannis, at that moment, not nearly felt the hardship his host had to endure.....did not really make him my favourite....though i like him anyway...

Same with Tyrion, i loved his "Slave-Chapters" (thought this was really a wasted opportunity in the show....he got away to lightly, i would have loved to see this really played out....yes he got beaten and so on but in the books it was way more desperate)

edit:

I definetly can compare Tyrion to Tywin in terms of cunning/political intrigue and so on but there is one big difference i think, Tyrion does have compassion...something Tywin seems to be totally lacking.....i did not see a single sentence where Tywin puts anything in front of his/his family's gains....he is way more ruthless then Tyrion

Tyrion is ruthless too...no question but at least he seems to has a conscience.....Tywin is only gain...nothing more

 

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His chapters were a hard read for me. A really arrogant character who is always looking down on everyone. The only people he doesn't tear apart are the crippled and the broken aka the ones he can pity as they are below himself. There is really no one he respects and the character reminds me of some wiseass teenager. And it doesn't help that he is always portrayed to be right.

 

Having said that, I started to like him in ADWD because he was an utter mess. Finally the wiseass wasn't the smartest man on the planet.

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I'm with @HaeSuse, Tyrion is also my favorite character, hands down.  I am a good guys wear white hats type of person.   Tyrion's ability to manipulate conversations, find hidden truth and just live with abandon are only some of the things I appreciate about the character.   That said, if Tyrion was a white hat, I would just have 4 characters to root for instead of 3.  At his darkest and lowest, in ADWD, drunk, befouled, disillusioned, guilt ridden, self loathing, doubtful and frightened Tyrion is still fast on his feet.  I can argue killing the singer and pretty much everything you can throw out because I get it with Tyrion.   Not everyone does, but there are people who get Little Finger, too, and that is Mars to me.    I was getting pretty tired of all his pathetic lost ADWD stuff then Penny comes along and this old drunk enjoys performing summersaults, making the sailors smile and to make Penny happy.   He's remarkably tender with Penny.   Despite the later smack and suspecting she's terminal.   He still takes care of the little girl and Jorah.   He signs his life away (not that he has anything at all of value), to join the sell swords, but he makes sure to secure places for Penny and Jorah as well.   Penny is a lot like Sansa and she needs a dose of realism and Jorah is a lot like the wights, just walking dead, broken.  Tyrion was meant to lead.   What competent leader is innocent?   In a story rife with Greyjoys, Boltons, Baelish, Bowen, Tywin, Cersei and Gregor Clegane Tyrion's compassion and real intelligence shine. 

It's not hard to find fault with a character alien to your own.   Ask me about Cat.  Sometimes all that gets me through the characters and their ambitions in this tale are the very few sweet moments.

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