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Disliking Tyrion Lannister


Sigella

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1 hour ago, TheSeason said:

Tyrion is fully capable of rape. He's done it at least three times already--once with the "wife" he claimed to "love" (and proceeded to victim blame, as if she deserved to be gang-raped for being a gold-digger and a whore; and when he learns that she was "innocent" all along, he still proceeds to call her a whore--despite murdering his father for the same--and only seeks her out as means to alleviate his own guilt and convince himself that he suffered just as much as she did). I don't doubt that he eventually could have raped Sansa (giving him enough time, he'd either get drunk enough or angry enough or feel humiliated enough to do it), his second child-bride (in his bigamist marriage, too). Tyrion enjoys raping women--to take back the power in a relationship and satisfy his insecurities and feelings of humiliation, same as his father--and fantasizes about doing it. And Tyrion feels plenty humiliated by Sansa (and for her sake). 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tyrion explicitly stated his father forced him to watch Tysha be gang raped and then forced him to rape her himself. How in the world does that make him the culprit there? If someone holds a gun to your head & is going to kill you if you do not have sex with someone & you do it, are you a rapist? He raped 2 slave girls, yes. He did not rape Tysha. He was a victim here. Not to the degree Tysha was but still a victim. I don't remember ever reading anything that implied Tyrion thought Tysha deserved it & surely you are not using the "Wherever whores go" as evidence that Tyrion still calls her a whore even after he knows she is innocent?! Come on really? That is absolutely not why he is saying that. It's written to show his obsession with what Tywin said, his inability to make any use of the information "wherever whores go" in finding Tysha. You don't have any idea why he is seeking her out. It definitely isn't ever stated that it's to alleviate his guilt or convince himself he suffered as much as he did. He has suffered. Period. It doesn't take from Tysha's suffering to say Tyrion suffered as well. 

 

1 hour ago, TheSeason said:

Tyrion is lying to himself here when he says he could not have harmed Tommen (whipped him or worse). He would have done it. Because "If [he didn't], Cersei wins," and he could not stand to lose to Cersei in this (who he despises so much he wants to rape her to bring her back down to size for making him feel small and unloved and humiliated all throughout his life). That's why it was a "relief" that he did not have possession of Tommen any longer. If he had, he would have talked himself into going through with it (just as he will eventually work up the courage to rape Sansa, provided she did not escape from him). Tyrion cannot stand to lose (especially not to Cersei) or to be humiliated (especially not by Cersei or Tywin), and he cannot stand the revulsion of women, in particular, so Sansa was caught in a lose-lose situation. With Tywin (who is just like Tyrion) urging him to be a man and rape Sansa, get her with child, and steal her birthright already because it's all he's going to get--no Casterly Rock!--all the pieces were in place for this rape to happen (just as Tyrion gave in to Tywin's urging to rape Tysha to avenge himself upon her and take back his power and restore the honor of House Lannister of Casterly Rock). 

We could argue back & forth all day about what Tyrion could have, or would have done but the fact of the matter is he didn't do it. You cannot blame things on him he didn't even do. He didn't ever harm Tommen. He never had any interaction with Tommen that was anything but friendly & he didn't rape Sansa. You don't think he should pat himself on the back for that & that's fine but how can you turn the tables completely the other way & say well it doesn't matter because he would have eventually raped Sansa. I fully disagree with that statement but like I said neither of us can say for sure. 

Tywin did not "urge" Tyrion to rape Tysha. He forced him. Forced. 

It's quite comical to me that you feel you cannot take Sansa at her word when she says Tyrion was kind & also cannot take Tyrion for his word when he says he couldn't have hurt Tommen. That's two times you are disregarding the text & coming up with the complete opposite conclusion. 

1 hour ago, TheSeason said:

(Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella, Tysha, Shae--although I would consider that solely a business relationship he ruined by presuming upon her for a romantic relationship, thereby taking back or withholding payment as means to keep her financially dependent upon him; he even managed to ruin the "one chance" his father was willing to give him to prove himself worthy, capable, smart, competent, loyal, and an asset to House Lannister, having entrusted him with "the dynasty" he was trying to build! That could have been the "start" of a "more positive" relationship with Tywin, although it would not run as deep as he hoped it would (love, admiration), and he blew that by threatening House Lannister--Tommen--endangering its future, establishing a whore as his mistress (the one thing his father asked him to sacrifice--and with good reason, it turns out!), and "ruining" his business relationship with the Queen Regent--she was willing to work with him to get Jaime back, as bizarre as that seems (she was that desperate), and keep Joffrey under control, but he began competing with her and undermining her authority from the start; a fine way to ruin a business relationship, though they'd never have a more meaningful relationship, each despising--and fearing--the other.). I think this is a deliberate choice by the author, as well as Tyrion's obliviousness to his self-destructive and poisonous behavior, because if he were fully aware of it (as in Dance), he'd be far less likeable (and Martin needs him to be likeable). 

What did Tyrion do to poison his relationship with Jaime? Jaime lied to Tyrion about Tysha - Tyrion did nothing to Jaime. I've already discussed Tysha but he was innocent here as well. Shae he treated kindly & was good to her & she lied in a trial to get him convicted for something he didn't do - again not his fault. There was absolutely nothing that would have improved Tyrion's relationship with Tywin. Tywin is a hypocrite. Any time Tyrion did do good Tywin did not recognize it & Tywin is Tyrion's father & has hated him since birth. How any of the blame for these ruined relationships could possibly lay with Tyrion is an enigma to me. 

Tyrion undermines Cersei's authority because Cersei is making poor decisions & will not listen the reason. She is unable to control her vile son & any suggestion Tyrion makes is wrong merely because it was from Tyrion. I'm sure the reason Tyrion & Cersei have a bad relationship is Tyrion's fault as well though. 

1 hour ago, TheSeason said:

That said, as far as removing Sansa's age from the equation because it's acceptable in or common practice in Westeros... We shouldn't really. In Westeros Sansa becomes an adult at age sixteen, not when she reaches menarche. Even in Westeros she is considered a child, and therefore a child-bride, and certain exceptions (e.g. consummation) should be made for child-brides (or bridegrooms) by any guardian or spouse (who are supposed to act for the child's best interest and welfare). Just because the concerned parties--the adults, "guardians" (captors), and "spouse" (another captor)--make exceptions for their own political expediency and welfare ahead of Sansa's (they being the ones with all the power) does not mean we should make further exceptions for them (excusing their amorality, abuses, and bad behavior), as might does not make right, as the villains in this event would have us believe. We all know when something is right or wrong, whether or not someone else (the characters, society, customs or laws, in this instance) tells us so. 

I agree mostly & there should be exceptions for a child bride, namely that there are no child brides, but there isn't an exception in Planetos. They aren't making an exception for Sansa - as far as I know there is not another situation where a bride is considered too young to consumate the marriage. I say this not to imply it's ok to have sex with children but that in Planetos it is. Doesn't mean I think it's ok. It just means that there is virtually no reason known to Tyrion to not consumate the marriage other than Sansa not wanting him to. 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tyrion explicitly stated his father forced him to watch Tysha be gang raped and then forced him to rape her himself. How in the world does that make him the culprit there? If someone holds a gun to your head & is going to kill you if you do not have sex with someone & you do it, are you a rapist? He raped 2 slave girls, yes. He did not rape Tysha. He was a victim here. Not to the degree Tysha was but still a victim. I don't remember ever reading anything that implied Tyrion thought Tysha deserved it & surely you are not using the "Wherever whores go" as evidence that Tyrion still calls her a whore even after he knows she is innocent?! Come on really? That is absolutely not why he is saying that. It's written to show his obsession with what Tywin said, his inability to make any use of the information "wherever whores go" in finding Tysha. You don't have any idea why he is seeking her out. It definitely isn't ever stated that it's to alleviate his guilt or convince himself he suffered as much as he did. He has suffered. Period. It doesn't take from Tysha's suffering to say Tyrion suffered as well. 

Tyrion does say that his father "made [him] go last" the first time he tells the story, but I'm not convinced that he wasn't simply trying to lessen his role in the event (especially given Bronn and Shae's reactions to the tale). Tyrion often tries to make his role in things out to be better than it was. 

What Tyrion says happened is that "[his] cock betrayed [him]" and he proceeded to rape his wife. He makes no claims to having a sword held to his throat, as you insist. If that is what happened--and I don't believe it is--you would be correct, Tyrion would have been sexually assaulted by his father in that situation. 

However, Tyrion absolutely does victim blame Tysha, and feels relieved that she was "a whore" who was only interested in him for money, for which he feels the treatment she suffered (at the hands of his father, his father's garrison, and yes, himself too) was fully deserved and his part in it justified--because if it isn't justified, then Tyrion has to accept that he is a raper and a monster. He needs to victim blame her, so he does not have to examine his own faults and failings and the extent of his depravity. Why does Tysha have to be "innocent" to be considered a victim, underserving to be gang-raped and insulted with coin for her suffering? Why is it only upon learning that Tysha was in fact not a whore, nor interested in him for money, that he finally deigns to recognize her as a victim? Was she not a victim before? Would gold-digging or being a sex worker somehow mitigate the trauma she suffered, especially at his hands, the hands of her husband (It doesn't matter whether she was a gold-digger or a whore, she was lawfully his wife, by his choice). 

And, yes, Tyrion is still calling and treating her like a whore. He's not looking for his "wife" or his fellow "victim," he's willfully repeating his father's narrative (that Tysha was a gold-digging whore), and actively "searching" for her in whatever brothel or sex-slave pillowhouse he happens to bypass (wherein he conveniently gets to rape more women who humiliate and revile him). He might subconsciously think of her as a person, but he consciously thinks of her as a whore. And he very much needs to continue repeating this narrative as well, because if he really examines himself, warts and all, he just might kill himself. He's clinging to these old narratives like a lifeline, and while that's perfectly understandable, it also illumines his moral failings and depravity (by highlighting the ways he still victimizes Tysha in his own mind as a survival mechanism). 

Tysha's gang-rape was a lesson, and the lesson was well-learned. Tyrion learned (wrongly) that he was inherently unlovable, just like his father wanted, and proceeded to act accordingly. And Tyrion learned that a man who has been slighted, humiliated, reviled, and made to feel small by a woman can reassert and redefine the balance of power in the relationship by raping and degrading her (another way in which he is just like his father), and that doing so can make him feel good (at least momentarily) about himself again. Tyrion also learned that not only "smallfolk" but also women were beneath him (just as Tywin intended). 

Tyrion's relationship with Tysha has always been all about him, about his needs and his psychological development and his destructive and depraved behavior. Tysha made him feel like a hero when he rescued her from her would-be rapers. Tysha made him feel loved and worthwhile in their brief relationship and marriage. Tysha provided him his first and most formative sexual experiences (wherein Tyrion also knew his "whore" of a wife was somehow in fact simultaneously "a virgin" when they first made love, whereupon he became attracted to "innocence" in women!)--including the sexual violence that he learns to fall back on in order to re-establish control and esteem in relationships with a woman. Tysha's gang-rape gave him a bizarre fascination with whores (in fact, a Madonna-Whore complex, same as Tywin's), and the delusion that he can make whores love him, and the obsession with buying a woman's love and affection (or demonstrations to that effect) as means of satisfying his needs, relating to women, degrading women when they make him feel small, and tempting his father to (sexual) violence against those whores. Tyrion's thoughts about Tysha after Tywin's murder remain all about him, about his needs, and his psychological development, his destructive and depraved behavior, and the little dance he's doing with himself (in Dance) to examine (in small part) or exceed his monstrosity and depravity, to become truly and permanently unlovable and "the monster they [or we] think [he is]." He still has resentment and bitterness directed at Tysha--only this time for "revealing" that monstrosity and depravity to him, for holding up a mirror to his ugliness, rather than for making him feel small. 

I never stated that it "takes away from Tysha's suffering" to suggest that Tyrion has suffered in some capacity. You're trying to put words in my mouth, there. Tyrion is desperately trying to convince himself that he was equally a victim and suffered equally as much as Tysha did as means to escape his feelings of guilt and the full realization about exactly what he did (and failed to do). He needs to do that, to stay sane and to stay alive. Tysha and her gang-rape are such important figures in Tyrion's life and psyche that he cannot (yet) completely examine them (because that means examining his part to play); the man is already hanging on by a thread, and while there are some faults, failures, and depravities he's willing to ponder, there are others (Tysha) that are so traumatic that he might not even survive the peek. 

The fact is, Tyrion raped Tysha, and freely admitted that he raped Tysha. We can agree to disagree about the level of "force" applied to him here. We can also agree that it was a traumatic experience for Tyrion as well as for Tysha. Just as it should not take away from the fullness of Tyrion's trauma to acknowledge the depth and extent of Tysha's suffering, or vice versa, it should not take away from the fullness of Tyrion's trauma to acknowledge Tyrion's part in causing Tysha's suffering. 

 

Maybe you ought to deign to ask someone a question before you presume that only you have a worthwhile understanding of something. Your condescension is uncalled-for. 

 

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We could argue back & forth all day about what Tyrion could have, or would have done but the fact of the matter is he didn't do it. You cannot blame things on him he didn't even do. He didn't ever harm Tommen. He never had any interaction with Tommen that was anything but friendly & he didn't rape Sansa. You don't think he should pat himself on the back for that & that's fine but how can you turn the tables completely the other way & say well it doesn't matter because he would have eventually raped Sansa. I fully disagree with that statement but like I said neither of us can say for sure. 

I never blamed Tyrion for things he did not do. I pointed out that Tyrion is capable of rape (you agree with me that he's done it at least twice) and was insincere in his offer not to rape Sansa, which gave rise to my doubts about his ability to keep his promise (a promise he never bothered to think through before making it, as it was intended to lull Sansa into a false sense of security, whereupon he thought they would consummate their marriage at some point in the future), as well as highlighted the extent of the danger that Sansa was actually in, as evidenced by his attempted rape of Sansa (where others have made light of what Sansa endured that night, as you seem to be doing by boiling down his attempted rape to "he didn't rape Sansa," as if his attempt was not monstrous or traumatic in itself). 

Tyrion never had any direct interaction with Tommen that was alarming, no. You are technically correct, there, but it goes against the spirit of the discussion. Tyrion threatened Tommen harm, and he was preparing himself to go through with that harm before he learned he was impotent to do so (lost possession of Tommen, who was now, thankfully, back in the care of his mother, grandfather, and others who would protect him from the harm Tyrion presented). That's why he was relieved that he had lost possession of Tommen; he was willing to harm the boy if it meant he could "win" against Cersei. There's no need for Tyrion to feel relieved that Cersei thwarted him in his threats of harm against his nephew if he was not willing to carry out those threats, is there?

As for the last part, I do not even know what you are talking about. Please explain. 

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Tywin did not "urge" Tyrion to rape Tysha. He forced him. Forced. 

It's quite comical to me that you feel you cannot take Sansa at her word when she says Tyrion was kind & also cannot take Tyrion for his word when he says he couldn't have hurt Tommen. That's two times you are disregarding the text & coming up with the complete opposite conclusion. 

I happen to disagree with you, with good reason, and I fail to see how that is "comical." Again, your condescension is really grating. Have you even spoken to me before?

I disagree that Sansa thinks Tyrion was kind. The text is "Kind?" With a question mark. She's asking herself a question. She never answers that question, or examines it in any depth, but decides that she cannot tell her aunt (who hates him) such a thing, anyway. Her aunt wouldn't believe it, either. Moreover, the treatment that Tyrion gave Sansa (all detailed in the text) are in no way "kind." He might appear kinder to an abused child by not being one of her principal abusers, one of the people who most often verbally and physically abused her. Joffrey also sexually abused her--but so does Tyrion. I'm judging Tyrion on his deeds (rather than what any one character might have to say about them), which are absolutely unkind. "Polite" (sometimes) might be a better word choice than "kind" to use, and if that is how Sansa meant "kind," then your interpretation is mostly the correct one (barring the attempted rape or the condescension in his speech). 

I also disagree that Tyrion could not have harmed Tommen. The text, including his own thoughts (since you hold them in such high esteem), indicates otherwise. His relief that he was impotent to hurt Tommen should speak for itself. So should his mentality of "But if I don't, Cersei wins." It's only when his father calls him on it (threatening harm to his own House, his own kin) that he tries to back-track and lie (that he never would have gone through with it)--again showcasing how he tries to paint himself in a better light than he belongs in (another habit he learned from Tywin)--likely to avoid his father's anger or punishment for his actions. 

I have not disregarded the text, but yes, I have reached conclusions opposing to your views. 

 

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What did Tyrion do to poison his relationship with Jaime? Jaime lied to Tyrion about Tysha - Tyrion did nothing to Jaime. I've already discussed Tysha but he was innocent here as well. Shae he treated kindly & was good to her & she lied in a trial to get him convicted for something he didn't do - again not his fault. There was absolutely nothing that would have improved Tyrion's relationship with Tywin. Tywin is a hypocrite. Any time Tyrion did do good Tywin did not recognize it & Tywin is Tyrion's father & has hated him since birth. How any of the blame for these ruined relationships could possibly lay with Tyrion is an enigma to me. 

Jaime was a well-meaning fool who rarely thought things through, had delusions about his father and sister (and their capacity for cruelty), and honestly thought he was helping his brother out. When he learned what really happened to Tysha and Tyrion that night, he absolutely should have come clean about the lie, but probably didn't have the heart. But Tyrion treats Jaime as if the lie was malicious in nature, or that Jaime knew beforehand what would happen when he agreed (also pressured by Tywin, but you don't seem to be letting him off the hook for that) to tell that lie at all. 

Tyrion was hurt and angry, and maybe he wasn't thinking clearly--probably had been brooding on all the wrongs done against him (especially by his own family) during his night in the Black Cells awaiting his execution.

Even so, it was Tyrion's choice to end the relationship with Jaime, including telling malicious lies or hurtful truths (Cersei's infidelities) to be cruel, and admitted to murdering Joffrey, his brother's son. He promised vengeance. Choosing peace and forgiveness is also an option, one that Tyrion opted not to take, and that is his fault, something he should own. He deliberately set a collision course by which he hopes to kill his brother (for crimes that do not warrant death). 

Then he proceeded to murder Tywin--who is Jaime's father, too--and while I do not necessarily fault Tyrion for snapping there (where Tywin is concerned), coming on the back of a lifetime of abuse, I also have to acknowledge that Jaime (who Tyrion made complicit in his patricide because he sprung him from prison) and Cersei, and the other Lannisters, are also entitled to justice (or vengeance, as the Lannister ethos of "paying debts" is concerned) for Tyrion's crimes (murdering Tywin, and--they think, due his confession--the murder of Joffrey). That blade is double-edged. If Tyrion is entitled to be avenged against (members of) House Lannister for wrongs done against him, so are they entitled to be avenged against Tyrion for wrongs done against them. 

 

As for Shae, he absolutely was not kind to her. He entered into a business relationship with her, and poisoned it with his delusions of love (having asked her for the girlfriend experience!). He endangered her life without her consent (Tywin having threatened to "hang" the next whore he found in his bed, and having explicitly forbidden Tyrion to take Shae to King's Landing). He struck her when she angered him. He isolated her in that manse (because he endangered her life without her consent) and then grew jealous, angry, and resentful of the company she kept there. He took back and withheld her payment for her services, and forced her to live as servant to two ladies--first Lollys Stokeworth and then his wife, so she would be convenient to bed when he wanted in between changing Sansa's linens and emptying her chamber pot. Shae had plenty of reason to want vengeance against Tyrion (if that's the reason she testified against him at trial; she might have simply asked for her jewels and other payment back, mistakenly from Cersei, and found herself in the lion's (Cersei's Tywin's) clutches thereafter; or she may have been righteously angry with him and took the first opportunity for revenge; it's impossible to tell, as Cersei never revealed the exact details of their conversation). 

Furthermore, Tyrion didn't kill Shae because she testified against him, but because she humiliated him, because he had delusions of their romantic involvement, and because he was wrongfully possessive of her (finding her in Tywin's bed). Shae is unique amongst the people who testified against him in the treatment Tyrion gives to her--and part of that is probably ease of access (she was there), but the other part of that hinges upon his abusive (business) relationship with her, his romantic delusions, his hang-ups about being unlovable, and his typical disgusting and misogynistic treatment of the women who hurt, humiliate, or revile him, damaging his sensitive ego. 

 

Similarly to Shae, we have Alayaya, also demonstrative of Tyrion's depravity where women are concerned. They too had a business relationship. He uses her to hide Shae (pretending that she's the whore he visits), and similarly endangers her life without first getting informed consent on the matter. He willfully uses her to protect Shae, but when Alayaya is harmed in the process (naturally identified as "his whore" because that's what he put out there), he feigns ignorance that she was in any danger, when we as readers know that the danger was the reason why he needed her at all. In the meanwhile, he also becomes unreasonably possessive of her, and irritated with Bronn (and others) for visiting the brothel and having sex with her--never mind that Bronn's business relationship with Alayaya is much healthier than Tyrion's. That said, Tyrion did not act on his unreasonable possessiveness, and I only mention it to highlight his delusional thought processes where women--or sex workers, in particular--are concerned, and how such thought processes can impact any relationship. Tyrion hardly had any contact with Alayaya, and knew little about her (a handful of facts and that she was learning to read), and still his delusional possessiveness started to shine through.

 

We do not know whether Tyrion and Tywin's business relationship could have improved, since Tyrion failed to meet his father's expectations and disappointed him (threatening his own kin) and disobeyed him (bringing Shae to court). Tyrion was not as successful as Hand of the King as he puts forth. Yes, Tywin is a hypocrite, and no he would never love or admire Tyrion (as I said, the relationship would never develop to the extent Tyrion hoped it would; he was delusional in his goals, there), but when Tywin found himself backed into a corner and with no one else to turn to for leadership in House Lannister, support in the war, and to hold their crumbling dynasty together--he recognized Tyrion's competence and intelligence and asked him for help; furthermore, he gave him few restrictions (and those Tyrion refused to meet), and left it for Tyrion to prove his worth. Tyrion proceeded to make some big mistakes, and for that we can only blame Tyrion, not Tywin's hypocrisy. 

 

 

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Tyrion undermines Cersei's authority because Cersei is making poor decisions & will not listen the reason. She is unable to control her vile son & any suggestion Tyrion makes is wrong merely because it was from Tyrion. I'm sure the reason Tyrion & Cersei have a bad relationship is Tyrion's fault as well though. 

Tyrion began undermining Cersei's authority before determining that Cersei could not function as a partner. These were his first acts as Hand--rooting out Pycelle as Cersei's spy and imprisoning him (never mind that Pycelle was in the right to inform the Queen Regent that the Hand of the King was not acting in concert with her, undermining her authority, and putting forth his agenda without bothering to seek her consent. Cersei is the ruler here and Tyrion was meant to further and enforce her policy.), meanwhile making enemies of members of the Small Council, replacing her other agents in power (e.g. Jonos Slynt), poisoning her, placing spies in her private chambers (e.g., Lancel), overtaking her projects in their infancy instead of working with her to refine them (e.g., the wildfire), promising her children in marriage without her consent (all he had to do was discuss Myrcella's safety with her honestly; not to mention sending her to Dorne might be a mistake--there, she's a hostage, just as Cersei said she would be, and she ended up maimed--or killed, depending on how you read that event--and she probably would have been safer at Casterly Rock with the other Lannisters sheltering through the war), kidnapping her children and threatening them harm (Tommen)... 

We can't excuse all of this as Cersei makes poor decisions and doesn't listen to reason, or she's unable to control Joffrey, so Tyrion was right to walk all over her, despite the fact that she's Queen Regent and he's her servant as acting Hand of the King. As I said before, Cersei was willing to work with Tyrion (in her desperation to get Jaime back and keep her children safe) and she did listen to Tyrion/reason (Myrcella is proof of that). Tyrion started the vile competition, he broke their business contract, he undermined Cersei's authority, spied on her, poisoned her, threatened her children. Their bad business relationship is his fault; he initiated it. If instead he had tried to work with her, saw that it wasn't working out, and attempted another (if more devious) path, you might have a point here, but that's not what happened. What would it have hurt Tyrion's position as acting Hand to give the Queen Regent some respect and dignity, to reinforce rather than undermine her authority, to serve and make her look good? The Hand of the King is supposed to be a ruler's helpmeet, not the ruler himself. Tyrion walked into King's Landing and made a power-grab as if he didn't quite understand that his position was temporary. And what then, having antagonized Queen Regent and King both? 

Cersei quite rightly suspected Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, after the way he treated and threatened her and her children previously (not to mention the worsening effect her delusions and paranoia about the prophecy must have had--although that largely feels like a retcon to me), but of course she (and Joffrey) had more enemies than she realized. These accusations and the consequences are a continuation of the narrative and theme. When Tyrion was in power he was careless with those he considered beneath him, and when that power was stripped from him, those he'd mistreated all ganged up to have him hanged. It's a beautifully complex narrative and Tyrion is a beautifully complex character, and I'd never want to diminish that by overlooking how his mistakes might have contributed to his downfall. 

As for this: I'm sure the reason Tyrion & Cersei have a bad relationship is Tyrion's fault as well though. 

Once again, you're trying to put words in my mouth. Where did I say that? Tyrion is at fault for his bad working relationship with Cersei. Tywin and Cersei are at fault for initiating the bad familial relationship with Tyrion. Frankly, you're the one who seems unwilling to accept the complexities of these relationships. I stated clearly that Cersei and Tyrion are both vile people (especially toward each other), and they both share some of the blame for their bad relationship and their depraved treatment of each other. You keep trying to excuse Tyrion of every wrong he ever committed, whilst simultaneously--and falsely!--accusing me of blaming Tyrion for everything, even things he did not do, putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my points and arguments. I don't know who you're so frustrated with, but it isn't me. 

I think you're reading my rebuttals in the wrong context here (that I think Tyrion is only bad), and I don't know where that's come in (I was explicit in my post otherwise, and was a fan of Tyrion's for the first book-and-a-half, warts and all). It definitely feels like your frustration has been building with other people and you took it out on me based on this misunderstanding. 

 

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I agree mostly & there should be exceptions for a child bride, namely that there are no child brides, but there isn't an exception in Planetos. They aren't making an exception for Sansa - as far as I know there is not another situation where a bride is considered too young to consumate the marriage. I say this not to imply it's ok to have sex with children but that in Planetos it is. Doesn't mean I think it's ok. It just means that there is virtually no reason known to Tyrion to not consumate the marriage other than Sansa not wanting him to. 

That isn't really true, is it? Aside from Sansa's feelings, there are plenty of reasons not to consummate the marriage--Tyrion thinks of Sansa as a child, Tyrion doesn't want to be a raper (as you disagree that he is yet, I present it in this light), Sansa could become pregnant at great risk to herself and offspring (with either or both dying in the process, or Sansa becoming sterile, and then what will happen to his "claim" to the North?), Tyrion hopes to make the best of this relationship (he does, although that is a delusion, and he is discounting how he is wronging Sansa by thinking they could become a "couple") and accepts that Sansa needs time to heal and warm up to him... 

They are making an exception for Sansa, however. Powerful people who have their rather than her best interests in mind have arranged this marriage for the political expediency (of exterminating her family and stealing her birthright). That's the same exception they made for little Lady Ermensande (the marriage is such a travesty and a "joke" that people call the young bridegroom "the Nursemaid" for wedding a one-year-old child, although he did so against his will, too). Heartless and cruel powerful people make such exceptions where they can because they can. They know it's wrong, but they don't care that it's wrong. They care about advancing their own interests and political expediency is a convenient guise to advance them under. That's the exception

Elsewise, Westerosi parents and guardians (who love their children and have their best interests at heart) make young betrothals and wait to wed their children until those children reach adulthood, whereupon the marriage can be freely consummated. These arranged marriages are often in hopes of advancing the child's best interest alongside the rest of the family's. They want their kids to be whole, hale, and happy, but also provided for (insofar as a feudal society with land tied to wealth and birthright) and protected. When Ned first arranged Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey, he had no idea what was in store for her (although Robert did, the jerk), and, upon learning, planned to break the betrothal and seek another elsewhere--for Sansa's happiness and welfare. Even Walder Frey tried to arrange advantageous betrothals for his children and grandchildren. Even Olenna Tyrell (and others) were satisfied with Renly but dissatisfied enough to kill Joffrey in favor of Tommen, advancing Margaery's best interests alongside Mace Tyrell's (et. al's?) desire to make her queen (they presumed).

The Tywin Lannisters of Westerosi society are the exception--although Tywin not quite as much as it first appears: he wanted better for Genna than her Frey (and at such a tender age), he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, who she still adores (but settled for Robert, and they made each other miserable), and considered wedding Jaime and Lysa (not knowing about twincest), as well as could not tolerate Tyrion's marriage to Tysha (putting forth Sansa and the North in her stead, securing him a "claim" to the North, and Tyrion wanted a "claim" more than a "wife"), as well as advanced the interests of his brothers' children: Joy Hill (Westerling), Lancel (Darry-Frey), Tyrrek (the baby Ermensande), and even his married sister, Genna (Riverrun), so she and her children, and his brothers' children, no longer had to depend solely on the goodwill of Casterly Rock. Joanna also tried to advance the interests of her children (and perhaps sate Tywin's "royalty"-lust in the process) by wedding her children to the Martell siblings, the children of her best friend, the Princess of Dorne. 

Some of these matches are one-sided matches that only advance the interests of Lannisters (Sansa, Ermensande, maybe the Westerling match) and that's where the abuses come in (two children, one orphaned and the other soon-to-be orphaned and held hostage, and a vassal who lost a child participating in his Stark scheme--as he never warned them about the Red Wedding to come). 

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9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Tyrion explicitly stated his father forced him to watch Tysha be gang raped and then forced him to rape her himself.

Forced him with what? There is no offer of physical force, no threats of disinheritance just a simple command, commands that can be refused.

"So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid.

 

And why is he so angry with Jaime about him telling Tyrion that Tysha was a whore if it was his father who made him do it? If he had no choice but to have sex with her?

 

The fact is that Tyrion believed she was a whore and saw nothing from her behaviour or reactions to suggest that this woman, he claimed he loved, was not there against her wishes. Or more worryingly, like the sex slave in Essos, he simply did not care about her terror thinking that is simply her occupation and that sex is his right. Considering that he, by his own admission, has slept with hundreds of whores after Tysha (all through choice) this is going to mean he has possibly raped countless women, like the sex slave, who he has not cared about their choice in the matter. 

 

Either that or poor Tysha, not really knowing Tyrion that well, simply went along with it as she lives in a society where there is little justice and crying for help or putting up a fight is only going to cause her more pain. She, thinking Tyrion was a part of it, asked for no help or denied that she was a whore and, tragically, accepted her fate. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Forced him with what? There is no offer of physical force, no threats of disinheritance just a simple command, commands that can be refused.

Not in Westeros. Tyrion is Tywin's servant he needs to obey his commands. His only other option being fleeing and being proclaimed traitor of house Lannister and crown.

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18 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Not in Westeros. Tyrion is Tywin's servant he needs to obey his commands. His only other option being fleeing and being proclaimed traitor of house Lannister and crown.

That is not true, Tyrion is free to reject his fathers wishes. 

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."
Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."

 

If his only options were to obey or flee then why does he set up Tysha in a Lannister property after he has married her? Why does he not choose to flee?

Tyrion makes zero mention of being physically forced to rape the woman he claimed to have loved, nor is there a threat of consequences to being called a traitor, if saying no was not an option then his "cock betraying him" is immaterial and he would never have pointed out that he could have refused. 

Tyrion raped her because she was whore, like he raped the woman in Essos. This does not excuse Tywin's actions, but Tysha is the victim here not Tyrion. He put up zero fight, made not a peep in her defence, simply believed Jaime and Tywin's story about this person he claimed to have loved and allowed her to be raped and then took his turn. 

 

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16 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What exactly do you imagen Tyrion says after Sansa says I would rather marry Lancel. Ey joke. There is pretty high chance she would say that and if he truly wanted to marry her he would have brought it up. He would just say he was forced by his father.

No there is not a high chance that Sansa would say that. There was always a higher chance she would comply, because that's what she has been doing when put in life threatening or shaming situations. Tyrion is very much aware of that. He already dangled a carrot before her when he intervened in Joffrey's public abuse of her, and she 'refused' to take it - because she didn't trust it, nor him, and didn't want to get her hopes up. Tyrion knows from experience that when he holds up options to Sansa - options he does not have the actual power to make happen as long as he chooses to collaborate and enables the regime of his family - that it pacifies Sansa to accept the actual situation she's in - hostage, marriage.

The Lannisters are her enemies, and she has quickly learned that if she betrays her preference or wishes to any of them that they will use it against her, or use her as pawns. And she counts Tyrion amongst them and Lancel too. Worse, she had hoped and been trying to imagine living safely away from them at Highgarden for the past few weeks, and she just learned that she'll be wed to a Lannister, come high or low, that day. At this point she barely dares to have any hope in something even remotely like freedom from Lannisters.

This whole mention of "or do you rather wish to marry Lancel?" is totally empty, and to her not much of a better option anyway. Words are totally wind here. And they certainly would be when Tyrion were to say he was forced by his father. He wasn't forced. He was bribed into it by his father, and then he becomes a willing participant in it, because he never warns Sansa of the trick his father intends to play on her.

Words and actions: if they don't match up, then the truth is in the actions, not the words.

17 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Yes he thinks she would do her duty if he made her, than why doesn't he if he is such a pedophile, land greedy monster?

Strawman: I never said that Tyrion is a pedophile nor a monster. Secondly, Tyrion has the potential to be a good person, and he likes to believe himself to be the "good Lannister", and unlike others of his family, he knows that honey makes for peaceful compliance. So, time and time again, Tyrion collaborates for quite selfish reasons, and wants to make a point of it to the rest of his family that he's better than them, and he could be. But in essence, Tyrion needs to believe this of himself in order to avoid facing how dark he is. He's put to the test for the first time by Sansa during the wedding night: "Ok, so you say, you'll not bed me until I want you to. Are your words wind? Or will you live up to them even when it means 'never'?" So, she asks him, "What if I never want you?" For his own self-image he has to acquiesce to it, in that moment. Does he acquiesce to it for Sansa's sake? No, for his own self-image as "I'm the better Lannister".

Over and over again, Tyrion's arc has been "I'm not like the rest of the Lannisters. I'm the better version." This is the identity he clings to throughout the years, just to keep standing in that utterly dysfunctional family. He has the potential to be the "better Lannister", because a part of him is truly morally aghast and enraged with the choices and actions of his father, sister and Joffrey. What he does not get is that it's impossible to ally with these monstrous Lannisters and actually be a good man. You cannot be a collaborator to their depravity and be a hero. This is one of the dillusion that Tyrion has: that he can be the hero while working for a family as callous, amoral, depraved, corrupt and sadistic as his. Sure, he walks into King's Landing determined to see justice done, but he only ends up punishing the foot soldiers and not the actual power. Allar Deem is all well and good, but Slynt's alive to make and be used for trouble within the NW (Tywin intended to use him), and he works to keep Cersei and Joffrey in power, people he considers the worst of the worst. And Littlefinger? Tyrion never does any more than hint at him. His second dillusion is that he uses his family as an excuse to lie to himself about his own dark side, so he can blame them for any desire or impulse that his actual higher self finds disgusting. And the marriage to Sansa is the first true situation where he must face that he himself wants Winterfell, that he lusts for his child-bride. He can blame his evil sister for the murder of children he never knew, and feel good about himself by having Allar Deem killed quite easily, because it's impersonal. He can blame sadistic Joffrey for the mistreatment of Sansa. But he cannot blame anyone but himself when it comes to his desire for Sansa and all that entails, because it has become part of his very personal life. And this is a prelude to the moment where Jaime confesses that Tysha was who she said she was; the first time he's forced to admit that he collaborated in the gang-rape of the girl he loved, the girl he married.

Actually being a good person, let alone a heroic person isn't easy. It goes beyond feeling disgusted what other people do, goes beyond promises to do better than others, goes beyond putting on band-aids on gaping mortal wounds, goes beyond telling hostages whose wishes are 100% ignored "heh, well if you want to marry Lancel, just say the word", goes beyond promising not to touch her if she doesn't want it, goes beyond swearing revenge on your depraved family. Only actions, over and over and over, and self-sacrifice of your own desires and selfish wishes that would harm an innocent prove it. And so far, Tyrion has largely failed to do this. Time and time again, Tyrion has been his own worst enemy.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not true, Tyrion is free to reject his fathers wishes. 

"If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork."
Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere."

 

If his only options were to obey or flee then why does he set up Tysha in a Lannister property after he has married her? Why does he not choose to flee?

Tyrion makes zero mention of being physically forced to rape the woman he claimed to have loved, nor is there a threat of consequences to being called a traitor, if saying no was not an option then his "cock betraying him" is immaterial and he would never have pointed out that he could have refused. 

Tyrion raped her because she was whore, like he raped the woman in Essos. This does not excuse Tywin's actions, but Tysha is the victim here not Tyrion. He put up zero fight, made not a peep in her defence, simply believed Jaime and Tywin's story about this person he claimed to have loved and allowed her to be raped and then took his turn. 

 

What is this post lol? A quote of Tywin commanding Tyrion to be part of the battle that in no way proves Tyrion can reject his father.

He sets up Tysha in Lannister property after he marries her because he has no where to go. If he would live with her they would find them if he flees far away he has no money of his own and nowhere to go really, every noble would return him to Tywin to get his favor. And why would he flee, Tyrion knew his father wont be happy about the marriage but he couldn't predict such a strong cruel reaction.

He rapes Tysha because he is angry at her because he thinks she is a whore that pretended to be a wife that loves him, not because she is a whore. He feels betrayed by her. He also says Tywin makes him go last, like he makes him marry Sansa, fight in the battle ect. Tyrion has no personal holdings of his own so he is in no position to reject his father.

Also do not compare Tyrion before killing Shae and Tywin and the one after. It is a very different person.

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33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What is this post lol? A quote of Tywin commanding Tyrion to be part of the battle that in no way proves Tyrion can reject his father.

 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What is this post lol?

lol can you not read? See, anyone is capable of ebing obnoxious on the internet. 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

 

 

A quote of Tywin commanding Tyrion to be part of the battle that in no way proves Tyrion can reject his father.

He literally rejected his father. 

Notice that Tywin has to sell the marriage of Sansa to Tyrion, rather than simply command him to do so. 

By all means use evidence from the author or the books showing that Tyrion could not reject. Better yet use evidence from the books or the author backing up your made up claim that saying no to his father would mean he had to flee to Essos. 

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He sets up Tysha in Lannister property after he marries her because he has no where to go. If he would live with her they would find them if he flees far away he has no money of his own

He has no money of his own? No access to money? Can you back this up with evidence from the books? How did he pay for the Septon, how did he set her up in a home?

33 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Also do not compare Tyrion before killing Shae and Tywin and the one after. It is a very different person.

Not that different. Sorry. 

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10 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Tyrion does say that his father "made [him] go last" the first time he tells the story, but I'm not convinced that he wasn't simply trying to lessen his role in the event (especially given Bronn and Shae's reactions to the tale). Tyrion often tries to make his role in things out to be better than it was. 

What Tyrion says happened is that "[his] cock betrayed [him]" and he proceeded to rape his wife. He makes no claims to having a sword held to his throat, as you insist. If that is what happened--and I don't believe it is--you would be correct, Tyrion would have been sexually assaulted by his father in that situation. 

However, Tyrion absolutely does victim blame Tysha, and feels relieved that she was "a whore" who was only interested in him for money, for which he feels the treatment she suffered (at the hands of his father, his father's garrison, and yes, himself too) was fully deserved and his part in it justified--because if it isn't justified, then Tyrion has to accept that he is a raper and a monster. He needs to victim blame her, so he does not have to examine his own faults and failings and the extent of his depravity. Why does Tysha have to be "innocent" to be considered a victim, underserving to be gang-raped and insulted with coin for her suffering? Why is it only upon learning that Tysha was in fact not a whore, nor interested in him for money, that he finally deigns to recognize her as a victim? Was she not a victim before? Would gold-digging or being a sex worker somehow mitigate the trauma she suffered, especially at his hands, the hands of her husband (It doesn't matter whether she was a gold-digger or a whore, she was lawfully his wife, by his choice). 

And, yes, Tyrion is still calling and treating her like a whore. He's not looking for his "wife" or his fellow "victim," he's willfully repeating his father's narrative (that Tysha was a gold-digging whore), and actively "searching" for her in whatever brothel or sex-slave pillowhouse he happens to bypass (wherein he conveniently gets to rape more women who humiliate and revile him). He might subconsciously think of her as a person, but he consciously thinks of her as a whore. And he very much needs to continue repeating this narrative as well, because if he really examines himself, warts and all, he just might kill himself. He's clinging to these old narratives like a lifeline, and while that's perfectly understandable, it also illumines his moral failings and depravity (by highlighting the ways he still victimizes Tysha in his own mind as a survival mechanism). 

Tysha's gang-rape was a lesson, and the lesson was well-learned. Tyrion learned (wrongly) that he was inherently unlovable, just like his father wanted, and proceeded to act accordingly. And Tyrion learned that a man who has been slighted, humiliated, reviled, and made to feel small by a woman can reassert and redefine the balance of power in the relationship by raping and degrading her (another way in which he is just like his father), and that doing so can make him feel good (at least momentarily) about himself again. Tyrion also learned that not only "smallfolk" but also women were beneath him (just as Tywin intended). 

Tyrion's relationship with Tysha has always been all about him, about his needs and his psychological development and his destructive and depraved behavior. Tysha made him feel like a hero when he rescued her from her would-be rapers. Tysha made him feel loved and worthwhile in their brief relationship and marriage. Tysha provided him his first and most formative sexual experiences (wherein Tyrion also knew his "whore" of a wife was somehow in fact simultaneously "a virgin" when they first made love, whereupon he became attracted to "innocence" in women!)--including the sexual violence that he learns to fall back on in order to re-establish control and esteem in relationships with a woman. Tysha's gang-rape gave him a bizarre fascination with whores (in fact, a Madonna-Whore complex, same as Tywin's), and the delusion that he can make whores love him, and the obsession with buying a woman's love and affection (or demonstrations to that effect) as means of satisfying his needs, relating to women, degrading women when they make him feel small, and tempting his father to (sexual) violence against those whores. Tyrion's thoughts about Tysha after Tywin's murder remain all about him, about his needs, and his psychological development, his destructive and depraved behavior, and the little dance he's doing with himself (in Dance) to examine (in small part) or exceed his monstrosity and depravity, to become truly and permanently unlovable and "the monster they [or we] think [he is]." He still has resentment and bitterness directed at Tysha--only this time for "revealing" that monstrosity and depravity to him, for holding up a mirror to his ugliness, rather than for making him feel small. 

I never stated that it "takes away from Tysha's suffering" to suggest that Tyrion has suffered in some capacity. You're trying to put words in my mouth, there. Tyrion is desperately trying to convince himself that he was equally a victim and suffered equally as much as Tysha did as means to escape his feelings of guilt and the full realization about exactly what he did (and failed to do). He needs to do that, to stay sane and to stay alive. Tysha and her gang-rape are such important figures in Tyrion's life and psyche that he cannot (yet) completely examine them (because that means examining his part to play); the man is already hanging on by a thread, and while there are some faults, failures, and depravities he's willing to ponder, there are others (Tysha) that are so traumatic that he might not even survive the peek. 

The fact is, Tyrion raped Tysha, and freely admitted that he raped Tysha. We can agree to disagree about the level of "force" applied to him here. We can also agree that it was a traumatic experience for Tyrion as well as for Tysha. Just as it should not take away from the fullness of Tyrion's trauma to acknowledge the depth and extent of Tysha's suffering, or vice versa, it should not take away from the fullness of Tyrion's trauma to acknowledge Tyrion's part in causing Tysha's suffering. 

 

Maybe you ought to deign to ask someone a question before you presume that only you have a worthwhile understanding of something. Your condescension is uncalled-for. 

 

I never blamed Tyrion for things he did not do. I pointed out that Tyrion is capable of rape (you agree with me that he's done it at least twice) and was insincere in his offer not to rape Sansa, which gave rise to my doubts about his ability to keep his promise (a promise he never bothered to think through before making it, as it was intended to lull Sansa into a false sense of security, whereupon he thought they would consummate their marriage at some point in the future), as well as highlighted the extent of the danger that Sansa was actually in, as evidenced by his attempted rape of Sansa (where others have made light of what Sansa endured that night, as you seem to be doing by boiling down his attempted rape to "he didn't rape Sansa," as if his attempt was not monstrous or traumatic in itself). 

Tyrion never had any direct interaction with Tommen that was alarming, no. You are technically correct, there, but it goes against the spirit of the discussion. Tyrion threatened Tommen harm, and he was preparing himself to go through with that harm before he learned he was impotent to do so (lost possession of Tommen, who was now, thankfully, back in the care of his mother, grandfather, and others who would protect him from the harm Tyrion presented). That's why he was relieved that he had lost possession of Tommen; he was willing to harm the boy if it meant he could "win" against Cersei. There's no need for Tyrion to feel relieved that Cersei thwarted him in his threats of harm against his nephew if he was not willing to carry out those threats, is there?

As for the last part, I do not even know what you are talking about. Please explain. 

I happen to disagree with you, with good reason, and I fail to see how that is "comical." Again, your condescension is really grating. Have you even spoken to me before?

I disagree that Sansa thinks Tyrion was kind. The text is "Kind?" With a question mark. She's asking herself a question. She never answers that question, or examines it in any depth, but decides that she cannot tell her aunt (who hates him) such a thing, anyway. Her aunt wouldn't believe it, either. Moreover, the treatment that Tyrion gave Sansa (all detailed in the text) are in no way "kind." He might appear kinder to an abused child by not being one of her principal abusers, one of the people who most often verbally and physically abused her. Joffrey also sexually abused her--but so does Tyrion. I'm judging Tyrion on his deeds (rather than what any one character might have to say about them), which are absolutely unkind. "Polite" (sometimes) might be a better word choice than "kind" to use, and if that is how Sansa meant "kind," then your interpretation is mostly the correct one (barring the attempted rape or the condescension in his speech). 

I also disagree that Tyrion could not have harmed Tommen. The text, including his own thoughts (since you hold them in such high esteem), indicates otherwise. His relief that he was impotent to hurt Tommen should speak for itself. So should his mentality of "But if I don't, Cersei wins." It's only when his father calls him on it (threatening harm to his own House, his own kin) that he tries to back-track and lie (that he never would have gone through with it)--again showcasing how he tries to paint himself in a better light than he belongs in (another habit he learned from Tywin)--likely to avoid his father's anger or punishment for his actions. 

I have not disregarded the text, but yes, I have reached conclusions opposing to your views. 

 

Jaime was a well-meaning fool who rarely thought things through, had delusions about his father and sister (and their capacity for cruelty), and honestly thought he was helping his brother out. When he learned what really happened to Tysha and Tyrion that night, he absolutely should have come clean about the lie, but probably didn't have the heart. But Tyrion treats Jaime as if the lie was malicious in nature, or that Jaime knew beforehand what would happen when he agreed (also pressured by Tywin, but you don't seem to be letting him off the hook for that) to tell that lie at all. 

Tyrion was hurt and angry, and maybe he wasn't thinking clearly--probably had been brooding on all the wrongs done against him (especially by his own family) during his night in the Black Cells awaiting his execution.

Even so, it was Tyrion's choice to end the relationship with Jaime, including telling malicious lies or hurtful truths (Cersei's infidelities) to be cruel, and admitted to murdering Joffrey, his brother's son. He promised vengeance. Choosing peace and forgiveness is also an option, one that Tyrion opted not to take, and that is his fault, something he should own. He deliberately set a collision course by which he hopes to kill his brother (for crimes that do not warrant death). 

Then he proceeded to murder Tywin--who is Jaime's father, too--and while I do not necessarily fault Tyrion for snapping there (where Tywin is concerned), coming on the back of a lifetime of abuse, I also have to acknowledge that Jaime (who Tyrion made complicit in his patricide because he sprung him from prison) and Cersei, and the other Lannisters, are also entitled to justice (or vengeance, as the Lannister ethos of "paying debts" is concerned) for Tyrion's crimes (murdering Tywin, and--they think, due his confession--the murder of Joffrey). That blade is double-edged. If Tyrion is entitled to be avenged against (members of) House Lannister for wrongs done against him, so are they entitled to be avenged against Tyrion for wrongs done against them. 

 

As for Shae, he absolutely was not kind to her. He entered into a business relationship with her, and poisoned it with his delusions of love (having asked her for the girlfriend experience!). He endangered her life without her consent (Tywin having threatened to "hang" the next whore he found in his bed, and having explicitly forbidden Tyrion to take Shae to King's Landing). He struck her when she angered him. He isolated her in that manse (because he endangered her life without her consent) and then grew jealous, angry, and resentful of the company she kept there. He took back and withheld her payment for her services, and forced her to live as servant to two ladies--first Lollys Stokeworth and then his wife, so she would be convenient to bed when he wanted in between changing Sansa's linens and emptying her chamber pot. Shae had plenty of reason to want vengeance against Tyrion (if that's the reason she testified against him at trial; she might have simply asked for her jewels and other payment back, mistakenly from Cersei, and found herself in the lion's (Cersei's Tywin's) clutches thereafter; or she may have been righteously angry with him and took the first opportunity for revenge; it's impossible to tell, as Cersei never revealed the exact details of their conversation). 

Furthermore, Tyrion didn't kill Shae because she testified against him, but because she humiliated him, because he had delusions of their romantic involvement, and because he was wrongfully possessive of her (finding her in Tywin's bed). Shae is unique amongst the people who testified against him in the treatment Tyrion gives to her--and part of that is probably ease of access (she was there), but the other part of that hinges upon his abusive (business) relationship with her, his romantic delusions, his hang-ups about being unlovable, and his typical disgusting and misogynistic treatment of the women who hurt, humiliate, or revile him, damaging his sensitive ego. 

 

Similarly to Shae, we have Alayaya, also demonstrative of Tyrion's depravity where women are concerned. They too had a business relationship. He uses her to hide Shae (pretending that she's the whore he visits), and similarly endangers her life without first getting informed consent on the matter. He willfully uses her to protect Shae, but when Alayaya is harmed in the process (naturally identified as "his whore" because that's what he put out there), he feigns ignorance that she was in any danger, when we as readers know that the danger was the reason why he needed her at all. In the meanwhile, he also becomes unreasonably possessive of her, and irritated with Bronn (and others) for visiting the brothel and having sex with her--never mind that Bronn's business relationship with Alayaya is much healthier than Tyrion's. That said, Tyrion did not act on his unreasonable possessiveness, and I only mention it to highlight his delusional thought processes where women--or sex workers, in particular--are concerned, and how such thought processes can impact any relationship. Tyrion hardly had any contact with Alayaya, and knew little about her (a handful of facts and that she was learning to read), and still his delusional possessiveness started to shine through.

 

We do not know whether Tyrion and Tywin's business relationship could have improved, since Tyrion failed to meet his father's expectations and disappointed him (threatening his own kin) and disobeyed him (bringing Shae to court). Tyrion was not as successful as Hand of the King as he puts forth. Yes, Tywin is a hypocrite, and no he would never love or admire Tyrion (as I said, the relationship would never develop to the extent Tyrion hoped it would; he was delusional in his goals, there), but when Tywin found himself backed into a corner and with no one else to turn to for leadership in House Lannister, support in the war, and to hold their crumbling dynasty together--he recognized Tyrion's competence and intelligence and asked him for help; furthermore, he gave him few restrictions (and those Tyrion refused to meet), and left it for Tyrion to prove his worth. Tyrion proceeded to make some big mistakes, and for that we can only blame Tyrion, not Tywin's hypocrisy. 

 

 

Tyrion began undermining Cersei's authority before determining that Cersei could not function as a partner. These were his first acts as Hand--rooting out Pycelle as Cersei's spy and imprisoning him (never mind that Pycelle was in the right to inform the Queen Regent that the Hand of the King was not acting in concert with her, undermining her authority, and putting forth his agenda without bothering to seek her consent. Cersei is the ruler here and Tyrion was meant to further and enforce her policy.), meanwhile making enemies of members of the Small Council, replacing her other agents in power (e.g. Jonos Slynt), poisoning her, placing spies in her private chambers (e.g., Lancel), overtaking her projects in their infancy instead of working with her to refine them (e.g., the wildfire), promising her children in marriage without her consent (all he had to do was discuss Myrcella's safety with her honestly; not to mention sending her to Dorne might be a mistake--there, she's a hostage, just as Cersei said she would be, and she ended up maimed--or killed, depending on how you read that event--and she probably would have been safer at Casterly Rock with the other Lannisters sheltering through the war), kidnapping her children and threatening them harm (Tommen)... 

We can't excuse all of this as Cersei makes poor decisions and doesn't listen to reason, or she's unable to control Joffrey, so Tyrion was right to walk all over her, despite the fact that she's Queen Regent and he's her servant as acting Hand of the King. As I said before, Cersei was willing to work with Tyrion (in her desperation to get Jaime back and keep her children safe) and she did listen to Tyrion/reason (Myrcella is proof of that). Tyrion started the vile competition, he broke their business contract, he undermined Cersei's authority, spied on her, poisoned her, threatened her children. Their bad business relationship is his fault; he initiated it. If instead he had tried to work with her, saw that it wasn't working out, and attempted another (if more devious) path, you might have a point here, but that's not what happened. What would it have hurt Tyrion's position as acting Hand to give the Queen Regent some respect and dignity, to reinforce rather than undermine her authority, to serve and make her look good? The Hand of the King is supposed to be a ruler's helpmeet, not the ruler himself. Tyrion walked into King's Landing and made a power-grab as if he didn't quite understand that his position was temporary. And what then, having antagonized Queen Regent and King both? 

Cersei quite rightly suspected Tyrion of murdering Joffrey, after the way he treated and threatened her and her children previously (not to mention the worsening effect her delusions and paranoia about the prophecy must have had--although that largely feels like a retcon to me), but of course she (and Joffrey) had more enemies than she realized. These accusations and the consequences are a continuation of the narrative and theme. When Tyrion was in power he was careless with those he considered beneath him, and when that power was stripped from him, those he'd mistreated all ganged up to have him hanged. It's a beautifully complex narrative and Tyrion is a beautifully complex character, and I'd never want to diminish that by overlooking how his mistakes might have contributed to his downfall. 

As for this: I'm sure the reason Tyrion & Cersei have a bad relationship is Tyrion's fault as well though. 

Once again, you're trying to put words in my mouth. Where did I say that? Tyrion is at fault for his bad working relationship with Cersei. Tywin and Cersei are at fault for initiating the bad familial relationship with Tyrion. Frankly, you're the one who seems unwilling to accept the complexities of these relationships. I stated clearly that Cersei and Tyrion are both vile people (especially toward each other), and they both share some of the blame for their bad relationship and their depraved treatment of each other. You keep trying to excuse Tyrion of every wrong he ever committed, whilst simultaneously--and falsely!--accusing me of blaming Tyrion for everything, even things he did not do, putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my points and arguments. I don't know who you're so frustrated with, but it isn't me. 

I think you're reading my rebuttals in the wrong context here (that I think Tyrion is only bad), and I don't know where that's come in (I was explicit in my post otherwise, and was a fan of Tyrion's for the first book-and-a-half, warts and all). It definitely feels like your frustration has been building with other people and you took it out on me based on this misunderstanding. 

 

That isn't really true, is it? Aside from Sansa's feelings, there are plenty of reasons not to consummate the marriage--Tyrion thinks of Sansa as a child, Tyrion doesn't want to be a raper (as you disagree that he is yet, I present it in this light), Sansa could become pregnant at great risk to herself and offspring (with either or both dying in the process, or Sansa becoming sterile, and then what will happen to his "claim" to the North?), Tyrion hopes to make the best of this relationship (he does, although that is a delusion, and he is discounting how he is wronging Sansa by thinking they could become a "couple") and accepts that Sansa needs time to heal and warm up to him... 

They are making an exception for Sansa, however. Powerful people who have their rather than her best interests in mind have arranged this marriage for the political expediency (of exterminating her family and stealing her birthright). That's the same exception they made for little Lady Ermensande (the marriage is such a travesty and a "joke" that people call the young bridegroom "the Nursemaid" for wedding a one-year-old child, although he did so against his will, too). Heartless and cruel powerful people make such exceptions where they can because they can. They know it's wrong, but they don't care that it's wrong. They care about advancing their own interests and political expediency is a convenient guise to advance them under. That's the exception

Elsewise, Westerosi parents and guardians (who love their children and have their best interests at heart) make young betrothals and wait to wed their children until those children reach adulthood, whereupon the marriage can be freely consummated. These arranged marriages are often in hopes of advancing the child's best interest alongside the rest of the family's. They want their kids to be whole, hale, and happy, but also provided for (insofar as a feudal society with land tied to wealth and birthright) and protected. When Ned first arranged Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey, he had no idea what was in store for her (although Robert did, the jerk), and, upon learning, planned to break the betrothal and seek another elsewhere--for Sansa's happiness and welfare. Even Walder Frey tried to arrange advantageous betrothals for his children and grandchildren. Even Olenna Tyrell (and others) were satisfied with Renly but dissatisfied enough to kill Joffrey in favor of Tommen, advancing Margaery's best interests alongside Mace Tyrell's (et. al's?) desire to make her queen (they presumed).

The Tywin Lannisters of Westerosi society are the exception--although Tywin not quite as much as it first appears: he wanted better for Genna than her Frey (and at such a tender age), he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar, who she still adores (but settled for Robert, and they made each other miserable), and considered wedding Jaime and Lysa (not knowing about twincest), as well as could not tolerate Tyrion's marriage to Tysha (putting forth Sansa and the North in her stead, securing him a "claim" to the North, and Tyrion wanted a "claim" more than a "wife"), as well as advanced the interests of his brothers' children: Joy Hill (Westerling), Lancel (Darry-Frey), Tyrrek (the baby Ermensande), and even his married sister, Genna (Riverrun), so she and her children, and his brothers' children, no longer had to depend solely on the goodwill of Casterly Rock. Joanna also tried to advance the interests of her children (and perhaps sate Tywin's "royalty"-lust in the process) by wedding her children to the Martell siblings, the children of her best friend, the Princess of Dorne. 

Some of these matches are one-sided matches that only advance the interests of Lannisters (Sansa, Ermensande, maybe the Westerling match) and that's where the abuses come in (two children, one orphaned and the other soon-to-be orphaned and held hostage, and a vassal who lost a child participating in his Stark scheme--as he never warned them about the Red Wedding to come). 

I'm having a hard time quoting in bits from my phone. First I would like to apologize for being condescending . I didn't realize how bad it sounded until I reread it & there was no reason for me to be that way. I am sorry. 

It seems I'm wrong about another thing as well. I could've swore Tyrion said Tywin forced him but you are correct, that isn't what he said. It's how I read it - I felt as if Tywin forced him, but he doesn't say it & maybe he didn't. Just to clarify though I wasn't meaning that Tywin held a sword to Tyrion, I was thinking more along the lines of Tywin threatening Tyrion with something. Like possibly Tysha's life. 

If you could provide quotes indicating Tyrion was relieved at Tysha being a whore & feeling she deserved her treatment I may feel differently about him but I don't remember ever thinking Tyrion felt that way. I am currently doing a reread but am still in aGoT. 

We will have to agree to disagree about the "wherever whores go" as we really only have our own speculation as to why he keeps repeating that line & mine differs from yours.

I don't know how we would know that Tyrion & Tysha's relationship was all about Tyrion when we have very little insight into it & none from Tysha but I don't think it's a bad thing that she made him feel like a hero, loved, & worthwhile. As far as his whore of a wife being a virgin - Jaime told him they paid more for a maid. I took what you wrote to mean Tyrion should have known she wasn't a whore? Maybe you were just using the fact that she was a virgin to indicate his preference for the "innocent" in which case you may be right. 

I agree he has learned a nasty lesson from this. I just see him as more of a victim in this regard (mostly due to the fact that I thought Tyrion said Tywin forced him ) at any rate this is any horrific scene to witness or take part in & undoubtedly left lasting effects on Tyrion whether they are his own doings or not. It seems unlikely to me that even believing Tysha is a whore he put up no protest to what was being done to her. Surely Tysha told him it wasn't true? I don't feel very confident speaking on the matter after I realized what I have thought the whole time (that Tywin forced him ) may not be true. As you conceded if he was forced it makes him a victim as well, I will concede if he was not forced it makes him a pretty violent, vicious, rapist. It makes me sad lol. 

I agree Tyrion is capable of rape but disagree that he was insincere when he said he wouldn't rape Sansa. He said he wouldn't & he didn't. Whether or not he would have is a matter of opinion & we disagree there.

I'm running out of time to reply but would like to touch on a few more points:

 

- I agree Jaime meant to do the right thing by telling Tyrion but Tyrion choosing to cut him out of his life is not what ruined their relationship - Jaime's lie did. 

- Tyrion knew before coming to KL to be hand that Cersei could not control her son &/or made poor decisions because Ned had already been beheaded. 

- Tyrion never notes, nor does anyone else, fear that Sansa getting pregnant now would or could be dangerous to her or the baby & I don't recall another instance in Planetos where this is the case. He may be delusional in thinking sansa could ever warm to him but I feel as if this is very hurtful (not any blame lying with Sansa here, she had every reason & right to never warm to him) & chalk his reaction up to feeling hurt.

- He killed Shae for lots of reasons, including the one you named & many more. It was something that started piling up when Tysha was gang raped & finally overfilled when he found Tysha in Tywin's bed. 

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On 10/28/2017 at 1:22 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

He clearly doesn't want marriage to happen, other ways he wouldn't tell her about Lancel.

I think it's dangerous to take Tyrion's word for this literally, since there are several good reasons not to.

1) When the discussion of Tyrion's marriage occurs between him, Tywin and Kevan, the idea of Lancel (or other Lannister prospects) is brought up but Kevan pours cold water on all of them by stating that Lancel would be unable to consummate and the 3 others are unavailable due to being prisoners of the Starks. Clearly, these other options for marriage to Sansa are not meant to be taken seriously. Tyrion immediately grasps that, thinking "Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew."

2) It's pretty hard to believe that Tyrion would have the authority to offer Lancel's hand in marriage to Sansa. He's not Lancel's father or guardian; he's not even acting Hand of the King any more. If he promises something he can't deliver, it's a pretty safe bet that the promise cannot be made in good faith.

3) We readers already know that Tyrion can be duplicitous and promise one thing while meaning another thing entirely. Remember he promised to negotiate the exchange of Sansa for Jaime, but he absolutely was being dishonest in that, to the point of disguising some soldiers as "negotiators" with orders to bust Jaime out by force.

4) We only read of Tyrion's "offer" of Lancel in Sansa's POV, so we have no way to determine his sincerity. If he said this in his own POV, we might have some clue if he was saying this for form's sake or if he truly meant it. Even if in his thoughts he was sincere, reasons 1-3 above would be cause to doubt him.

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2 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

) When the discussion of Tyrion's marriage occurs between him, Tywin and Kevan, the idea of Lancel (or other Lannister prospects) is brought up but Kevan pours cold water on all of them by stating that Lancel would be unable to consummate and the 3 others are unavailable due to being prisoners of the Starks. Clearly, these other options for marriage to Sansa are not meant to be taken seriously. Tyrion immediately grasps that, thinking "Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew."

 Correct but I'm sure Tywin would have came up with a viable option had Tyrion refused. 

 

3 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

2) It's pretty hard to believe that Tyrion would have the authority to offer Lancel's hand in marriage to Sansa. He's not Lancel's father or guardian; he's not even acting Hand of the King any more. If he promises something he can't deliver, it's a pretty safe bet that the promise cannot be made in good faith.

Of course Tyrion has no authority to offer Lancel up for marriage he only has the authority to refuse to the marriage himself & suffer what ever consequences there may be. He is saying Lancel because that is who Tywin said he would marry Sansa to if Tyrion refused. 

 

5 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

We readers already know that Tyrion can be duplicitous and promise one thing while meaning another thing entirely. Remember he promised to negotiate the exchange of Sansa for Jaime, but he absolutely was being dishonest in that, to the point of disguising some soldiers as "negotiators" with orders to bust Jaime out by force.

Right but in all fairness this is quote a different situation. He is trying to save his brother here. I think it more likely that if Tyrion's offer wasn't sincere he made it knowing Sansa would never voice an opinion on the matter either way. She would only parrot "whatever my king commands" 

 

6 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

4) We only read of Tyrion's "offer" of Lancel in Sansa's POV, so we have no way to determine his sincerity. If he said this in his own POV, we might have some clue if he was saying this for form's sake or if he truly meant it. Even if in his thoughts he was sincere, reasons 1-3 above would be cause to doubt him.

You are correct. We really don't know if Tyrion would have refused the marriage if Sansa said she preferred Lancel. 

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58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Correct but I'm sure Tywin would have came up with a viable option had Tyrion refused. 

Not sure if you mean a viable option for Sansa or for Tyrion. Tywin did say that if Tyrion refused the Stark girl then he (Tywin) would find another wife, perhaps among the lesser houses. So there were indeed other viable options for Tyrion (which kinda weakens the case that Tyrion was forced into marrying Sansa).

But I can't really agree that Tywin had other options in mind for Sansa. Firstly, there isn't really any indication in the text that he "would have" come up with something, that's purely speculative; and secondly, the only other options brought up were only done so for form's sake. The fact that the other 4 (4!) bridegroom possibilities other than Tyrion were clearly impossible seems proof enough of this.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Of course Tyrion has no authority to offer Lancel up for marriage he only has the authority to refuse to the marriage himself & suffer what ever consequences there may be. He is saying Lancel because that is who Tywin said he would marry Sansa to if Tyrion refused.

I think that's doubtful. Kevan is of the exact same mind as Tywin on pretty much all matters. So if he says Lancel is not up to the job, then it is because that's Tywin's opinion also. Remember as well the pressure on Tyrion to consummate with Sansa, to make the marriage binding. If Lancel is unable to right away, then that's a problem for the Lannisters.

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but in all fairness this is quote a different situation. He is trying to save his brother here. I think it more likely that if Tyrion's offer wasn't sincere he made it knowing Sansa would never voice an opinion on the matter either way. She would only parrot "whatever my king commands" 

Actually, I don't agree that it was a different situation. As regards Tyrion being duplicitious, it's pretty much the same situation, by saying one thing but at the same time either privately meaning something else (in the case of Jaime negotiations) or offering a false choice (in the Sansa case) because he knowingly cannot guarantee the offered outcome.

And in trying to determine whether Tyrion is sincere or not, I'm not sure it matters what Sansa's most likely reply would be. The question is, is Tyrion making a good-faith offer to replace himself with his cousin? I'm coming down on the side of "No".

Besides, if what he really wanted was to save his brother, he absolutely had the option to negotiate with the Starks in good faith and actually accomplish the exchange of Sansa for Jaime. However, he chose duplicity and bad faith instead.

 

 

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1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

As as Lannister fan I just want to add that there are many good reasons to both like and dislike Tyrion. And personally I'm torn between like and dislike for the character at present. :(

Killing Tywin the main reason to dislike him :P

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1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Not sure if you mean a viable option for Sansa or for Tyrion. Tywin did say that if Tyrion refused the Stark girl then he (Tywin) would find another wife, perhaps among the lesser houses. So there were indeed other viable options for Tyrion (which kinda weakens the case that Tyrion was forced into marrying Sansa).

But I can't really agree that Tywin had other options in mind for Sansa. Firstly, there isn't really any indication in the text that he "would have" come up with something, that's purely speculative; and secondly, the only other options brought up were only done so for form's sake. The fact that the other 4 (4!) bridegroom possibilities other than Tyrion were clearly impossible seems proof enough of this.

No I'm talking about a viable option for Sansa. If Tyrion refuses to marry Sansa Tywin isn't going to just say "oh well there is no one else so I guess we won't marry her to anyone." He would most definetely find a Lannister to marry her to. The only other option available to Tywin is to force Tyrion. Further more if Tywin wasn't serious about Lancel & Lancel really wasn't an option to Sansa then Lancel wasn't an option to Tyrion either & he had no choice but to marry her. In which case he can not be held to blame for marrying her. 

 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think that's doubtful. Kevan is of the exact same mind as Tywin on pretty much all matters. So if he says Lancel is not up to the job, then it is because that's Tywin's opinion also. Remember as well the pressure on Tyrion to consummate with Sansa, to make the marriage binding. If Lancel is unable to right away, then that's a problem for the Lannisters

There is pressure for Tyrion to consummate the marriage but as of the point where Sansa got away he had not consummated the marriage & nothing more than "pressure" had been done. They could have waited on Lancel if they had to. That just wasn't the best option. 

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24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think this is one of the main reasons to like him. 

Despite the fact Tywin was horrible, this act makes Tyrion look like a total freak.

It might me just me, but while he was trying to escape from Tywin's shadow, this move was Tywin-ish on a whole new level. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As for the bolded part I don't remember reading anything that led me to believe she was particularly anxious about displeasing men - she doesn't want to displease anyone. 

In general yes, she wants to be pleasing to everyone.  She clearly wants to please her septa and she idolizes Cersei (before she knows her) as her role model as a future Queen.  Even Myrcella.  I guess I should clarify where it comes to men.  This is a patriarchy.  Women's safety and security is heavily tied to pleasing and not upsetting men.  Not just a man Sansa could be married to, but men of noble class or higher in general.  I don't wanna derail anything but just to give examples of her septa teaching her to ignore her instincts and be pleasant.  Note how Septa Mordane senses Sansa's hesitation and immediately jumps in to correct her.  The messages she's sending is clear:  ignore your feelings, ignore men's inappropriate behavior, don't question men's decisions, be pleasant and make men feel comfortable. 

Quote

"I'm Sansa Stark," she said, ill at ease. The man wore a heavy cloak with a fur collar, fastened with a silver mockingbird, and he had the effortless manner of a high lord, but she did not know him. "I have not had the honor, my lord."

Septa Mordane quickly took a hand. "Sweet child, this is Lord Petyr Baelish, of the king's small council."

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once," the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. "You have her hair." His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away.

---

She had said as much to Septa Mordane as they descended the stairs from the gallery, but the septa had only told her it was not her place to question her lord father's decisions.

That was when Lord Baelish had said, "Oh, I don't know, Septa. Some of her lord father's decisions could do with a bit of questioning. The young lady is as wise as she is lovely." He made a sweeping bow to Sansa, so deep she was not quite sure if she was being complimented or mocked.
Septa Mordane had been very upset to realize that Lord Baelish had overheard them. "The girl was just talking, my lord," she'd said. "Foolish chatter. She meant nothing by the comment."

 

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As cruel as Tywin is I don't think he was trying to marry Sansa to a "monster" & I don't think Tyrion is a monster any more or less than a lot of characters in the book. He was truly trying to reward Tyrion. At any rate there is no reason for Tywin to object to the marrigae as Sansa is beautiful & Tywin knows (believes) Sansa will soon be heir to WF. It's a great political match for Tywin to make especially during this war. He would be stupid to not make it. 

As far as children being used as pawns - that's exactly what almost every marriage we see in Planetos does. Marriage pacts are made by the parents to be able to gain lands, riches, lordships, etc. If that isn't using them as pawns I don't know what is. Tyrion being ugly & malformed is not what made the marriage cruel. The marriage was cruel because it was made without Sansa's consent & into a family that had killed her father & was holding her hostage. My point being it would have been no different had she been married to Lancel. 

For the record, I did not say "monster" in any way shape or form to refer to Tyrion's achondroplasia.  This is not an ableist argument against the marriage.  "Monster" = any given asshole that would willfully inflict harm or shame upon their spouse.  This is about character.  The degree to which Tyrion is or is not a monster is precisely what we're discussing.

No, not everyone sees their children as pawns even though it is expected that marriages are arranged by the parents.  It's not either / or.  Some, like Tywin, will arrange marriages for purely mercenary reasons and not give a shit if their children or the prospective spouse are opposed to it or what harm may come of it.  Ned and Catelyn are not awful people who are selling Sansa for family gain.  Their marriage was arranged and just happened to turn out positive for them both.  I mean they could have already betrothed Robb since he's approaching legal adulthood, but they haven't.  If anyone could be used as a pawn to make a really profitable match for House Stark, it's Robb.  He's the heir to Winterfell.  They do take into account that Sansa would live a comfortable life as a queen, that the offer of a royal betrothal is a huge honor that they can't easily refuse, plus the established friendship between Ned and Robert.  They also take into account that at this time the betrothal is pleasing to Sansa.  It's the Westerosi equivalent to sending your kid to a prestigious ivy league university if you had the opportunity to do so.  This isn't the Tywin-esque way of doing things.  It's trying to give your child the best possible advantages in life.  Ned and Cat are thoroughly traditionalists, because it worked out for them and they just think this is what normal people are supposed to do for their kids.  And most husbands and wives do try to get along cordially even if it's not a love match.  They are generally accepting of the arrangement if it isn't outright abusive.  Ned doesn't realize how bad Joffrey is until much later (thought he should have seen the red flags sooner), so Ned does care about the character of Sansa's husband and how she will be treated.  Tywin's extreme callousness towards his children is not supposed to be taken as average by any means.  He's supposed to be particularly callous among patriarchs.           

21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is just silly. I don't read this as Tyrion trying to be condescending in any way. He is very respectful & is trying to offer his condolences. Much the same way someone says "God has a plan" or something of that nature when a loved one dies. 

Um, no.  Sansa's reaction to him saying "the gods are cruel" is is this guy seriously saying that?  Is that a joke?  Because the guy who murdered her father is literally a few feet away.  She knows.  She was there.  She heard Joffrey give the order and have her father beheaded while she had to watch the whole thing.  The gods are not responsible, Joffrey is.  So why the fuck is he giving her some stupid platitude about the gods working in mysterious ways as if they both don't know who is really responsible?  It's not respectful to insult someone's intelligence.  He is glossing over the truth of what happened.  If that is his idea of offering a condolence either he is truly an idiot (which he is not) or this is an empty platitude meant to distance his family from responsibility.  Fuck him.   Ned did not die of cancer.  He was murdered and everyone knows who did it.  It's insulting for anyone to call it "god's will" to the bereaved when a loved one is murdered, especially coming from the murderer's family.   

As to the rest of your post, you are framing Sansa's negative reaction to this marriage as due to her ableist views.  I will not deny Sansa has ableist views and is overly concerned with physical appearance, but that is hardly the main cause of her distress.  Excuse me if I don't prioritize Tyrion's hurt feelings as being on the same level with a child about to be raped and exploited.  Excuse me if I don't use "yes but he was abused" to soften my opinion of his choices as a man.  Excuse me if I don't make Sansa's mistakes and faults as an immature 11/12 year old a reason why I should give Tyrion a break on his role in a forced marriage.  This is not a normal fucking arranged marriage where both parties seek benefit from the arrangement.  She's a child political prisoner being exploited without one ally who is genuinely on her side present to offer her any support.      

We are not debating to what degree Sansa played in the arrest of her father in this thread as there are many other threads concerned with that topic.  We are addressing Tyrion's choices as an adult man with power over Sansa in this particular situation.  Yes, there's a war going on so in a general sense Robb is "in danger."   But this isn't battlefield danger.  Tywin strongly suggests to Tyrion that the Spicers and Westerlings are going to betray Robb.  He "threatens to smile" which he might as well be a mustache-twirling villain here.  Tyrion is not an idiot, he knows his father.  Now if this truly disturbed him and he was concerned, wouldn't he be asking more detailed questions to know what his father was specifically planning?  He doesn't, he avoids asking for specifics.  It's (im)plausible deniability so he can say "I didn't know!  It wasn't me!  I was as much a victim as you, Sansa!"  He only asks about things that could impede him from being Lord Protector of Winterfell.  There absolutely no evidence that Tyrion is not complicit.  He's willing.  He wants it.  He's okay with whatever it takes to make it happens so as long as he can tell himself he's the good Lannister.  I mean FFS he's Hand of the King and he's got his own people working for him.  If he wanted to do something to help Sansa (in a way she would like to be helped) he could have pulled some strings.  What choice did he have?  A hell of a lot more choices than Sansa.  He just wasn't willing to sacrifice or defy his family to help her.  Not in a way that would cost him something.  I'm sorry you didn't see the RW coming, but it was pretty established a trap was being set for Robb.  That doesn't mean Tyrion could genuinely say he didn't know something really bad was going to happen or that he isn't complicit.         

Listen, I'm a huge Sandor fan, but I rail against using what his brother did to him to justify or mitigate the harm he causes.  These are grown men making decisions that affect other people.  You don't get to slide on bad childhood forever.  You don't get to slide on the world is terrible and no one likes me because I'm ugly for the way you treat people.  I can both hate and despise Tywin for how he's treated Tyrion and fully acknowledge the effects of that abuse upon Tyrion.  It explains a lot of why he is the way he is.  I can hate it when Tyrion is mistreated because of his disability.  That does not mean I have to prioritize that sympathy when he's about to do something really shitty to an innocent person. 

I just can't even with the thinking that "well we can't really judge what's happening to Sansa because it's legal in Westeros."  Bullshit.  GRRM is clearly showing us everything wrong in the systems in institutions here.  He doesn't present any of this as justifiable or okay by anyone's standard.  He is telling the story of the wedding night from the victim's perspective.  He wants us to feel her fear and empathize with her.  It's okay to be judgey about it.  Tywin's treatment of Tyrion is allowed in an ableist society with toxic definitions of masculinity, but we are allowed and supposed to judge him for that as you clearly and rightly do.  No one says well those were the times and Tywin just didn't know any better.  Tyrion's shock at her saying "never" is not supposed to make us say "awwwwww what a big sad for him."  It's absurd that he's shocked a child bride/political prisoner being robbed of everything they can get out of her would never want to have sex with him.  Idgaf how nice a person is, no one is obligated to give them sex, not ever.  That's why it takes all of Sansa's courage to say that to his face, because she knows he expects her to give in when he plays the "nice guy" card.  Maybe not that night, but soon he expect her to just get over it.  His word to never force her only means anything if "no" is always a choice she is free to make.  Even if "no" is forever, no matter how sad it makes him.  Even if "no" is for purely ableist reasons, which still does not invalidate the "no."  That's what real consent is, which is what you claim Tyrion is offering her.  An honest to goodness choice.  You say you don't want to judge this by real world standards, but real word standards are far from a liberal progressive paradise either.  We still see victims being at least partially blamed because they weren't "pure" enough in some way.  We still have people thinking the "friendzone" is a tragedy for men.  Well, if you value women's friendship as a real relationship worth having all by itself then there's no tragedy.  "Friendzone" shames women for their ability to say "no" when the man desires her.  His disappointment is not the most important thing at stake.  It's not a true friendship if he's using being nice as the means to get into her pants and resents her when she doesn't want that.  In a manner of speaking, that's what's happening on the wedding night.  The tactic of being nice for the purpose of making someone feel obligated to give in is a form of manipulation.  By Tyrion blaming his appearance and disability as the main reason Sansa is refusing, he's A. wrong, it isn't the main reason she is refusing  B. putting the blame on Sansa for not consenting  C. making Sansa look like the one in the wrong because she's shallow when that is not the main reason she is refusing  D. Conveniently ignores or glosses over the main and obvious reason.  

It's already been explained very thoroughly by @sweetsunray why the offer of Lancel is not a real choice.  I would only add that Tyrion is fully aware Lancel is physically incapable of consummating the marriage which is the point of making this all legal and legit.  He was never a real candidate.

Quote

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"

Ser Kevan hesitated. "If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words . . . but to consummate, no . . . I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna's boy Tion as well, else he might serve."

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew. Sansa Stark, he mused. Soft-spoken sweet-smelling Sansa, who loved silks, songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights with handsome faces. He felt as though he was back on the bridge of boats, the deck shifting beneath his feet.

So even if Sansa said "Lancel," no one is going to postpone this wedding and wait for Lancel.  That's absurd.  They are also expediting this because the Lannister's found out about the Tyrell plot to take Sansa to Highgarden and marry her to Willas.  They need her wedded and bedded immediately before the Tyrells have a chance to respond.  Tywin isn't seriously considering other candidates and Tyrion knows it.  It's a performance between Tywin and Kevan to entice Tyrion for a chance at his own lordship, castle, and beautiful trophy wife.  Of course Tywin is dropping hints about finding someone who is "man enough" to consummate the marriage.  Tyrion's sexuality and generally following his cock around has always been a point of contention between them.  Tyrion can't be a "real man" in the warrior sense under toxic masculine standards, but he certainly flaunts his libido as a way of pushing back and proving his manhood.  Tywin intends to harness that part of Tyrion's character and put it to use.  And Tyrion is just sitting there daydreaming and practically swooning about the opportunity that's landed in his lap.  His mind is already made up.  So when he's offering her a choice of Lancel as if it's a real option he's a LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE LIAR.  One cannot then blame Sansa for not taking a choice that was never genuine.  It's not like Lancel was ever that kind to her pre-Blackwater either.  He was always cold and unsympathetic.          

On 10/28/2017 at 4:22 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

That is simply wrong. You are clearly holding Tyrion to some 21st century liberal standards.  In Middle Ages/Westeros a lot of the noble marriages would be considered rape from your point of view. Young women had no choice but to marry older men that they didn't even know, and they could be ugly, crippled . But in Westeros there is no such thing as raping your wife, since sex is duty that man and woman must attend and since man has leading role in marriage he decides when and how he wants to do it.

Also no plan is not to impregnate her, plan is to consume marriage for it to be legal, Sansa is safely in KL and child can wait. If she gets impregnated at age of 13 changes of dying at childbirth or causing infertility afterwards are pretty high and they know that.

Not in the legal sense of the word, no.  It would not be prosecuted if it occurs within marriage.  But people still do know what rape is and they know it when they see it.  It is illegal in general.  Arya sees a man in a crow cage with his genitals cut off as punishment for rape.  Stannis gelds his men that are caught raping even wildling women.  There are major problems in the world about how and when rape is prosecuted and punished, that is absolutely true.  Often it's dependent on the social status of the rapist and the victim.  But even within marriage, they know it when they see it.  Jaime, who is hardly the most moral of characters, stands outside the room and listens as Aerys rapes Rhaella.  His conscience tells him "This is wrong. We need to do something."  And he voices that wish to stop this to another kingsguard who tells him we're not supposed to protect her from him.  Both of them are acknowledging the truth of what is happening.  No one is saying "well they are married so it's not rape."  They know it's rape and they choose ignore their conscience and let it go because it's the king that is raping his wife.  People hear the screams of Arya/Jeyne in Winterfell when Ramsay rapes her.  No one is saying this is okay or expected because they are married.  They explicitly plan to shed some Bolton blood over what is happening to her.  At Edmure and Roslin's wedding, she's clearly frightened because she knows what's going to happen.  She has no reason to grow attached to Edmure after one night, but she does.  She clearly has an affection for him and continues to worry about him.  That cannot be because Edmure just "did his duty."  Imagine how powerless Roslin would feel going into this marriage, especially being raised among the Freys and how Old Walder treats his wives.  We can only conclude that Edmure was kind, attentive, and made her feel comfortable in a genuine way.   

Misogyny is certainly baked into the system and every Westorosi marriage.  Ned can legally rape Catelyn and never be prosecuted, even though they have the happiest of marriages on page.  There's clearly an inherent power imbalance even if it's not exercised.  Yes, there are men who do rape their wives and get away with it, but that doesn't mean we should conclude people don't know any better in this world or that no one cares or they view that as normal marital relations.  Typical would probably be more like two people cordially interacting that have sex sometimes to ensure they have enough heirs, but probably after that the sex drops off considerably.  More often than not you see men seeking pleasure with mistresses or prostitutes.  Women less so, because there's more negative consequence to their infidelity.  I would never argue this is a good system for marriage or fair, but it doesn't indicate men are regularly raping their wives.    

When exactly did Tywin and Tyrion have a conversation about making sure Sansa wouldn't get pregnant for her safety?  Was there talk of using moon tea or pulling out?  Oh wait, that never happened.  Winterfell, the marriage, an an heir all go hand-in hand.  Succession is extremely important when you're trying to establish authority.  That's why Robb and Jeyne are trying so hard to conceive as quickly as possible.  The question of heirs is critical to political stability.  You can't have a claim up for grabs every generation.  It results in civil wars.  Robb can't have an heir because the Northmen could rally behind him or her and any of them would come before Sansa's children in inheritance rights.  It's also one reason Ramsey is repeated raping Jeyne/Arya.  The marriage is to get the Bolton's foot in the door to rule in "his wife's name," an heir with Stark blood is to keep that power.  It doesn't even really matter if Sansa dies in childbirth.  It's a gamble Tywin would take to get a Lannister as legitimate / legal heir to Winterfell with Tyrion as Lord Protector and sole guardian.  Tywin absolutely has no reason to tell Tyrion to wait on impregnating Sansa.  Their children establish the new theoretical Lannister dynasty in the North.  If they delay, there's more chance of rebellion stirring up.          

 

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