Disliking Tyrion Lannister

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

I like Tyrion because he is funny, intelligent, brave, and genuinely nice to people who are nice to him

The singer made a big play and overreached himself

The one person in his life that may have actually appreciated his qualities and his 1st wife was mutilated while he was forced to watch

His father is the ultimate non loving figure who despises him for his own appearance  and the fact Joanna died. Obviously neither is Tyrion's fault. 

Yes he is "pathetic" in ADWD bc his purpose is gone. But on the other hand I SAVED YOU PEOPLE. Stannis would have likely won the battle if not for Tyrion (even with Tyrell/Lannister alliance) Tyrion didn't "play his part" he won the battle of KL

He was a shrewd hand even Tywin could see that and if given the chance again would be the best hand of anyone in the series.

                Most Importantly 

THE SHIT NEVER FLOWED BETTER IN CASTERLY ROCK.

Tyrion is the man. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

No, it doesn't. It does say what you're saying, but it's in reference to girls who haven't flowered yet. Give us quotes. And anyway, Tywin was the one demanding he put a son on her. Not Tyrion. Tyrion objected on multiple occasions. 

 

Henry VII's mother, Lady Margaret Beaufort was 14 when she gave birth to him. 

I'll check 4 quotes when back home

yes,so. One example is the rule now. Perhaps check up on the more general statistics than use one example to then wrongly believe it's the rule

[zandru]

32 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

How many of the Tyrion detractors have gone through such trials and tribulations themselves.

Thanks for this question and your story! I'm re-warming to Tyrion, after he's been getting himself together with Jorah and Penny. He had always been, and is again, one of my favorite characters. But no, I haven't had any particularly hard times. And I'm not at all religious - many decades ago, I decided that the popular label of "agnostic" was too cowardly, and I  now admit myself to be an atheist.

Also, I'm a liberal and thus maybe more inclined to give people a little slack. This whole big kerfluffle about Tyrion not giving the corpse of a stranger enough "love" just bewilders me. I'm more concerned that he isn't reminding himself that, had he not strutted up to Catelyn Stark with a big, loud "Hi there, Lady Stark! Long time, no see! Whatcha doin' this far from Winterfell? And what's with the hooded cloak? Ya tryin' to remain incognito or somethin'? " [not an exact quote], then the attacks that metastasized into the War of the Five Kings might never have gotten started.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

I wonder.... How many of the Tyrion detractors have gone through such trials and tribulations themselves. What is the personal story arc of each Tyrion hater, and each Tyrion lover, and each Tyrion "understander" (neither loving nor hating, but getting him, nonetheless). 

 

I'm a lover. He's my favorite, and was from the get go. And I've had a helluva life. Countless trials and tribulations, from as humbling and devastating as the ones Job experienced in the Bible, to as commonplace and understandable as the ones everyone experiences. More near-death experiences than I can remember, without really sitting down and going through them all, giving 100% effort over several hours of dedicated soul wracking. Been behind bars several times. Fathered multiple children. Adopted another. Married. Separated. Divorced. More drunken moronic experiences than I care to recount. Alcoholism. Dealing with being an atheist in a family of devout Christians (all atheists are bastards in their Christian parents' eyes). Deaths everywhere. Suicides galore. Lost two people who I would've called best-friend at the time, to drug overdose and suicide. Estranged siblings. Siblings in prison for multiple years. Cancer in multiple immediate family members. Financial devastation, financial success. A rollercoaster of a life. I've loved it. But, I just wonder. Are most of Tyrion's lovers, folks who, like me, have experienced a lot of ups and downs and arounds? Are most of his haters people who've had a more arrow straight path from point A to point B? (I know that no life is devoid of trials and tribulations. I also know that some are far more so than others).

 

Also, are his haters more religious? Are his lovers less religious? 

These things intrigue me.

 

Here's to you, Giant of Lannister. May your roads be paved and clean, may your trials and tribulations make you grow (not break you down), may your women truly appreciate you, may your wine be strong and red, and may someone, someday, bear you beautiful children you can raise and love! 

 

Slainte!

Anyone who's in his 30s has experienced failure, heartbreak, betrayal, deep loss, shame, helplessness, etc..

we have a saying: every house carries a cross. No, my life certainly was never a straight arrow. 

This has little to do with inexperience, but with integrity, self-inspection or reflection. I find those traits important in an adult. Because you need them to learn from mistakes. Also I just don't easily wish ill on people, nowhere near as tyrion does. 

I don't consider him a monster, but his resentful thoughts either disgust me or annoy me. He's not my fav POV at all. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

This whole big kerfluffle about Tyrion not giving the corpse of a stranger enough "love" just bewilders me.

I didn't say precisely, but what I was trying to convey was that Tyrion didn't even pay basic respect to another person who was very gruesomely killed. He doesn't need to demonstrate "love", just minimal respect.

Does that help?

[sweetsunray]

This!

[kissdbyfire]

To say Tyrion is not my fave PoV is an understatement. And even though he has many upsetting flaws, it's his sense of entitlement and, in later books, his wallowing in self-pity that I find the most annoying. 

[HaeSuse]

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyone who's in his 30s has experienced failure, heartbreak, betrayal, deep loss, shame, helplessness, etc..

we have a saying: every house carries a cross. No, my life certainly was never a straight arrow. 

This has little to do with inexperience, but with integrity, self-inspection or reflection. I find those traits important in an adult. Because you need them to learn from mistakes. Also I just don't easily wish ill on people, nowhere near as tyrion does. 

I don't consider him a monster, but his resentful thoughts either disgust me or annoy me. He's not my fav POV at all. 

Sure, as I said, I know no one is free of trouble and pain. And I meant it as a broad question. Your response is good, and contributes. Thank you for it. But as you said to me one post above, a single example does not a statistic make. 

[HaeSuse]

50 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I'll check 4 quotes when back home

yes,so. One example is the rule now. Perhaps check up on the more general statistics than use one example to then wrongly believe it's the rule

Not claiming it's the rule. Claiming it's beyond out of the question, nor is it truly even frowned upon. And I'm asking for proof of your claim. I give you my proof from the books:

 

• Exhibit A: The entire Lannister family thinks it's fine. Or, at least, Tywin does, and then everyone follows him, in fear of his wroth. Not that they are scions of ethics and morality. 
• Exhibit B: Dany is pregnant with The Stallion Who Mounts The World at 14 years old. Again, not that the Dothraki are scions of Westerosi versions of ethics or morals either. But each example adds to the evidence, methinks.
• Exhibit C: Chapter 28 of aSoS. During the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa, Joffrey wants a bedding. No one spoke up. We didn't exactly see the responses of the crowd, but no vocal gasps, or horrified responses were noted. Which GRRM would've made a point of showing us, I think, if they had occurred.

That's all I've got right now. A Search of Ice and Fire isn't loading properly for me now, and the books aren't at hand.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

He doesn't need to demonstrate "love", just minimal respect.

No, he doesn't. We will just have to differ on the issue of Masha Heddle's rotting corpse.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

Not claiming it's the rule. Claiming it's beyond out of the question, nor is it truly even frowned upon. And I'm asking for proof of your claim. I give you my proof from the books:

 

• Exhibit A: The entire Lannister family thinks it's fine. Or, at least, Tywin does, and then everyone follows him, in fear of his wroth. Not that they are scions of ethics and morality. 
• Exhibit B: Dany is pregnant with The Stallion Who Mounts The World at 14 years old. Again, not that the Dothraki are scions of Westerosi versions of ethics or morals either. But each example adds to the evidence, methinks.
• Exhibit C: Chapter 28 of aSoS. During the wedding of Tyrion and Sansa, Joffrey wants a bedding. No one spoke up. We didn't exactly see the responses of the crowd, but no vocal gasps, or horrified responses were noted. Which GRRM would've made a point of showing us, I think, if they had occurred.

That's all I've got right now. A Search of Ice and Fire isn't loading properly for me now, and the books aren't at hand.

Here's the quote: it's Kevan's reply to Tyrion.

 

Quote

 

"She is no more than a child."

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband." (aSoS, Tyrion III)

 

 

Curiously enough, despite Kevan's insistence that Tyrion ought to consummate the marriage, he uses the phrase "fit to wed" rather than "fit to bed". And after the argued taking of the maidenhead, Kevan points out that Tyrion can wait for Sansa to grow up, and points out that it's not abnormal for husbands to wait several years to bed their bride, even if she's flowered, but still consider her too young.

 

So, while Kevan agrees with Tywin that Sansa should be deflowered ASAP, this has more to do with their intent to force marriage onto Sansa as a done deal, exactly because it isn't a consensually arranged marriage at all. If Robb Stark and Tywin had arranged for Tyrion and Sansa to be betrothed in all amicality, Kevan simply wouldn't argue "you must needs take her maidenhaid, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated."  But Sansa is a hostage and they're at war with Robb Stark, and they want Tyrion to usurp WF, knowing there's a plot that will end Robb's life. Basically, Kevan's saying, "You've got to rape Sansa once, because we're at war and we're marrying her off against her family's will, but then you can do as any other husband with a child-bride would do - wait for a year or two to bed her."

 

Meanwhile Tywin, Joffrey and Cersei are the ones on Tyrion's case that he should rape Sansa until she's with child - but neither three are "the norm" as people go. Kevan's a far more normal guy, and from his words, it's clear that he'd find it perfectly normal for a husband to wait for his child-bride to grow into a woman mentally. It's just that in this particular case he urges for the deflowering, because her family would contest the marriage if they can. 

 

While we have seen 2 female war hostages forced into marriage against their own and their family's consent, this does not seem to be the norm for marriages in Westeros. 

 

Notice also that while Lyanna was 15 when she died, and thus 14 when she was kidnapped, Ned also thinks of her as a child-woman. And yet there can't be any doubt that Lyanna had "flowered". Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon since she was 12, and she looked forward to marrying him. But the actual arranged marriage was not intended to take place until she was 17. Flowered child-brides are not the norm, but the exception, and bedding that child-bride even less, unless it's war and usurpation through forced marriage.

 

However, that said, there is admitedly a noticeable "making brides younger and bedded" in any of the books or stories co-authored or written by George after he decided to drop the 5  year gap than Cat's 17 years. So, for future books we should expect more 13-14 years old wedded and bedded girls. Once George dropped the 5 year gap, he knew he would have Arya and Sansa be still <15, and thus has to reframe the bedding of 13 years olds as the norm. That wasn't actually the case though yet for aSoS, when he still had the 5 year gap planned. 

[Sigella]

On 2017-06-28 at 8:53 PM, HaeSuse said:

1) 12-13 year old girls were expected to marry and (gasp), yes, undress in front of their husbands, in this fictional realm. Not to mention, in our own real realm, during medieval (and even much more recent than that) era. There are still places on earth where this is 100% normal and expected. Is it okay? A different question entirely. My statement was that he compares favorably to the rest of westeros. Which he does. Since any other husband would have demanded her maidenhead. He did not. Is that not better? Are you claiming he would have been more "good" to demand she go through with it?

2) No it wasn't. He could've disinherited himself on the spot by defying his father. I agree. But to hold that entirely against him is absurd. That's my point. He could've excused himself from Westeros, the Lannister family, his friends, his brother, and everything he knew, and "have done the right thing". But, man, really? How many children would've done differently, given the same circumstances? Practically none. Maybe in the end, exactly none.

3) I'm not saying he treated Penny well. I'm saying he treated her better than everyone else who came into contact with her. Again, over and over, I'm not saying he's a saint. I'm saying, compare him to everyone else put in the same situation, and he comes out reasonably well in the balance. No one else even thinks Penny deserves thought, much less compassion, measured interactions, and intimacy.

4) Agreed. Again, same thing. Compare him to the rest of Essos, since that's where it is happening, and how does he look? Down right saintly.

5) Really? "I'm willing if she is?" This is something that would even go unnoticed today, in real Earth life. Matter of fact, more so, than medieval times. Go to a bar. You'll hear it, or something similar 1000 times a night. Is it okay? That's up to each individual. But to claim that a man shouldn't make explicit jokes with women, is backwards and insane.

6) Is it right? No. What other option does he have? Nothing left for him in Westeros. And in Essos, he is doing as Essos-ians do, as it were. Not good. I agree. 100%. But compared to the societal norm? He's practically Bernie Sanders rolled into Mohatma Gandhi. 

1 Rape, murder and torture happen as well - and its still not ok. She did not want to do it and he still made her, it doesn't get moral any way you turn it, or which circumstances you apply it to.

2 Being disinherited doesn't mean as much when you're on good terms with the other heir. Same as 1.

3 I'm assuming her family treated her better, and a great deal of small-folk too.

4 Comparing to others doesn't matter.

5 Point is he was actively shaming her. Not ok.

6 4

 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually that is a false assertion. Most men would wait until their wife is older. The books mention how girls as young as Sansa may end up being married to an older man, but that the consummation of it is actually postponed until she's older... and for very good reasons. The risk of childbirth mortality is enormous with a girl that young, because she's not yet fully developed physically - hips not yet wide enough. Plenty of marriages in real history at the age of 13-14 within the highest ranks of the nobility, but the first child is often not reported to being born until the girl is about 17, and thus the actual consummation was postponed until around 16-17 years old.

So, no, both historcally and according to the books MOST husbands would wait several years before actually bedding Sansa. It's just Tywin who wants to force the consummation. That's because Tywin doesn't care whether Sansa lives or dies in childbirth. In fact, he likely prefers Sansa to die soon. All he needs is Tyrion with a trueborn child from a Stark.

Part of this is incorrect. Sansa, in Westeros, at the time Sansa married Tyrion Sansa is considered a woman grown. She flowered. Remember when she was so distraught that she tried to burn her bloody clothing and bed linen?

I'm gonna cut Tyrion some slack and give him some credit. In this instance he did not take what was his according to Westeros standards.

Historically speaking in the real life world wide ----- . young women are bought and sold as befits the family.

 

[Tianzi]

7 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

This only became his manner after the event with Tysha. Remember, he married a common girl. That's not "women are wives", and not "people belong in the social caste".

True, but

1. He was thirteen.

2. Gotta be cynical here - he had to notice he wouldn't be madly desired by women, and he points out that Tysha was the girl  who loved him even though he didn't think it's possible.

7 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

His very first romantic endeavor broke both the whore systems and the caste systems, in one fell swoop

Did it? Again, Shae, he treated her like he owned her. And about the caste system - Penny has to instruct him how to act to survive around 'tall people' because Tywin used to call them 'smallfolk' and that's the world Tyrion lived in, being a noble through and through (though having humanity towards lower social castes, which isn't the case with all nobles).

7 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

Have you been to bars? It's been a few years for me, since I got married and made 4 little whelps. But I spent quite a lot of time in them, before that. This would have been considered one of the least offensive or off-putting things said in them. Married or not. And even in the absolute worst light you can shine on it, it's a jape.

Been and heard worse, so what? Still would consider someone who says those kinds of things at least a bit of douchebag and I'm not any kind of an exception here.

Catelyn Stark on the other hand probably didn't go to too many bars and is a lady, so yeah, it's even more of a douchebaggery. (not that I'm particularly hung up on that Tyrion's comment, it's one of the less offensive ones, but it fits the pattern of his habit of verbal sexual harassment).

[sweetsunray]

So far the arguments I've seen in favor of Tyrion can be summarized as

1. He could be a worse character
2. Straw men (making claims of what others said, when they didn't) such as " This whole big kerfluffle about Tyrion not giving the corpse of a stranger enough "love" just bewilders me"
3. I can understand why he does, says and thinks hateful/bad stuff, and I can forgive him

You're making a superb case there (said in a sarcastic tone)

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

But on the other hand I SAVED YOU PEOPLE. Stannis would have likely won the battle if not for Tyrion (even with Tyrell/Lannister alliance) Tyrion didn't "play his part" he won the battle of KL

How is that "saving people" if it leaves Westeros be ruled by a sadist like Joffrey, a man like Tywin who organizes gang-rapes of 13 year old girls, wants toddlers and babies killed and their skulss bashed in, burns the Riverlands and looses the Mountain and the Bloody Mummers onto people, forces a 13 year old into a marriage with his son in order to usurp a castle, gives another 13 year old to a sadist like Ramsay, legalizes a guy like Ramsay, ...

Shouldn't he be saving people from his family, rather than Stannis who doesn't allow for any of his men to rape anyone or sack anything?

Quote

and genuinely nice to people who are nice to him

Not when they lend him a bearskin though.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

How is that "saving people" if it leaves Westeros be ruled by a sadist like Joffrey,

Hmm. So Tyrion, in order to be a "good" person, would have to be a kingslayer and a kinslayer?

The whole idea of "saving people" is fraught. Look at poor Daenerys, "saving" those girls from being raped while their families are killed, their homes destroyed, and all their friends sold into slavery. Mirri Maz Duur had a good point. We can convincingly argue that Tyrion defending King's Landing was evil because otherwise the just and sane Stannis would have become king.

I don't recall anyone asserting that Tyrion is a wonderful person. Rather, a flawed and damaged man who still has some sense of what's right, and has often struggled to do it. He got severely off track but may be on his way back. No sarcasm here.

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

So Tyrion, in order to be a "good" person, would have to be a kingslayer and a kinslayer?

I don't recall anyone asserting that Tyrion is a wonderful person.

I don't recall me asserting that those who present arguments why they favor Tyrion asserted that he is a wonderful person. So, you've just made, once again, a straw man argument.

Did I say he has to slay Joffrey? NO! There's a third option - not helping Joffery to remain in power. Stop making this into this straw see saw. You're constantly argunig a false debate.

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

who still has some sense of what's right

The same sense of right that Varys kills Kevan for. Who is the character you could be the most angry or annoyed with, the most disappointed with.

• the one who doesn't know right from wrong
• the one who is inherently incapable of doing right
• the one who knows right from wrong, is disgusted by wrong, and yet participates and aids wrong, hoping to benefit from it

Tyrion is the latter character.

 

[Raisin' Bran]

Tyrion is a grey character. He has good points, but he is also a product of his environment (Tywin's son). I love his character, but I think that if I were to meet him in real life, I would hate his guts.

55 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Shouldn't he be saving people from his family, rather than Stannis who doesn't allow for any of his men to rape anyone or sack anything?

7 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

and genuinely nice to people who are nice to him

Not when they lend him a bearskin though.

For Tyrion to be genuinely friendly (not the same a nice) with a person, that person needs to put forth an extreme effort to gain his trust. Tyrion's default attitude toward others is mistrust. The Tysha incident obviously scarred him to the point that he believed that no one would love him. Half of his family viewed him with contempt since the day he was born. The only person he felt he could rely on his whole life was his brother, and he told him a huge lie (Tysha).

I have hidden what I personally (non-canon) imagine was the early relationship between Cersei an Tyrion.

Spoiler

I imagine that Cersei may have played a number of tricks on him when he was a child. I picture a relationship where she would pretend to be nice to him, only to cruelly humiliate him when he least expected it.

I think the only way for Tyrion to feel as though he has any control of his life is to act like a tool toward others. If he keeps everyone at a distance emotionally, then he cannot get hurt (or so he has deluded himself into thinking). He is capable of compassion and has shown it, but had to dig deep within him to find it. And when he does, he makes himself emotionally vulnerable.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

We can convincingly argue that Tyrion defending King's Landing was evil because otherwise the just and sane Stannis would have become king.

Well, it is definitely pursuing a pro-Lannister agenda fueled by a deep neediness for recognition despite being fully aware of the regime he is supporting.  What comes of the Lannister victory?  Tyrion is thoroughly denied the recognition he so desperately wanted.  Full credit is given to Joffrey and Tywin.  The self-deception is that Tyrion can separate his own self-centered objectives from the consequences and still call think of himself as more decent than Tywin, Cersei, or Joffrey.  He can't.  He's willfully ignoring it like he willfully ignores that he specifically hired Shae to give him "the girlfriend experience" and treats it like a lover's betrayal for cruelly destroying that illusion when she got a better offer.  (I'm not a Shae fan here, but I do acknowledge she gave him exactly what he asked for).  That's not us readers objectively looking at the merits of Stannis winning while Tyrion is just totally unaware.  He's intimately aware of Joffrey's cruelty as an insider.   

There's a scene where he asks Sansa in all seriousness if she would like to go to Casterly Rock as a getaway from court life and she just looks at him like he's lost his mind.  Why the hell would he ever think Sansa would want to go to the seat of the family that killed hers?  That's an enormous blind spot he has.  That should be obvious to anyone how bad that suggestion is.  It's why Sansa rightly never warms up to or trusts him no matter how sympathetic she could be to his abuse.  He's showing her deep down he is pro-Lannister and his playing gallant with her doesn't change the consequences of his actions.  It amounts to bringing her deeper into her enemy's clutches no matter how he rationalizes it.