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Sigella

Disliking Tyrion Lannister

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48 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Did I say he has to slay Joffrey? NO! There's a third option - not helping Joffery to remain in power. Stop making this into this straw see saw. You're constantly argunig a false debate.

That's no doubt due to my tendency towards hyperbole. Your "third option", not supporting Joffrey, is not possible, given that Tyrion was the designated Hand of the King. He could have disavowed the responsibility, of course, and let Cersei have her way, but could then be expected to be disowned by Tywin and left penniless and disgraced. Besides, Tyrion ENJOYED exercising power, as he finally had the means to do what he thought was right.

He had to support Joffrey. It was the only way he'd retain the power to try to control Joffrey.

29 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The self-deception is that Tyrion can separate his own self-centered objectives from the consequences and still call think of himself as more decent than Tywin, Cersei, or Joffrey.  He can't.

I'm thinking you're maybe imposing too high a standard. Just because some action can be beneficial to Tyrion doesn't mean it can't be a good thing for others, too. Win-win: it's a real thing. By defending King's Landing, he's trying to protect the residents from a possible sack (like his father implemented when HE took KL) and protect the staff and nobles holed up in the Red Keep. He was named "Hand of King Joffrey"; it was his job. Tyrion also wanted to show his father he was capable. Tyrion also wanted to rein in Cersei and Joffrey's excesses. If this made him look good in Tywin's eyes, was it automatically bad?? And you're right - he got no recognition or respect (except from Garland the Good).

His interactions with Shae really point out how messed up Tyrion was with respect to women. He hired her as his whore, thought of her as his girlfriend, gave her all the material stuff, but no autonomy. It turned around and bit him.

Tyrion once again tried with Sansa, thinking of her as basically a child who he needed to protect from his family, and she was having none of it, either. Too bad. With his family background and wit, and her good looks and manners, they might have made a power couple, like Frank and Claire Underwood. It was not to be.

Why should Tyrion Lannister be faulted for pursuing a "pro-Lannister" agenda? Do we condemn Robb Stark for his pro-Stark agenda?

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Nobody in Westeros is claiming that Sansa should not be engaged, married and deflowered, willing or no. 

What a crazy thing that a marriage should depend on virginity or not. But in our world, whole religions depend on this. It's kind of hysterical prudery. I think Martincould say a lot about this directly if we asked, let's say about his shunned aunt or bastard half brothers that were ignored by his family.

.Generally,  Thr hearful reader understands Tyrions many sources of pain and his bold, brave attempts to save the day and his failings. The less prudish amongst us, the ones whose crap does stink, may have enjoyed his confession about the turtle stew, and rejoivced iin his survival in the moon cell, as he is unjustly kid napped and jailed by a violent and murderous woman, Lysa,with help from Catelyn,while we might be shocked by .shaes killing, it does seem just, in the circumstances emotionally.

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I admire a lot of things about Stannis, and he's definitely grown a lot, but if he had won the Battle of the Blackwater, I truly believe his reign would have been a disaster. He would be a competent, intelligent ruler, but he also has certain attributes that would make smallfolk and nobles alike loathe him. The biggest of these is religion. How would the smallfolk react when Stannis' men started destroying all the septs and burning the septons alive? Would Robb still be willing to bend the knee if Stannis demanded that he burn all of the Weirwood trees (remember, this is what he asked of Jon in ASOS)? Would the Ironborn relent when Red priests started showing up on their shores, telling them that their god was nothing more than a demon? The smallfolk refused Bloodraven for killing his brother in battle and being rumored to practice magic; how much more would they revile Melisandre, who uses magic to murder and manipulate, and leads most of these public sacrifices herself? Even Stalin, one of the most ruthless dictators of all time, knew better than to outright outlaw religions.

Would Stannis adapt over time? Probably. But I'm willing to bet that by that point it would already be too late. Maegor the Cruel declared war on the Faith of the Seven, and it ended up sealing his doom. How would the people of Westeros react if their king tried to destroy the Faith, the Old Gods, and the Drowned God, in exchange for a foreign religion most of them have likely never heard of? 

This isn't to say that a Lannister regime was a good idea, either--as the books have gone to show, it clearly wasn't. But in order for Stannis to be a truly great king, he needs to take some of Donal Noye's advice and learn to bend. 

I have a lot of criticisms of Tyrion, but fighting for the Lannisters in ACOK isn't one of them. What's the alternative, hang back and wait for Stannis to put his head on a spike? There's a lot of moral ambiguity in the War of the Five Kings, but I don't think it's wrong to fight for your life. 

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14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

How is that "saving people" if it leaves Westeros be ruled by a sadist like Joffrey, a man like Tywin who organizes gang-rapes of 13 year old girls, wants toddlers and babies killed and their skulss bashed in, burns the Riverlands and looses the Mountain and the Bloody Mummers onto people, forces a 13 year old into a marriage with his son in order to usurp a castle, gives another 13 year old to a sadist like Ramsay, legalizes a guy like Ramsay, ...

Shouldn't he be saving people from his family, rather than Stannis who doesn't allow for any of his men to rape anyone or sack anything?

Not when they lend him a bearskin though.

So Tyrion should have just opened the gates and asked stannis please not to hurt anyone? 

His family was at war and he was the true heir to Casterly Rock. Why would he put stannis on the throne? You are making literally zero sense.

He did try to guide both Cersei and Joffery in a better direction as hand (and was the only person besides tywin to stand up to either at the time especially on a consistent basis)

 I won't even respond to you suggesting he somehow remove his sire Tywin Lannister from his life goal of having a grandson rule westeros. That's quite unrealistic  

Shouldn't you be on a Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei dislike thread if it's his FAMILY that puts people in danger? Why is it the grotesque gargoyle dwarf's job to save them? Even when he was hand he can't exactly just chuck them all in the black cells. 

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22 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

So Tyrion should have just opened the gates and asked stannis please not to hurt anyone? 

His family was at war and he was the true heir to Casterly Rock. Why would he put stannis on the throne? You are making literally zero sense.

He did try to guide both Cersei and Joffery in a better direction as hand (and was the only person besides tywin to stand up to either at the time especially on a consistent basis)

 I won't even respond to you suggesting he somehow remove his sire Tywin Lannister from his life goal of having a grandson rule westeros. That's quite unrealistic  

Shouldn't you be on a Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei dislike thread if it's his FAMILY that puts people in danger? Why is it the grotesque gargoyle dwarf's job to save them? Even when he was hand he can't exactly just chuck them all in the black cells. 

You stressed Tyrion as this SAVIOR OF THE PEOPLEbecause his efforts were crucial in preventing Stannis from taking KL and the throne. And I point out it's nonsense to praise someone for SAVING PEOPLE when you look who that person is fighting for. Obvously people need saving from Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin, NOT from Stannis.

You completely ignore that point, and instead make it into a straw man discussion now about how logical Tyrion's choice is to save Lannisters and make sure Lannisters remain in power. I completely understand that liegemen, vassals and family members fight for their house, and this is a logical choice in a feudal society. But to claim that is automatically "saving people" is :bs:.

Tyrion saved his family and kept the throne for a sadistic fraud who's his nephew, not people. That is a logical choice, but certainly not a higher moral nor a heroic one.

Don't tell me where I should be posting. The OP of this thread is about giving arguments what you dislike about Tyrion. So, it seems to me that all the posts only listing what they love about Tyrion are off topic of this thread. And yes, criticism for a character fighting for the monsters and villains is valid criticism. It's used all the time to judge this or that character. I don't see why Tyrion should be excluded from it. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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21 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

I wonder.... How many of the Tyrion detractors have gone through such trials and tribulations themselves. What is the personal story arc of each Tyrion hater, and each Tyrion lover, and each Tyrion "understander" (neither loving nor hating, but getting him, nonetheless). 

 

I'm a lover. He's my favorite, and was from the get go. And I've had a helluva life. Countless trials and tribulations, from as humbling and devastating as the ones Job experienced in the Bible, to as commonplace and understandable as the ones everyone experiences. More near-death experiences than I can remember, without really sitting down and going through them all, giving 100% effort over several hours of dedicated soul wracking. Been behind bars several times. Fathered multiple children. Adopted another. Married. Separated. Divorced. More drunken moronic experiences than I care to recount. Alcoholism. Dealing with being an atheist in a family of devout Christians (all atheists are bastards in their Christian parents' eyes). Deaths everywhere. Suicides galore. Lost two people who I would've called best-friend at the time, to drug overdose and suicide. Estranged siblings. Siblings in prison for multiple years. Cancer in multiple immediate family members. Financial devastation, financial success. A rollercoaster of a life. I've loved it. But, I just wonder. Are most of Tyrion's lovers, folks who, like me, have experienced a lot of ups and downs and arounds? Are most of his haters people who've had a more arrow straight path from point A to point B? (I know that no life is devoid of trials and tribulations. I also know that some are far more so than others).

 

Also, are his haters more religious? Are his lovers less religious? 

These things intrigue me.

 

Here's to you, Giant of Lannister. May your roads be paved and clean, may your trials and tribulations make you grow (not break you down), may your women truly appreciate you, may your wine be strong and red, and may someone, someday, bear you beautiful children you can raise and love! 

 

Slainte!

As a detractor I still think I neither love or hate him. And I don't actually have much of a problem with murdering Tywin/Shae/Simon Silvertounge since none of them was an innocent unlike the girls in Essos.   

The only characters I feel that strongly about are Dany and Arya which I love. Don't really hate any character.

As to personal journey I can honestly say this: its not been a straight path :D 

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54 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You stressed Tyrion as this SAVIOR OF THE PEOPLEbecause his efforts were crucial in preventing Stannis from taking KL and the throne. And I point out it's nonsense to praise someone for SAVING PEOPLE when you look who that person is fighting for. Obvously people need saving from Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin, NOT from Stannis.

You completely ignore that point, and instead make it into a straw man discussion now about how logical Tyrion's choice is to save Lannisters and make sure Lannisters remain in power. I completely understand that liegemen, vassals and family members fight for their house, and this is a logical choice in a feudal society. But to claim that is automatically "saving people" is :bs:.

Tyrion saved his family and kept the throne for a sadistic fraud who's his nephew, not people. That is a logical choice, but certainly not a higher moral nor a heroic one.

Don't tell me where I should be posting. The OP of this thread is about giving arguments what you dislike about Tyrion. So, it seems to me that all the posts only listing what they love about Tyrion are off topic of this thread.

Penrose and Renly were safe from stannis. He wasn't quite so merciful to them. 

Also Tyrion did eventually kill Tywin and Joffrey (as far as "the common people" know) which eliminated more sadistic fraud Lannisters than everyone else in westeros combined and the commons hated him before and hated him after. So that infers the commons didn't need think that they needed much saving from Joffery or Tywin. 

Yes it's a fight for the throne yes Tyrion was hand of the King on that throne but it's not just about the Lannisters or Tyrion. Baelish got a LP status and Harrenhall. Loras was promoted to the highest "rank" for a knight and Margaery married that King nephew Tyrion had. It's so much bigger than Tyrion being selfish or greedy or whatever, and yet... His chain and pyromancer's piss won the battle end of story. A "little bloody gratitude" would have been nice and that does not make him like Aerys.

Im sorry I hurt your feelings and by no means was I ever "telling you where to post" I said that bc you believe 3 other Lannisters were the bigger issue than Tyrion. I'm on to the next thread if I can't even share my opinion

 

 

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12 hours ago, zandru said:

That's no doubt due to my tendency towards hyperbole.

A straw man argument means a false presentation of the arguments of the other side, so you could knock the straw man down. Hyperbole is one straw man tactic, with the addition that it does not merely intend to knock the misrepresentation down, but ridicule it. It's fake debate. A debate fallacy.

12 hours ago, zandru said:

Your "third option", not supporting Joffrey, is not possible, given that Tyrion was the designated Hand of the King. He could have disavowed the responsibility, of course, and let Cersei have her way, but could then be expected to be disowned by Tywin and left penniless and disgraced. Besides, Tyrion ENJOYED exercising power, as he finally had the means to do what he thought was right.

Mostly very well and true... It still doesn't make him a savior of people, and therefore he doesn't deserve any praise for it. Tyrion doesn't think keeping Joffrey in power is right. GRRM had Varys and Bronn present the possibility of getting rid of Joffrey somehow exactly to make it clear to the reader that Tyrion chose family over anything else, even when he himself considers those specific family members as monstrous and evil. And no, I repeat, I'm not saying that Tyrion should have killed Joffrey. The point is that Tyrion fully recognzies and knows he's choosing the morally wrong side. Tyrion did "right by his family" which inherently means he chose the monsters' side, and since he does regard them as monsters he does not believe what he's doing is "right".

And a Hand of Joffrey can serve the realm and justice and the people in more ways than the way Tyrion chose to do it. It is a parallel to Selmy later wondering what choices he made with Duskendale. Selmy was the best KG when he saved Aerys from Duskendale all by himself, but he saved one of the worst humans who believed he had absolute power and could sidestep the law, and it was up to another KG who made the moral choice between duty and saving the city and its people from being burned. If Selmy had not volunteered to rescue Aerys, and just let Tywin attack Duskendale, then Aerys would have died and Rhaegar would have been king. Would the realm have been spared from trouble then? It's not a given. But Selmy does indeed self-reflect that there was a moment where his actions decided the fate of the realm for the next 6-7 years.

And yes, that certainly is a moral dilemma that GRRM put there in purpose for Tyrion. Basically he had Tyrion appointed as Hand for young Hitler, with the power, means, intelligence and moral insight that the allies marching on Berlin are better people, and that Hitler and his closest trusted men are monsters. What does he do? Surrender Berlin to the allies behind Hitler's back or just choose the opportunity to stay high in power in the worst regime? To reframe it as "he has no choice" completely negates the dilemma that George sets up for his main characters. Jaime, Selmy, Jon, Sandor and Tyrion are set up to choose between "duty" versus what they know to be wrong or right. Obviously, Tyrion chose "family duty" over "right". Even Sandor recognizes at some point that "I only followed orders" is a very poor defense and that killing Mycah was wrong, and takes responsibility for it.

Despite the savage feudal world of duty GRRM has built and has his characters go through a series of decisions, choices and actions, George never lets them off the hook of higher human morality, because the dillemma is always about the choices of a person with a conscious who knows right from wrong - do his savage duty and use it as an excuse to silence their conscious or actually make a stand for what they know to be right in any given society.

13 hours ago, zandru said:

Tyrion once again tried with Sansa, thinking of her as basically a child who he needed to protect from his family, and she was having none of it, either. Too bad. With his family background and wit, and her good looks and manners, they might have made a power couple, like Frank and Claire Underwood. It was not to be.

What is your opinion of Sansa? Especially in relation to the marriage?

13 hours ago, zandru said:

Why should Tyrion Lannister be faulted for pursuing a "pro-Lannister" agenda? Do we condemn Robb Stark for his pro-Stark agenda?

Actually, Robb is condemned by plenty of readers for warring and refusing to bend the knee to an other king who might have been his ally. Robb is condemned by plenty of readers for plummeting the Riverlands in continued war and making demands he knows the IT will never agree with, because of his pro-Stark pursuit.

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22 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Penrose and Renly were safe from stannis. He wasn't quite so merciful to them. 

Penrose and Renly betrayed Stannis.

23 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

So that infers the commons didn't need think that they needed much saving from Joffery or Tywin. 

Ah, I guess that's why the commons support the High Sparrow so much or why they rioted.

24 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Im sorry I hurt your feelings and by no means was I ever "telling you where to post" I said that bc you believe 3 other Lannisters were the bigger issue than Tyrion. I'm on to the next thread if I can't even share my opinion

Apology accepted. I personally have no problem with you posting why you like Tyrion. It gives food for this thread to discuss, no? 

27 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

His chain and pyromancer's piss won the battle end of story. A "little bloody gratitude" would have been nice and that does not make him like Aerys.

I'm of the opinion that Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey should be on their bloody knees for what Tyrion did for them. I don't think KL commoners should though.

Choices come with consequences, and choosing to do your utmost best to keep the monsters in power comes with a price. The price for Tyrion was that he was denied what he craved the most from the monsters he helped. He almost gets killed during the Blackwater by a KG. He ends up even uglier than he was before, gets no recognition and praise, loses the power position, is refused CR, marries a child of the enemy who will never love him, is ridiculed and threatened by the boy-king he helped keep the throne, accused of the murder of said king, betrayed by his lover in multiple ways, betrayed by Varys at the trial, and discovers how Jaime betrayed him. Choosing the wrong side gets him absolutely nothing.

Tyrion only starts to admit in little ways that he chose the wrong side the day of the Purple Wedding, as he realizes that Joffrey hired the catspaw with the VS dagger that got Tyrion into trouble to begin with. That's when he realizes that his own family got him into trouble, and when the rest of his family turn on him, he breaks with them completely, culminating in the murder of his father.

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17 hours ago, Tianzi said:

True, but

1. He was thirteen.

2. Gotta be cynical here - he had to notice he wouldn't be madly desired by women, and he points out that Tysha was the girl  who loved him even though he didn't think it's possible.

Did it? Again, Shae, he treated her like he owned her. And about the caste system - Penny has to instruct him how to act to survive around 'tall people' because Tywin used to call them 'smallfolk' and that's the world Tyrion lived in, being a noble through and through (though having humanity towards lower social castes, which isn't the case with all nobles).

Been and heard worse, so what? Still would consider someone who says those kinds of things at least a bit of douchebag and I'm not any kind of an exception here.

Catelyn Stark on the other hand probably didn't go to too many bars and is a lady, so yeah, it's even more of a douchebaggery. (not that I'm particularly hung up on that Tyrion's comment, it's one of the less offensive ones, but it fits the pattern of his habit of verbal sexual harassment).

 

When I say his very first romantic endeavor, I mean Tysha, and yes, it clearly broke the caste system. She was, by all accounts, an absolute commoner. The smallest of smallfolk.

 

And I just don't see talk like that as "harassment". In a workplace? I get it. I would never. Not in a million years. But out'n'about? When the topic is already being bandied about by everyone around you? Meh. There are plenty of examples even in the books, of women, highborn, who did not get offended by such talk. Some did get offended by such talk. Was it crude and rude? Yes, you'll get no argument from me there. Did he know Cat would be offended and put off by it? He sure did. That's part of his driving reason in saying it. Was he improperly imprisoned by her, being captured at swordpoint for something he didn't do? Ayup. I cut him some slack there, for sure. And anyway, words are wind. Judge him on his deeds. Of which, he certainly is gray, not white or black. I've said that, too.

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17 hours ago, Sigella said:

1 Rape, murder and torture happen as well - and its still not ok. She did not want to do it and he still made her, it doesn't get moral any way you turn it, or which circumstances you apply it to.

2 Being disinherited doesn't mean as much when you're on good terms with the other heir. Same as 1.

3 I'm assuming her family treated her better, and a great deal of small-folk too.

4 Comparing to others doesn't matter.

5 Point is he was actively shaming her. Not ok.

6 4

:) 

1) I never said it was moral. Honestly, if you look at 90% of the actions in the books, they aren't MORAL. So what? I said judge him versus his peers. And if you do, he looks like a gallant white knight.

2) Jamie has sworn off his inheritance time and time again. Cersei is the heir, once Tywin disavows Tyrion's rights. And he's on great terms with his sweet sister, eh?

3) Family, sure. Small-folk, maybe? You'd have to ask Penny.

4) Comparing to others is what I'm doing. It matters. It always matters. If you take any of the characters, and compare them to modern times, they look archaic, immoral, and awful. Everything has to be looked at through the lenses of a medieval, lords, ladies and serfs setting. Elsewise, what are you even doing? Even the most honorable, noble, of the books, looks silly, through a modern, educated, intelligent person's eyes. Ned is OH SO NOBLE, for killing Lady! (I love Ned, FYI. This is just some devil's advocacy). Dany is SO incredibly sweet and kind for saving MMD! No. They did much better than their forebears, and did their best to better the world, where they could. It's all relative. You must compare. 

5) And she was actively falsely imprisoning him on the word of her self professed lunatic of a sister. Not even that, but a raven's word of her lunatic sister. And she even had internal doubts that he did it. But... still... marched him to his almost certain death. That GRRM wrote a nice little Deus Ex Machina in to save the Imp, doesn't relieve Cat of her guilt in her bullshit deeds. And that's 1000 times worse than making a jape such as that. He didn't even say anything truly nasty, as he could've. "I'm willing if she's willing". I can't believe that's even a topic of discussion here. No worries.

6) Yeah, I get it. It's horrible to compare versus others. Yup. Lunacy.

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Can Polls be done, here? I've got a better way to split who likes him and who doesn't, and from this thread, it's painfully obvious.

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On 6/27/2017 at 2:39 PM, Sigella said:

Yeah I'm up for a Tyrion-roast.

Starting with the obvious, I hate him looking like some hideous monster from a Grim fairytale. Sorry. Dressed-up-hideous-monster-from-a-Grim-fairytale.

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Prefer the show Tyrion who at least has some redeeming features, and doesn't dress quite as flamboyant..

Beyond aesthetic regrets, why oh why does he have to say such awful things to people like always? I fully expect his first words to Dany will be "where do whores go?". Like, I say offensive stuff too but I feel bad about it while he just doesn't. He only regrets when it gets him in trouble. He never regrets making people feel uncomfortable or hurting their feelings or such.

 

Really wish he had a healthier view on women. Really wish he'd be morally above sleeping with slaves (Illyrios manse). 

 

Really hope Sweetrobin and the moon-door will have their way with him.

I can understand why many readers don't like Tyrion.  He's abrasive and he gets away with a lot of offensive behavior because he hides behind the Lannister name.  Killing his dad on the jon was neither self-defense nor necessary.  That made him a kinslayer.  I just want to say that Tyrion is not beyond redemption.  He can serve Daenerys and helps her reach her goals.  That would completely redeem Tyrion in my eyes.  I am a Daenerys supporter.  My opinion of Tyrion would greatly change if he serves Daenerys and stays loyal to her.

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15 minutes ago, HaeSuse said:

Can Polls be done, here? I've got a better way to split who likes him and who doesn't, and from this thread, it's painfully obvious.

I find the arguments far more interesting than the poster's background, as that starts to lean to Ad Hominem fallacies, where people hope to dismiss someone's arguments because of who they are than the argument by its own merrits or faults.

Edited by sweetsunray

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I feel I have cheated a bit when forming my opinion of Tyrion since I started reading the books after I heard the show 'fucked up' Dorne and there was a fAegon. I do completely understand why you're all so strongly opinionated. So I will first say why I think Tyrion is both disliked and liked more than he should be.

 

Liked
1. Dinklage just makes him so god damn likable in the show. I know they take some of the more horrible, small stuff he does out of his story in the show, like 'where do whores go' or the stuff with the Inkeep hanging from the tree, showing his dwarfdick to a naked Sansa etc. But it's mostly thanks to Dinklage we want to root for Tyrion. In the show I strongly rooted for him, he was BY FAR my favourite character. 

2. GRRM clearly put a lot of himself in the character, liking him the most. I think he said he had to split up AFfC and ADwD because he had written twenty or so Tyrion chapters. If a author likes a character that often translates to the reader, even if they put him through a lot of shit and make him a pretty bad guy.

3. Tyrion is the type of character most of the readers, I suspect, want to be when we read ASOIAF. I don't want to offend anyone by making hasty generalizations, but I suspect most of us aren't the most athletic types. We're not towering men or people who trained extensively. We're not the most brave, galant people. We've read ASOIAF, we're realists. And I think most of us aren't the handsome, skilled Jaime types, we're the (slightly) unpopular, witty types. And to see a character whose insecurities are completely justified, who's tormented by his past, not by trivial things we experience today, who's smarter than most, who tried and tried again. Hand of the King Tyrion is still my favourite character, although not the most intriguing. Also important, he's never been manipulated. Ned, Jon, Cat, Robb, Dany, Stannis(in the beginning, can't forgive him for his religious extremism), Jaime, the Hound all fell for ruses. They were mislead, misguided and manipulated. Tyrion knew what was going on. That's very attractive to us readers trying to figure it all out. 

4. He's funny. We like the funny dude. That's why Stannis is more popular than I suspected before reading the books

Disliked
1. popularity. If something is liked a lot, people who dislike it always feel the need to express themselves a little stronger. You feel you need to shout louder, since there are less voices agreeing with you.
2. He's miserable. It's no fun to visit the mind of a dark, twisted, depressed, scarred individual. His 'where do whores go' frankly annoyed me. Some of those dark fantasies of him, such as raping Cercei, probably to death, were pretty disturbing. It strongly reminded me of a person very close to me went through a phase of automutilation. These dark, sudden, fleeting feelings of having to hurt someone or yourself. 
3. I didn't like the character went a certain way, but that doesn't make me dislike the character.
4. He did some really bad things. Most people above have already written them out, most eloquently once again by @sweetsunray(love u dude). Although most of his actions are grey, sometimes approaching evil, sometimes approaching true greatness, his thoughts are often very black. 
5. He's spiteful. Spitefulness is a emotion we instinctively dislike and strive to not feel. To read someone thinking those thoughts goes against what we feel we should be thinking.

I personally still like Tyrion a lot. I feel I understand why he's dislikable, why he's depressed, why he's become a bad person (for now). And that's why I can personally forgive him and hope he ends up ok. I couldn't be Jaime(with a right hand) or Arthur Dayne, or Rhaegar, or even Littlefinger. But I could be Tyrion. Also I strongly relate to trying and trying again, failing, and giving up. 

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1 minute ago, Ethelarion said:

Someone claiming to be a woman on the internet? You must be a fat, 45 year old, neck bearded guy. 

nearly 1 in 3 correct... only the age: detract 2 years.

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1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

And I just don't see talk like that as "harassment". In a workplace? I get it. I would never. Not in a million years. But out'n'about? When the topic is already being bandied about by everyone around you? Meh. There are plenty of examples even in the books, of women, highborn, who did not get offended by such talk. Some did get offended by such talk. Was it crude and rude? Yes, you'll get no argument from me there. Did he know Cat would be offended and put off by it? He sure did. That's part of his driving reason in saying it. Was he improperly imprisoned by her, being captured at swordpoint for something he didn't do? Ayup. I cut him some slack there, for sure. And anyway, words are wind. Judge him on his deeds. Of which, he certainly is gray, not white or black. I've said that, too.

I judge him mostly by his deeds.

And I've said that he is gray. And that overall I like him.

But I've also said that I think his habit of choosing to say something sexual related when he wants to insult women - whether or not the act of insult itself is justified - reflects badly on him.

And yes, if you know that the woman in question will be offended and put off, it's clearly a sexual harassment and that's your damn intent in this case.

1 hour ago, HaeSuse said:

When I say his very first romantic endeavor, I mean Tysha, and yes, it clearly broke the caste system. She was, by all accounts, an absolute commoner. The smallest of smallfolk.

Then we can say that what Tysha broke Tywin restored, because following that incident Tyrion still has a mindset of a nobleman (although more empathetic than most in some aspects).

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Penrose and Renly betrayed Stannis.

Ah, I guess that's why the commons support the High Sparrow so much or why they rioted.

Apology accepted. I personally have no problem with you posting why you like Tyrion. It gives food for this thread to discuss, no? 

I'm of the opinion that Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey should be on their bloody knees for what Tyrion did for them. I don't think KL commoners should though.

Choices come with consequences, and choosing to do your utmost best to keep the monsters in power comes with a price. The price for Tyrion was that he was denied what he craved the most from the monsters he helped. He almost gets killed during the Blackwater by a KG. He ends up even uglier than he was before, gets no recognition and praise, loses the power position, is refused CR, marries a child of the enemy who will never love him, is ridiculed and threatened by the boy-king he helped keep the throne, accused of the murder of said king, betrayed by his lover in multiple ways, betrayed by Varys at the trial, and discovers how Jaime betrayed him. Choosing the wrong side gets him absolutely nothing.

Tyrion only starts to admit in little ways that he chose the wrong side the day of the Purple Wedding, as he realizes that Joffrey hired the catspaw with the VS dagger that got Tyrion into trouble to begin with. That's when he realizes that his own family got him into trouble, and when the rest of his family turn on him, he breaks with them completely, culminating in the murder of his father.

1. Ok? The point is he killed them with sorcery. And Penrose certainly did not betray anyone. He did his duty to Robert and to Renly. How can you sit there and talk about Tyrion's wrong doings while backing a man who is literally selling his soul to kill a brother and completely innocent man? 

There's no DNA testing Stannis is only the true king of westeros if he wins, otherwise he's just another usurper.

2. So they would go with a king who keeps a mistress that worships a demon fire god who loves burning people? And that destroys septs and statues of the 7? 

3. Yeah I thought we might discuss the other side of the coin until you jumped down my throat. 

4. Yes his family should be greatful. These people aren't just commons. Tyrion has the thoughts of "savior" during his trial. It's the ass-kissers he saved who should thank him. (And the small folk as well but we disagree)

5. I've already made it clear why he sided with the people with the same last name as himself. Yes he got screwed.... It's that kind of story 

 

 

 

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