Bowen Marsh was right to remove Jon from office.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

All wrong, because it was Mel who sent Mance not Jon.

No offense Adam, but you're wrong.  Jon had the final say.  Mellisandre gave Jon the idea but it was Jon's decision.  Mellisandre didn't order Edd Tollett to find the spear wives.  That was on Jon's orders.  Mellisandre helped in the planning but it was Jon who ordered Mance to bring back his sister.

[JonSnow4President]

I'm a big Jon lover, but denying he acted against at least the spirit of his Night's Watch vows cheapens the dilemma he found himself in.  In GRRM fashion, he had to choose between 2 conflicting desires (his family/his duty).  While I think he made the right choice, it is blatantly involving himself (and thus the Watch, as he is its most senior officer) in the affairs of the realm, directly planning to kidnap the wife of the reigning Lord Paramount of the North. So from the perspective of a law abiding Watchmen, Jon deserves to be executed.  

But really, do we want a story where Jon is always 100% morally in the right (or whoever your favorite character is).  That moral complexity is one of the defining traits that I think made many of us fall in love with the series.

[kissdbyfire]

11 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm a big Jon lover, but denying he acted against at least the spirit of his Night's Watch vows cheapens the dilemma he found himself in.  In GRRM fashion, he had to choose between 2 conflicting desires (his family/his duty).  While I think he made the right choice, it is blatantly involving himself (and thus the Watch, as he is its most senior officer) in the affairs of the realm, directly planning to kidnap the wife of the reigning Lord Paramount of the North. So from the perspective of a law abiding Watchmen, Jon deserves to be executed.  

But really, do we want a story where Jon is always 100% morally in the right (or whoever your favorite character is).  That moral complexity is one of the defining traits that I think made many of us fall in love with the series.

There was no plan to kidnap anyone, tough. The plan was for Mance and the spearwives to go find "Arya" - and not Fat Walda, who is the wife of the Warden of the North - somewhere near Long Lake. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

39 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There was no plan to kidnap anyone, tough. The plan was for Mance and the spearwives to go find "Arya" - and not Fat Walda, who is the wife of the Warden of the North - somewhere near Long Lake. 

And after Arya is found.  What then?  Jon was not going to return her to the Boltons.  The only difference between getting Arya on the road and getting her from the castle is the issue of guest rights.  Jon is guilty of treason even if you remove the breaking of guest rights from his offenses.

[The Knight of Flours]

1 minute ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

And after Arya is found.  What then?  

Since I'm just re-reading these chapters, he thinks about sending her across the Narrow Sea possibly to be a ward of some respectable family.  Though he wonders about the finances.  Anyway, all hypothetical since it's not Arya.

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

And after Arya is found.  What then?  Jon was not going to return her to the Boltons.  The only difference between getting Arya on the road and getting her from the castle is the issue of guest rights.  Jon is guilty of treason even if you remove the breaking of guest rights from his offenses.

I honestly don't give a flying fuck if it is treason or not. The only thing that matters to me is that it was the right thing to do. You don't leave a stranger to be raped and tortured at the hands of a mad sadistic psycho, let alone someone you love. 

And the same applies to the rescue mission. While people like Selyse and Marsh say, "let them die" (and be reborn into Red Rahloo's light), it's again the right decision both strategically - less wights to join the army of the dead - but more importantly, it's the humane decision. 

And I'm not super duper happy that you're kind of ruining Casablanca for me!

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

Arya is absolutely a murderer for killing Dareon. She is a child, has been given no authority by anybody, and is in Braavos to boot.  If Westeros law doesn't apply North of the Wall, it sure as hell has no application in Braavos.  If Ned Stark himself had seen a deserter on a visit to Braavos, he would have been unable to do anything about it.

I don't understand why people keep saying this. Can anyone give me a reference to any real medieval law or passage in the books to support this? 

Normally, an outlaw can be killed by anyone, anywhere, for any reason. That is the definition of outlaws. They are not protected by the law. At least that's how medieval law works. Does Braavos have some kind of anmesty for outlaws? 

Medieval law is a protective institution. That is to say, one of its main functions is to define who is a subject and what rights they have. First and most basic among these is the right not to be killed. But that doesn't apply to non-subjects (ie. foreigners), except in cases where the states have an agreement to honour other states' laws. But when a state has withdrawn their protection from someone, making them an outlaw, that person has NO protection. 

So Arya kiling an outlaw might be breaking the Sea Lord's peace or some such violation. But it ain't murder. Legally speaking. Morally? Yeah, it's murder -- with some justification, as the guy was a pretty evil pedophile. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

And after Arya is found.  What then?  

Then she could chose what she wanted to do. 

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I honestly don't give a flying fuck if it is treason or not. The only thing that matters to me is that it was the right thing to do. You don't leave a stranger to be raped and tortured at the hands of a mad sadistic psycho, let alone someone you love. 

And the same applies to the rescue mission. While people like Selyse and Marsh say, "let them die" (and be reborn into Red Rahloo's light), it's again the right decision both strategically - less wights to join the army of the dead - but more importantly, it's the humane decision. 

THIS! No one cares if it was treason which isn't if we start nitpicking, the oath says nothing about saving people North and South of the Wall, rescuing Arya and the Free Folk was the right thing to do. 

[Shi Qiang]

5 hours ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Then she could chose what she wanted to do. 

THIS! No one cares if it was treason which isn't if we start nitpicking, the oath says nothing about saving people North and South of the Wall, rescuing Arya and the Free Folk was the right thing to do. 

A lot of people care that it's treason.  Jon put himself into a situation where Bowen had to kill him for the good of the watch.

"For the Watch"

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Allardyce said:

A lot of people care that it's treason.  Jon put himself into a situation where Bowen had to kill him for the good of the watch.

"For the Watch"

Bollocks. Marsh is an idiot and a coward, on top of being a prejudiced prick. He's the guy who wanted to seal all the gates and hide and cower atop the Wall after all. He's the guy who wanted to get Slynt elected because he wants to please Tywin, and that alone is proof that he's not concerned w/ the NW but with saving his own sorry arse and sucking up to whoever is on the IT.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

A lot of people care that it's treason.  Jon put himself into a situation where Bowen had to kill him for the good of the watch.

"For the Watch"

Hater's yada yada yada.  Platitudinous and boring *yawning*

At the end of the day Jon will come back and Bowen with his men will not. The only thing that Bowen and his men could hope for is a quick death.

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

A lot of people care that it's treason.  Jon put himself into a situation where Bowen had to kill him for the good of the watch.

"For the Watch"

Slynt is way more dishonorable than anyone currently in the watch. You seem to forget the shit he was pulling while still in KL and taking half his "brothers" salary, not to mention possibly being a Littlefinger plant. Where is the hate for him? 

The Watch serves the realms of men, and that includes little girls lost in the woods at the beginning of a long winter during an upcoming war. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Bollocks. Marsh is an idiot and a coward, on top of being a prejudiced prick. He's the guy who wanted to seal all the gates and hide and cower atop the Wall after all. He's the guy who wanted to get Slynt elected because he wants to please Tywin, and that alone is proof that he's not concerned w/ the NW but with saving his own sorry arse and sucking up to whoever is on the IT.

Also at the end of the day it was Jon’s strategy that saved Bowen and his men and not the coward Slynt or Bowen himself.

 Other than that what really matters is for someone to be a good person. Especially when being a good person endangers himself and it is not easy. Jon made that choice and that is why he is the closest character that ASOIAF has to a true hero.

Just a question, doesn’t Bowen broke the Guest Right when he attacked Jon under Jon’s roof?

[Shi Qiang]

1 minute ago, The Doctor's Consort said:

Hater's yada yada yada.  Platitudinous and boring *yawning*

At the end of the day Jon will come back and Bowen with his men will not. The only thing that Bowen and his men could hope for is a quick death.

And a good afternoon to you too! 

I am afraid for Bowen Marsh.  You may be right.  Bowen's loyalty and devotion to duty will not be remembered though he deserves a medal for executing Jon.  Death from a wildling's rusty knife might be the thanks that poor Bowen will get. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Doctor's Consort said:

Also at the end of the day it was Jon’s strategy that saved Bowen and his men and not the coward Slynt or Bowen himself.

 Other than that what really matters is for someone to be a good person. Especially when being a good person endangers himself and it is not easy. Jon made that choice and that is why he is the closest character that ASOIAF has to a true hero.

Just a question, doesn’t Bowen broke the Guest Right when he attacked Jon under Jon’s roof?

Interesting, I hadn't thought about that angle! 

And yes, Marsh is not concerned w/ anything other than himself. Anyone who can defend the idea of letting innocents die w/o even an attempt at saving them being made is a huge arsehole in my book. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

21 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

And a good afternoon to you too! 

Ιf you want to use irony at least use it to someone who cares. I don't care.

21 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

I am afraid for Bowen Marsh.  You may be right.  Bowen's loyalty and devotion to duty will not be remembered though he deserves a medal for executing Jon.  Death from a wildling's rusty knife might be the thanks that poor Bowen will get. 

If the Free Folk kill him and his men then he is lucky. Now if Ghost get involved on the other hand...

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Interesting, I hadn't thought about that angle! 

The Wall belongs to the Lord Commander and Bowen *killed* him, so he broke the guest right. We all know what happens when someone breaks the guest right at the Wall. 

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And yes, Marsh is not concerned w/ anything other than himself. Anyone who can defend the idea of letting innocents die w/o even an attempt at saving them being made is a huge arsehole in my book. 

Bowen and his slimy friends never cared about the others and that will end with their deaths. But it seems around here that trying to protect your sister is treason but killing children is just a lesson. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Doctor's Consort said:

Ιf you want to use irony at least use it to someone who cares. I don't care.

If the Free Folk kill him and his men then he is lucky. Now if Ghost get involved on the other hand...

The Wall belongs to the Lord Commander and Bowen *killed* him, so he broke the guest right. We all know what happens when someone breaks the guest right at the Wall. 

Bowen and his slimy friends never cared about the others and that will end with their deaths.

But I don't want Ghost to have indigestion, so I'm good w/ Wun Wun pulling their limbs out one by one or Tormund giving them what they deserve. Tough I've a feeling Leathers will be very much involved. 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Allardyce said:

A lot of people care that it's treason.  Jon put himself into a situation where Bowen had to kill him for the good of the watch.

"For the Watch"

The gods disagree with you. Because Jon will be reborn. Certainly not in something ordinary human. Half a god I expect. GRRM would have just wounded him if it was to expose Marsh treason and the NW disintegration. Marsh will die. Marsh will be remembered, if in anything, as the traitor and destroyer of the NW.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But I don't want Ghost to have indigestion, so I'm good w/ Wun Wun pulling their limbs out one by one or Tormund giving them what they deserve. Tough I've a feeling Leathers will be very much involved. 

I would like that. But I would like to see Ghost in action too  However even it would be anticlimactic but I kind of hope that Jon wil be the one to kill them.

13 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The gods disagree with you. Because Jon will be reborn. Certainly not in something ordinary human. Half a god I expect.

That would be awesome! Just imagine the epic reactions of Dany's fans here!

14 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Marsh will be remembered, if in anything, as the traitor and destroyer of the NW.

Agree.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If the theory about Roose being in league or even related to the Others in some way is true then Jon going after his son Ramsay is in line with his vows. He'd be protecting the realms of men from a monster with creepy eyes. Sounds like what he signed up for.