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The Unholy Consult Post-Release SPOILER THREAD


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28 minutes ago, Kalbear said:
Spoiler

I have no idea why Nau-Cayuti - and later Kellhus/Kelmomas - would be what triggers the No-God in working. At first I thought it was Seswatha's blood, but that would mean that both Nau-Cayuti AND the bastard son of Celmomas (the survivor at Ishual) came from Seswatha, and the latter seems incredibly implausible. For a while I toyed with the idea that Seswatha is actually of Ark as well, as are all Dunyain, but that doesn't seem to fly. 

 

 

 

Spoiler

I'm thinking that the mix of man and non-man blood in the Anasurimbor bloodline might create a situation where there are actually two souls within the same body. If one of them is killed together with the body the other might ensoul the No-god... or something like that...

 

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17 minutes ago, Galbrod said:

I'm thinking that the mix of man and non-man blood in the Anasurimbor bloodline might create a situation where there are actually two souls within the same body. If one of them is killed together with the body the other might ensoul the No-god... or something like that...

 

Except that doesn't explain Nau-Cayuti. That's the part I don't get. It's implied that Nau-Cayuti's lineage is important and that him being Seswatha's son matters - but then it doesn't make sense why Celmomas' actual lineage matters later. 

And hey, freedom from mandatory spoiler tags woo

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Thanks for your input, Kal:

Spoiler

I think the biggest issue overall is the ambiguity for me which is being mistaken for the ending. I honestly would be fine with the utterly horrifying, dark ending of everyone still being damned and the No-God walking and all hope lost. It's fitting for the series and I thought it was extremely well written. My issues stem more for the ambiguity of issues before that ending - the reveals made in the climax that were either less than satisfying or really not clarified at all. Leaving it with the world having ended and pretty much no hope left? I'm down. But lack of clarification on things like character roles and satisfying climaxes - that's the issue I have. Mimara and Cnaiur really doing not much of anything, for example, has more to do I feel with the ambiguity/darkness of the ending and more to do with unsatisfactory writing. Which is a shame, as again so much of the book was wonderfully written and kept me enraptured, only to leave me unsatisfied. 

On the Consult, while the fact that the Inchori were basically weapon races makes sense, it still feels counter to how much they were built up. Even Kellhus in TTT notes the terrifying will and intellect and power even filtered through the Synthese. I feel like these guys have been around ten thousand plus years and managed the First Apocalypse on their now just fine, so making them dumbass tools of the Dunyain feels like a failure of build up. And nothing I think is gonna make me less pissed about Shauriatis. I don't know why I expected so much from him but between 'The False Sun' and his scene in 'TGO', I feel there was so much wasted potential with that character.

On the last bit:

Spoiler

I found the cannibal sequence, like much of the book, a mixed bag. It worked on a certain level for me, as it was truly horrifying and really did accomplish what I suspect was part of the goal - rendering a true lack of hope. The level of atrocity worked in that regard, making everything feel like it had subsumed to Hell itself and wondering what possible redemption or salvation there could be. I was especially horrified by what happened to Proyas, and in the regard of effecting me emotionally, in ways I did not think I could still be hurt or horrified, it did something.

But I think it went on certainly way too long and the payoff I found in the above could have been seen better I think with less degradations. Bakker runs this weird gauntlet of being able to still horrify like no other and yet pushing it so far that you kinda wanna just give up and go 'yeah everything sucks, burn the world.'  

Also, on that note, and because I feel like it hasn't been discussed enough haha:

Spoiler

Holy hell what happened to Proyas disturbed me. I was prepared for other horrifying things like Akka being damned or whatever but really Proyas has to have had the worst fate of any character in history. It's like Bakker took this mostly decent man (relative to Earwa) who was defined by his noble belief and punished him for it in every possible way. Stripped of all belief and broken, raped by his Prophet, forced to turn to cannibalism and rape and murder, blamed of it, destine to forever be remembered as a Consult traitor, before being dragged down into eternal torture. Like, jesus. For some reason I thought Proyas might be one of the few characters who'd get a semi-decent ending. Wow was I wrong. 

 

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11 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

Thanks for your input, Kal:

I think the biggest issue overall is the ambiguity for me which is being mistaken for the ending. I honestly would be fine with the utterly horrifying, dark ending of everyone still being damned and the No-God walking and all hope lost. It's fitting for the series and I thought it was extremely well written. My issues stem more for the ambiguity of issues before that ending - the reveals made in the climax that were either less than satisfying or really not clarified at all. Leaving it with the world having ended and pretty much no hope left? I'm down. But lack of clarification on things like character roles and satisfying climaxes - that's the issue I have. Mimara and Cnaiur really doing not much of anything, for example, has more to do I feel with the ambiguity/darkness of the ending and more to do with unsatisfactory writing. Which is a shame, as again so much of the book was wonderfully written and kept me enraptured, only to leave me unsatisfied.  

Yep, agreed. Mimara especially was bad, as a lot of the payoff many of us (including myself) hinged on Mimara getting some real meat at the end. And not only did she not do the Judging Eye to any real effect, she ended up missing most of the plot entirely while having a baby, while Akka and Esmi tended to her. This was a bad ending for all three of them and really hammered home how irrelevant their entire plot throughout the series was. If you excised Mimara and Akka from the story, do you miss anything? As far as I can tell the only thing that they added to the ending was giving Serwa Qirri.

But as you (I think) said, Mimara was simply not satisfactory writing. It wasn't ambiguous, it was simply not a great choice. Whereas what happened with Kellhus, why Kelmomas was known to the DunSult, what was Ajokli's role, what was the actual DunSult plan, what was Kellhus actual plan - this stuff is stuff  that we really should have not had up in the air at this point. We should know whether or not Kelmomas was actually part of Kellhus' plan all along. 

11 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

On the Consult, while the fact that the Inchori were basically weapon races makes sense, it still feels counter to how much they were built up. Even Kellhus in TTT notes the terrifying will and intellect and power even filtered through the Synthese. I feel like these guys have been around ten thousand plus years and managed the First Apocalypse on their now just fine, so making them dumbass tools of the Dunyain feels like a failure of build up. And nothing I think is gonna make me less pissed about Shauriatis. I don't know why I expected so much from him but between 'The False Sun' and his scene in 'TGO', I feel there was so much wasted potential with that character.
 

Shae not doing anything but dying offscreen is pretty weak. 

11 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

On the last bit:

I found the cannibal sequence, like much of the book, a mixed bag. It worked on a certain level for me, as it was truly horrifying and really did accomplish what I suspect was part of the goal - rendering a true lack of hope. The level of atrocity worked in that regard, making everything feel like it had subsumed to Hell itself and wondering what possible redemption or salvation there could be. I was especially horrified by what happened to Proyas, and in the regard of effecting me emotionally, in ways I did not think I could still be hurt or horrified, it did something.

But I think it went on certainly way too long and the payoff I found in the above could have been seen better I think with less degradations. Bakker runs this weird gauntlet of being able to still horrify like no other and yet pushing it so far that you kinda wanna just give up and go 'yeah everything sucks, burn the world.'

I think it happening was fine, but I also think that if you cut out the descriptions entirely and simply catch up with Proyas when he talks with Akka or Serwa and Sorweel and we find out through their conversations what happened, it becomes far more effective as a horror. And if you look at the structure, that is what it looks like it was set up to do as well - you follow Serwa and Sorweel and he talks to Zsorongas, and then Kellhus returns and does the judgment, and then Akka returns and tries to free him - all of that works fine if we aren't actually direct witness to the horrors. Instead, we get the horrors and the horrors and the horrors and it just kind of drags on and stops being shocking.

11 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

Also, on that note, and because I feel like it hasn't been discussed enough haha:

Holy hell what happened to Proyas disturbed me. I was prepared for other horrifying things like Akka being damned or whatever but really Proyas has to have had the worst fate of any character in history. It's like Bakker took this mostly decent man (relative to Earwa) who was defined by his noble belief and punished him for it in every possible way. Stripped of all belief and broken, raped by his Prophet, forced to turn to cannibalism and rape and murder, blamed of it, destine to forever be remembered as a Consult traitor, before being dragged down into eternal torture. Like, jesus. For some reason I thought Proyas might be one of the few characters who'd get a semi-decent ending. Wow was I wrong. 

And he didn't even get freed by Akka - he was just unceremoniously snuffed out by Moenghus. I don't have the depth of sympathy for Proyas that I do other characters, but that's my failing. He really had a horrible time, set up for the worst possible things and then used as a scapegoat. Proyas represents to me the narrative goal of indicating once and for all that Kellhus is not a good guy in any way - Mimara seeing how damned the Ordeal was emphasized this also. 

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I don't feel bad for Proyas.  He's a guy that has, since he was born, been a devout, holier-than-thou-believer. 

 

He blindly follows whatever he more or less randomly deems most holy.  See Akka's lesson to him in Ajencian doubt.  

 

I know all men are powerless before Kellhus but fuck Proyas.  He's a good character but he's also just this rich dude that goes to war because he thinks he's doing holy work.  He's not really different than Cnaiur, he just gets all super-emo about it. 

 

Other than that, I had the same issues with the book. Thought the writing was great but that there were too many loose ends and things that were genuinely presented as important that were just not addressed.  

 

I liked seeing the Inchies revealed as space janitors.  Shae was the real power there the entire time, and I think Aurang was lost without him.  

 

No clue as to what the Kelmomas / Nau-Cauyuti connection is, although I think Kelmomas being the No-God was pretty well foreshadowed.  

 

Was disappointed overall in pretty much every single character arc.  Basically, everyone just died suddenly or hung around to witness the end times.  I mean, the whole 'shitastic world with no agency for anyone' is fine and can work but it felt like all character development was just abandoned in favor of MRA dragon, cannibal rape, and sranc galore. 

I really think that TTT's lean efficiency as an end to the first series, which so effortlessly wove the plot, characters, and Earwan mystery elements into a really perfect conclusion set up a level of expectation that was difficult to match in TAE.  

So many questions.  I give Bakker a lot of credit for finishing the thing, and still think TSA is about the best work in the genre.  But the last two books were also a disappointment-- a lot of that is my own expectations, but I think it's fair to say that they were rushed.  

The strongest elements of TAE, in my opinion, were Akka and Mim on the slog, Ishterebinth, and the slow reveal of Earwan lore (including the Head on a Pole stuff).  And it all kind of feels like a waste.  

 

Looking forward to a reread of TGO and TUC because I'm sure I missed a lot but, damn, I think Bakker really missed an opportunity to stick the landing and deliver something truly special.

 

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I read the book last night, courtesy amazon.fr.  I read very quickly and was happy, but not thrilled with the quality of the book. 

To summarize, Kellhus & Serwa are dead. Kayutus, I presume lives? As do Akka, Mim, Esmi and possibly Saccareens, as the so-called leaders of humanity. Crab-hand lives as well, somewhere.  Moenghus lives as the Scylvendi King of Tribes.  

The Great Ordeal has failed.  The No-God walks.  The Dunyain have replaced the Consult.  Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli, and planned to turn Earwa into hell, because it was the shortest path.  

It remains unclear to me what he achieved by making this deal, except presumably the power to confront the Dunsult. I also didn't understand the scenes in which Kakioli is talking.  Who is he talking to? 

In terms of the future, presumably with the Second Apocalypse, the question is whether or not the Heron Spear is still hidden, and can be deployed against the No God once more.  Also, now that Ajokli knows about the existence of the No-God, can he or the Hundred do anything to prevent the Second Apocalypse?

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Visited British Amazonia for the book.  Finished it.

 

Captive Dunyain having subsumed the Consult was contemplated at one point, way back in like a TJE thread. 

Mimara not seeing Kellhus with TJE wasn't a big deal - whether or not he was damned was irrelevant because of the bargain he struck with Ajokli.

I do wonder about the mechanics of an Anasurimbor being the fuel of the No-God. Why them in particular?  Moreover, Kellhus isn't Nau-cayuti's lineal descendant, right? Age-wise Ganrelka had to be his brother.  AND Nau-Cayuti was Seswatha's son, so not even related except for having the same mother as Ganrelka i.e. it's not the Anasurimbor DNA.. it's whoever that particular wife of Celmomas' was?  Unless Kelmomas was Nau-Cayuti's father, which isn't impossible.

Sorweel felt useless.

Biggest question is what's the deal with Li'l Kel.   The fact that none of the gods can see him is clearly untrue - Ajokli has interacted with him.  So either Ajokli was just trolling Kellhus (entirely possible... because that's his divine portfolio) or Li'l Kel was somehow the agent of The God the entire time.  The God wasn't totally sleeping - The God is the No-God or the No-God is an entirely physical way, as opposed to metaphysical, of manifesting the God in reality.  The souls that encounter him pass no further because the No-God short-circuits the cycle-of-souls by bringing the lode-stone of souls into reality.

Felt bad for Aurax when he learned Aurang died.  They've been together for thousands of years.

The Consult proper turned out be hilariously ineffective.  Their Quya all died the opening minute.  Aurang, for all his TERRIBLE AND MIGHTY internal dialogue, gets whooped quick.  Mekeritig gets afk force-choked.  And Shae died off-screen years ago.  What happened to the rest of the Mangaecca (its Non-man patron is mentioned briefly when he dies in the first minute)?   Surely Shae wasn't the only human sorcerer in the Consult, was he?

 

Cannibal-rapist shit lasted too long.  I got it, they're all Sranc now, who cares.  Why a third of the book was wasted with it, I don't know.

 

Still don't know whence came Akka's dreams or its mutations.

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I was actually pretty impressed with Shae for being dead.  Like, 5 Dunyain hard at work, and this dude manages to die fighting instead of being enslaved.

My take on Kellhus's thing with Ajokli was that it was literally a bargain.  Kellhus and the 4 horned bro switch as necessary, Kellhus is present when the Nonmen check for substitution, Ajokli is present to defeat the Dunyain by calling on Hell.  I think it was Kellhus who was there at the end, and hence Kellhus who died by Chorae.

As far as the Heron spear goes, I think it is probably long lost.  Akka is going to have to seek the spear that was used in this battle, that Kellhus dropped when Aurang pounced on him.

Inchoroi being uberSrance was one that I'd actually guessed.  It totally makes sense that they were a weapon race.  Team Rapist isn't gonna build the Ark, or anything else.  I bet the Dunyain didn't have much difficulty taking them over, Shae was their only real obstacle.

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3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah most of those teasers Bakkerfans put up made zero sense.

Certainly not the 'you will find out the how Akka has been misled'. Not a single bit, and they even teased at getting into it only to cut away. So weird. 

Since I've not seen a lot of talk about positive things yet, I'll make a stab at it:

  • Kelmomas being the No-God was a cool reveal that made sense to me, though how he got to that point didn't. 
  • Esmi and Mimara's reunion was nice.
  • Sorweel's turn into the WLW and the resolution of that was awesome and my second-favorite part of the book. The tension there was great, and much more compelling than the original WLW stuff. 
  • The imagery of the Golden Horn collapsing and of the sea of Sranc coming in was really cool.
  • Kellhus/Ajokli was a very cool reveal that also made a lot of sense and wound up a whole lot of things, and I didn't see coming at all. 
    5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

    To summarize, Kellhus & Serwa are dead. Kayutus, I presume lives? As do Akka, Mim, Esmi and possibly Saccareens, as the so-called leaders of humanity. Crab-hand lives as well, somewhere.  Moenghus lives as the Scylvendi King of Tribes.  

    I don't think Kayutus lives - he was right there, carrying Serwa's body out at the end. Akka took Mimara and Esmi away as fast as he could. I don't see how Saccarees lives either unless he fled and abandoned the rest of the sorcerers fighting against the Whirlwind. Most everyone in the Great Ordeal is wiped out, IMO. 

    5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

    The Great Ordeal has failed.  The No-God walks.  The Dunyain have replaced the Consult.  Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli, and planned to turn Earwa into hell, because it was the shortest path.  

    Yeah, I'm still confused about Kellhus' plan. Was it to turn Earwa into hell, or was it to rule over hell and ensure that everyone had at least a somewhat cushy afterlife?

    5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

    It remains unclear to me what he achieved by making this deal, except presumably the power to confront the Dunsult. I also didn't understand the scenes in which Kakioli is talking.  Who is he talking to? 

    Iyokus, I believe.

    5 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

    In terms of the future, presumably with the Second Apocalypse, the question is whether or not the Heron Spear is still hidden, and can be deployed against the No God once more.  Also, now that Ajokli knows about the existence of the No-God, can he or the Hundred do anything to prevent the Second Apocalypse?

    Because the carapace doesn't have chorae, it (at least for now) is vulnerable to sorcery.
    Also, Ajokli always knew about the No-God and is why it allied with Kellhus in the first place. The problem is that gods can't interface with others particularly well anyway, and when they do manifest they are spread thin at other times. Ajokli manifesting like he did probably means he can't do a whole lot for a while. 

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So what do the halos represent? Did they have something to do with Ajokli - which would imply he's been possessed/in cahoots with Ajoki since the circumfix? On one hand, learning the Daimos with Iyokus and the bit in the appendix implies he doesn't strike that bargain until later. But if that's the case, who is the figure/voice that speaks to Kellhus and what are the halos, if not Ajokli? 

And also, is nobody else on board with being team Dunsult at this point? Like, it's painted as a terrible ending but all things considered, it seems the most humane option. The alternatives are stopping it and continuing the Damnation machine, which is far worse than any horror that could be visited upon a soul in the mortal realm. Or Kellhus/Ajokli ruling in a Hell on earth which seems even more horrific then the No-God, with the added horror of damnation still being a thing. 

This kind of leads me to one of my main issues with the overarching series. The primary motivation of most of our characters is to stop the Apocalypse/Consult because of how horrible they are in the mortal realm. But when such detail is painted in regards to how utterly horrible and beyond anything comprehensible Damnation is, why do we root for continued existence/saving the world when it simply means a few short years of life in the mortal realm followed by indescribable and never-ending torment on a scale far worse than the Consult? 

Does anyone have a stab at exactly what the No-God is? I'm rereading these sections now to try to get a better grasp upon it. The Dunsult mention a code in all things that is made clearer/brighter with every death. After that i'm still kind of lost. 

I really think the success of this as a book is wholly dependent on a follow up series. If it is simply meant to be act 2 of a three part series and there will be a follow up, then I'm mostly happy with the book (Consult disappointments aside). A lot of my issues would be hopefully alleviated in a third series, such as Mimara's role, potentially Cnaiur's, and lots of answered questions presumably being answered. The issue is that we're still not clear if this is meant to be a build up to a third series - it exists, but we don't know if we'll ever get it and considering Bakker was fine with this being the ending, it leaves me worried. 

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1 hour ago, WalterX said:

My take on Kellhus's thing with Ajokli was that it was literally a bargain.  Kellhus and the 4 horned bro switch as necessary, Kellhus is present when the Nonmen check for substitution, Ajokli is present to defeat the Dunyain by calling on Hell.  I think it was Kellhus who was there at the end, and hence Kellhus who died by Chorae.

.

But why does the most powerful metagnostic sorcerer in the world need aid from Hell? Kellhus could have used the Schools to destroy/fight the Skinspies/Dunyain, and then strolled in.  I guess I just don't understand what the power-up here is. 

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Agreed with all the positives Kal posted. I have seemed pretty harsh on the book, but only because of my deep obsession with this series which results in disappointment. Especially Kelmomas and Ajokli/Kellhus - these were honestly things that made sense and I didn't seem coming at all, which is a hell of a feat considering I went through every thread of Bakker in the past like five years combing through theories. 

In addition, I'd say:

It happened a little too late for me, but Akka becoming Seswatha and being a beacon of light and hope in the final moments was long awaited and pretty damn cool. I wish he'd done more in the climax, especially in regards to the Consult, but it was still cool.

The battles were great, some of Bakker's best. Serwa's dragon dance, the arrival of Ishterininth (though not seeing Oinuras was odd), the appearance of the laser gun, Kellhus's brief tangle with Aurang (including Aurang dropping a cliff on him), the collapse of one horn, the sea imagery of the second Horde, Serwa saving Akka and co (she really was MVP this book), all very cool. The final chapter, including Cnaiur walking into the No-God, was extremely epic and wonderfully written, even if parts were still too ambiguous. 

I was happy with the arcs of Serwa, Sorweel, Proyas, and strangely Moenghus (didn't expect to give a shit about him). I was mostly happy with Akka's save I wanted him to do more in the climax. Same with Esmi. I enjoyed their reunion. Proyas was incredibly depressing but I thought it was a beautifully written arc and ending despite its horror. 

Many things happened in ways I never expected, but made sense and that was an enjoyable surprise. Mainly the structure, with everyone meeting up way earlier than I thought. Kellhus/Akka/Proyas/Esmi/Mimara/Sorweel/etc. I figured it wouldn't all happen until close to the very end so to see it happen way earlier and much different circumstances was very cool.

Finally, the build up of dread and tension with Golgoterath sitting there when the Ordeal arrives was amazing. I kept waiting, like them, for something to happen and every time it sat there silent and seemingly abandoned built up the mystery and dread. Shame the payoff of the Consult was weak - this is a time where Bakker's build up of something was too effective, rendering the actual reveals disappointing. 

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11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because the carapace doesn't have chorae, it (at least for now) is vulnerable to sorcery.
Also, Ajokli always knew about the No-God and is why it allied with Kellhus in the first place. The problem is that gods can't interface with others particularly well anyway, and when they do manifest they are spread thin at other times. Ajokli manifesting like he did probably means he can't do a whole lot for a while. 

 Interesting. That makes a lot of sense, and would mean that Mommas, Yatwer, Ajokli are all somewhat limited in their ability to help humanity in the Second Apocalypse.  

In Kalbear's spirit, let me also identify the cool things. I thought the Serwa scenes were epic (although the dragon dialog, not so much). The betrayal of Proyas was genuinely moving, as was the reveal of Akka's kneeling to Kellhus in a scene that made a lot of character sense (and was nicely matter of fact).  

The return of the Nonmen to Min-Uroikas was also a nice detail, and a good Tolkein homage.  I also liked the meeting with Akka and Saccarees, with its nice depiction of jnan.

And I continue to think the Earwan understanding of marriage is a very cool one, including the reveal that Mimara and Akka are married.

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17 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

But why does the most powerful metagnostic sorcerer in the world need aid from Hell? Kellhus could have used the Schools to destroy/fight the Skinspies/Dunyain, and then strolled in.  I guess I just don't understand what the power-up here is. 

I think because he was overmatched by the Dunyain. Even without their interference, the Schools were clearly having their hands full and almost being overcome by the Horde, the Quya, the dragon, etc. Throw in Aurang, Mekertrig, possibly Shauriatis, and now five Dunyain each seemingly equal or close to it to Kellhus himself - they probably would have been overmatched. Kellhus on his own power isn't invulnerable, as we see when he is contested (even briefly) by Meppa. He wasn't a match for the Dunsult on his own and the Schools had their own might to overcome. 

That'd be my guess. It was also, presumably, part of his plan to conquer Hell and enslave it. Ajokli gets the chance to enter the mortal realm and stop the No-God and Kellhus gets his power in the Outside/a chance to conquer or alter Damnation. 

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6 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

But why does the most powerful metagnostic sorcerer in the world need aid from Hell? Kellhus could have used the Schools to destroy/fight the Skinspies/Dunyain, and then strolled in.  I guess I just don't understand what the power-up here is. 

He doesn't need just the power. He needs the goad and the immunity. I'll try and walk you through my interpretation, which isn't necessarily accurate.

  • Kellhus believes that the Dunyain have taken over the Consult. (stated)
  • Kellhus believes that everyone is doomed to suffer in Hell (not stated, but implied)
  • Kellhus believes that the No-God and killing most of humanity is not an acceptable solution to the above point (stated)
  • Kellhus also knows about the Inverse Fire (implied) and what it does to anyone who sees it.

Therefore:

  • Kellhus knows he needs to be protected from the Inverse Fire if he's going to be able to execute his plan, and the only way to do that is to have an active, positive presence in hell that he accepts and wants.
  • Kellhus knows that he needs to have some solution to damnation, and apparently goes for the solution of simply ruling over the damned for all eternity.
  • Kellhus also knows that the Dunyain must accept his solution, or they will oppose him.

Weaknesses of this that make me think this is entirely bullshit:

  • Kellhus knows that at some point the Consult have to re-awaken the No-God, because their viewpoints end. He says this to Proyas. If he knows the No-God must walk this makes no sense at all.
  • The obvious shortest path isn't for Kellhus to subsume the Consult, it's for him to utterly wipe their shit out. Why bother with the theater and the goading them at all? Why not wipe them out like he did the first Dunyain? Why negotiate with them at all? 
  • (this is also true for the DunSult proper; why would they bother trying to convince Kellhus instead of just killing him and using Kelmomas, if they know Kelmomas works just as well? I get that they need to lure in Kellhus to their trap, but I don't get why they'd bother monologuing to him).

For those reasons I think that Kellhus' plan was to get the DunSult to use Kelmomas to resume the No-God. This allows him to set the specific parameters of the Second Apocalypse and presumably do so in a way that it can be used to wipe out Hell in the future. I think that his plan was to also ensure he had fuel aplenty in Hell as some kind of demon in the Outside, and will use that power to stop the rest of the gods. 

I think it's also clear that Mimara's child, the last born child in the world, will be the actual embodiment of the Objective God in some way, and will be key to destroying the No-God while also destroying the splintering of the god into the gods. 

That said, we've gone down this road before with analyzing and re-analyzing the end speech of TTT (especially @lokisnow) and it ended up with zero payoff at all. 

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20 minutes ago, IllusiveMan said:

I was happy with the arcs of Serwa,

This reminds me of one thing that also bugged incredibly - Serwa falling in 'love' with Sorweel. Seriously, how John Hughes fucked up is that? The explanation given was that because he loved her SOOOO MUCH and all she could see was his love, she learned what love was and went with it. 

The everloving hell is that?

The rest of Serwa's story made up for it, somewhat, but was also kind of ruined by having her deal with the worst dialog dragon ever.

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In terms of the future, presumably with the Second Apocalypse, the question is whether or not the Heron Spear is still hidden, and can be deployed against the No God once more.  Also, now that Ajokli knows about the existence of the No-God, can he or the Hundred do anything to prevent the Second Apocalypse?

 

The Scylvendi stole the Heron Spear when they sacked Cenei, which makes me think that Moenghus is now in a key place to find it.

The alternative is that they use the Sun Lance (the other Spear of Light) instead, but it's unclear what happened to it. My interpretation was that Kellhus dropped it, Kayutus picked it up and then lasered the MRA Dragon with it once Serwa distracted it, but to say that part is pretty unclear is a massive understatement.

I thought it'd be interesting to track those who died and didn't:

 

The Earwa Book of the Fallen:

  • Kellhus
  • Proyas
  • Shariautas
  • Aurang
  • Serwa (almost certainly)
  • Cnaiur (again)
  • Cet'ingira
  • Sorweel

 

The Survivors

  • Achamian
  • Esmenet
  • Mimara
  • Kelmomas (as the No-God)
  • The Four Dunyain who now rule the Consult
  • Aurax
  • Malowebi (albeit only as a disembodied head)
  • Moenghus (as the new Chief-of-Tribes of the Scylvendi)
  • The Child of Ishual

 

Unclear

  • Meppa (but probably survived)
  • Kayutas (if he'd died I suspect this would have been made clear)
  • Saccarees (but probably dead)
  • Any named member of the Ordeal who didn't overtly die on-screen is probably dead anyway.
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On 7/4/2017 at 10:44 PM, IllusiveMan said:

Okay, having just finished and wow many questions. Apologies for incoherence, mind racing. 

 

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1. Okay, so when do we think Kellhus got possessed/made the deal with Ajokli? The Circumfix? Is that what happened there? It seemed to me Malowebei noticed the halos or something similar about the Decapitant the same as he noticed around Kellhus. But I read this very fast so dunno. When else did Kellhus make this deal? What happened on the circumflex if not this?

 

3. Why was Kelmomas invisible to the Gods? Got no idea on this one. 

 

 

Spoiler

1. It is extraordinarily clear _now_ that Kellhus made the bargain with Ajokli on the circumfix. Not only is Ajokli responsible for things like "He knew he should be weak unto death, but something inexplicable moved him." which is kellhus' first thought coming of the circumfix: That ANOTHER agency moves his body. "

"And it seemed there was nothing, no dwarfing frame, that could restrict him to this place, to any place … He was all things, and all things were his." Again, this is now clear that Kellhus is experiencing the God possession with Ajokli. the next thing he should see is truly haloed hands.

"Tears roared down his cheeks. With a haloed hand, he reached beneath his breast, firmly wrested the heart from his ribs."

Yup. there are the halos, the halos of the god Ajokli. Also, a god pulls of the HITB trick. Kellhus+Ajokli reached into his own chest and pulled out Serwe's heart. No sorcery, just God stuff.

Finally, Kellhus declares (obliquely) that he is no longer a false prophet (he was, ironically, before the circumfix), but in fact declares that he is in fact the God (saying WE are that anger, meaning he is part of the prince of hate)

"“They said that I was False, that I caused the anger of the God to burn against us!” He looked into their wasted faces, answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwë’s burning heart. “But I say that we— WE!— are that anger!”

Note that in the encounter with Moenghus, Kellhus will again observe the haloes he sees around his hands and he will actually name their source for us, he calls them "The Light of Delusion"  And Ajokli is the Great Deceiver, so in that phrase Kellhus is literally telling the reader that the halos are "The Light of Ajokli". What has happened is that the dunyain are so obsessed with delusion etc, that the reader has been seduced by their own modernity perspective and Kellhus' flattering superior attitude that readers real-world disdain of the supernatural has caused readers for the last decade have been seduced into interpreting "The Light of Delusion" ONLY through the lenses provided by Kellhus in the first book, we adopt his interpretive methods and presume that the Delusion is mental, not a name of a god.

I think "the Light of Delusion" is one of those red flags where Bakker was genuinely baffled that no reader ever saw it.

Mimara also describes Kellhus as Ajokli when she sees him with the judging eye in ishual in the great ordeal (not contemporaneous sight, but she basically describes him with the ajokli descriptor/title 'Immortal Malice on a smoking throne' again. seems like an obvious red flag.

I think the Decaptants entry that describes kellhus swapping heads on the plains of mengedda is when he "discovered the head on the pole behind him" after he learned the daimos from Iyokus (which he details learning the daimos as happening after Shimeh when he monologues to the consult dunyain)

Want more proof that it was on the circumfix that the bargain with Ajokli was struck?

Achamian …” Kellhus whispered. The words winded him, struck him dumb with horror. No … He’s not allowed to speak … “He said you would come.”

Who is "He" ? obviously, now this is Ajokli.

Finally, consider the conversation between Kellhus and Ajokli while on the circumfix, which leads to a vision of the prince of hate, a vision of immortal malice, a vision of the god that reaps worlds a god who fights salvation and would doom all the universe to his endless hunger.  A great deceiver who deceives readers and possibly kellhus by taking the mythic frame of the no god as his charger.

Ajokli: Focus! What happens?

Kellhus: All is in disarray. And they’ve killed her. They’ve murdered my wife.

Ajokli: I gave her to them.

Kellhus: What did you say?

Ajokli: I gave her to them.

Kellhus: Why? Why would you do this?

Ajokli: For you …

Kellhus: For them.

Something dropped within him, and he tumbled into sleep, cold water rinsing bruised and broken skin.  

The figure of a man seated, shoulders crouched like an ape, legs crossed like a priest.

And Kellhus stared at the figure, stared at the tree, but he could not move.

The firmament cycled, as though night after night passed without day.

Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …

WHAT DO YOU SEE?

The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.

TELL ME …

Whole worlds wailed in terror.

 

 for 3. Everyone needs to re-read chapter 6 of TGO. then reread it again. Then reread it again. One hell of a lot is explained and revealed there.

 

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