Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[zandru]

8 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But, each to his own. I personally draw a heavy line between Tyrion's actions being "understandable" and Tyrion's actions being "justifiable".

Sure. Sounds understandable to me.

[HaeSuse]

4 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Hmmmm... I could have sworn I was being logical. 

And I'm going to be even more logical and maintain that your scenario above has no textual support, so it kinda falls flat as an example. It's pretty clear from the text why Tyrion killed her.

And you didn't address the other examples I gave of lack of compassion by Tyrion (other examples toward Shae, toward Masha Heddle the innkeeper) and Sweetsunray's example of Tyrion's bitter thoughts toward Benjen Stark, who had the effrontery to offer Tyrion a fur blanket to keep warm.

Tyrion's selfishness and self-centeredness isn't limited to Shae.

But, each to his own. I personally draw a heavy line between Tyrion's actions being "understandable" and Tyrion's actions being "justifiable". Other people don't. That's their (and my) prerogative. 

Do you not believe that Shae was intelligent enough to know how dangerous the game she played was?

 

And to the other examples... (I know you've chosen to ignore my posts, and are responding to zandru).... A cold shoulder to the dead isn't so bad in the grand scheme of things, is it? Should he have dismounted, and said a prayer over her corpse? Bitter thoughts toward a house that has always been your rival? Sounds more like a napoleon/little-man complex, than a slight on his honor or compassion. And other things toward Shae? Again, she was playing a game, he was playing a game.

 

Should Tyrion have been shortened by a head, are you claiming we should applaud Shae for her ability to win at her game? Congratulate her on landing in a "real" Lannister's bed, instead of her "Giant of Lannister's" bed? Lend her a shoulder to cry on when she reflects on her lies in court? She is as gray as Tyrion is, and their story is horribly intertwined. She killed him. He killed her. He just happened to have a Jamie Lannister to save him, and she did not.

Much love. I agree 100% with your assessment that he is understandable, but at times unforgivable. And I hope his arc points upwards, not down.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2017-06-27 at 9:30 PM, Lucius Lovejoy said:

@Sigella you are brave starting this post lol.  I find Tyrion amusing in ACOK and ASOS and mostly annoying in the other books.  I would not like him as a person in real life, and consider him as morally reprehensible as Cersei.  I can empathize with how he is a product of his environment and may have turned out differently in a loving family, and I hope he finds some form of redemption like Jaime.

Wtf how is Tyrion as bad as cersei. Cersei literally beat kids and have people tortured for no reason at all.

[Makk]

Tyrion is not a saint (although he does have plenty of good points) but of course being a good person doesn't have anything to do with being a good character. His life has shaped him to be the person he is. I love reading his chapters, even those at his lowest point, for his wit and perception. My biggest real criticism of his character is actually the fact he was made into a warrior in ACOK, I don't think he should have been effective in battle.

I'm not going to get into this in depth, Haesuse has already said anything I might have much more eloquently and I mostly agree with what he said.

[Tianzi]

8 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

1) The way he treated Sansa during their marriage. 

2) His feelings toward Tysha.

3) The way he treats Penny.

That's a 'being a decent person'. Not very common in Westeros, but not above 99% of the people either.

8 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

4) His lack of feeling that "women should be in the kitchen, barefoot, pregnant, silent".

The women of his stance don't sit in the kitchen or go barefoot anyway. They have the decorative/marriageable role - and Tyrion does go along with that. They are people and capable of actions of his own - Tyrion sees that, but that makes him just a person with a brain.

He's actually surprised by his own thought that Cersei might not automatically support Tommen's rights over Myrcella's just because the former is a boy. (I'm not bringing his 'oh Cersei, aren't you mad that you don't have a cock' inner gloating, because they're going to be dismissed as 'but this is Cersei!'). He is a product of a culture where women are submissive to men and it prevails.

8 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

6) Even the way he treats his whores is wholly different and more compassionate than the way other men do. (aside from murdering Shae, of course).

And his actions in Essos.

I will agree, his treatment of whores is even exceptional, it's clear that he interacts with those who want to have him (for his purse of course, but still), or with those treating prostitution as a respectable profession, not Jeyne Pooles.

Still,

a) whores are the group of people who treat him the best, so it's not like it's really born from his respect to women. Actually a lot of his kindness to women is quite mercenary too, hoping to win their favours, opening their legs and a smile.

b( He treats Shae like he owns her, with slapping her or trying to put her on unwanted position in the castle - while being deluded he's in a romantic relationship with her. His relationship with Bronn for example is much more respectful. And I can sooner excuse him slapping and losing his patience to Penny, when they're in a life-threatening situations and he needs her to be an adult, that this "oh I will abuse you so we can be together!" bs to Shae.

Ah, and what does ultimately trigger him to kill her? The 'Lannister giant' comment', the revelation that she was - surprise! - a whore all the time.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm with the Ned's Little Girl. I think Tyrion is capable of goodness. He wants to be good and in his mind he thinks of himself as the "good guy". But simultaneously is enormously resentful of people when they don't "reward" him for it.

Without Tyrion, despite all the wildfire, Cersei would have fucked up the defense of KL and Tywin could never have surprised KL. But he expects Cersei to be grateful to him and Tywin to reward him by letting him stay on as Hand - Cersei who doesn't have an ounce of love in her bones and Tywin who never intended to let Tyrion keep on being the Hand, once Tywin's time in the field was done. He was being the "good guy" for the wrong people. He helps an abominable person who he knows is a fraud like Joffrey stay on the throne. He uses a treaty party to free Jaime masked under the pretense of returning Ned's bones, without the ancestral sword.

He tells Sansa he'll send her home, yet doesn't. No, instead he marries her, and keeps it secret from her until an hour before her marriage, WHILE informing Shae long before of it. That's just, in one word, twisted. He endangers Shae AND Sansa by making her Sansa's handmaid, just so he could fuck her, despite already one innocent whore having been lashed for his unwillingness and inability to let go of Shae out of spite against his father. He doesn't take Shae to KL for Shae, but to spite his father. He's using Shae, because she gratifies his ego.

Tyrion isn't kind to Sansa out of empathy for her. He pretends to be kind to her in the hope she'll eventually give him what he wants from her. He wants her to reward him with sex for not forcing himself onto her. That's twisted. We know this, because he resents her mightily for not sleeping with him. He betrayed his promise to send her to her family, by marrying her just so he could be lord of WF. And he never ever truly admits this about himself. And then hates her for running away and leaving him by himself to deal with being accused of Joffrey's murder. His kindness is not genuine, but pretense to get into her panties. And no, comparing his choices and actions to monsters such as Ramsay, Cersei or the Mountain does not make him a good person. It just doesn't make him a monster.

Tysha? Even if Tysha was a whore, he saw her being raped by a whole garrison and himself. Ok, so he was very young, and the trauma could have skewed his perception at the time. But he's effing 27 when he learns from Jaime that Tysha being a whore was a lie. And only then does he regard what happened and what he did as "rape". So, for 14 years, well after he became an adult, not once did Tyrion consider what was obviously a gang-rape of Tysha as wrong, but something she deserved. It wasn't "rape" in his mind as long as she was a whore. And we see this again when he rapes the slave at Selhorys.

Catelyn? He knows or suspects that Bran didn't just fall from that tower from the get go. He slaps Joffrey for not pretending to be sympathetic to the Starks over it. But oh my, if the distraught mother, who also saved that same son while in a coma from an assassin with a dagger, suspects him of being behind it, he's just a mean, petty, spiteful guy talking crass to her. Her wounds are still healing on her hands.  

And that pettiness of him is often there without any actual reason. Can anyone explain to me what Benjen ever did to Tyrion? But for some reason Tyrion hopes Benjen suffers and regrets lending Tyrion his bearskin. WTF is that about?

There is only one period where I actually sort of like Tyrion and that's on the Shy Maid. It's the sole time he overcomes his pettiness, because he genuinely starts to like the people on the boat, and he doesn't mind walking around in makeshift motley or having them laugh at his carthweels. He's still cunning and snarky at times, but without resentment. It's no coincidence imo that he calls himself Hugor Hill then - he's genuinely a good person, without expecting a cookie for his good behavior. Penny's grief over her brother is also the first time he acknowledges how innocent people are getting killed partly because of him. By killing Tywin he gave Cersei free reign to make the decree of a lordhship for any murderer who brigns her Tyrion's head.

So, overall, while in many ways Tyrion is even more dark in aDwD, I actually like him best aDwD, because he's isn't such a self-deluded hypocrite anymore.

 

This is a terrific analysis. The only part I disagree with is Cat accusing him of murder. I think Tyrion's anger had more to do with knowing that he was being framed for something his brother and sister had done than with Cat and the Starks themselves. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Both Jaime and Tyrion are some of the most divisive and complex characters in the series. I love they're gradually becoming more like the other. Tyrion is the goodish Lannister who slowly becomes more darker character while Jaime is the bad Lannister who is coming lighter in his quest for redemption.

Already killed his father and already planning to finish the rest of the family.

Tyrion and probably Dany are two character who started the series as heroes but will end the series as villains. Or at least that is how I see their character arcs going.

I would honestly love it if Jaime became the "good" brother. It would be such great storytelling if, like you suggested, Tyrion and Jaime ended the series the way the other started. 

[Tianzi]

3 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

5) Really? "I'm willing if she is?" This is something that would even go unnoticed today, in real Earth life. Matter of fact, more so, than medieval times. Go to a bar. You'll hear it, or something similar 1000 times a night. Is it okay? That's up to each individual. But to claim that a man shouldn't make explicit jokes with women, is backwards and insane.

Not really, at least if the woman in question isn't close to you, obviously interested in you or, well, is someone's wife.

Chastity-obsessed Westeros? Talking this way to a highborn lady? Please.

2 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

It's no different than Dany offering safe passage for that one dude, then threatening him with Dragons. Or "buying" unsullied with a dragon, and then burning the sellers alive, and taking everything, and leaving them nothing. Or burning the HotD. Or killing a master for each dead child she found. Or considering herself "compassionate" for "saving a few women from rape", after her Khalesar murdered, mutilated, ravaged and razed an entire city of lamb-men. She is compassionate.... as long as you allow for her circumstances, her situation, the era, the people, and the relative comparison to others around her.

Both Tyrion and Dany are assholes more often than it's necessary and their 'compassionate' acts sometimes boil down to 'I want to feel good about myself and have people smile at me.'

[Lucius Lovejoy]

59 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Wtf how is Tyrion as bad as cersei. Cersei literally beat kids and have people tortured for no reason at all.

Both are hateful, self-righteous, arrogant, jealous, alcoholic, murderous, rapers... I believe Tyrion will redeem himself while Cersei will only get worse, but right now I see them fairly on par.  The only thing that could possibly elevate Tyrion for me is he never gave anyone over to Pycelle's experiments.  Cersei wanted to and couldn't rein Joffrey in and I do believe she genuinely wanted to and was distressed about his abuses, but since she didn't have a POV till AFFC we will never know.  Either way, I don't mean to be contentious, just stating my opinion.  It can be argued Tyrion has had much more formative distress to cause him to be this way, and that he is generally better intended than Cersei, but solely by actions they are both pretty terrible.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

Since any other husband would have demanded her maidenhead.

Actually that is a false assertion. Most men would wait until their wife is older. The books mention how girls as young as Sansa may end up being married to an older man, but that the consummation of it is actually postponed until she's older... and for very good reasons. The risk of childbirth mortality is enormous with a girl that young, because she's not yet fully developed physically - hips not yet wide enough. Plenty of marriages in real history at the age of 13-14 within the highest ranks of the nobility, but the first child is often not reported to being born until the girl is about 17, and thus the actual consummation was postponed until around 16-17 years old.

So, no, both historcally and according to the books MOST husbands would wait several years before actually bedding Sansa. It's just Tywin who wants to force the consummation. That's because Tywin doesn't care whether Sansa lives or dies in childbirth. In fact, he likely prefers Sansa to die soon. All he needs is Tyrion with a trueborn child from a Stark.

[zandru]

It sure seems to me that the list of horribles that supposedly make Tyrion a bad, bad man are either marshmallows or things the 21st century now deplores. If this is the best that can be done, put me solidly on the side of the little guy. Although, as noted, I can see he's got plenty of room for improvement - and he seems to be doing so. And - in comparison with the rest of society, he's well above average already.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The only part I disagree with is Cat accusing him of murder. I think Tyrion's anger had more to do with knowing that he was being framed for something his brother and sister had done than with Cat and the Starks themselves.

That would work, if he wasn't gloating at the corpse of Masha Heddle hanging from a tree. She was the innkeep of the Crossroads where Catelyn apprehended him. He resents this woman for not stopping Catelyn and the sellswords and knights in apprehending Tyrion and for being a bowing commoner to Cat and is gleeful that his father hanged her.

That's complete irrational joy over someone's death who never had the means nor the power to do anything. If he can feel that type of hatred and resentment to an innkeep without any power, then I find it hard to argue that he empathizes with Cat at all.

Some of his hatred and resentment is understandable, and in a few cases totally justifiable, but George put his resentful thoughts towards Benjen, his glee over Masha's hanging corpse, the joy over Symon Silvertongue ending up as Singer's stew, his resentment towards Sansa in aSoS and later in aDwD, the rape of the slave in the books, and the stuff he says to Illyrio's personnel (such as the bedwarmer, the washerwoman and the cooks) to remind us that Tyrion has a deep contempt for people for no other reason than to exist. Is it that they are "tall"? No idea.

Penny is actually the very first human being, a commoner, he is empathic towards (and I don't mind his annoyance with Penny at times, especially under stress, and because he does at least try to bite his tongue before actually hurting her). And it may actually be, exactly because he can identify with her more because of her dwarfism, even though she's a woman and a commoner. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually that is a false assertion. Most men would wait until their wife is older. The books mention how girls as young as Sansa may end up being married to an older man, but that the consummation of it is actually postponed until she's older... and for very good reasons. The risk of childbirth mortality is enormous with a girl that young, because she's not yet fully developed physically - hips not yet wide enough. Plenty of marriages in real history at the age of 13-14 within the highest ranks of the nobility, but the first child is often not reported to being born until the girl is about 17, and thus the actual consummation was postponed until around 16-17 years old.

So, no, both historcally and according to the books MOST husbands would wait several years before actually bedding Sansa. It's just Tywin who wants to force the consummation. That's because Tywin doesn't care whether Sansa lives or dies in childbirth. In fact, he likely prefers Sansa to die soon. All he needs is Tyrion with a trueborn child from a Stark.

This is the main reason why I don't believe the theory that Tywin was in on the Purple Wedding. He wasn't going to do anything to Tyrion until Sansa had a son. 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Penny is actually the very first human being, a commoner, he is empathic towards (and I don't mind his annoyance with Penny at times, especially under stress, and because he does at least try to bite his tongue before actually hurting her). And it may actually be, exactly because he can identify with her more because of her dwarfism, even though she's a woman and a commoner. 

Find a Penny, pick it up...

She could be the first penny he honestly earns?

I wonder if Penny is her real name?

Tyrion is not only capable of goodness (which is almost universal) but greatness (which isn't). His errors, lapses in judgement, high crimes, and misdemeanors are so dreadful because he is in a position to empathize with outsiders and highborn alike when he chooses to do so and looks beyond his own interests and entitlements and he is smart enough and experienced enough to know better. I think an interesting study could be made contrasting Tyrion and Dany in this- Dany's errors being grander in scope and body count but being perhaps more excusable due to her relative inexperience.

Anyways, I like them both. I like almost all of the PoV characters, despite their flaws.

 

[Lord Wraith]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I would honestly love it if Jaime became the "good" brother. It would be such great storytelling if, like you suggested, Tyrion and Jaime ended the series the way the other started. 

I would too. Also there is no amount of PR that is going to get most people in Westeros back on Tyrion's side. People have this delusion that he will end up with Casterely Rock and LP of the Westerlands... can't see it happening. Well short of Dany holding everyone at dragon point.

[HaeSuse]

14 hours ago, Tianzi said:

a) whores are the group of people who treat him the best, so it's not like it's really born from his respect to women. Actually a lot of his kindness to women is quite mercenary too, hoping to win their favours, opening their legs and a smile.

 

This only became his manner after the event with Tysha. Remember, he married a common girl. That's not "women are wives", and not "people belong in the social caste". His very first romantic endeavor broke both the whore systems and the caste systems, in one fell swoop. And it is the one thing he thinks of the most, now. Tyrion was broken by his father and brother, and their "sharp lesson". He has a chance to put the pieces back together. 

[HaeSuse]

14 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Not really, at least if the woman in question isn't close to you, obviously interested in you or, well, is someone's wife.

Chastity-obsessed Westeros? Talking this way to a highborn lady? Please.

Both Tyrion and Dany are assholes more often than it's necessary and their 'compassionate' acts sometimes boil down to 'I want to feel good about myself and have people smile at me.'

Have you been to bars? It's been a few years for me, since I got married and made 4 little whelps. But I spent quite a lot of time in them, before that. This would have been considered one of the least offensive or off-putting things said in them. Married or not. And even in the absolute worst light you can shine on it, it's a jape.

[HaeSuse]

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually that is a false assertion. Most men would wait until their wife is older. The books mention how girls as young as Sansa may end up being married to an older man, but that the consummation of it is actually postponed until she's older... and for very good reasons. The risk of childbirth mortality is enormous with a girl that young, because she's not yet fully developed physically - hips not yet wide enough. Plenty of marriages in real history at the age of 13-14 within the highest ranks of the nobility, but the first child is often not reported to being born until the girl is about 17, and thus the actual consummation was postponed until around 16-17 years old.

So, no, both historcally and according to the books MOST husbands would wait several years before actually bedding Sansa. It's just Tywin who wants to force the consummation. That's because Tywin doesn't care whether Sansa lives or dies in childbirth. In fact, he likely prefers Sansa to die soon. All he needs is Tyrion with a trueborn child from a Stark.

No, it doesn't. It does say what you're saying, but it's in reference to girls who haven't flowered yet. Give us quotes. And anyway, Tywin was the one demanding he put a son on her. Not Tyrion. Tyrion objected on multiple occasions. 

 

Henry VII's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort was 14 when she gave birth to him. 

[Amris]

Tyrion started out a hero of sorts (though one with many flaws all of which have already been mentioned on this thread) but still trying to do the right thing.

Like every hero in every story he has to go through a kind of 'death experiece' (literal or methaphorical - in his case: metaphorical), then make a 'journey through the underworld', experiencing many tests there, (some of which the hero in the traditional way of storytelling always fails - just like Tyrion fails some).

The metaphorical death experience Tyrion has to undergo is worse than most: it is Tyrion in SoS first losing his position of hand, being condemned to death in an untterly unfair trial for a murder he is innocent of, the woman he loves turning up as one of the main witnesses against him, lying against him and - to top it of - then finds that same woman in the bed of his personal nemesis - the father he rightly hates but also very much and without success always craved to show him some respect.

After all this Tyrion is nearly mentally destroyed and cast into the Underworld (again metaphorically) more or less in pieces to be reassembled and now encounters a variety of tests, many of which he fails. That he does fail many of these tests he can be rightly criticized for of course. And I see in this thread that this dark part of Tyrion's story is where some fans start to dislike him. But story-wise it is necessary for the completion of his hero's journey and his further development.

The third part of the heroes journey traditionally is the return of the hero from the underworld with some kind of boon he found there and is bringing back to help humanity with. I fully expect Tyrion's journey to include that part too (on GRRM's terms of course which probably means darker and grittier than in some stories, but still). So be consoled: I think its not far-fetched to hope that Tyrion will become more likeable again and more of a force for good than he has been for a while now.

My personal issue with Tyrion is that - for my taste - GRRM has overdone it with the 'hero has to pass many tests on his travel through the underworld' trope. The sheer amount of coincidences and failures that happen to Tyrion after he leaves the River Boat in Sothoris just over-stretch the amount of suspension of disbelief I can muster. Less would have been more here IMO. But that may just be me.

 

[HaeSuse]

I wonder.... How many of the Tyrion detractors have gone through such trials and tribulations themselves. What is the personal story arc of each Tyrion hater, and each Tyrion lover, and each Tyrion "understander" (neither loving nor hating, but getting him, nonetheless). 

 

I'm a lover. He's my favorite, and was from the get go. And I've had a helluva life. Countless trials and tribulations, from as humbling and devastating as the ones Job experienced in the Bible, to as commonplace and understandable as the ones everyone experiences. More near-death experiences than I can remember, without really sitting down and going through them all, giving 100% effort over several hours of dedicated soul wracking. Been behind bars several times. Fathered multiple children. Adopted another. Married. Separated. Divorced. More drunken moronic experiences than I care to recount. Alcoholism. Dealing with being an atheist in a family of devout Christians (all atheists are bastards in their Christian parents' eyes). Deaths everywhere. Suicides galore. Lost two people who I would've called best-friend at the time, to drug overdose and suicide. Estranged siblings. Siblings in prison for multiple years. Cancer in multiple immediate family members. Financial devastation, financial success. A rollercoaster of a life. I've loved it. But, I just wonder. Are most of Tyrion's lovers, folks who, like me, have experienced a lot of ups and downs and arounds? Are most of his haters people who've had a more arrow straight path from point A to point B? (I know that no life is devoid of trials and tribulations. I also know that some are far more so than others).

 

Also, are his haters more religious? Are his lovers less religious? 

These things intrigue me.

 

Here's to you, Giant of Lannister. May your roads be paved and clean, may your trials and tribulations make you grow (not break you down), may your women truly appreciate you, may your wine be strong and red, and may someone, someday, bear you beautiful children you can raise and love! 

 

Slainte!