Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Did I say Tyrion was responsible? Of course not.

 

Gallows humor is what Edd Tollet uses. Tyrion's is not gallows humor. His first reaction is glee. And then he reproaches a corpse.

Yes, he is a cynic, but reproaching a corpse is once again not cynicism.

I call it, blaming other victims with even less power than he had to feel there's some payback for what happened to him. As a coping mechanism it's an UGLY coping mechanism that I have zero respect or sympathy for. Some people cope with shit by beating their partners and children up. It doesn't make me go "aaaaah, show some pity." I certainly do not call it a "likeable trait" or twist it into pretzel logic of evidence of "not being heartless". And there's a straw man in there, for I never claimed that Tyrion is without the ability to be empathic. But he sure often "copes" by withholding empathy from innocent victims. Mentally, Tyrion's one of those people who likes to kick the dog, because someone else kicked him. I find that a despiccable trait in humans. 

I actually cannot tell. Seems to me that because you are horrified by the description that you assume that Tyrion is too, simply for it being in Tyrion's POV. But that goes a step too far in the interpreting. For example Joffrey is a horrible shit in Sansa's POV to Mycah. We are horrified at his behavior as much as Arya is (though it isn't her POV), but all Sansa is doing is crying how they're ruining her pleasant date. Or what about Ser Hugh's death: described in bloody gory horrible detail in Sansa's POV, and yet we are explictly told that she feels nothing. At least Sansa is a child at the start of her teens. Tyrion's a male adult.

Tyrion's words, thoughts and actions do not evidence being horrified at all. What is described is just horrific to us, the readers. It doesn't mean that Tyrion is horrified.

Very, very much. Especially w/ the last paragraph. It never ever felt like Tyrion was horrified by what happened to Masha Heddle, but was almost gloating: "see? That's what happens when you mess w/ the Lannisters. Only he is really good at disguising it as an almost empathetic moment: "all I wanted was a room, poor little me". 

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, giant snake said:

The quote in question doesn't indicate anything other than regret.

(snip)

"Maybe the Gods are just after all" doesn't mean "regret", it means "you deserve this".

 

He is no true knight.

[giant snake]

1 hour ago, ftheking said:

I agree both times. Never crossed my mind that Tywin sought her out on purpose. I took it as "everyone dies in this bloody war". Tyrion doesn't seem gleefull to me, but cynical.

Pretty much my thoughts.  When I think of Catelyn's quote about the "Knights of Summer" (which I can't quote directly because Kindle won't stop updating my books and erasing all of my quotes - the bastards) I think about people like Ned Stark, Bronn, and Tyrion.  For one thing, I get the impression that most of the lords don't have a realistic idea of what a knock down, drag out war is really like.  Sure their Maesters do, but do they listen?  More credit to the Hedge Knight stories too, for showing the effect of picking sides even generations later down the line.  Anyone familiar with Japanese history will see lots of analogies there too.

Tyrion and others may have never fought in a war, but they know from spending more time bouncing between the classes how capricious life and death can be.  I think someone like Bronn, who presumably has fought in dozens of smaller conflicts, has more perspective on someone like Ser Addam Marbrand, who understands battles, ransoms, and sieges, but who doesn't know or care about everything else that war affects.  Even the veterans of Robert's Rebellion have their views colored by their own experiences.  For Victarion, it was about losing a single battle.  For Balon, it was about losing all of his sons.  For Ned, it was always about personal relationships and loss.  Somehow I don't think that it ever became a dirty war (like the Riverlands) except for the sack of King's Landing.

[sweetsunray]

As far as characterization goes, the chapter aGoT Tyrion VII is meant to establish what Tyrion and Tywin have in common, not "poor guy is just a cynic trying to cope with war horrors and filled with regret". That's why Tyrion and Twyin have such an easy gleeful conversation of how many people were killed because nobody is allowed to shed blood of a Lannister with impunity, and Tyrion and Tywin sharing a knowing moment when Tywin smiles gleefully when he learns Robb Stark is south of the Neck. Both are happy to go on a killing spree. Tyrion's response to Masha Heddle's hanged corpse is one of those details that is meant to portray Tyrion and Tywin share the same pettiness.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Tyrion certainly is Tywin's true son (although I personally think Tywin is a far worse person). I actually do wonder if, on an unconscious level, Tywin realizes that Tyrion is the most like him. He confides in him with information that he doesn't reveal to his other children (such as Mace refusing Cersei because she's "too old") and even seems to care about what Tyrion thinks of him. For instance, it always struck me as odd that Tywin was so insistent about not ordering Elia's rape and murder when speaking with Tyrion, even saying something along the lines of "even you wouldn't accuse me of that, I hope." The way I read it, Tyrion is Tywin's intellectual equal, and Tywin both knows and is infuriated by this. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion certainly is Tywin's true son (although I personally think Tywin is a far worse person). I actually do wonder if, on an unconscious level, Tywin realizes that Tyrion is the most like him. He confides in him with information that he doesn't reveal to his other children (such as Mace refusing Cersei because she's "too old") and even seems to care about what Tyrion thinks of him. For instance, it always struck me as odd that Tywin was so insistent about not ordering Elia's rape and murder when speaking with Tyrion, even saying something along the lines of "even you wouldn't accuse me of that, I hope." The way I read it, Tyrion is Tywin's intellectual equal, and Tywin both knows and is infuriated by this. 

I very much agree w/ all, and the bolded in spades. 

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion certainly is Tywin's true son (although I personally think Tywin is a far worse person). 

Tyrion is definitely his fathers son. Tywin wants it to be Jaime because Jaime is the golden prince type, but as always in George's stories, be careful what you wish for 

Now, it seems Tyrion, if he does get a literal or figurative dragon, would not blink an eye to take large scale revenge on a society that mocked him. Penny is Tyrion's moral "coin" and that coin is still flipping and could land on dragon tails. 

The final flip for him could be Tysha. She is Tyrions Jenny of Old Stones. 

(By the way, what was the nickname of Jenny of Old Stones husband ) 

[The Bard of Banefort]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I very much agree w/ all, and the bolded in spades. 

It's something I didn't notice my first time through, that Tywin actually does care about Tyrion's opinion of him. And I think a lot of this boils down to how Tywin is a keenly intelligent man, and Tyrion, being Tywin's equal in this, is one of the few people that understands the weight behind his words and actions. During the ASOS small council scenes, Tywin actually seemed relieved when Tyrion would show up, perhaps because it meant he was among someone of a similar caliber, as opposed to men such as Mace Tyrell and Maester Pycelle.

Tywin wouldn't have stopped talking to Genna for half a year if he didn't think what she said about Tyrion being his true son was the truth. He's known since Tyrion was a boy, and it's been driving him insane ever since. 

Even though Tywin went through with those repulsive show trials, I don't think he truly wanted Tyrion dead. Aside from needing a Lannister heir from Sansa, deep down, I'm sure he realized that Tyrion could still be a great help to him. Not that he'd ever admit as much to himself, of course.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Tyrion is definitely his fathers son. Tywin wants it to be Jaime because Jaime is the golden prince type, but as always in George's stories, be careful what you wish for 

Now, it seems Tyrion, if he does get a literal or figurative dragon, would not blink an eye to take large scale revenge on a society that mocked him. Penny is Tyrion's moral "coin" and that coin is still flipping and could land on dragon tails. 

The final flip for him could be Tysha. She is Tyrions Jenny of Old Stones. 

(By the way, what was the nickname of Jenny of Old Stones husband ) 

Ha, I never noticed the "dragonflies" pun. Very neat.

I have a headcanon that Jaime is "Joanna's son" the same way that Tyrion is Tywin's son. We don't know enough about Joanna as of now for this to be a certainty, but Jaime does have a number of differences that sets him apart from the rest of his family--lack of political ambition, disinterest in prostitutes, tendency to turn a blind eye to his loved one's flaws, feeling at ease among the smallfolk, no signs of alcoholism (which has always been one that's particularly interesting to me). The fact that Joanna appears to him in a vision, and not Cersei or Tyrion, is also something I find very telling. 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's something I didn't notice my first time through, that Tywin actually does care about Tyrion's opinion of him. And I think a lot of this boils down to how Tywin is a keenly intelligent man, and Tyrion, being Tywin's equal in this, is one of the few people that understands the weight behind his words and actions. During the ASOS small council scenes, Tywin actually seemed relieved when Tyrion would show up, perhaps because it meant he was among someone of a similar caliber, as opposed to men such as Mace Tyrell and Maester Pycelle.

Even sending Tyrion to serve as Hand in his place. He wouldn't have done that if he didn't respect Tyrion's intellect and abilities. Of course, being Tywin he'd never admit it! 

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tywin wouldn't have stopped talking to Genna for half a year if he didn't think what she said about Tyrion being his true son was the truth. He's known since Tyrion was a boy, and it's been driving him insane ever since. 

Exactly. Overreaction much? Of course, Genna's observation is spot on. 

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even though Tywin went through with those repulsive show trials, I don't think he truly wanted Tyrion dead. Aside from needing a Lannister heir from Sansa, deep down, I'm sure he realized that Tyrion could still be a great help to him. Not that he'd ever admit as much to himself, of course.

I agree here too. He had to have the trial but his intention was not for Tyrion to be executed. Nor for Tyrion to crossbow him in the gut while taking a shit, but karma is indeed a bitch. 

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ha, I never noticed the "dragonflies" pun. Very neat.

I have a headcanon that Jaime is "Joanna's son" the same way that Tyrion is Tywin's son. We don't know enough about Joanna as of now for this to be a certainty, but Jaime does have a number of differences that sets him apart from the rest of his family--lack of political ambition, disinterest in prostitutes, tendency to turn a blind eye to his loved one's flaws, feeling at ease among the smallfolk, no signs of alcoholism (which has always been one that's particularly interesting to me). The fact that Joanna appears to him in a vision, and not Cersei or Tyrion, is also something I find very telling. 

Interesting, I had never thought about this! I like it. Jaime is so different from the main Lannisters we know... Then again, Jaime is my favourite character, and Tywin, Tyrion and Cersei are among my least favourite, w/ Tywin being THE least favourite of ALL the characters in all the novels.

And I hope we'll get to learn more about Joanna, even if I don't think ithats very likely to happen. She seems interesting, and definitely the "better half" of the couple. 

[giant snake]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As far as characterization goes, the chapter aGoT Tyrion VII is meant to establish what Tyrion and Tywin have in common, not "poor guy is just a cynic trying to cope with war horrors and filled with regret". That's why Tyrion and Twyin have such an easy gleeful conversation of how many people were killed because nobody is allowed to shed blood of a Lannister with impunity, and Tyrion and Tywin sharing a knowing moment when Tywin smiles gleefully when he learns Robb Stark is south of the Neck. Both are happy to go on a killing spree. Tyrion's response to Masha Heddle's hanged corpse is one of those details that is meant to portray Tyrion and Tywin share the same pettiness.

That's ridiculous.  Until the middle and end of book 3, Tyrion is on the side of the Lannister family.  Killing enemy without them being able to retaliate isn't a petty matter.  There's nothing about Tyrion or even Tywin to indicate that they use any tactics they do because they think it's unnecessary or for personal satisfaction.  They are different with what they consider acceptable.  We see example after example of Tyrion having humanity towards people who have no choice or no ability to defend themselves.  When the "antler men" are exposed, it's regrettable to Tyrion because they picked the wrong side and because it deprives his side of a valuable resource.  He understands that people die in wars, especially when they try to secretly support the other side, so he isn't going to lose any sleep over it, but that's not some sort of evil hands rubbing behavior.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, giant snake said:

That's ridiculous.  Until the middle and end of book 3, Tyrion is on the side of the Lannister family.  Killing enemy without them being able to retaliate isn't a petty matter.  There's nothing about Tyrion or even Tywin to indicate that they use any tactics they do because they think it's unnecessary or for personal satisfaction.  They are different with what they consider acceptable.  

Here's the petty glee... Tywin is happy that Robb Stark decided to move into the Riverlands, so he could start his "butcher's work" on Robb. Tywin looks forward to butcher's work. He's satsified and pleased that a boy is just giving him more butcher's work. (and yes, "butcher's work" is a phrase that Tywin and Tryion quip about between one another)

Quote

Lord Tywin Lannister did not smile. Lord Tywin never smiled, but Tyrion had learned to read his father's pleasure all the same, and it was there on his face. "So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions," he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. "Splendid.[..."

Why is it petty - because Tywin attacks and kills anything and everyone except actually the one who kidnapped him AND who tried to kill Tyrion.

And I have every right to think ill of both of them for it. When we are to judge a character, George actually does not want to turn ourselves into feudal society defenders. The whole "war is a gruesome thing" is a nonsense argument when judging how much a character is looking forward to go to war. Killing a whole region of peasants and farmers, because a woman arrested your son for what he might have done wrong IS WRONG.

Do you really believe that George writes realistic war horrors to make guys like Tywin defensible characters? To make Tyrion who has chemistry with Tywin when the two quip lightly amongst each other over it? Hell no! He writes it realistically to show us this is not a type fo society to romanticise, nor to admire.

And we know that because George declared himself that the war mongerers (and that certainly includes Tywin and Tyrion for seeking to war monger on the people of the Vale) are the real monsters. We know this because George himself calls Tyrion a villain, and not just because Tyrion raped a bedslave.

Alligators are different. They have the perfect excuse to be ruthless meaet snapping beasts. They're a different species. Living in a different society doesn't make humans a different species. And both in feudal societies as in a modern war area people who kill a whole bunch of people for what they deem an "offense" while it was actually done in the pursuit of justice and show satisfaction at the prospect to kill even more people are ugly and rotten to the chore as a character.

Quote

We see example after example of Tyrion having humanity towards people who have no choice or no ability to defend themselves.  When the "antler men" are exposed, it's regrettable to Tyrion because they picked the wrong side and because it deprives his side of a valuable resource.  

And you ignore the examples when he does not show humanity towards people who have no choice or no ability to defend themselves.

Quote

He understands that people die in wars, especially when they try to secretly support the other side, so he isn't going to lose any sleep over it, but that's not some sort of evil hands rubbing behavior.

Well it certainly is in the chapter I referred to.

[giant snake]

It's not about ignoring anything.  Seeing as how we can literally read the minds of the main characters, I would say that almost all of these presumptions about unsavory emotional motivations that they supposedly have are just silly edgelord shitposting.

If I thought GRRM was actually trying to beat the reader over the head with what we are 'supposed to think' then I wouldn't read his books.  When creators try to make their works relevant they usually make them suck.

[inappropriate discussion deleted]

Tyrion has the potential to be great but he is as held back by thinking with his stomach and his dick almost as much as he is held back by his height.  If GRRM called him a villain a long time ago, so what?  He mixed up Renley's eye color once and he obviously fired his editor after ACoK.  Maybe Tyrion is the villain because he is the one on the wrong side?  Maybe it's because he already knew that he would end up with Dany and she is the villain?  Maybe GRRM just likes to troll people (this is what is most likely).

[giant snake]

Alrite granted.  He is becoming darker as the series progresses and what he did was probably his lowest point.  Still doesn't make sense to apply this all to him retroactively.

[Lord Freypie]

Personnally I love book Tyrion precisely because he's unperfect, arguably even evil at times, while being one of the most moral character of the serie in his good days. Perhaps the most truly grey character in the entire serie, when most are finally rather black or white, He offers a fascinating mix of good and bad impulses, self loathing and self victimization, ambition, vengefulness, desire to right true wrongs or just to be let in peace.

He's for me one of the 2 or 3 best litterary character GRRM developped, and one of the rare offering real suspense about how he will evolve and end (I think there's no character who made people imagine so different endings for him, from those thinking he will be the just Hand or King allowing the 7K to recover in the end, to those seing him become a new Littlefinger manipulating people and starting new wars to achieve revenge, those who think he will find Tysha and peace at some point, or who just see more suffering and a gruesome death in his future).

And one I tend to root for, despite completely recognizing he's done and is probably going to do again some awful things. I want to see him come back to power, be it just to see how he'll use it and what next step of his evolution it will bring.

He's also one of the main reasons I can't stand the show. Seing such a complex character being reduced to a whiter than white Mary Sue with as only opposed traits being boringly perfect and a tendancy to make dick jokes  just ruined it for me.

[sweetsunray]

On 2017-7-12 at 1:27 AM, giant snake said:

 Seeing as how we can literally read the minds of the main characters, I would say that almost all of these presumptions about unsavory emotional motivations that they supposedly have are just silly edgelord shitposting.

Well actually, that chapter is full of chuckle-chuckle thoughts of Tyrion while admiring Tywin, etc, in his own POV. And yes you're ignoring it, calling it the opposite of what it is. 

You say "we can read their minds"... Well it's Tyrion's mind that I dislike in aGoT and aSoS and part of aDwD. The only time I find his mind ever likeable is on the Shy Maid.

And no, I'm not posting edgelord stuff at all when I say that particular chapter is meant to make us see that Tywin and Tyrion have something in common, and do understand one another when it comes to destroying whole regions and families just because one had the gall to arrest a Lannister. It's not edgelord to say that Tyrion is more Tywin's "son" than Jaime is. The majority of readers agree with that. Genna Lannister agrees with that. Tyrion is emotionally and mentally capable of going Rains of Castamere. Is this not his intention when he visits the many clans and toally intends to go Rambo with them on the Vale?

[now-deleted quoted content removed]

Tyrion's base desires are more than just wine and fucking... it is a base ego desire to make other people suffer, to hurt them, to make them fear him, to force them to do what disgusts them... because he hates and loathes himself. It is a base mental development: hurt others because he's hurting. It's not uncommon (unfortunately), not just human world, but the mammal world. It is the definition of pettiness - "Somebody picks on me/picked on me? Now I make others, weaker than I, pay for it." Tyrion's thoughts and half of his actions or goals are no different than a monkey who got slapped by the dominant male and in frustration steals the banana of a monkey lower in status than him.

On 2017-7-12 at 1:27 AM, giant snake said:

 If GRRM called him a villain a long time ago, so what?  He mixed up Renley's eye color once and he obviously fired his editor after ACoK.  Maybe Tyrion is the villain because he is the one on the wrong side?  Maybe it's because he already knew that he would end up with Dany and she is the villain?  Maybe GRRM just likes to troll people (this is what is most likely).

Now that is denial.

[sweetsunray]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:49 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even though Tywin went through with those repulsive show trials, I don't think he truly wanted Tyrion dead.

Agreed. Many readers (like Tyrion) assume that Tywin lied when he said to Tyrion there was no need for the crossbow. He says he will still give him a choice to live and will not execute him. But he needed Mance to agree with it.

Tyrion assumes it's a lie, but after his death, one of the first things that Mace does is happily inform Cersei that Garth the Gross is on his way to Oldtown for a ship to take the position of "master of coin" - something that Tywin agreed to. Of course Cersei knows shit and she doesn't want another Tyrell on the council,so she says "she already asked Rosby to be the master of coin. Mace is flabbergasted and surprised. Garth's on his way already.

It's not confirmed, but it seems the latter shows that Tywin and Mace made some deal on something. Tywin's not gonna give Tyrion's former position to a Tyrell without getting something for it in return. Me personally, I think Tywin was telling the truth - he had no intention of executing Tyrion. If there's one thing that Tywin did not want to do, it was "kinslaying",no matter how much he hated Tyrion. No matter how cruel and callous that man is, he couldn't bring himself to that. He probably did want to make a show of it though: have Tyrion be led to his place of execution and then offer him to take the black at the last instance. He'd avoid kinslaying and show the people that he could "forgive".

2 hours ago, Lord Freypie said:

He offers a fascinating mix of good and bad impulses, self loathing and self victimization, ambition, vengefulness, desire to right true wrongs or just to be let in peace.

He's for me one of the 2 or 3 best litterary character GRRM developped, and one of the rare offering real suspense about how he will evolve and end

Agreed.

I don't like him, but I do think he's genially written.  

[sweetsunray]

The last time a popular character poll was held 2 years ago on this forum, Tyrion was not #1, did not even make it in the top 3. Furthermore, plenty of people are able to like Tyrion without denying he is petty, without minimizing or excusing rape. Some like him exactly, because he of these thing. Yes, he is one of George's favourite characters "to write", and still he calls him one of the villains. People can love to read a characer's POV and laugh at his cynicism without considering him a "good person".

[discussion of now-deleted material removed]

[Joy Hill]

From a moral point of view, I find Tyrion neither better nor worse than other prominent grey characters (Arya, Dany, Sandor. . .).

On 10/7/2017 at 11:19 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion certainly is Tywin's true son (although I personally think Tywin is a far worse person). I actually do wonder if, on an unconscious level, Tywin realizes that Tyrion is the most like him. He confides in him with information that he doesn't reveal to his other children (such as Mace refusing Cersei because she's "too old") and even seems to care about what Tyrion thinks of him. For instance, it always struck me as odd that Tywin was so insistent about not ordering Elia's rape and murder when speaking with Tyrion, even saying something along the lines of "even you wouldn't accuse me of that, I hope." The way I read it, Tyrion is Tywin's intellectual equal, and Tywin both knows and is infuriated by this. 

On 10/7/2017 at 11:49 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's something I didn't notice my first time through, that Tywin actually does care about Tyrion's opinion of him. And I think a lot of this boils down to how Tywin is a keenly intelligent man, and Tyrion, being Tywin's equal in this, is one of the few people that understands the weight behind his words and actions. During the ASOS small council scenes, Tywin actually seemed relieved when Tyrion would show up, perhaps because it meant he was among someone of a similar caliber, as opposed to men such as Mace Tyrell and Maester Pycelle.

Tywin wouldn't have stopped talking to Genna for half a year if he didn't think what she said about Tyrion being his true son was the truth. He's known since Tyrion was a boy, and it's been driving him insane ever since. 

Even though Tywin went through with those repulsive show trials, I don't think he truly wanted Tyrion dead. Aside from needing a Lannister heir from Sansa, deep down, I'm sure he realized that Tyrion could still be a great help to him. Not that he'd ever admit as much to himself, of course.

Ha, I never noticed the "dragonflies" pun. Very neat.

I have a headcanon that Jaime is "Joanna's son" the same way that Tyrion is Tywin's son. We don't know enough about Joanna as of now for this to be a certainty, but Jaime does have a number of differences that sets him apart from the rest of his family--lack of political ambition, disinterest in prostitutes, tendency to turn a blind eye to his loved one's flaws, feeling at ease among the smallfolk, no signs of alcoholism (which has always been one that's particularly interesting to me). The fact that Joanna appears to him in a vision, and not Cersei or Tyrion, is also something I find very telling. 

 

 

Jaime resembling Joanna is also my head canon (although I also think there's a bit of his grandgrandma Rohanne Webber in him). I think it's also a reason why Tywin liked him most out of his children. I believe deep down Tywin was very insecure, hence his inability to stomach a dwarf son who shared a lot of his traits.

In the one conversation we see between Tywin and Jaime, it's clear that these two do not listen to each other at all. Their desires, values and world views are so dissimilar, and they can't put themselves in each other's shoes. On the other hand, Tywin and Tyrion, despite their difficult relationship and Tyrion's occasional distaste for his father's actions, are almost always on the same page. Tywin and Jaime are not even in the same book.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 6/28/2017 at 4:50 AM, Sigella said:

 

The thing that stands out to me there is how gleefully he told Cat (in front of her escort) about Littlefingers boastings regarding her virginity, in unnecessary detail. 

Thing is, he hasn't become any better, rather the opposite. His treatment of women has totally unravelled since he murdred Shae. 

 

On 6/28/2017 at 5:07 AM, Ser Frasier of House Crane said:

Tyrion is a douche, albeit a very entertaining one and with some obvious background that excuses a lot of what he does and says. The show has done a great job of smoothing out his flaws and just making him a snark machine with cool quips, but Book!Tyrion is pretty prickly, and he becomes intolerable once he gets to Essos.

  I used to like Tyrion, however I agree with all of these. He is disadvantaged compared to his siblings, but is quite advantaged compared to most people. He is basically a spoiled prick (who makes me laugh). And his treatment of women is just awful. His rape of the slave girl is basically unforgivable in my eyes. He reached all new lows when he first threatened the girl at Illyrio's mance and then again in that whore house. I still like his chapters, and he is a gray character, so I like parts of him, but his treatment of women has really lowered his standing in my eyes.

[Sigella]

10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

  I used to like Tyrion, however I agree with all of these. He is disadvantaged compared to his siblings, but is quite advantaged compared to most people. He is basically a spoiled prick (who makes me laugh). And his treatment of women is just awful. His rape of the slave girl is basically unforgivable in my eyes. He reached all new lows when he first threatened the girl at Illyrio's mance and then again in that whore house. I still like his chapters, and he is a gray character, so I like parts of him, but his treatment of women has really lowered his standing in my eyes.

Never forget his unbrotherly remarks on Cersei. I totally get him not being ok with the way she treats him and the abuse she did as child and all, but there are a lot of options to revenge-fantasies and he chooses rape.