jon's possiblities

[Graydon Hicks]

i was wondering, in the event that the circumstances of canon didnt happen, and i mean that ned didnt go south and die, robb didnt go to war, and jon was left with options other than going to the wall to get away from catelyn's dislike, what might jon have done with his life?

i was thinking ned might be willing to have him squire under a knight or lord he trusted, til jon could be knighted in his own right. or he could have decided to take ship and go to essos and be sellsword, or ned might even renovate an old ruin somwhere, and let jon begin his own life outside winterfell. what do yall think?

[TMIFairy]

Jon indeed has all those posibilities you mention but his "wonderful" father - or uncle if you prefer - somehow was not supportive of options other than Nights Watch.

14 year old kid wants to go to the wall? Yeah, kid, it's that way.

IMO for Jon to make something other of his life than"shield of the realms of man" he would have to run away from home - Ned does not care or simply wishes to get rid of him. IMO Ned was washing his hands of caring for Jon.

I will PM you something on the subject.

[Graydon Hicks]

well, its just that in the books, jon's mind is already set on going to the NW. i dont think ned says anything in full support of the idea until after he accepts the position as hand of the king. he knows how catelyn views jon, and i guess he might have thought that if he wasnt going to be in winterfell to help look out for the boy, and knowing that cat was quite likely to throw jon out as soon as ned was beyond the horizon, then he didnt have all that much choice but to let jon go to the wall, where he would be far away from the prying eyes of the southerners who just might recognize rhaegar's chin or eye brows or something in jon, and do a double take, and where he should be under the protective eye of benjen, of course, that last bit didnt work out to well. but i think given the events going on, then this might have seemed the best way to protect jon from those who would want him dead, on a personal level, while ned wasnt there to protect him.

but im just asking, or wondering, how if ned didnt go south, was present to keep cat's malice at bay, then maybe he would have thought twice about sending a possible legit heir to the iron throne off to freeze his nuts off on the wall, and might have come up with a way to provide for his future.

im just thinking this, cause i did read a couple of fics where jon ends up squiring for someone instead of going to the wall. bad shit still happened, but it made me think, and i know that squiring a highborn bastard was often done in the south, allowing the bastards to establish their own lives outside of being dependent on the parent, and and waiting for the sibs to die off and be able to inherent. letting them go and be squires got them out of the way for a few years, and  when they were knights, then they were more likely to find "gainful employment" somewhere.

[TMIFairy]

I have no favourite here - squire, man-at-arms/sellsword - be it in Westeros or Essos, or getting a manor from Ned and starting a masterly House of his own, all are realistic and good options for the boy.

 

[Graydon Hicks]

and with the good nature of the relationship of jon and robb, robb would easily seek to keep jon close, much like king torren kept his own bastard brother in close council. cat wouldnt like it, but once robb became lord, then it would no longer be her decision to make.

[devilish]

Ned should have asked Robert to legitimise him. Cat wouldn't like it but there again she hardly can dictate what her husband does in his own house. As Jon Stark, Walder Frey would have loved to see him marry to a Frey. That would stick one to Hoster who keeps insulting him while securing his position against a possibly vindictive LP. Ned, on the other hand, would secure a friend in Walder who will guarantee quick/safe passage to the South just in case the North needs it. 

If Ned wish not to see Cat sulking, then there's various roles Jon could take. He could have used his influence to have him appointed as a member of the KG for example. 

[Graydon Hicks]

or even send him to squire for a southern lord ned might think suitable, like the royces, or the tarlys. and by integrating jon with south, letting him rise to knighthood, he might be able to make friends amongst the younger lords, like garlan and willas, which would have meant a lot as a foundation for if jon decides to push his claim, if he ever found out he had one. and if experienced with the southern nobles gifted jon with more awareness of the Game, then he would all the more valuable to robb as an advisor.

[Roswell]

3 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i was wondering, in the event that the circumstances of canon didnt happen, and i mean that ned didnt go south and die, robb didnt go to war, and jon was left with options other than going to the wall to get away from catelyn's dislike, what might jon have done with his life?

i was thinking ned might be willing to have him squire under a knight or lord he trusted, til jon could be knighted in his own right. or he could have decided to take ship and go to essos and be sellsword, or ned might even renovate an old ruin somwhere, and let jon begin his own life outside winterfell. what do yall think?

He can serve Robb.  I don't think Jon is particularly smart so he won't be good at administration.  He can do alright to replace Ser Rodrik. 

[devilish]

45 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

or even send him to squire for a southern lord ned might think suitable, like the royces, or the tarlys. and by integrating jon with south, letting him rise to knighthood, he might be able to make friends amongst the younger lords, like garlan and willas, which would have meant a lot as a foundation for if jon decides to push his claim, if he ever found out he had one. and if experienced with the southern nobles gifted jon with more awareness of the Game, then he would all the more valuable to robb as an advisor.

I don't think Ned ever wanted Jon to know about his claim. He loved his beloved Robert too much to do so. All he did was to satisfy his conscience by doing what is expected out of a honourable Northman that he is. He kept him well fed and trained in Winterfell while turning a blind eye to the way his adorable wife treated him. No wonder why those who might have known the truth (Benjen and Reed) No wonder why, by the time of GOT, those who probably knew the truth about Jon Snow (Benjen and Reed) had stayed far away from Winterfell as possible. 

[devilish]

10 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

He can serve Robb.  I don't think Jon is particularly smart so he won't be good at administration.  He can do alright to replace Ser Rodrik. 

Lord had complete control over its household lives. They can treat them like guest or even like kings and they can kick them out penniless and make their life miserable on a moment's notice. Robb was a decent man but he's also half Tully and his mummy hated Jon. She's also the future Lord Tully's sister, Lord Arryn aunt and the future queen's mother. Would Robb risk pissing his mother and half Westeros nobility off by keeping Jon in Winterfell? That's tough to say.

The most realistic of options was to secure a place for Jon in the KG. In that way Ned would secure the boy's future without pissing Cat too much. Robert owes Ned everything so he would be likely to accept. Also KL for can be quite lonely for a Northerner and having Jon around would have helped Sansa a great deal.

 

 

[Graydon Hicks]

what about the possibility of granting jon a holdfast somewhere in the the north? there should likely be plenty of ruined small keeps that can be rebuilt and made livable. isnt that what ned had in mind originally for bran?

[Roswell]

7 minutes ago, devilish said:

Lord had complete control over its household lives. They can treat them like guest or even like kings and they can kick them out penniless and make their life miserable on a moment's notice. Robb was a decent man but he's also half Tully and his mummy hated Jon. She's also the future Lord Tully's sister, Lord Arryn aunt and the future queen's mother. Would Robb risk pissing his mother and half Westeros nobility off by keeping Jon in Winterfell? That's tough to say.

The most realistic of options was to secure a place for Jon in the KG. In that way Ned would secure the boy's future without pissing Cat too much. Robert owes Ned everything so he would be likely to accept. Also KL for can be quite lonely for a Northerner and having Jon around would have helped Sansa a great deal.

 

 

Given that the KG went from highly-skilled knights in the days of the Targaryen to the political appointees of Robert's, Jon could possibly make it if Ned pulled enough strings.  I still do not think that is a good fit for Jon.  Jon himself admitted he has a lot in common with Mance Rayder.  Jon will have trouble keeping his oaths and would not make a good KG.  The realm and the monarch he has taken an oath to protect would not be well served with Jon in a KG uniform.  

[devilish]

1 minute ago, Graydon Hicks said:

what about the possibility of granting jon a holdfast somewhere in the the north? there should likely be plenty of ruined small keeps that can be rebuilt and made livable. isnt that what ned had in mind originally for bran?

That's what normal Lords would do. They would make their illegitimate children financially independent just in case their half brothers and their mother decide to make life difficult for them. There again, Ned is not quite a normal guy. His high sense of 'honour' makes it impossible for Ned to give Jon something he didn't deserved or he hasn't yet earned. Cat would have also gone bonkers about it and she certainly would hit Ned were it hurts with 'the boy did nothing to deserve it' thing.

Honestly, I cant understand why Ned didn't trusted Cat. That would have spared Jon a lot of grief. Cat is a bit cuckoo at times but she understands the concept of doing crazy stuff for family (After all she married her promised husband's brother) and she geniunely loves her family enough not to risk their lives. Having Jon Blackfyre around during the war of 5 kings would have helped the Northern cause a great deal. Robb would have had someone to put on the IT who can understand the North traditions. 

[devilish]

6 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

Given that the KG went from highly-skilled knights in the days of the Targaryen to the political appointees of Robert's, Jon could possibly make it if Ned pulled enough strings.  I still do not think that is a good fit for Jon.  Jon himself admitted he has a lot in common with Mance Rayder.  Jon will have trouble keeping his oaths and would not make a good KG.  The realm and the monarch he has taken an oath to protect would not be well served with Jon in a KG uniform.  

Jon Snow starting going out of track when he was ordered by a living legend ( Qhorin ) to do so. If Jon Snow had Selmy as tutor then rest assured than he would have remained as straight as an arrow as most Starks are. That of course, unless, the next king is the mad king v2. If Joffrey hurts Sansa then there's a big chance that we'll have a kingslayer V2

[Graydon Hicks]

2 minutes ago, devilish said:

That's what normal Lords would do. They would make their illegitimate children financially independent just in case their half brothers and their mother decide to make life difficult for them. There again, Ned is not quite a normal guy. His high sense of 'honour' makes it impossible for Ned to give Jon something he didn't deserved or he hasn't yet earned. Cat would have also gone bonkers about it and she certainly would hit Ned were it hurts with 'the boy did nothing to deserve it' thing.

Honestly, I cant understand why Ned didn't trusted Cat. That would have spared Jon a lot of grief. Cat is a bit cuckoo at times but she understands the concept of doing crazy stuff for family (After all she married her promised husband's brother) and she geniunely loves her family enough not to risk their lives. Having Jon Blackfyre around during the war of 5 kings would have helped the Northern cause a great deal. Robb would have had someone to put on the IT who can understand the North traditions. 

well, when they married, its was an arranged and last minute thing. she was supposed to married elder brother brandon, remember, and i believe that most of the time of that bretrothal, ned was in the vale with arryn and robert, so he never really got to know cat until they actually got married. then they only spent a very short amount of time together, long enough for her to get pregnant at least, but then he had head back into war, so maybe a month at the most? if that? then the very next time he sees her, he's carrying this strange baby, that he claims as his own. he simply did not know her enough to trust her with the knowledge that he's caring the last living son of rhaegar targaryen, a baby with a price on its head from both tywin and robert, if either of them ever found out. he just couldnt risk her saying anything to anybody, even in innocent accident, cause robert, maybe, and tywin, certainly, would march on winterfell to kill ned and his whole family for harboring "dragonspawn".

and by the time he could trust her with that knowledge, the keeping of the secret was so ingrained that even thinking about sharing it with anyone, giving out the knowledge that might compromise jon's safety, likely gave him irrational spasms of fear. it had become habit to keep that secret close, and habits are far harder to break than mere laws.

[Graydon Hicks]

11 minutes ago, devilish said:

Jon Snow starting going out of track when he was ordered by a living legend ( Qhorin ) to do so. If Jon Snow had Selmy as tutor then rest assured than he would have remained as straight as an arrow as most Starks are. That of course, unless, the next king is the mad king v2. If Joffrey hurts Sansa then there's a big chance that we'll have a kingslayer V2

i think there is an inherent weakness int he KG oath. all too often, its starts off with true knights under a good king, but turns into a gang of thugs under someone corrupt or cruel, the way it did under robert and joffrey. if i had been the one to write those vows, i would have stressed that the Kg are KNIGHTS first, sworn to the realm, BODYGUARDS second, sworn to protect the royal family. under most circumstances, the king and the realm are one, and whats good for one is good for the other. sure, it would need some contingencies for dealling with a bad king, like there should have been for aerys, like taking the concern to the hand and lord commander of the KG, or something.

[devilish]

19 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

well, when they married, its was an arranged and last minute thing. she was supposed to married elder brother brandon, remember, and i believe that most of the time of that bretrothal, ned was in the vale with arryn and robert, so he never really got to know cat until they actually got married. then they only spent a very short amount of time together, long enough for her to get pregnant at least, but then he had head back into war, so maybe a month at the most? if that? then the very next time he sees her, he's carrying this strange baby, that he claims as his own. he simply did not know her enough to trust her with the knowledge that he's caring the last living son of rhaegar targaryen, a baby with a price on its head from both tywin and robert, if either of them ever found out. he just couldnt risk her saying anything to anybody, even in innocent accident, cause robert, maybe, and tywin, certainly, would march on winterfell to kill ned and his whole family for harboring "dragonspawn".

and by the time he could trust her with that knowledge, the keeping of the secret was so ingrained that even thinking about sharing it with anyone, giving out the knowledge that might compromise jon's safety, likely gave him irrational spasms of fear. it had become habit to keep that secret close, and habits are far harder to break than mere laws.

No one is saying that he should have told her immediately. For all we know, Reed could have kept him for a couple of months until Ned was sure that Cat is not crazy enough to put the North and the Riverlands into trouble just to share some gossip. But once the dust cleared then why not tell Cat the truth? This secret hurt both Jon and Cat and in the future it would hurt Robb's chances of winning as well.

Also why was Ned so scared about Robert? Do you really think that the oaf would turn against the very people who put him on the IT and are set to keep him there just to kill an innocent baby? If he did so then the the North would be outraged by such request that they would force the Starks into war. The Riverlands would join the fray same as the Vale (Jon had already shown that he's willing to start a rebellion just to protect innocent people) and probably the GC (who just love a Blackfyre). Targ Loyalists like the Reach and Dorne might consider joining the fray too especially if some sort of deal can be made between the North and the exiled Targs. Would Robert risk all that just to kill Lyanna's baby?

 

[devilish]

5 minutes ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i think there is an inherent weakness int he KG oath. all too often, its starts off with true knights under a good king, but turns into a gang of thugs under someone corrupt or cruel, the way it did under robert and joffrey. if i had been the one to write those vows, i would have stressed that the Kg are KNIGHTS first, sworn to the realm, BODYGUARDS second, sworn to protect the royal family. under most circumstances, the king and the realm are one, and whats good for one is good for the other. sure, it would need some contingencies for dealling with a bad king, like there should have been for aerys, like taking the concern to the hand and lord commander of the KG, or something.

That's risky mate. You'll risk ending up with a Pretorian guard part 2. In reality the KG shouldn't even exist. The king should appoint a group of body guards who are loyal to him and whose are in a condition to protect him. No more elderly people, queen brothers or maimed knights.  

[Graydon Hicks]

1 minute ago, devilish said:

No one is saying that he should have told her immediately. For all we know, Reed could have kept him for a couple of months until Ned was sure that Cat is not crazy enough to put the North and the Riverlands into trouble just to share some gossip. But once the dust cleared then why not tell Cat the truth? This secret hurt both Jon and Cat and in the future it would hurt Robb's chances of winning as well.

Also why was Ned so scared about Robert? Do you really think that the oaf would turn against the very people who put him on the IT and are set to keep him there just to kill an innocent baby? If he did so then the the North would be outraged by such request forcing the North to war. The Riverlands would join the fray same as the Vale (Jon had already shown that he's willing to start a rebellion just to protect innocent people) and probably the GC (who just love a Blackfyre). Targ Loyalists like the Reach and Dorne might consider joining the fray too especially if some sort of deal can be made between the North and the exiled Targs. Would Robert risk all that just to kill Lyanna's baby?

 

i have the impression that ned might have been more afraid of tywin over this than robert. robert's reaction might have been a toss up. he might have let the boy, its lyanna son, and her had cared so deeply for her. but its also rhaegar's son, dragonspawn, and that legendary baratheon temper would have made robert very dangerous if he went the "Its dragonspawn!" route. and ned just couldnt risk it, not with a new wife, and both a newborn son and newborn nephew to care for.

tywin though, im sure as the hell that he would have had jon killed in a heart beat, he was the one who ordered the deaths of elia and jon's elder siblings. he did it in cold blood, not vengeful fury the way robert might have, and im not so sure robert would have killed them if it had been him faced with that decision. but tywin, who i bet already suspected that lyanna would have either been dead, or "damaged goods" and thus not fit to serve as roberts queen, was likely already planning on pushing cersie on robert, and killed elia and the children to remove any rivals against his future grandchildren for the throne. if he knew whose child jon really was, ned would be facing armed invasion from still fresh westerland forces.

and i have said earlier, that keeping the secret, his promise to lyanna, for so long, that it became a habit. i bet there may have several times he came close to telling the truth, and then he just couldnt say the words, that promise ringing in the back of his head, stopping him dead, and then he thinks, maybe another time, there always time later.

[Graydon Hicks]

16 minutes ago, devilish said:

That's risky mate. You'll risk ending up with a Pretorian guard part 2. In reality the KG shouldn't even exist. The king should appoint a group of body guards who are loyal to him and whose are in a condition to protect him. No more elderly people, queen brothers or maimed knights.  

well the KG began with Aegon 1, at visenya's suggestion. i believe someone tried to get at him, and it was visenya that stopped the attack. he questioned why he should ahve dedicated bodyguards, or something, and she went on to kick the ass of the guards he did have, to drive the point he need a dedicate, elite guard force. its in the world book, i just dont remember the passage very well.