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Disliking Tyrion Lannister


Sigella

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35 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

1. Ok? The point is he killed them with sorcery. And Penrose certainly did not betray anyone. He did his duty to Robert and to Renly. How can you sit there and talk about Tyrion's wrong doings while backing a man who is literally selling his soul to kill a brother and completely innocent man?

Straw man again. Just because I compare Stannis favourably over Renly and Joffrey, that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Stannis. When I said that they "betrayed" Stannis, I didn't say that as if I'm a Stannis supporter, but simply stating the fact that they were actual traitors. The difference is that Renly was a traitor for selfish reasons, while Penrose was a traitor for the best reasons.

I don't care whatsoever about Stannis's shadow killing Renly. Stannis cares more about it, than I do. Renly's a cheap opportunist imo, with little to no morals. He isn't a monstrous person like Joffrey, but he only cares about doing what's best for himself. He was given a chance, an offer, and he rejected it. He was given a warning, and he ignored it. And his death prevented a battle that shouldn't have to be taking place anyway.

As for Penrose: if we go by "duty", then Penrose was certainly in the wrong. As castellan of Storm's End his duty is to the Baratheon bloodline right? Robert's dead and so is Renly. There's only one Baratheon left. So, according to "duty" Penrose should be doing his duty by Stannis. If you're going to pull the "duty" card, then Penrose is guilty as hell of treason. That said - if "duty" is a shit excuse for Sandor, KG, and Tyrion to me, it's a shit excuse for Penrose if he actually had done his "duty" and surrendered Robert's bastard son to Stannis's priestess Mel. As a human being Penrose chose the higher road than duty, and refused to surrender Storm's End because he feared what might happen to a child. 

As for sorcery - whether you kill a man sitting on a privy with his pants down with a crossbow or by using a magical shadow makes little difference to me. Both are murders committed in a way or when the target is incapable of defending themselves. How can you be upset over Stannis's shadow killing Renly, but not Tyrion shooting his defenseless father? And once again, don't misunderstand me - I care as little about Tywin dying than Renly dying.

Compared to Joffrey and Tywin, Stannis is a saint (and I don't think he is saint). We've got a boy ordering men (knight or no) to fight to the death for his own pleasure, whether they did anything or not. Tywin slaughters a whole house, children, servants, kin, etc, getting KL sacked in the worst way. And then Stannis who accepted the surrender of Dragonstone without killing anyone, and who has had 2 men murdered by the time of the Blackwater. I will go farther. So far - I repeat, so far - Stannis has been a better man in actions than Tyrion. And yes, I expect Stannis to take a turn that I will end up condemning him.

Do you know of Stannis making someone into a stew as cannibal food for others? I don't. In fact, I recall him having his own knights executed for eating the meat of the dead. Meanwhile Tyrion orders Symon to be killed. You could argue that he did so, because Symon blackmailed him. And yet, it must be said that all the singer wanted was for Tyrion to help him get on the list of singers of the Purple Wedding. Wow, what an evil blackmailer! (sarcastically said). And Shae was so worth it, right? It wouldn't surprise me if Shae was the one who informed all the servants that he wasn't getting any with Sansa. 

Do you know of Stannis arming men to rape and pillage a region? I don't. In fact, Stannis has his soldiers gelded for rape. But Tyrion has the Mountain Clans of the Vale armed with the intent to have them wreak havoc in the Vale. And it works. At least one of those Clans raided, plundered and raped a village (though I don't think every Clan is like that). Innocent women and children and men suffer because of him, and he wants them to suffer, just because fate gave them a lousy woman to rule them. And in contrast, Stannis stops an army of people with many who'd murder, pillage and rape whomever crosses their path. So, he stops those, but accepts those willing to be lawful citizens in return for safety, a home and food.

I can't for the life of me imagine Stannis raping a slave, kill people for his enjoyment, or go Castamere on women and children. But oh my, Stannis used sorcery!!! :rolleyes:

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

There's no DNA testing Stannis is only the true king of westeros if he wins, otherwise he's just another usurper.

Irrelevant, when Tyrion perfectly knows, like Ned Stark, that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are the produce of incest between Cersei and Jaime.

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

So they would go with a king who keeps a mistress that worships a demon fire god who loves burning people? And that destroys septs and statues of the 7?

And yet, so far, in the past 2 years, she has only been allowed to burn one person - a traitor, who'd have married his daughter off to a bastard born out of incest to save his own skin.

Now I'm not a fan of destroying heritage artifacts, but burning statues of the 7 - worst crime against humanity ever! :rolleyes: As for Septs... Bloody Mummers and the Mountain's Men raid septs and torture and murder septons, brothers, septas and silent sisters. Tywin knows they do this. He picked them for it. And Tyrion knows it too. Which matters the most? The people or the building? You sure know to pick your arguments.

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Yeah I thought we might discuss the other side of the coin until you jumped down my throat. 

Don't pretend to be the innocent victim here. You know perfectly well I pointed out your first post could be seen as being off-topic AFTER you told me to post somewhere else. And I didn't even tell you to post somewhere else.

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

It's the ass-kissers he saved who should thank him.

The ass-kissers would have turend and surrendered and kissed Stannis's ass. Would Stannis allow it? Sure. He welcomed those who ran from Renly to him, didn't he?

2 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I've already made it clear why he sided with the people with the same last name as himself. Yes he got screwed.... It's that kind of story 

You missed my point. I wasn't asking for clarification or defense of why Tyrion chose family over doing what's actually right. I was pointing out that everything that followed after the Blackwater proved to Tyrion he made the wrong choice. To expect gratitude and fairness and rewards from a sadist, a narcissist and a psychopath is folly to begin with. Tyrion learned it the very hard way. It's not just that kind of story. It's that kind of reality. 

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5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I find the arguments far more interesting than the poster's background, as that starts to lean to Ad Hominem fallacies, where people hope to dismiss someone's arguments because of who they are than the argument by its own merrits or faults.

 

I agree, wholeheartedly! However, let's say that it gets down to "Oh. Em. Gee. So-and-so made a rude comment to such-and-such!" and some people find that very thing repulsive, utterly repugnant, and despicable. And some people say "Wut? How is that bad?"

Then, I find it interesting the demographics and background of the people who side one way, or side the other. No different than politics. Some people think it's impossible to understand why someone would want to pay more taxes, in order to give more people health care. Some other people think it's morally repugnant to NOT want to do so. Is there a moral prerogative there? I think there is, personally. But guess what, the people on the other side of the fence do, too. No one on either side of that battle thinks "I'm a terrible person for believing what I believe". If anything, they think that about the OTHER side.

But it's still interesting to note specific demographic features of either side of that argument. Why would it not be? And, if it wasn't interesting, then the 7 trillion articles, tweets, podcasts, news reels, etc wouldn't exist.

Is it the be all end all to say... "the education level of side A is X, and the education of level of side B is Y"? Nope. But is it interesting? You betcha!

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4 hours ago, Tianzi said:

I judge him mostly by his deeds.

And I've said that he is gray. And that overall I like him.

But I've also said that I think his habit of choosing to say something sexual related when he wants to insult women - whether or not the act of insult itself is justified - reflects badly on him.

And yes, if you know that the woman in question will be offended and put off, it's clearly a sexual harassment and that's your damn intent in this case.

Then we can say that what Tysha broke Tywin restored, because following that incident Tyrion still has a mindset of a nobleman (although more empathetic than most in some aspects).

If anyone claims he's black or white, then they missed the boat. He's clearly gray as gray can be. I agree. To your second point I'd say, he equally makes sexual jokes to/about men. It's not sexism, then, just crassness. Right? And is being crass so bad, when placed in the moral cosmic scales? Nah. I tend to actually like it. Probably because I myself am crass. I see that. I'm not blind to it. 

 

And, in your eyes, is it sexual harassment when he makes equally crude jokes about men? Or is it only so when it's the opposite sex? What if he was gay? Would it only be sexual harassment then, if it was towards men? This also is as gray as gray comes. 

 

If I make a joke about your religion, is is religious harassment? About your worldview is it worldview harassment?

 

Quoting the great Salman Rushdie: “Nobody has the right to not be offended. That right doesn't exist in any declaration I have ever read. If you are offended it is your problem, and frankly lots of things offend lots of people."

 

Same goes here. If such crude jokes offend you, and someone says them, don't be around them. Easy as pie. And in places where you CAN'T avoid them (like work) there are almost always protections in place. And when being improperly imprisoned for something you didn't do, I think we can cut someone some slack for taking an "offensive" tact toward their captor/abuser/torturer/accuser. 

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I already like this thread. I generally understand his (some) plight and can sympathize, but he was never one of my favorite characters despite his popularity. I really did dislike him during the bedding with Sansa. Generally I don't quite give a shit about Tyrion, but his fans so often make me dislike him or how they're pushing for Tyrion x Sansa so Tyrion can finally be appreciated or something.

 

Hello? Sansa might initially appear shallow, but if she was still supposed to redeem herself of her shallowness GRRM would never have written the Hound into her story and have them interact. It's also perfectly understandable that Sansa wants nothing to do with Tyrion and it's not only because of his ugliness.

 

I'm gonna agree with some people who say that Tyrion was very naive in regards to Shae, and although I generally found unlikable, I can understand if she was been coerced to testify against him and if she was not given much of a choice in regards to sleeping with Tywin. of course there's a good chance that she was more than willing in exchange for rewards and gifts, but still, it was obvious to everyone but Tyrion that she saw him as a moving wallet.

 

I haven't read the replies here, cause they're seven pages long, but am I the only one bothered by Tyrion raping Tysha? I understand that it was a shock to him to find out she was a "whore", but didn't it upset him at all that Tysha must have probably been very visibly upset when she was been passed around by Lannister guards? I can't imagine that Tysha wasn't displaying extreme discomfort and shock when she was been raped. In what universe does anyone see a visibly shaken person, even a prostitute, and proceeds to rape them. In the back of my head I'm thinking that Tyrion must have wanted to inflict pain to her since he was treated like that, so a part of him must have done it out of sadism. Not to mention that it wouldn't be the first time he's acted in that sort of way as he did commit a crime of passion by killing Shae. Can't understand how this eludes some people. On one hand, I keep thinking "He's 13, and he witnessed a very traumatizing scene and found out a very painful truth, he must not be in a healthy state of mind to do such a thing". But then I think, even if he did start out to rape her, didn't her whatever reaction and the body language she was conveying discouraging him at all or make him stop? I dunno, this is my biggest beef with Tyrion.

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54 minutes ago, Lifestream said:

but am I the only one bothered by Tyrion raping Tysha? I understand that it was a shock to him to find out she was a "whore", but didn't it upset him at all that Tysha must have probably been very visibly upset when she was been passed around by Lannister guards? I can't imagine that Tysha wasn't displaying extreme discomfort and shock when she was been raped. In what universe does anyone see a visibly shaken person, even a prostitute, and proceeds to rape them. In the back of my head I'm thinking that Tyrion must have wanted to inflict pain to her since he was treated like that, so a part of him must have done it out of sadism. Not to mention that it wouldn't be the first time he's acted in that sort of way as he did commit a crime of passion by killing Shae. Can't understand how this eludes some people. On one hand, I keep thinking "He's 13, and he witnessed a very traumatizing scene and found out a very painful truth, he must not be in a healthy state of mind to do such a thing". But then I think, even if he did start out to rape her, didn't her whatever reaction and the body language she was conveying discouraging him at all or make him stop? I dunno, this is my biggest beef with Tyrion.

No, you're not the only one. This is one of the most "don't mention it" aspects of Tyrion's past. Now, I can understand that Tyrion was in shock, very young and at an impressionable age of 13 - that during the gang-rape and when Tywin made him go last, he went through cognitive-dissonance. I think he focused on the coins that were pressed into her hand and saw that as confirming evidence that she was a whore at the time. But really, by the time he learns from Jaime that she was not a whore hired by Jaime 14 years have passed - more years than the age he had at the time. 14 years from teen into adulthood and being in the second half of his 20s. That is so long a denial that it becomes more than "it's Tywin's fault". I can only conclude that either Tyrion does not believe a whore can be raped, or that in his mind she deserved to be raped because she was only a whore. His intentions to see fear in the eyes of the bedwarmer at Illyrio's mansion and his rape of the slave at Selhorys become deeply disturbing because of it.

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, you're not the only one. This is one of the most "don't mention it" aspects of Tyrion's past. Now, I can understand that Tyrion was in shock, very young and at an impressionable age of 13 - that during the gang-rape and when Tywin made him go last, he went through cognitive-dissonance. I think he focused on the coins that were pressed into her hand and saw that as confirming evidence that she was a whore at the time. But really, by the time he learns from Jaime that she was not a whore hired by Jaime 14 years have passed - more years than the age he had at the time. 14 years from teen into adulthood and being in the second half of his 20s. That is so long a denial that it becomes more than "it's Tywin's fault". I can only conclude that either Tyrion does not believe a whore can be raped, or that in his mind she deserved to be raped because she was only a whore. His intentions to see fear in the eyes of the bedwarmer at Illyrio's mansion and his rape of the slave at Selhorys become deeply disturbing because of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was both because they'd be perfectly in like with Tyrions character imo.

I can believe that Tyrion might believe or accept (on the surface) that whores can't be raped, but at the same times he can read the body language of those unwilling and it does seem to get through him, even if he decides to do the opposite of the right thing and act as monstrously as possible. And I think he does it as a sort of punishment for looking at him in disgust. it really feels like it's more regaining the power he's lost than anything else.

This could also be applied to the case of Tysha. It would make perfect sense if Tyrion felt like he regained his self-esteem or some control when he raped Tysha, but he seems to present himself as a complete victim which is of course something he does often.

 

It's very hard to decide on what side to stand and how to view his nature. Cause understandable, he's going through very hard times, both when the rape occurs, and later when he forces himself on the slave and he's in no way his normal self. But he has exhibited cruelty even when he's his usual self, just not sexual I guess?

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This is tricky... I am not a fan of Tyrion for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. I keep waiting for his redemption, I do, but it never comes. IF there is a redemption arc for him then he is supposed to be on it now seeing as how George said Tyrion's early Dance saga was his (Tyrion's) darkest hour, and by the end (or near to) Tyrion has chosen to live. I just don't see it yet. I fear that Tysha is his own "Jenny of Oldstones" and not ever finding her will leave him morbid, and weepy, and cynical. Penny doesn't seem long for the Meereen arc either, and she was the only thing giving Tyrion any sort of grounding with the little people/tall people teachings.

TWOW stuff under the secret eye...

Spoiler

George says that Tyrion and Dany will meet up, in a way, and I am not sure that sounds like a good thing for Tyrion if he is on a redemption arc because Dany sounds like her coin is flipping and landing dragon-tails up... very possibly not a good thing. From the article linked below:

I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)

http://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is tricky... I am not a fan of Tyrion for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. I keep waiting for his redemption, I do, but it never comes. IF there is a redemption arc for him then he is supposed to be on it now seeing as how George said Tyrion's early Dance saga was his (Tyrion's) darkest hour, and by the end (or near to) Tyrion has chosen to live. I just don't see it yet. I fear that Tysha is his own "Jenny of Oldstones" and not ever finding her will leave him morbid, and weepy, and cynical. Penny doesn't seem long for the Meereen arc either, and she was the only thing giving Tyrion any sort of grounding with the little people/tall people teachings.

TWOW stuff under the secret eye...

  Reveal hidden contents

George says that Tyrion and Dany will meet up, in a way, and I am not sure that sounds like a good thing for Tyrion if he is on a redemption arc because Dany sounds like her coin is flipping and landing dragon-tails up... very possibly not a good thing. From the article linked below:

I also asked Martin about one extremely eagerly anticipated character pairing: Tyrion and Daenerys. What will their interaction be like?

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”

That “coming home” should get fans excited—unless Martin was merely speaking metaphorically. (The Targaryen words are “Fire and Blood.”)

http://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

 

At this point, I'm thinking that Tyrion and Dany's relationship isn't going to pan out the way fans expect it to. Dany has so far taken all of Quaithe's prophecies to heart, and she did warn Dany against trusting "the lion." And I can see why--Tyrion doesn't really care if Dany lives or dies so long as he gets the revenge he craves. He's starting to show signs of forgiveness towards Jaime, but as a lot of other posters have pointed out, Tyrion is like his father in how he holds grudges against anyone he doesn't believe properly appreciates him, and that's a long list of people at the moment. I could see Tyrion becoming an enemy of Dany's, although I honestly don't know which way his plot is heading in the next book.

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13 hours ago, Lifestream said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was both because they'd be perfectly in like with Tyrions character imo.

I can believe that Tyrion might believe or accept (on the surface) that whores can't be raped, but at the same times he can read the body language of those unwilling and it does seem to get through him, even if he decides to do the opposite of the right thing and act as monstrously as possible. And I think he does it as a sort of punishment for looking at him in disgust. it really feels like it's more regaining the power he's lost than anything else.

This could also be applied to the case of Tysha. It would make perfect sense if Tyrion felt like he regained his self-esteem or some control when he raped Tysha, but he seems to present himself as a complete victim which is of course something he does often.

 

It's very hard to decide on what side to stand and how to view his nature. Cause understandable, he's going through very hard times, both when the rape occurs, and later when he forces himself on the slave and he's in no way his normal self. But he has exhibited cruelty even when he's his usual self, just not sexual I guess?

I'd say that in actuality Tyrion has a deep self-loathing and hatred, but that he does not wish to recognize to himself, and instead he projects it outward, by loathing and hating and looking down upon almost everyone else. He tries to remedy that imo with his immature need in approval by others in aCoK and aSoS, favorably those who are the least likely to give it.

When people say Tyrion is so dark in aDwD, I'm sort of puzzled, because I think he always had that type of self-loathing - he just always externelized it to others for me. aDwD is just the first book where he includes himself in that darkness, targets himself. For me that's actually progress. He cannot solve his self-loathing, without first realizing he does.

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

keep waiting for his redemption, I do, but it never comes.

. It's weird. I find aCoK and aSoS Tyrion the most annoying Tyrion. His whole "Shae!" thing frustrates me the most, and it only gets worse in aSoS. She takes a lot of his focus, and she's just not ever worth it. She's this shallow gold digger, and what he can get from her is well just sex. In aCoK, she occasionally has moments of being smart (like when she recognizes Varys in his begging brother disguise), but in aSoS, she doesn't even have those anymore. She becomes thus utterly stupid and thereby very dangerous lover. 

For instance, he starts out in aSoS wanting to discover who got Mandon to try and kill him at the Blackwater. The last time we hear of that, unresolved, is in his second chapter. And he totally drops figuring that one out, and replaces it with "I've got to see Shae". And then for several chapters that takes most of his focus. Not that there isn't interesting stuff in those aSoS chapters, but it's like Tyrion turned a knob and tells himself - I'm not gonna pay attention to things and try to figure stuff out, but get drunk on Shae instead, and use Varys as a glorified pimp. Only during the chapters of the Purple Wedding does he become astute again.

BTW I think someone said that Tyrion always sees through people and figures everything out... well, no, he doesn't. He only has a better success rate in eventually figuring stuff out if he keeps his focus, but he also often starts out with wrong and prejudiced assumptions and drops investigations all the time too. For example the Ser Mandon mystery. He's certain Cersei was behind it. He wants to prove that. But Cersei had plenty of chances to see him killed by poison or otherwise while he lay in a fog in his cell, healing from his wounds. Both Varys and Bronn give him a story that tells us that Mandon has ties to the Vale. He doesn't even ever think - hmmm, maybe LF has got something to do with it. Or for that matter Varys. For some mysterious reason he keeps thinking that Varys is a friend to him. But Varys warns him of having beef with people who use magic, and the whole wilfdfire lake he creates is use of magic. Varys refuses to show the back of his tongue about Mandon, only telling Tyrion what he already found out through Bronn, took Shae's jewelry and refused to return it to her when she asked for it when Tyrion lay dying. All he does for Tyrion until  the escape is set up his meetings with Shae. Varys is playing him, placating him, keeping him "drunk". And that Tyrion falls for it so easily, even seems to frustrate Varys himself. It's almost as if Varys thinks to himself, "Do you give up that easily? I just arrange for you to see Shae, and you just dumb down 10 levels. Is it that easy to fool you?" He never wonders about that poor excuse of a stone bed in Varys's "room" and "I've got a bad back".

Someone's spreading the fact that Sansa is still a virgin and he assumes that Sansa herself spread the tale. Euhm what? Sansa has nothing to gain to spread that tale. Meanwhile you've got Shae constantly begging with Sansa and Tyrion for her to be present at the Wedding feast, Shae suggesting he'd put some sweetsleep in Sansa's drink so they can fuck in his marriage bed. He thinks Symon is dangerous? Shae is the greedy, dangerous one with dreams of becoming a princess. More and more, Shae basically wants Tyrion to out her as his mistress and show the world he fucks her instead of Sansa. As a servant in the castle she can talk to anyone of the personnel who sniggers at Tyrion. And of course, Varys is the second candidate who has the easiest means to have it known. 

Only when he's in his cell, does he realize that Varys isn't "his friend" anymore. But Varys hasn't been a friend for a long time. He just jingled the Shae-key to distract and pacify Tyrion for months, and otherwise remained mum about anything. The guy has the Rugen identity and access to the black cells in disguise. Unlike with Ned, we never get such a visit. No, Varys very much stays away, and uses every convo he ever had with Tyrion to get him condemned on his trial. Is Shae the nail in his coffin? Or is it Varys who verifies every account? Sure, he saves Tyrion, after Jaime put a sword to this throat, the sole person left, aside from Tywin, whose acquaintance with Varys goes back as far as Aerys II.

Ok, so he figures out JonCon and Aegon, but he's still fooled by Lemore and Haldon when it comes to figuring them out. He knows Lemore has a secret, but as long as she swims naked in the river, he thinks to himself she can keep her secret. Only when she wears something else to go into Selhorys does he think "Hmmm, maybe her secret matters?" And not ever does he even wonder, "Hmmm, this Haldon knows a lot of history, languages, cyvasse, math, as good as any maester I've ever had, so why the hell is he only a halfmaester?" Instead, he only thinks of Haldon in terms of competition to outsmart on cyvasse and historical knowledge.

Anyway, overall he just is so easily distracted, and uncommitted. Speaking of a "coin flip". That is what he does in the Crossroads Inn, right before recognizing Cat and getting himself kidnapped into an unexpected adventure - throw up a coin (flip a coin). He throws several coins all at once in the brothel of Selhorys, right before Jorah kidnaps him to go on another unexpected adventure. Spilling wine gets him to be ordered to go to KL as Hand. Spilling wine gets him accused of murder. Spilling wine on a carpet in Selhorys gets kidnapped by Jorah. Whores, wine and gold coins are his vices and throw him into one unexpected misadventure after another.  

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'd say that in actuality Tyrion has a deep self-loathing and hatred, but that he does not wish to recognize to himself, and instead he projects it outward, by loathing and hating and looking down upon almost everyone else. He tries to remedy that imo with his immature need in approval by others in aCoK and aSoS, favorably those who are the least likely to give it.

When people say Tyrion is so dark in aDwD, I'm sort of puzzled, because I think he always had that type of self-loathing - he just always externelized it to others for me. aDwD is just the first book where he includes himself in that darkness, targets himself. For me that's actually progress. He cannot solve his self-loathing, without first realizing he does.

. It's weird. I find aCoK and aSoS Tyrion the most annoying Tyrion. His whole "Shae!" thing frustrates me the most, and it only gets worse in aSoS. She takes a lot of his focus, and she's just not ever worth it. She's this shallow gold digger, and what he can get from her is well just sex. In aCoK, she occasionally has moments of being smart (like when she recognizes Varys in his begging brother disguise), but in aSoS, she dosn't even have those anymore. She becomes thus itterly stupid and thereby very dangerous lover. 

For instance, he starts out in aSoS wanting to discover who got Mandon to try and kill him at the Blackwater. The last time we hear of that, unresolved, is in his second chapter. And he totally drops figuring that one out, and replaces it with "I've got to see Shae". And then for several chapters that takes most of his focus. Not that there isn't interesting stuff in those aSoS chapters, but it's like Tyrion turned a knob and tells himself - I'm not gonna pay attention to things and try to figure stuff out, but get drunk on Shae instead, and use Varys as a glorified pimp. Only during the chapters of the Purple Wedding does he become astute again.

BTW I think someone said that Tyrion always sees through people and figures everything out... well, no, he doesn't. He only has a better success rate in eventually figuring stuff out if he keeps his focus, but he also often starts out with wrong and prejudiced assumptions and drops investigations all the time too. For example the Ser Mandon mystery. He's certain Cersei was behind it. He wants to prove that. But Cersei had plenty of chances to see him killed by poison or otherwise while he lay in a fog in his cell, healing from his wounds. Both Varys and Bronn give him a story that tells us that Mandon has ties to the Vale. He doesn't even ever think - hmmm, maybe LF has got something to do with it. Or for that matter Varys. For some mysterious reason he keeps thinking that Varys is a friend to him. But Varys warns him of having beef with people who use magic, and the whole wilfdfire lake he creates is use of magic. Varys refuses to show the back of his tongue about Mandon, only telling Tyrion what he already found out through Bronn, took Shae's jewelry and refused to return it to her when she asked for it when Tyrion lay dying. All he does for Tyrion until  the escape is set up his meetings with Shae. Varys is playing him, placating him, keeping him "drunk". And that Tyrion falls for it so easily, even seems to frustrate Varys himself. It's almost as if Varys thinks to himself, "Do you give up that easily? I just arrange for you to see Shae, and you just dumb down 10 levels. Is it that easy to fool you?" He never wonders about that poor excuse of a stone bed in Varys's "room" and "I've got a bad back".

Someone's spreading the fact that Sansa is still a version and he assumes that Sansa herself spread the tale. Euhm what? Sansa has nothing to gain to spread that tale. Meanwhile you've got Shae constantly begging with Sansa and Tyrion for her to be present at the Wedding feast, Shae suggesting he'd put some sweetsleep in Sansa's drink so they can fuck in his marriage bed. He thinks Symon is dangerous? Shae is the greedy, dangerous one with dreams of becoming a princess. More and more, Shae basically wants Tyrion to out her as his mistress and show the world he fucks her instead of Sansa. As a servant in the castle she can talk to anyone of the personnel who sniggers at Tyrion. And of course, Varys is the second candidate who has the easiest means to have it known. 

Only when he's in his cell, does he realize that Varys isn't "his friend" anymore. But Varys hasn't been a friend for a long time. He just jingled the Shae-key to distract and pacify Tyrion for months, and otherwise remained mum about anything. The guy has the Rugen identity and access to the black cells in disguise. Unlike with Ned, we never get such a visit. No, Varys very much stays away, and uses every convo he ever had with Tyrion to get him condemned on his trial. Is Shae the nail in his coffin? Or is it Varys who verifies every account? Sure, he saves Tyrion, after Jaime put a sword to this throat, the sole person left, aside from Tywin, whose acquaintance with Varys goes back as far as Aerys II.

Ok, so he figures out JonCon and Aegon, but he's still fooled by Lemore and Haldon when it comes to figuring them out. He knows Lemore has a secret, but as long as she swims naked in the river, he thinks to himself she can keep her secret. Only when she wears something else to go into Selhorys does he think "Hmmm, maybe her secret matters?" And not ever does he even wonder, "Hmmm, this Haldon knows a lot of history, languages, cyvasse, math, as good as any maester I've ever had, so why the hell is he only a halfmaester?" Instead, he only thinks of Haldon in terms of competition to outsmart on cyvasse and historical knowledge.

Anyway, overall he just is so easily distracted, and uncommitted. Speaking of a "coin flip". That is what he does in the Crossroads Inn, right before recognizing Cat and getting himself kidnapped into an unexpected adventure - throw up a coin (flip a coin). He throws several coins all at once in the brothel of Selhorys, right before Jorah kidnaps him to go on another unexpected adventure. Spilling wine gets him to be ordered to go to KL as Hand. Spilling wine gets him accused of murder. Spilling wine on a carpet in Selhorys gets kidnapped by Jorah. Whores, wine and gold coins are his vices and throw him into one unexpected misadventure after another.  

Went back and read some of your other stuff very interesting I must say. I think you have Tyrion's personality down pretty well. As to shae..... I'm a guy if a beautiful girl (not woman) like shae, I reread descriptions and imagine she was very beautiful, I could just see why Tyrion made the choice to keep her close, happy (money), and pleased (sexually) even if the latter wasn't true I couldn't think of Shae leading Tyrion to believe otherwise even his looks. And Tyrion did ask her to not be with any men while something like "under his services" (I'm not approving that) it just leads to my next point of Tyrion's blood boiling about the tall knight flirting with shae when she is in stokeworths service 

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On 2017-07-01 at 1:14 PM, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Went back and read some of your other stuff very interesting I must say. I think you have Tyrion's personality down pretty well. As to shae..... I'm a guy if a beautiful girl (not woman) like shae, I reread descriptions and imagine she was very beautiful, I could just see why Tyrion made the choice to keep her close, happy (money), and pleased (sexually) even if the latter wasn't true I couldn't think of Shae leading Tyrion to believe otherwise even his looks. And Tyrion did ask her to not be with any men while something like "under his services" (I'm not approving that) it just leads to my next point of Tyrion's blood boiling about the tall knight flirting with shae when she is in stokeworths service 

I think Tyrions whoring comes mainly from a great need for affection (the odd bro-hug from Jaime isnt enough) and secondary from need of a mother-figure and companionship. Sex is totally not the point (the dude takes care of that himself often enough :stillsick:) only he doesn't realise, maybe?

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I have so many mixed feelings about what happened with Tysha.  If Tyrion was forced by his father to rape Tysha, it also makes it his sexual assault as well, though not equal to what Tysha suffered.  I hold Tywin responsible (and Jaime to a degree) for this rather than an already severely abused 13 year old.  There's no doubt Tywin could pull strings to simply have the marriage annulled.  What he forced on Tysha and what he forced Tyrion to do was just excessively cruel for no reason other than to obliterate in Tyrion's mind that anyone could really love him.  Jaime loved Tyrion, so Tywin makes sure to poison that relationship too.  Tyrion does think of himself as "helping" to rape Tysha in his recollections, but this also is a society that doesn't really have a concept of men being victims of rape if they were doing the penetrating (see what Lysa did to Petyr while he was drunk).  How else could Tyrion define what happened and his role if it seems impossible a man could be considered "forced" if he has an erection?  This idea is something even modern, real world people have struggled to grasp and yet we do know unwilling men can be forced to have an erection and be raped even if they are doing the penetrating.  So if he could actually perform the act, Tyrion might then conclude that he must have been "helping" and some part of him must have been willing.  But that is also part of the shame that Tywin would make him party to this and therefore see himself as partly responsible for his own and Tysha's sexual assault.        

Still Tyrion as an adult does have responsibility over his how he views women.  Shae is certainly no winner, but she was showing him exactly who she is the whole time.  He asked for the girlfriend experience and that's what she delivered on.  So in that sense, she never misrepresents what this relationship is.  If we look at this as somehow trying to reconcile what happened with Tysha, Shae could not be a worse person to do so.  Perhaps Tyrion feels this time he has the upper hand because he knows Shae is a prostitute in advance, but mixed in with this fantasy is that he saves her from that life and she is in love with him truly.  He believes he is protecting Shae by keeping her hidden from his father, something he couldn't do with Tysha.  That looming danger of Tywin I think helps to augment the fantasy.  Obviously, the truth is the exact opposite.  Shae doesn't need protecting because she's going to wind up testifying against Tyrion and place herself in Tywin's bed.  

Shae also reflects some pretty callous attitudes towards women who have been raped, something that should hit close to home for Tyrion.  She has no empathy for Lollys Stokeworth and treats her trauma like it's stupid and embarrassing.  And Tyrion certainly takes no note of this and is more focused on the fact that Shae spoke to Symon.

Quote

"Shae, gods be damned, stop that. Listen to me. You have to go away. The city's full of Tyrells just now, and I am closely watched. You don't understand the dangers."
"Can I come to the king's wedding feast? Lollys won't go. I told her no one's like to rape her in the king's own throne room, but she's so stupid." When Shae rolled off, his cock slid out of her with a soft wet sound. "Symon says there's to be a singers' tourney, and tumblers, even a fools' joust."
Tyrion had almost forgotten about Shae's thrice-damned singer. "How is it you spoke to Symon?"

Tyrion has had his history with Lollys Stokeworth as Lady Tanda pursued him as a match for her daughter.  I don't really care so much that Tyrion didn't want to marry Lollys, but every time she is brought up Tyrion defines her by her intellectual disability.  That can't be ignored that he is very dismissive of another disabled person who just has a different disability than himself.  Like Tysha, Lollys is extremely vulnerable, trusting, and has no means of protecting herself.  The relationship with Tysha started with her being threatened by a group of men where Tyrion gave her comfort as Jaime drove them off.  While Shae is more openly nasty about Lollys, Tyrion doesn't express any empathy at all either in his thoughts or words about what happened to Lollys.  Her rape is merely another obstacle to Lady Tanda finding a husband for her.  Even with Sansa almost suffering the same fate in the riot, Tyrion was thinking in terms of what it would mean for Jaime's fate if Sansa was killed.  Let's also keep in mind he doesn't think highly of Sansa's intelligence either and she's the one plotting an escape right under his nose.  In practice, Tyrion and Shae's attitudes towards vulnerable women and rape aren't really that dissimilar.   

I have to agree that Tyrion does believe it's acceptable to rape a prostitute.  He's using that as his defense in his apology to Tysha in his head: 

Quote

I carry mine own sorrows with me, everywhere I go. He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? I want to go back to our cottage, to the way it was when we were man and wife.

 

 

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The thing w/ what happened w/ Tysha is that regardless of how much abuse and coercion Tyrion suffered, he was still able to do it. No, I don't mean psychologically able, but rather physiologically able to "perform" in that situation. That suggests to me that his psychological scars came afterwards, and that at the time he was probably more angry than anything. 

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I don't blame Jaime for what happened to Tysha, although I think he does, based on the fact that she comes to his mind a few different times in ACOK and ASOS while he's in captivity, and because he confesses the truth to Tyrion at probably the least appropriate time imaginable. But Jaime's a very complex character (which I suspect is why so many readers love him) and the defense mechanisms he uses forces us to have to make more inferences about him than we do with other characters. 

Just like how Jaime turned a blind eye to Cersei and Tyrion's dark sides, I think he did the same with Tywin. He likely told Tywin about Tyrion's marriage out of sense of family loyalty, but I think he was being honest when he insisted that he never knew Tywin would do what he did to Tysha. It doesn't sound like Jaime was present for Tysha's rape either, so he probably found out about it after the fact. In some respects, I think he kept that secret for so long because he didn't want to cause Tyrion any more pain, but I think there was also a great deal of shame as well. 

Tysha's assault is one of the many examples that shows just how much of a monster Tywin truly was, as well as his elitism and disdain for women. A common girl had the gall to think she could marry a Lannister, and Tywin responded by having her gang-raped to "put her in her place." 

I agree that there is something also very unsettling about the fact that Tyrion only started to feel real guilt for what happened to Tysha after he found out she wasn't a prostitute. Tyrion inherited many of his father's better traits, but this also could suggest that he inherited some of the more unsavory aspects of Tywin as well.

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On 2017-06-30 at 3:55 PM, HaeSuse said:

Can Polls be done, here? I've got a better way to split who likes him and who doesn't, and from this thread, it's painfully obvious.

Europeans vs americans? :rolleyes:

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